Toshack

[saints19]

Surprised people are still having the debate about Toshack to be honest. Let's be fair, he'll go down in our history as a pretty decent manager, but nothing more. He could arguably have achieved more with the players at his disposal near the end of his reign. 0 points from Finland in the 2010 campaign for example. Also he probably stayed on a bit too long. However he did launch Bale's career and many others - and had a fantastic club career, the best of any Welsh manager probably.

However with regard to the fallouts, my view is unless Toshack was physically or verbally abusing/bullying the players, then they should have stuck it up and dealt with it, whatever the issue, whether it be criticism, whether it be tactics, whether it be allocation of roles etc. It is your country after all, whatever you think of the manager. We'll never know what went on behind closed doors, but to me it sounds like a lot of these players - Robbie Savage comes to mind - always had a bit of an ego about them (seem to recall Savage doing a media interview years ago bragging about how everyone in his school fancied him), so it's probably not 100% Toshack's fault.

[CrackityJones]

Not sure Tosh launched Bale’s career, probably shouldnt be lauded for capping him and our other current stars either. Most managers would have done the same considering their obvious talents and the dearth of options available.

[toshfan]

Oct 25, 2022 16:20:40 GMT njdragon said:

The first load tosh retired by even taking the job.
Bellamy he fell out with
Gabbidon left because of toshack and came back under speed - coincidence? NO
Davies criticised by tosh - left
Parry- 'One of the players, Paul Parry, cited being made to feel like a "spare part" as the reason for his decision to make himself unavailable for selection'
Collins - “At the time I was playing regularly for my club, but when I came down here I was asked by the manager of my country if I had been playing regularly and in what position, so what would you make of that?"
Koumas- Toshack has already criticised the player for his dispute with West Bromwich Albion which has seen the player fail to train with the Black Country club amid haggling over a possible move to Cardiff
Johson - Toshack asked him to reconsider retirement and he refused

i forgot fletcher - Carl Fletcher both calling it a day after being criticised for their performances

add delaney & hartson to that

surely you can see what went wrong there. If it was 2 or 3 fair enough but to fall out with that many.

The debate is about which retirements Toshack was to blame for and why? Bellamy did not retire.
Of course we will have to agree to disagree but can you evidence that Toshack asked Johnson to come out of retirement. It is something he is adamant he would never do.

[toshfan]

Oct 25, 2022 17:02:32 GMT saints19 said:

Surprised people are still having the debate about Toshack to be honest.

Because there are TV Programmes about him on Monday night. One on BBC Wales at 8:30pm and one at 9pm on S4C. The latter of these was shared by more than one person. That is why the debate has continued.

[mrpicton79]

Oct 25, 2022 15:24:17 GMT marsvolta said:

Don’t really want to get into this discussion but a few points-

Pembridge and Melville should have retired before the campaign started but stayed on for one last crack at qualifying under Hughes. We were dead and buried in the group half way through and Hughes left for Blackburn.

I loved Hughes but he left us with no hope of qualifying,without many youngsters and an ageing squad. Keeping the likes of Pembridge when he was way past his best instead of bringing someone else though was a good example of this.

Separate note, on the subject of Pembridge, he was one of our most underrated players. Great servant. This is no way a criticism of him.

I shouldn't get so involved in such things either but I do find the criticism of Mark Hughes odd.

He didn't abolish the youth teams nor did he leave us in any particular state when he left. He just picked the best players available to him at the time, as all national managers do. Throughout the vast majority of our history we've had little to no hope of qualifying. Do people really think he left the side in worse shape than he inherited it after the Bobby Gould era? Should he have axed all the senior players and started picking teenagers from the age grade sides back in 2002?

[njdragon]

Oct 25, 2022 22:12:30 GMT toshfan said:

Oct 25, 2022 16:20:40 GMT njdragon said:

The first load tosh retired by even taking the job.
Bellamy he fell out with
Gabbidon left because of toshack and came back under speed - coincidence? NO
Davies criticised by tosh - left
Parry- 'One of the players, Paul Parry, cited being made to feel like a "spare part" as the reason for his decision to make himself unavailable for selection'
Collins - “At the time I was playing regularly for my club, but when I came down here I was asked by the manager of my country if I had been playing regularly and in what position, so what would you make of that?"
Koumas- Toshack has already criticised the player for his dispute with West Bromwich Albion which has seen the player fail to train with the Black Country club amid haggling over a possible move to Cardiff
Johson - Toshack asked him to reconsider retirement and he refused

i forgot fletcher - Carl Fletcher both calling it a day after being criticised for their performances

add delaney & hartson to that

surely you can see what went wrong there. If it was 2 or 3 fair enough but to fall out with that many.

The debate is about which retirements Toshack was to blame for and why? Bellamy did not retire.
Of course we will have to agree to disagree but can you evidence that Toshack asked Johnson to come out of retirement. It is something he is adamant he would never do.

add mark crossley

No i can't find the article now but i read it yesterday - he did ask him to come back.

we can argue all day but the fact of the matter is 10/11/12 players didnt retire just on them alone - there was ONE defining fact. TOSH - awful man management. That can't be argued even by you?

Lets give him credit where he deserves it, he took on a tough role. Would we have transitioned to a european style without him, maybe with Phillip Troussier the only other viable option.

He brought in flynn to his credit - did he do just as much damage as he did good? probably yes.

toshack and bellamy
www.theguardian.com/football/2010/mar/02/john-toshack-craig-bellamy-wales

[marsvolta]

Oct 26, 2022 6:00:59 GMT mrpicton79 said:

Oct 25, 2022 15:24:17 GMT marsvolta said:

Don’t really want to get into this discussion but a few points-

Pembridge and Melville should have retired before the campaign started but stayed on for one last crack at qualifying under Hughes. We were dead and buried in the group half way through and Hughes left for Blackburn.

I loved Hughes but he left us with no hope of qualifying,without many youngsters and an ageing squad. Keeping the likes of Pembridge when he was way past his best instead of bringing someone else though was a good example of this.

Separate note, on the subject of Pembridge, he was one of our most underrated players. Great servant. This is no way a criticism of him.

I shouldn't get so involved in such things either but I do find the criticism of Mark Hughes odd.

He didn't abolish the youth teams nor did he leave us in any particular state when he left. He just picked the best players available to him at the time, as all national managers do. Throughout the vast majority of our history we've had little to no hope of qualifying. Do people really think he left the side in worse shape than he inherited it after the Bobby Gould era? Should he have axed all the senior players and started picking teenagers from the age grade sides back in 2002?

Nothing wrong with picking the best players of course,It’s more the fact that he didn’t bring many youngsters into the squad like we do now with the likes of Colwill and Luke Harris.
Players like Kit Symons were were over 30 and unlikely to play but were still selected.
I prefer the current system of getting the youngsters into the squad early.
This means we have more of a pipeline of players coming through as the others got older.Some of the players after Hughes were brought into the squad for the first time aged 23 or 24.
The squad we have now have been in the squad loads of times by the time they get that age and therefore have that much more experience.

I agree though that if he didn’t have the players to bring through then he couldn’t select them.

Nothing to say that Hughes was wrong, it’s just that we’ve had more success the way we do it now.

[saints19]

Oct 25, 2022 17:10:42 GMT CrackityJones said:

Not sure Tosh launched Bale’s career, probably shouldnt be lauded for capping him and our other current stars either. Most managers would have done the same considering their obvious talents and the dearth of options available.

I meant international career. Of course we had few options etc, and I did not in any way mean to overplay Toshack's role. It was purely a factual statement.

[evans1282]

Oct 26, 2022 9:25:26 GMT marsvolta said:

Oct 26, 2022 6:00:59 GMT mrpicton79 said:

I shouldn't get so involved in such things either but I do find the criticism of Mark Hughes odd.

He didn't abolish the youth teams nor did he leave us in any particular state when he left. He just picked the best players available to him at the time, as all national managers do. Throughout the vast majority of our history we've had little to no hope of qualifying. Do people really think he left the side in worse shape than he inherited it after the Bobby Gould era? Should he have axed all the senior players and started picking teenagers from the age grade sides back in 2002?

Nothing wrong with picking the best players of course,It’s more the fact that he didn’t bring many youngsters into the squad like we do now with the likes of Colwill and Luke Harris.
Players like Kit Symons were were over 30 and unlikely to play but were still selected.
I prefer the current system of getting the youngsters into the squad early.
This means we have more of a pipeline of players coming through as the others got older.Some of the players after Hughes were brought into the squad for the first time aged 23 or 24.
The squad we have now have been in the squad loads of times by the time they get that age and therefore have that much more experience.

I agree though that if he didn’t have the players to bring through then he couldn’t select them.

Nothing to say that Hughes was wrong, it’s just that we’ve had more success the way we do it now.

Personally wise he did leave us in a worse state than after Gould,his biggest mistake was appointing a mate from Utd as u21 manager,check the results! Teams crammed with Prem youth players,rather than guys playing mens football at a lower level.

[evans1282]

Oct 26, 2022 10:48:22 GMT evans1282 said:

Oct 26, 2022 9:25:26 GMT marsvolta said:

Nothing wrong with picking the best players of course,It’s more the fact that he didn’t bring many youngsters into the squad like we do now with the likes of Colwill and Luke Harris.
Players like Kit Symons were were over 30 and unlikely to play but were still selected.
I prefer the current system of getting the youngsters into the squad early.
This means we have more of a pipeline of players coming through as the others got older.Some of the players after Hughes were brought into the squad for the first time aged 23 or 24.
The squad we have now have been in the squad loads of times by the time they get that age and therefore have that much more experience.

I agree though that if he didn’t have the players to bring through then he couldn’t select them.

Nothing to say that Hughes was wrong, it’s just that we’ve had more success the way we do it now.

Personally wise he did leave us in a worse state than after Gould,his biggest mistake was appointing a mate from Utd as u21 manager,check the results! Teams crammed with Prem youth players,rather than guys playing mens football at a lower level.

!Should have read personel

[insertname]

Oct 25, 2022 17:02:32 GMT saints19 said:

Surprised people are still having the debate about Toshack to be honest. Let's be fair, he'll go down in our history as a pretty decent manager, but nothing more. He could arguably have achieved more with the players at his disposal near the end of his reign. 0 points from Finland in the 2010 campaign for example. Also he probably stayed on a bit too long. However he did launch Bale's career and many others - and had a fantastic club career, the best of any Welsh manager probably.

However with regard to the fallouts, my view is unless Toshack was physically or verbally abusing/bullying the players, then they should have stuck it up and dealt with it, whatever the issue, whether it be criticism, whether it be tactics, whether it be allocation of roles etc. It is your country after all, whatever you think of the manager. We'll never know what went on behind closed doors, but to me it sounds like a lot of these players - Robbie Savage comes to mind - always had a bit of an ego about them (seem to recall Savage doing a media interview years ago bragging about how everyone in his school fancied him), so it's probably not 100% Toshack's fault.

Savage is the one that is quite clearly Tosh related with no conjecture. Listening to Savage tell it himself there was fault on both sides. The professionalism after Hughes reign was clearly questionable and Savage chose to make fun of it which obviously wouldn’t go down well with an authoritarian figure like Tosh. A very immature way of dealing with it by Savage (which it sounds like he regrets) met with an equally immature way of dealing with it by Tosh, that is if Savage was part of Tosh’s plans which he probably wasn’t. That’s the most egregious part of Tosh’s reign for me. He cut his nose off to spite his face with Savage as Robinson and Fletcher were not better players. You don’t play as long at the top level as Savage did being crap.

So all in all it felt like Toshack made things harder for himself and the country than he had to. In the end, as diabolical as it was at the time having no hope of qualification I guess it eventually worked out for the best and it would be rewriting history to say that Tosh played no part in the decade of success that followed his departure…although the size of his contribution is obviously debatable!

[mrpicton79]

Oct 26, 2022 9:25:26 GMT marsvolta said:

Oct 26, 2022 6:00:59 GMT mrpicton79 said:

I shouldn't get so involved in such things either but I do find the criticism of Mark Hughes odd.

He didn't abolish the youth teams nor did he leave us in any particular state when he left. He just picked the best players available to him at the time, as all national managers do. Throughout the vast majority of our history we've had little to no hope of qualifying. Do people really think he left the side in worse shape than he inherited it after the Bobby Gould era? Should he have axed all the senior players and started picking teenagers from the age grade sides back in 2002?

Nothing wrong with picking the best players of course,It’s more the fact that he didn’t bring many youngsters into the squad like we do now with the likes of Colwill and Luke Harris.
Players like Kit Symons were were over 30 and unlikely to play but were still selected.
I prefer the current system of getting the youngsters into the squad early.
This means we have more of a pipeline of players coming through as the others got older.Some of the players after Hughes were brought into the squad for the first time aged 23 or 24.
The squad we have now have been in the squad loads of times by the time they get that age and therefore have that much more experience.

I agree though that if he didn’t have the players to bring through then he couldn’t select them.

Nothing to say that Hughes was wrong, it’s just that we’ve had more success the way we do it now.

That's the thing. Which younger players at the time should he have had in the squad ahead of the some of the established senior players?

I get the feeling had Tosh taken charge when Hughes did he would have picked exactly the same personnel. Or at least his intention would have been to. Of course he'd have fallen out with a lot of them; dangerous game when you haven't got Bale, Ramsey, Allen et al coming through the ranks.

[mrpicton79]

Oct 26, 2022 10:48:22 GMT evans1282 said:

Oct 26, 2022 9:25:26 GMT marsvolta said:

Nothing wrong with picking the best players of course,It’s more the fact that he didn’t bring many youngsters into the squad like we do now with the likes of Colwill and Luke Harris.
Players like Kit Symons were were over 30 and unlikely to play but were still selected.
I prefer the current system of getting the youngsters into the squad early.
This means we have more of a pipeline of players coming through as the others got older.Some of the players after Hughes were brought into the squad for the first time aged 23 or 24.
The squad we have now have been in the squad loads of times by the time they get that age and therefore have that much more experience.

I agree though that if he didn’t have the players to bring through then he couldn’t select them.

Nothing to say that Hughes was wrong, it’s just that we’ve had more success the way we do it now.

Personally wise he did leave us in a worse state than after Gould,his biggest mistake was appointing a mate from Utd as u21 manager,check the results! Teams crammed with Prem youth players,rather than guys playing mens football at a lower level.

Which players should have been fast-tracked into the senior team under Hughes? We need some names here. If we're talking about League 2/National League players it's doubtful any of them would have gone on to make any impact at international level.

It's circumstance. We happened to have a golden generation coming through around the beginning of Toshack's tenure. I'm sure plenty of other Welsh managers would have welcomed such fortune.

[gwernybwch]

Oct 26, 2022 8:53:04 GMT njdragon said:

Oct 25, 2022 22:12:30 GMT toshfan said:

The debate is about which retirements Toshack was to blame for and why? Bellamy did not retire.
Of course we will have to agree to disagree but can you evidence that Toshack asked Johnson to come out of retirement. It is something he is adamant he would never do.

Lets give him credit where he deserves it, he took on a tough role. Would we have transitioned to a european style without him, maybe with Phillip Troussier the only other viable option.

With the FAW being as it was back then, I think that Tosh was the only person (that the FAW could afford) that had the authority to make structural changes to the association and therefore the style of play. I don't think anybody else could have sold the Basque system to the blazers and continued to get the buy-in from them for a number of years.

[evans1282]

Oct 26, 2022 13:34:09 GMT mrpicton79 said:

Oct 26, 2022 10:48:22 GMT evans1282 said:

Personally wise he did leave us in a worse state than after Gould,his biggest mistake was appointing a mate from Utd as u21 manager,check the results! Teams crammed with Prem youth players,rather than guys playing mens football at a lower level.

Which players should have been fast-tracked into the senior team under Hughes? We need some names here. If we're talking about League 2/National League players it's doubtful any of them would have gone on to make any impact at international level.

It's circumstance. We happened to have a golden generation coming through around the beginning of Toshack's tenure. I'm sure plenty of other Welsh managers would have welcomed such fortune.

I'm still at work so can't go back in time and give you chapter and verse about availability, but I can say it was common among supporters going on away trips and doubling up watching the u21's ( that used to be a thing) watching a bunch of academy kids getting hosed every game under Shoulder,it's actually not so key "who did he miss" it's more he didn't look!

[insertname]

Oct 26, 2022 16:06:30 GMT gwernybwch said:

Oct 26, 2022 8:53:04 GMT njdragon said:

Lets give him credit where he deserves it, he took on a tough role. Would we have transitioned to a european style without him, maybe with Phillip Troussier the only other viable option.

With the FAW being as it was back then, I think that Tosh was the only person (that the FAW could afford) that had the authority to make structural changes to the association and therefore the style of play. I don't think anybody else could have sold the Basque system to the blazers and continued to get the buy-in from them for a number of years.

I’m not sure that the style of play is something we should thank Tosh for. It felt at times like he was trying to over-egg an expensive pudding with cheap ingredients and fell into the trap of having all the possession and none of the goals. I don’t think Speed or Coleman really built on what Tosh had done in terms of the style of play either and the benefit to them was more just the number of caps and experience. Speed had success when he quickened the tempo, which we were crying out for under Tosh and our better performances under Tosh inevitably came on the rare occasions when caution was thrown to the wind and we used Giggs and Bellamys pace such as the game against Austria and the high scoring Slovakia game.

[conwy10]

Oct 26, 2022 18:10:25 GMT insertname said:

Oct 26, 2022 16:06:30 GMT gwernybwch said:

With the FAW being as it was back then, I think that Tosh was the only person (that the FAW could afford) that had the authority to make structural changes to the association and therefore the style of play. I don't think anybody else could have sold the Basque system to the blazers and continued to get the buy-in from them for a number of years.

I’m not sure that the style of play is something we should thank Tosh for. It felt at times like he was trying to over-egg an expensive pudding with cheap ingredients and fell into the trap of having all the possession and none of the goals. I don’t think Speed or Coleman really built on what Tosh had done in terms of the style of play either and the benefit to them was more just the number of caps and experience. Speed had success when he quickened the tempo, which we were crying out for under Tosh and our better performances under Tosh inevitably came on the rare occasions when caution was thrown to the wind and we used Giggs and Bellamys pace such as the game against Austria and the high scoring Slovakia game.

I like Toshack, I think I'm just a Toshack guy who will always credit him with starting the turnaround.

Under Hughes I just got the sense we would just get the best 11 Welsh players and shoe horn everyone in. I always felt we never reached potential with what we had available as we had nearly all Premier League team. When it clicked it worked but I always felt we would quickly become undone and everyone seemed they were fighting their own battle.

With Toshack I felt there was a pathway and a direction. Not everything was perfect but he started a conveyor belt where youth would get a chance in a system.

[njdragon]

Oct 26, 2022 16:23:48 GMT evans1282 said:

Oct 26, 2022 13:34:09 GMT mrpicton79 said:

Which players should have been fast-tracked into the senior team under Hughes? We need some names here. If we're talking about League 2/National League players it's doubtful any of them would have gone on to make any impact at international level.

It's circumstance. We happened to have a golden generation coming through around the beginning of Toshack's tenure. I'm sure plenty of other Welsh managers would have welcomed such fortune.

I'm still at work so can't go back in time and give you chapter and verse about availability, but I can say it was common among supporters going on away trips and doubling up watching the u21's ( that used to be a thing) watching a bunch of academy kids getting hosed every game under Shoulder,it's actually not so key "who did he miss" it's more he didn't look!

Hughes didnt appoint shoulder? He was a leftover from Gould is that right?

[evans1282]

Oct 28, 2022 8:39:46 GMT njdragon said:

Oct 26, 2022 16:23:48 GMT evans1282 said:

I'm still at work so can't go back in time and give you chapter and verse about availability, but I can say it was common among supporters going on away trips and doubling up watching the u21's ( that used to be a thing) watching a bunch of academy kids getting hosed every game under Shoulder,it's actually not so key "who did he miss" it's more he didn't look!

Hughes didnt appoint shoulder? He was a leftover from Gould is that right?

My memory can't confirm or deny that, but appointed, or kept in post after appalling results,pretty much equal.in my eyes.

[adecolley]

Jonny in Tosh camp, in today’s Sunday Times

[mortimero]

Toshack was a terrible manager for Wales, he took us backwards and overstayed his welcome by 2 years. The re-writing of history over the last couple of years is hilarious.

[mrpicton79]

Oct 30, 2022 21:13:08 GMT mortimero said:

Toshack was a terrible manager for Wales, he took us backwards and overstayed his welcome by 2 years. The re-writing of history over the last couple of years is hilarious.

It's amazing what people will contrive when they're passionate about something. Apparently he created the concept of youth football, which never existed pre-Toshack; and was solely responsible for the talented group of players we happened to have coming through at the time. Nothing whatsoever to do with luck or circumstance.

[mortimero]

Oct 31, 2022 6:21:46 GMT mrpicton79 said:

Oct 30, 2022 21:13:08 GMT mortimero said:

Toshack was a terrible manager for Wales, he took us backwards and overstayed his welcome by 2 years. The re-writing of history over the last couple of years is hilarious.

It's amazing what people will contrive when they're passionate about something. Apparently he created the concept of youth football, which never existed pre-Toshack; and was solely responsible for the talented group of players we happened to have coming through at the time. Nothing whatsoever to do with luck or circumstance.

It makes for a better narrative, rather than we saw an increase in professionalism under Speed, then a continuation of that - with the best group of players for years and one absolutely world class match winner - under Coleman.

Toshack playing Lewin Nyatanga 30 times before he turned 21 isnt part of that.

[saints19]

To be fair, I would say "terrible" is selling Toshack short a bit. There were some impressive results, like the 5-2 win in Slovakia, the 0-0 in Germany, 3-0 win against Scotland, a win in Denmark albeit in a friendly. It wasn't all bad. I agree with staying on too long though.

[mrpicton79]

Oct 31, 2022 18:08:02 GMT saints19 said:

To be fair, I would say "terrible" is selling Toshack short a bit. There were some impressive results, like the 5-2 win in Slovakia, the 0-0 in Germany, 3-0 win against Scotland, a win in Denmark albeit in a friendly. It wasn't all bad. I agree with staying on too long though.

I don't think it's selling him short at all. The two competitive results you mention were nice enough but they happened when any hopes of qualifying were long since gone. Friendlies are meaningless. Throughout his whole tenure whenever we had a crunch game to kick-start or save a campaign we shit the bed every single time.

It's just nauseating reading the sort of comments saying he left us in perfect shape to qualify. The first game of the Euro 2012 campaign (his last) was one of the worst performances of the lot. I remember the 0-1 scoreline in Montenegro really flattering us that day. We were as far away from it as we'd ever been.

[conwy10]

Oct 31, 2022 11:30:25 GMT mortimero said:

Oct 31, 2022 6:21:46 GMT mrpicton79 said:

It's amazing what people will contrive when they're passionate about something. Apparently he created the concept of youth football, which never existed pre-Toshack; and was solely responsible for the talented group of players we happened to have coming through at the time. Nothing whatsoever to do with luck or circumstance.

It makes for a better narrative, rather than we saw an increase in professionalism under Speed, then a continuation of that - with the best group of players for years and one absolutely world class match winner - under Coleman.

Toshack playing Lewin Nyatanga 30 times before he turned 21 isnt part of that.

What was the alternative to Nyatanga? Giving Melville more matches at 38? Arsenal were looking at Nyatanga at one point, he had potential. If you were to put a blueprint of a perfect defender together it would be him. He was incredibly raw and just couldn't progress.

Can't blame the guy for the dregs he scraped when the barrel was empty.

[conwy10]

Oct 31, 2022 6:21:46 GMT mrpicton79 said:

Oct 30, 2022 21:13:08 GMT mortimero said:

Toshack was a terrible manager for Wales, he took us backwards and overstayed his welcome by 2 years. The re-writing of history over the last couple of years is hilarious.

It's amazing what people will contrive when they're passionate about something. Apparently he created the concept of youth football, which never existed pre-Toshack; and was solely responsible for the talented group of players we happened to have coming through at the time. Nothing whatsoever to do with luck or circumstance.

He did didn't he? What did Hughes do for youth football? I was young at that point but I seem to remember we had an Under 21's because we had to field a team. Flynn ran it but Toshack was in the main job so must take some credit.

[iot]

Oct 31, 2022 6:21:46 GMT mrpicton79 said:

Oct 30, 2022 21:13:08 GMT mortimero said:

Toshack was a terrible manager for Wales, he took us backwards and overstayed his welcome by 2 years. The re-writing of history over the last couple of years is hilarious.

It's amazing what people will contrive when they're passionate about something. Apparently he created the concept of youth football, which never existed pre-Toshack; and was solely responsible for the talented group of players we happened to have coming through at the time. Nothing whatsoever to do with luck or circumstance.

I'm sorry, but that post is one of the most shocking examples of the straw man fallacy I think I've ever seen:

Straw man fallacy:
A straw man fallacy occurs when someone takes another person’s argument or point, distorts it or exaggerates it in some kind of extreme way, and then attacks the extreme distortion, as if that is really the claim the first person is making.

Everyone, even Toshfan, are saying that many mistakes were made. Most of us are also saying that the setup appears to have been very amateurish. No one is claiming that he 'created the concept of youth football', but what people are saying is that there was a deliberate strategy to play young players over older ones that perhaps were better at the time and would have earned better results. There was a deliberate attempt to widen the playing pool as much as possible, give players experience as young as possible, which have been important factors in giving the squad a collective spirit and experience to achieve what they then achieved. 

We'll never know what the counterfactual is, but it's safe to assume that most other managers would not have had such a long-term vision, and they would have played more experienced players a lot more often, and the young Gunters, Ledleys and Hennesseys, and unproven players like League 1 Ash Williams, a lot less often. As a result, that would have meant a less experienced and potentially less together group going into the euro 16 qualifiers. I think almost all managers would have brought bale and ramsey in straight away like tosh did, but those other players i mentioned who were instrumental to our success latterly, but were no great shakes when tosh was playing them - probably not so much. 

[iot]

Oct 31, 2022 19:54:54 GMT mrpicton79 said:

Oct 31, 2022 18:08:02 GMT saints19 said:

To be fair, I would say "terrible" is selling Toshack short a bit. There were some impressive results, like the 5-2 win in Slovakia, the 0-0 in Germany, 3-0 win against Scotland, a win in Denmark albeit in a friendly. It wasn't all bad. I agree with staying on too long though.

I don't think it's selling him short at all. The two competitive results you mention were nice enough but they happened when any hopes of qualifying were long since gone. Friendlies are meaningless. Throughout his whole tenure whenever we had a crunch game to kick-start or save a campaign we shit the bed every single time.

It's just nauseating reading the sort of comments saying he left us in perfect shape to qualify. The first game of the Euro 2012 campaign (his last) was one of the worst performances of the lot. I remember the 0-1 scoreline in Montenegro really flattering us that day. We were as far away from it as we'd ever been.

That's a silly thing to say about the montenegro game. They were a fairly newly formed team so everyone assumed they would be crap. As it turns out, they came second in the group ahead of Switzerland, getting two draws against England in the process. They were just a better side than us. 

[mrpicton79]

Oct 31, 2022 21:17:29 GMT conwy10 said:

Oct 31, 2022 6:21:46 GMT mrpicton79 said:

It's amazing what people will contrive when they're passionate about something. Apparently he created the concept of youth football, which never existed pre-Toshack; and was solely responsible for the talented group of players we happened to have coming through at the time. Nothing whatsoever to do with luck or circumstance.

He did didn't he? What did Hughes do for youth football? I was young at that point but I seem to remember we had an Under 21's because we had to field a team. Flynn ran it but Toshack was in the main job so must take some credit.

What are the U21's achieving today? Very little unfortunately. Because it would appear we aren't blessed with a talented crop of youngsters all coming through at the same time, like almost every other era of Welsh football. Do we hammer Page and the Welsh setup for that? No, because it wouldn't be logical (although I can see Bodin getting some flak admittedly).

But by all means let's give Flynn credit. Why is there no thread full of praise and adulation for his contribution to Welsh football?