Toshack

[njdragon]

Nov 15, 2022 8:01:29 GMT aboutaboy said:

I think Toshfan has a point. Johnson also stated that he quit wales because Hughes dropped him for the home game against Russia. I could have sworn he played because I remember slating Hughes with my Dad that he actually picked him for the game and remembering him being completely useless!
A quick check on the starting 11 of that game proves I was right. This guy just fabricated his stories. He was garbage for wales anyway.

Yes I see although I had verified this earlier in the thread that Tosh visited Johnson to ask him to reconsider retirement. That was before I found this

[cymruchris]

Been lurking on and off for last few years so read this thread in full and genuinely surprised with some of the responses....has no one actually read his book?

Have to say it's one of my favourite sports books I've read in last few years, fantastic insight into his spells abroad, not just managing all the great players he did but what it was like to work/live in Istanbul, San Sebastian and Sicily when he briefly managed Catania.

Whether you like or rate the guy or not I'd highly recommend it.

Anyway from the second spell chapter this is what I recall:

He did not rate Savage as a player whatsoever (you could tell that anyway from his punditry during the 2004 qualifiers). Didn't score enough and not enough of a team player. Played Fletcher-Robinson in the Hungary friendly and that was enough for him (think both were prem players at the time).

Wasn't a huge fan of Bellamy either....but decided he needed to be in the team by 51/49% (a tosh-ism if ever there was one!) Memorably summed up his feelings on Bellamy's attitude and influence by saying plenty of managers signed him....and then sold him. Also said none of the decent teams he played for actually won anything while he was there apart from his spell at Celtic.

Gave huge credit to Flynn (chapter pretty much ended with "well done Flynny" so that's high praise coming from Toshack). When they came in all the different age groups had a manager, think Southall was managing one and Ian Rush the other and he felt it was better to have one across all age groups given they were all playing at different times. FAW were lukewarm at that idea but eventually relented and kept the process.

Gave Flynn a blank canvas to go out and find the players. It's alright people saying Bale and Ramsey were there but it would be just same as 80s/90s in having half a team of top flight regulars and the rest pretty average.

Ashley Williams already been covering but he was playing bottom end league 2 at the time for Stockport so certainly wasn't an obvious call up. Flynn was at Reading training ground to catch up with Church and Jake Taylor and basically learnt HRK had a Welsh gran by complete accident. So they should be proud of providing those two for the legendary Belgium game as neither would've turned up just like that (would Williams had been signed by Swansea without any Welsh caps).

Basically blamed injuries for most of his time in second spell. Liked Koumas as a player but he was a regular call off. Said near the end he went to watch Reading play and Church hobbled off as he frequently did and then next day went to watch Sheffield United and Ched Evans did the same. Ramsey of course was out for all of 2010 games due to the broken leg at Stoke so his reign was basically over when that happened. Should not forget Jack Collison aswell, would be like Joe Allen getting endless injuries and never really being a part of the Coleman era. Said Azerbaijan away was his best result purely due to only having 15 players turn up at Reading before they flew out, tallies with one of the documentaries.

Few other things I might remember but that's the gist.

My own general opinion is similar to a really good point made a few pages back, it was neccesary for the Toshack era to happen...but it probably should've been curtailed early 2009 (Finland home) as obvious by then team just didn't have enough about it to qualify and Millenium was about a third full for those games.

He only really had two full qualifying campaigns given he came in halfway through the 2006 qualifiers. Think a pattern of his spell was there were some really good away performances but could never back it up at home so public were never going to be convinced by a plucky 0-0 away to Germany if you can't back that up on home turf.

Can remember some fantastic performances away to Austria and Czech Republic when Bellamy and Giggs missed endless one on ones and then some dodgy keeping and lost to late goal. Losing 5-1 at home to Slovakia which basically killed the 2008 attempt and then with little pressure stuffing them 5-2 a year later another classic example as was the heroic effort in Russia.

Probably should've played some more games at Swansea given Cardiff wasn't ready until summer 2009.

Others interviewed for the job at the time, Flynn, Gerard Houllier and Phillipe Troussier. Actually amazed they didn't just give the job to Houllier if his demands weren't too much as he was still a very good manager in those times. Troussier stock was high after managing Japan but his career soon followed the Tosh path of managing in some exotic parts of the world.

[marsvolta]

Haven’t read his book so didn’t know a lot of that. Interesting.

As a side note, Fletcher wasn’t a Premier league player when first called up.
He was playing for Bournemouth before being signed by, then Championship team, West Ham.
West Ham then unexpectedly got promoted after a late surge to the play offs, which they won so he ended up in the Premiership.
Many West Ham fans suggested that when they signed Fletcher it was for the expected push for promotion the following season, but they obviously got there a year ahead of schedule.

[bale-droed]

I’m still amazed to this day troussier didn’t get it. I can remember a very young version of myself standing outside a kebab shop in the valleys asking each other how Toshack who had just done a shit job with Murcia and Murcia had gotten the job

[cymruchris]

Troussier didn't really do much after Japan. Managed Marseille but quickly got sacked and didn't last long as manager of Morocco either. Then managed some lower Chinese teams and was last in charge of Vietnam under 19s.

Just checked and he was apppointed Marseille manager on 27th November 2004 so you get the feeling he used the Wales interest as bargaining tool. He fell out with the likes of Lizarazu and was sacked end of the season and then spent two months in charge of Morocco.

Considering the FAW wanted a long term appointment after Hughes I don't think he'd have been it as decent as his international record was in those times.

[njdragon]

for me i think this run started with hughes and im glad they highlighted him in together stronger final episode.

It was hughes that brought in the professional set up - i remember reading they were borrowing kit and training grounds before.

Hughes - forces the FAW into the modern era
Tosh - bloods the youngsters while flynn scours the uk for anyone eligible
Speed - brought in togetherness, and team spirit along with sports science (the forgotten man Raymond)
Coleman - got us across the line, together stronger, a real people person
Giggs - saw we needed to shake things up and again blooded the youngsters and got us over the line with a mix of youth and experience (something tosh should have done)
Page - 2 tournaments now - these have been the making of him. He's pulled the squad together and stabilised us and finally a world cup.

Lots of positives since gould, all in all everyone had a part to play.

[conwy10]

Interesting interview with Cotterill on Undr the Cosh on Facebook. Sorry, don't know how to link. Basically players eating Chinese and sneaking out for drinks. Joking about with Roy Evans that some of the players look like they've had a few. The only ones who he said were against it was Ryan Giggs and Craig Bellamy.

[njdragon]

Apr 4, 2023 16:01:16 GMT conwy10 said:

Interesting interview with Cotterill on Undr the Cosh on Facebook. Sorry, don't know how to link. Basically players eating Chinese and sneaking out for drinks. Joking about with Roy Evans that some of the players look like they've had a few. The only ones who he said were against it was Ryan Giggs and Craig Bellamy.

good listen,

the mention of a TNS player.. (must be Steve Evans)

Bellamy telling tosh he didnt want to see him in the side again after misplacing a pass in training

[conwy10]

Apr 4, 2023 17:01:38 GMT njdragon said:

Apr 4, 2023 16:01:16 GMT conwy10 said:

Interesting interview with Cotterill on Undr the Cosh on Facebook. Sorry, don't know how to link. Basically players eating Chinese and sneaking out for drinks. Joking about with Roy Evans that some of the players look like they've had a few. The only ones who he said were against it was Ryan Giggs and Craig Bellamy.

good listen,

the mention of a TNS player.. (must be Steve Evans)

Bellamy telling tosh he didnt want to see him in the side again after misplacing a pass in training

Strange how he said you might not qualify under me but you might under the next manager. Was he sacrificing his reign for the good of others, but if he was why did he let it get so unprofessional? Unless he thought he had to do it in stages.

[bale-droed]

Apr 4, 2023 16:01:16 GMT conwy10 said:

Interesting interview with Cotterill on Undr the Cosh on Facebook. Sorry, don't know how to link. Basically players eating Chinese and sneaking out for drinks. Joking about with Roy Evans that some of the players look like they've had a few. The only ones who he said were against it was Ryan Giggs and Craig Bellamy.

Was interesting listening to the interview And great to hear someone from that time era talking although I Must admit with the fuck word being said every 3 words and the fact I thought Cotterill was lying or hugely fabricating stories to be relevant I started to turn off after they finished talking about Wales. Would love to hear other players say the same to back him up but currently I doubt a lot of it. Can’t see Bellamy tolerating playing with a hungover squad. An example of fabrication would be him saying we had a young tns player in the team that never happened did it? We had a guy who used to play for them. He knew that

[conwy10]

Apr 6, 2023 9:45:10 GMT bale-droed said:

Apr 4, 2023 16:01:16 GMT conwy10 said:

Interesting interview with Cotterill on Undr the Cosh on Facebook. Sorry, don't know how to link. Basically players eating Chinese and sneaking out for drinks. Joking about with Roy Evans that some of the players look like they've had a few. The only ones who he said were against it was Ryan Giggs and Craig Bellamy.

Was interesting listening to the interview And great to hear someone from that time era talking although I Must admit with the fuck word being said every 3 words and the fact I thought Cotterill was lying or hugely fabricating stories to be relevant I started to turn off after they finished talking about Wales. Would love to hear other players say the same to back him up but currently I doubt a lot of it. Can’t see Bellamy tolerating playing with a hungover squad. An example of fabrication would be him saying we had a young tns player in the team that never happened did it? We had a guy who used to play for them. He knew that

I did think that and thought he's clearly got that wrong as far as I'm aware we never had any current TNS players in and of our squads. Could he have been looking down on players at the time though? As a Premier League/Championship player hearing we got a former TNS player in the squad and heres a young lad ive never heard of and connecting the dots himself.

[njdragon]

Apr 6, 2023 9:45:10 GMT bale-droed said:

Apr 4, 2023 16:01:16 GMT conwy10 said:

Interesting interview with Cotterill on Undr the Cosh on Facebook. Sorry, don't know how to link. Basically players eating Chinese and sneaking out for drinks. Joking about with Roy Evans that some of the players look like they've had a few. The only ones who he said were against it was Ryan Giggs and Craig Bellamy.

Was interesting listening to the interview And great to hear someone from that time era talking although I Must admit with the fuck word being said every 3 words and the fact I thought Cotterill was lying or hugely fabricating stories to be relevant I started to turn off after they finished talking about Wales. Would love to hear other players say the same to back him up but currently I doubt a lot of it. Can’t see Bellamy tolerating playing with a hungover squad. An example of fabrication would be him saying we had a young tns player in the team that never happened did it? We had a guy who used to play for them. He knew that

100% cotterill has to be taken with a pinch of salt. Ive seen another episode where they asked him about him ripping off his former team mates (jazz richards being one) He doesn't take an responsibility and his response is always well i got ripped off too.