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Post by toshfan on Oct 24, 2022 21:11:57 GMT
Some painful viewing for Toshack Detractors. |
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Post by welshrover on Oct 24, 2022 21:28:21 GMT
Some painful viewing for Toshack Detractors. I'm with you Toshfan, I appreciate the "hard years" that later bore fruit. And dare I say it on here I don't get "The Speed Legacy" thing. Nothing against Gary Speed but I do think the importance of Gary Speed's tenure is overplayed and the importance of both Toshack's and Coleman's tenure are underplayed. I expect some abuse for this post! In fact it was me at Bale's debut against Trinidad and Tobago in Austria that started the old Liverpool "Toshack" chant. Eventually some others joined in but not many!! |
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Post by iot on Oct 24, 2022 21:37:37 GMT
Some painful viewing for Toshack Detractors. I'm with you Toshfan, I appreciate the "hard years" that later bore fruit. And dare I say it on here I don't get "The Speed Legacy" thing. Nothing against Gary Speed but I do think the importance of Gary Speed's tenure is overplayed and the importance of both Toshack's and Coleman's tenure are underplayed. I expect some abuse for this post! I'm somewhere in between. I was a big fan of Tosh and I think he did give a lot of players a lot more experience than they would have had from most managers, and that meant we had a team full of players in their prime by Euro 16 with hundreds of caps in the bank. But, against that, there have been a lot of players from that era coming out now saying that the set-up was just completely amateurish, Tosh didn't prepare them as he should for the games and potentially therefore set us back somewhat in terms of setting professional standards. That's where Speed's impact comes in. Mark Evans was brilliant on EJFOF recently. He's been with the FAW since the 90s and for much of that early period the FAW was a joke. He put the turning point down to Speed - his attention to detail and impact in raising standards. |
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Toshack
Oct 24, 2022 21:43:58 GMT
via mobile
Post by marsvolta on Oct 24, 2022 21:43:58 GMT
I'm with you Toshfan, I appreciate the "hard years" that later bore fruit. And dare I say it on here I don't get "The Speed Legacy" thing. Nothing against Gary Speed but I do think the importance of Gary Speed's tenure is overplayed and the importance of both Toshack's and Coleman's tenure are underplayed. I expect some abuse for this post! I'm somewhere in between. I was a big fan of Tosh and I think he did give a lot of players a lot more experience than they would have had from most managers, and that meant we had a team full of players in their prime by Euro 16 with hundreds of caps in the bank. But, against that, there have been a lot of players from that era coming out now saying that the set-up was just completely amateurish, Tosh didn't prepare them as he should for the games and potentially therefore set us back somewhat in terms of setting professional standards. That's where Speed's impact comes in. Mark Evans was brilliant on EJFOF recently. He's been with the FAW since the 90s and for much of that early period the FAW was a joke. He put the turning point down to Speed - his attention to detail and impact in raising standards. Yeah, that EJFOF with Mark Evans is a great listen. |
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Post by adecolley on Oct 24, 2022 21:51:34 GMT
It was blindingly clear at the time what Toshack was up to. Perhaps some of the players critical of Tosh didn’t have the tools to work out what was going on, and clearly not all were up to scratch. No change there.
Speed was gifted a stellar hand. He lost his first five games with the squad - and some of those featured players who were no great shakes - and then won five as the squads experience and abilities improved.
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Post by toshfan on Oct 24, 2022 22:28:00 GMT
I'm with you Toshfan, I appreciate the "hard years" that later bore fruit. And dare I say it on here I don't get "The Speed Legacy" thing. Nothing against Gary Speed but I do think the importance of Gary Speed's tenure is overplayed and the importance of both Toshack's and Coleman's tenure are underplayed. I expect some abuse for this post! I'm somewhere in between. I was a big fan of Tosh and I think he did give a lot of players a lot more experience than they would have had from most managers, and that meant we had a team full of players in their prime by Euro 16 with hundreds of caps in the bank. But, against that, there have been a lot of players from that era coming out now saying that the set-up was just completely amateurish, Tosh didn't prepare them as he should for the games and potentially therefore set us back somewhat in terms of setting professional standards. That's where Speed's impact comes in. Mark Evans was brilliant on EJFOF recently. He's been with the FAW since the 90s and for much of that early period the FAW was a joke. He put the turning point down to Speed - his attention to detail and impact in raising standards. I’d be interested in listening to Mark Evans, especially as he could not have been more complimentary about Toshack when he spoke with me a few years ago. |
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Post by toshfan on Oct 24, 2022 22:33:07 GMT
I'm with you Toshfan, I appreciate the "hard years" that later bore fruit. And dare I say it on here I don't get "The Speed Legacy" thing. Nothing against Gary Speed but I do think the importance of Gary Speed's tenure is overplayed and the importance of both Toshack's and Coleman's tenure are underplayed. I expect some abuse for this post! In fact it was me at Bale's debut against Trinidad and Tobago in Austria that started the old Liverpool "Toshack" chant. Eventually some others joined in but not many!! Nobody should abuse you. What I loved about the latter half of the Speedo tenure was the intensity, especially the 2-0 win against Switzerland at the Liberty. I also objectively accept that Speedo, Coleman, Giggsy & Pagey had/have the dressing room in the way that Toshack did not. But if success is measured from the difference between inheritance and legacy, the Toshack years are the greatest in my lifetime. I understand many disagree with this view. They will loathe this production and will need to steer clear of S4C next Monday. |
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Post by quetzal on Oct 25, 2022 2:40:31 GMT
Toshack planted the seed with Flynn. Thanks to those guys. They’re more important to Wales getting to the Semi Final of Euro 2016 than Coleman was!
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Post by njdragon on Oct 25, 2022 9:36:23 GMT
always be of the view
Flynn drove the under 21s gave us fans something to look forward to - almost qualifying, beating italy, the games against england with a packed ninian park, all that after what 5 years without a win under shoulder.
During his time we had dire results under toshack, scraping wins against bottom tier sides at the millennium with 15k crowd. It was awful. He fell out with as many players and flynn brought in for him. It was flynn finding these players, williams, playing bale further up. The biggest thing tosh did was bring in flynn.
It was speed that took us to the Cardiff city stadium permanently, brought in modern day training methods. Players came back after tosh had alienated them. He was too old for modern football and passed his prime.
If you want an insight into what a joke times were with tosh listen to the long man podcast with Ashley Williams.
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Post by rangers15 on Oct 25, 2022 10:14:58 GMT
I don't really see the need to be one side or the other when it comes to Toshack. He undoubtedly helped us by blooding so many younger players early... but from reports of the time suggest there were some fundamental flaws with his set-up (like most coaches).
I think we needed all these pieces in place - Toshack/Flynn, Speed, Coleman (and of course a ridiculous talent in Bale) to get to Euros... and then everything clicked into place that summer.
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Post by toshfan on Oct 25, 2022 10:44:46 GMT
always be of the view Flynn drove the under 21s gave us fans something to look forward to - almost qualifying, beating italy, the games against england with a packed ninian park, all that after what 5 years without a win under shoulder. During his time we had dire results under toshack, scraping wins against bottom tier sides at the millennium with 15k crowd. It was awful. He fell out with as many players and flynn brought in for him. It was flynn finding these players, williams, playing bale further up. The biggest thing tosh did was bring in flynn. It was speed that took us to the Cardiff city stadium permanently, brought in modern day training methods. Players came back after tosh had alienated them. He was too old for modern football and passed his prime. If you want an insight into what a joke times were with tosh listen to the long man podcast with Ashley Williams. I realise that we are polar opposites on this debate but you are objective enough to recognise the masterstroke to bring in Flynn and to make him responsible for pretty much everything u21s and below. To say that it was a game changer is an understatement. Their meeting at Verdis in Mumbles ultimately was the day that Welsh Football changed forever. It was Toshack who took us away from the Millennium. As for the claim that Toshack alienated players, very few who make that claim will answer the following questions: 1. Which retirement or loss of a player do you blame Toshack for? 2. In each case what was the impact of the loss of that player? Could you share a link to the podcast with Ashley Williams, please? I have not heard it before. Finally, I wish you well if you watch the programme. From the clip alone, it will be a much harder watch for you than for me  |
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Post by toshfan on Oct 25, 2022 10:46:13 GMT
I don't really see the need to be one side or the other when it comes to Toshack. He undoubtedly helped us by blooding so many younger players early... but from reports of the time suggest there were some fundamental flaws with his set-up (like most coaches). I think we needed all these pieces in place - Toshack/Flynn, Speed, Coleman (and of course a ridiculous talent in Bale) to get to Euros... and then everything clicked into place that summer. I agree with most of that, especially the last sentence. But more importantly than blooding younger players, the even bigger game changer was in changing the way that we played. Toshack inherited a British footballing side. He left a European one. |
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Post by njdragon on Oct 25, 2022 10:56:52 GMT
always be of the view Flynn drove the under 21s gave us fans something to look forward to - almost qualifying, beating italy, the games against england with a packed ninian park, all that after what 5 years without a win under shoulder. During his time we had dire results under toshack, scraping wins against bottom tier sides at the millennium with 15k crowd. It was awful. He fell out with as many players and flynn brought in for him. It was flynn finding these players, williams, playing bale further up. The biggest thing tosh did was bring in flynn. It was speed that took us to the Cardiff city stadium permanently, brought in modern day training methods. Players came back after tosh had alienated them. He was too old for modern football and passed his prime. If you want an insight into what a joke times were with tosh listen to the long man podcast with Ashley Williams. I realise that we are polar opposites on this debate but you are objective enough to recognise the masterstroke to bring in Flynn and to make him responsible for pretty much everything u21s and below. To say that it was a game changer is an understatement. Their meeting at Verdis in Mumbles ultimately was the day that Welsh Football changed forever. It was Toshack who took us away from the Millennium. Im pretty sure it was speed who made it our permanent homeAs for the claim that Toshack alienated players, very few who make that claim will answer the following questions: 1. Which retirement or loss of a player do you blame Toshack for? Gabbidon, simon davies, speed2. In each case what was the impact of the loss of that player? 3 premiership playersCould you share a link to the podcast with Ashley Williams, please? I have not heard it before. Its the longan podcast with Owain tudor jones www.podbean.com/podcast-detail/qvpr6-1f4577/The-Longman’s-Football-World-Podcast-with-Owain-Tudur-JonesFinally, I wish you well if you watch the programme. From the clip alone, it will be a much harder watch for you than for me Not at all, although i won't be looking back through rose tinted spectacles i enjoy everything wales football |
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Post by toshfan on Oct 25, 2022 11:03:22 GMT
It was Toshack who took us away from the Millennium. Im pretty sure it was speed who made it our permanent homeNo, it was Toshack. I realise that it was my error for not including a key bit in the first question. Why do you blame Toshack for each of these? Speedo went before Toshack started. For what it is worth, I do consider the unwillingness to reach out to Speedo to be an error as a player like that would have added major value in terms of what Toshack was looking to do. But that it is not the same as blaming him for the retirement itself. I look forward to you expanding in these 3 examples. The answer to the second question is rather shallow. Savage was a Premiership player. I do blame Toshack for disguarding him but believe that the decision was the right one regardless of the club that the player was with. Thank you. I will listen to it with an open mind. |
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Post by njdragon on Oct 25, 2022 11:17:16 GMT
It was Toshack who took us away from the Millennium. Im pretty sure it was speed who made it our permanent homeNo, it was Toshack. Well we were playing in the millenniumn (2011) after tosh has quit so im not sure thats trueI realise that it was my error for not including a key bit in the first question. Why do you blame Toshack for each of these? In total, seven players announced their international retirement within months of Toshack's appointment,[8] including Savage,[61] captain Gary Speed, who had been critical of Toshack's opinions previously,[62] Mark Pembridge and Andy Melville.Gabbidon retired under tosh well didnt play for a year then retired but came back under speed Davies was publicly slated by tosh before retiringSpeedo went before Toshack started. For what it is worth, I do consider the unwillingness to reach out to Speedo to be an error as a player like that would have added major value in terms of what Toshack was looking to do. But that it is not the same as blaming him for the retirement itself. I look forward to you expanding in these 3 examples. The answer to the second question is rather shallow. Savage was a Premiership player. I do blame Toshack for disguarding him but believe that the decision was the right one regardless of the club that the player was with. I didnt mention savage although i would have had him in the side he is marmitehow many people have to fall out with before you start to think the problem could be them?
Thank you. I will listen to it with an open mind.
Ashley williams does say he always grateful of tosh but he paints a very odd picture of the camp during that time |
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Post by toshfan on Oct 25, 2022 12:21:41 GMT
No, it was Toshack. Well we were playing in the millenniumn (2011) after tosh has quit so im not sure thats trueBecause playing there for the 2010 WC Qualifiers was the last. I do not know if a contractual obligation prevented us from leaving sooner. Were there an ability to have left sooner, we should have done so. I do wish I had recorded Speedo's words about Toshack when he was a Sky Pundit. They were overwhelmingly complimentary. So you blame Toshack for retirements because of opinions he held about the side before his appointment? Is that right? That does not cover why Toshack is to blame. I know that Davies did not enjoy Toshack's tenure. He has said so. I know that the current crop we have now did not. Why not? Carl Robinson thought that Toshack was excellent. He said so. |
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Post by mrpicton79 on Oct 25, 2022 12:32:14 GMT
always be of the view Flynn drove the under 21s gave us fans something to look forward to - almost qualifying, beating italy, the games against england with a packed ninian park, all that after what 5 years without a win under shoulder. During his time we had dire results under toshack, scraping wins against bottom tier sides at the millennium with 15k crowd. It was awful. He fell out with as many players and flynn brought in for him. It was flynn finding these players, williams, playing bale further up. The biggest thing tosh did was bring in flynn. It was speed that took us to the Cardiff city stadium permanently, brought in modern day training methods. Players came back after tosh had alienated them. He was too old for modern football and passed his prime. If you want an insight into what a joke times were with tosh listen to the long man podcast with Ashley Williams. I realise that we are polar opposites on this debate but you are objective enough to recognise the masterstroke to bring in Flynn and to make him responsible for pretty much everything u21s and below. To say that it was a game changer is an understatement. Their meeting at Verdis in Mumbles ultimately was the day that Welsh Football changed forever. It was Toshack who took us away from the Millennium. As for the claim that Toshack alienated players, very few who make that claim will answer the following questions:
1. Which retirement or loss of a player do you blame Toshack for?
2. In each case what was the impact of the loss of that player?Could you share a link to the podcast with Ashley Williams, please? I have not heard it before. Finally, I wish you well if you watch the programme. From the clip alone, it will be a much harder watch for you than for me This is all well-documented. Acting like you don't know at this point or even trying to revise what actually happened is disingenuous. If you really don't know then you can learn a lot from the earlier pages of this very thread. I'll help you out with one of them... I vividly remember reading about the falling out he had with (then Premier League regular) Danny Collins. One squad session when they were chatting Tosh asked him if he'd been playing much for his club that season and if so in what position, as if he'd been struggling to get minutes for Flexsys Cefn Druids. All he had to do was watch Match of the fucking Day on BBC1 to see, not too tall an order for an international manager you would think. That just sums up the man and his tenure with Wales right there. Laziness and unprofessionalism personified. |
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Post by mrpicton79 on Oct 25, 2022 12:50:41 GMT
Toshack planted the seed with Flynn. Thanks to those guys. They’re more important to Wales getting to the Semi Final of Euro 2016 than Coleman was! That's a pretty sweeping statement. We're talking about 6 years of abject failure under Tosh himself, then another 6 year struggle after he'd left before we achieved anything. Now another 6 years later we finally qualify for a World Cup, and some of us are still banging on about how great Toshack was and how his tremendous work led to all this success  |
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Post by njdragon on Oct 25, 2022 13:36:37 GMT
Because playing there for the 2010 WC Qualifiers was the last. I do not know if a contractual obligation prevented us from leaving sooner. Were there an ability to have left sooner, we should have done so. Why did we only play one game under CCS with tosh, others at parc y scarlets, the liberty? It was only when speed came in we switched to CCS permanent. I do wish I had recorded Speedo's words about Toshack when he was a Sky Pundit. They were overwhelmingly complimentary. www.thefreelibrary.com/Football%3A+LOAD+OF+OLD+TOSH%3B+Captain+Speed+hits+back+at+Toshack%27s...-a0123143700So you blame Toshack for retirements because of opinions he held about the side before his appointment? Is that right? not me the squad did, this is well documented the falling out. Maybe looking back but he forced their retirements because of his commentary during the euro qualifiers
In total, seven players announced their international retirement within months of Toshack's appointment
Mark Hughes also questioned Toshack's suitability for the role, stating that UEFA coaching qualifications which Toshack did not possess should be considered a prerequisite for the job. How right he was. That does not cover why Toshack is to blame. Again how many people does one person have to fall out with before you start to realise its them?
In his first full qualifying campaign, Toshack's squad was plagued by withdrawals, so much so that he chose to issue a letter to 36 Welsh players for them to show "total commitment to the cause".[69] With the noted retirements and regular withdrawals, Toshack was forced to use a relatively youthful side for a difficult qualifying campaign in which Wales finished fifth out of seven teams and failed to qualify for UEFA Euro 2008. A defeat to Poland in February 2009 caused anger among supporters as captain Craig Bellamy clashed verbally with fans and a further defeat to Finland a month later saw the side jeered off the pitch at full-time.[8] In October 2009, Wales were unable to fill a squad for a friendly match against Finland following four retirements in the months prior to the match. One of the players, Paul Parry, cited being made to feel like a "spare part" as the reason for his decision to make himself unavailable for selection
I know that Davies did not enjoy Toshack's tenure. He has said so. No and he publicly slated DaviesI know that the current crop we have now did not. Why not? Carl Robinson thought that Toshack was excellent. He said so. s |
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Post by welwyn on Oct 25, 2022 13:45:50 GMT
I don't think there is any question that the bloody of youngsters by Toshack/Flynn was vital to use qualifying - Therefore we probably couldn't have qualified without the Toshack era.
However, from everything we have heard about how the senior team was actually run by Toshack it is unquestionable that we could never have qualified with Toshack in charge.
In essence, we needed the Toshack era but probably should have ended it sooner than we did.
I suppose that might be seen as too even handed for an internet forum though.
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Post by njdragon on Oct 25, 2022 13:54:50 GMT
I don't think there is any question that the bloody of youngsters by Toshack/Flynn was vital to use qualifying - Therefore we probably couldn't have qualified without the Toshack era. However, from everything we have heard about how the senior team was actually run by Toshack it is unquestionable that we could never have qualified with Toshack in charge. In essence, we needed the Toshack era but probably should have ended it sooner than we did. I suppose that might be seen as too even handed for an internet forum though. probably the most balanced view on here! I agree |
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Post by mrpicton79 on Oct 25, 2022 15:11:49 GMT
I don't think there is any question that the bloody of youngsters by Toshack/Flynn was vital to use qualifying - Therefore we probably couldn't have qualified without the Toshack era. However, from everything we have heard about how the senior team was actually run by Toshack it is unquestionable that we could never have qualified with Toshack in charge. In essence, we needed the Toshack era but probably should have ended it sooner than we did. I suppose that might be seen as too even handed for an internet forum though. It's fine to have a balanced view. It's just some people like to give too much credit to certain managers for simply doing what they are supposed to do. Would we not have discovered Bale, Ramsey, Allen, Hennessey, Gunter, Williams etc were eligible to play for Wales without Toshack's genius at the helm? |
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Post by toshfan on Oct 25, 2022 15:14:36 GMT
I don't think there is any question that the bloody of youngsters by Toshack/Flynn was vital to use qualifying - Therefore we probably couldn't have qualified without the Toshack era. However, from everything we have heard about how the senior team was actually run by Toshack it is unquestionable that we could never have qualified with Toshack in charge. In essence, we needed the Toshack era but probably should have ended it sooner than we did. I suppose that might be seen as too even handed for an internet forum though. That is a fair point of view articulated by the brilliant texanHe believed that the Toshack years were a success up to 2008 but not beyond that. |
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Post by welwyn on Oct 25, 2022 15:15:32 GMT
I don't think there is any question that the bloody of youngsters by Toshack/Flynn was vital to use qualifying - Therefore we probably couldn't have qualified without the Toshack era. However, from everything we have heard about how the senior team was actually run by Toshack it is unquestionable that we could never have qualified with Toshack in charge. In essence, we needed the Toshack era but probably should have ended it sooner than we did. I suppose that might be seen as too even handed for an internet forum though. It's fine to have a balanced view. It's just some people like to give too much credit to certain managers for simply doing what they are supposed to do. Would we not have discovered Bale, Ramsey, Allen, Hennessey, Gunter, Williams etc were eligible to play for Wales without Toshack's genius at the helm? Probably wouldn't have found Ash given the Flynn story behind him!! |
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Post by toshfan on Oct 25, 2022 15:18:31 GMT
Carl Robinson would not have got a game if it wasn't for tosh falling out with senior player - the current crop were youngsters with tosh in charge. They were flynns side You are missing the point. Those youngsters did not fall out with them. Not only are they better players than they predecessors on the whole but they have been committed to the cause throughout. Players like Carl Robinson were chosen as being more important in the transition than Savage. I realise Toshack Detractors disagreed with that choice but it was a choice that made. I have always conceded that Toshack did not have the dressing room compared to other managers but there are players that do acknowledge him positively. Even Bellamy, not seen as a fan, has praised the difference that he made. |
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Post by marsvolta on Oct 25, 2022 15:24:17 GMT
Don’t really want to get into this discussion but a few points-
Pembridge and Melville should have retired before the campaign started but stayed on for one last crack at qualifying under Hughes. We were dead and buried in the group half way through and Hughes left for Blackburn.
I loved Hughes but he left us with no hope of qualifying,without many youngsters and an ageing squad. Keeping the likes of Pembridge when he was way past his best instead of bringing someone else though was a good example of this.
Separate note, on the subject of Pembridge, he was one of our most underrated players. Great servant. This is no way a criticism of him.
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Post by njdragon on Oct 25, 2022 15:41:52 GMT
Carl Robinson would not have got a game if it wasn't for tosh falling out with senior player - the current crop were youngsters with tosh in charge. They were flynns side You are missing the point. Those youngsters did not fall out with them. Not only are they better players than they predecessors on the whole but they have been committed to the cause throughout. Players like Carl Robinson were chosen as being more important in the transition than Savage. I realise Toshack Detractors disagreed with that choice but it was a choice that made. I have always conceded that Toshack did not have the dressing room compared to other managers but there are players that do acknowledge him positively. Even Bellamy, not seen as a fan, has praised the difference that he made. so its ok for him to fall out with: Melville Speed Savage Bellamy Gabbidon Davies Parry Pembridge Collins koumas Blake Johnson Even giggs retired under tosh but Because he didnt fall out with the others? surely you have to at some point you think hang on who's the one constant here |
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Post by toshfan on Oct 25, 2022 16:01:39 GMT
so its ok for him to fall out with: Melville Speed Savage Bellamy Gabbidon Davies Parry Pembridge Collins koumas Blake Johnson Even giggs retired under tosh but Because he didnt fall out with the others? surely you have to at some point you think hang on who's the one constant here Melville - in what way should John Toshack be held accountable for the retirement of this player? Speed - in what way should John Toshack be held accountable for the retirement of Speedo who went before Toshack took up the role? I do wish Toshack had asked him to come out of retirement but he cannot be blamed for the retirement. Savage - yes, I agree. Toshack did not see him adding value to the transition required. I agreed with Toshack then. I do now. Bellamy - he never retired and was committed to the cause during the Toshack years. Gabbidon - in what way should John Toshack be held accountable for the retirement of this player? Davies - you have covered this one. Parry - one of the least edifying retirements of the lot. In what way should John Toshack be held accountable for the retirement of this player? Pembridge - I agree with a comment already made. In what way should John Toshack be held accountable for the retirement of this player? Collins - In what way should John Toshack be held accountable for the retirement of this player? He did not turn out to be a loss. Koumas - In what way should John Toshack be held accountable for the retirement of this player? Blake - In what way should John Toshack be held accountable for the retirement of this player? Johnson - In what way should John Toshack be held accountable for the retirement of this player? You forgot Ben Thatcher. |
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Post by njdragon on Oct 25, 2022 16:20:40 GMT
The first load tosh retired by even taking the job.
Bellamy he fell out with
Gabbidon left because of toshack and came back under speed - coincidence? NO
Davies criticised by tosh - left
Parry- 'One of the players, Paul Parry, cited being made to feel like a "spare part" as the reason for his decision to make himself unavailable for selection'
Collins - “At the time I was playing regularly for my club, but when I came down here I was asked by the manager of my country if I had been playing regularly and in what position, so what would you make of that?"
Koumas- Toshack has already criticised the player for his dispute with West Bromwich Albion which has seen the player fail to train with the Black Country club amid haggling over a possible move to Cardiff
Johson - Toshack asked him to reconsider retirement and he refused
i forgot fletcher - Carl Fletcher both calling it a day after being criticised for their performances
add delaney & hartson to that
surely you can see what went wrong there. If it was 2 or 3 fair enough but to fall out with that many.
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Post by mrpicton79 on Oct 25, 2022 16:32:10 GMT
I think in the end it just comes down to a peculiar obsession some people have with an individual they will always idolise. In a way I idolise Bale but if one day he ends up getting the Wales job and turns out to be an inept manager I won't pretend I can't see what's happening.
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