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Toshack
Oct 31, 2022 22:54:45 GMT
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Post by jbt95 on Oct 31, 2022 22:54:45 GMT
He did didn't he? What did Hughes do for youth football? I was young at that point but I seem to remember we had an Under 21's because we had to field a team. Flynn ran it but Toshack was in the main job so must take some credit. What are the U21's achieving today? Very little unfortunately. Because it would appear we aren't blessed with a talented crop of youngsters all coming through at the same time, like almost every other era of Welsh football. Do we hammer Page and the Welsh setup for that? No, because it wouldn't be logical (although I can see Bodin getting some flak admittedly). But by all means let's give Flynn credit. Why is there no thread full of praise and adulation for his contribution to Welsh football? Youth football is largely irrelevant after U16 level, once they can leave school if they are good enough they can play senior, like Ampadu, Bale etc. Most players with a high amount of U21 caps don’t get many at senior level, even for bigger nations. |
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Post by cadno on Oct 31, 2022 23:04:37 GMT
I cba to look back at the stats but I reckon we kept the ball a lot more under tosh compared to previous managers, he moved us more towards a continental style of play, keeping possession, ball on the floor etc, and put a lot of trust in young players to do this. I remember moments like Ledley’s goal away in Russia & Rambo’s masterclass against Scotland…. But realistically our players weren’t good enough to qualify at the time, not sure any manager in the world would’ve taken us to a tournament between 2006-2012 …
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Post by mrpicton79 on Oct 31, 2022 23:13:19 GMT
It's amazing what people will contrive when they're passionate about something. Apparently he created the concept of youth football, which never existed pre-Toshack; and was solely responsible for the talented group of players we happened to have coming through at the time. Nothing whatsoever to do with luck or circumstance. I'm sorry, but that post is one of the most shocking examples of the straw man fallacy I think I've ever seen: Straw man fallacy: A straw man fallacy occurs when someone takes another person’s argument or point, distorts it or exaggerates it in some kind of extreme way, and then attacks the extreme distortion, as if that is really the claim the first person is making. Everyone, even Toshfan, are saying that many mistakes were made. Most of us are also saying that the setup appears to have been very amateurish. No one is claiming that he 'created the concept of youth football', but what people are saying is that there was a deliberate strategy to play young players over older ones that perhaps were better at the time and would have earned better results. There was a deliberate attempt to widen the playing pool as much as possible, give players experience as young as possible, which have been important factors in giving the squad a collective spirit and experience to achieve what they then achieved. We'll never know what the counterfactual is, but it's safe to assume that most other managers would not have had such a long-term vision, and they would have played more experienced players a lot more often, and the young Gunters, Ledleys and Hennesseys, and unproven players like League 1 Ash Williams, a lot less often. As a result, that would have meant a less experienced and potentially less together group going into the euro 16 qualifiers. I think almost all managers would have brought bale and ramsey in straight away like tosh did, but those other players i mentioned who were instrumental to our success latterly, but were no great shakes when tosh was playing them - probably not so much. I'm aware what a strawman argument is and what I'm saying isn't really an example of one. We've been over this umpteen times now. What other option did he have at the time? Who was he going to select ahead of the obviously talented youngsters coming through? League 2/non-league veterans? Some Vauxhall Masterfit Welsh Premier hotshots maybe? Tosh missed out on a lot of the senior players because he pissed them off and they didn't want to play under him. Are we really giving him credit for having terrible man-management skills because it forced his hand with the youngsters and it all worked out in the end? Sorry that's about as contrived as it gets if that's what we're doing. |
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Post by mrpicton79 on Oct 31, 2022 23:22:32 GMT
I don't think it's selling him short at all. The two competitive results you mention were nice enough but they happened when any hopes of qualifying were long since gone. Friendlies are meaningless. Throughout his whole tenure whenever we had a crunch game to kick-start or save a campaign we shit the bed every single time. It's just nauseating reading the sort of comments saying he left us in perfect shape to qualify. The first game of the Euro 2012 campaign (his last) was one of the worst performances of the lot. I remember the 0-1 scoreline in Montenegro really flattering us that day. We were as far away from it as we'd ever been. That's a silly thing to say about the montenegro game. They were a fairly newly formed team so everyone assumed they would be crap. As it turns out, they came second in the group ahead of Switzerland, getting two draws against England in the process. They were just a better side than us. I was talking about the performance that day, which was pretty abysmal. Before the game it was all "6 years of building, now is the time!", "judge me on this" etc, and we went out and showed nothing and could have easily lost that game by 3 or 4. Tosh-era Wales in a nutshell. |
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Post by iot on Oct 31, 2022 23:46:03 GMT
I'm sorry, but that post is one of the most shocking examples of the straw man fallacy I think I've ever seen: Straw man fallacy: A straw man fallacy occurs when someone takes another person’s argument or point, distorts it or exaggerates it in some kind of extreme way, and then attacks the extreme distortion, as if that is really the claim the first person is making. Everyone, even Toshfan, are saying that many mistakes were made. Most of us are also saying that the setup appears to have been very amateurish. No one is claiming that he 'created the concept of youth football', but what people are saying is that there was a deliberate strategy to play young players over older ones that perhaps were better at the time and would have earned better results. There was a deliberate attempt to widen the playing pool as much as possible, give players experience as young as possible, which have been important factors in giving the squad a collective spirit and experience to achieve what they then achieved. We'll never know what the counterfactual is, but it's safe to assume that most other managers would not have had such a long-term vision, and they would have played more experienced players a lot more often, and the young Gunters, Ledleys and Hennesseys, and unproven players like League 1 Ash Williams, a lot less often. As a result, that would have meant a less experienced and potentially less together group going into the euro 16 qualifiers. I think almost all managers would have brought bale and ramsey in straight away like tosh did, but those other players i mentioned who were instrumental to our success latterly, but were no great shakes when tosh was playing them - probably not so much. I'm aware what a strawman argument is and what I'm saying isn't really an example of one. We've been over this umpteen times now. What other option did he have at the time? Who was he going to select ahead of the obviously talented youngsters coming through? League 2/non-league veterans? Some Vauxhall Masterfit Welsh Premier hotshots maybe? Tosh missed out on a lot of the senior players because he pissed them off and they didn't want to play under him. Are we really giving him credit for having terrible man-management skills because it forced his hand with the youngsters and it all worked out in the end? Sorry that's about as contrived as it gets if that's what we're doing. Yes, it's the very definition of a straw man. The examples I raised - I believe Hennessey came in after a loan spell in League 2 potentially with Stockport. Ash Williams also came in after Flynn spoke to him when scouting Hennessey. We had other players at the time playing at a higher level. 'Tosh missed out on a lot of the senior players because he pissed them off and they didn't want to play under him.' That's not completely true. Savage is on the record saying that he desperately tried to apologise to Tosh and beg him to come back into the fold, but Tosh refused to take his calls. I also remember Hartson saying in an interview that he wanted to reverse his retirement decision, but Tosh never took him up on it. He took the decision (which I actually disagreed with in this instance) to move on from those players to give more opportunities to the next generation. |
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Post by iot on Oct 31, 2022 23:51:20 GMT
That's a silly thing to say about the montenegro game. They were a fairly newly formed team so everyone assumed they would be crap. As it turns out, they came second in the group ahead of Switzerland, getting two draws against England in the process. They were just a better side than us. I was talking about the performance that day, which was pretty abysmal. Before the game it was all "6 years of building, now is the time!", "judge me on this" etc, and we went out and showed nothing and could have easily lost that game by 3 or 4. Tosh-era Wales in a nutshell. I can only take your word for it as I was too young to travel at the time and didn't have Sky, so couldn't watch it. Googling the match reports do paint a different story though - stats look equal and reports say Church hit the post and had a goal disallowed. |
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Post by insertname on Nov 1, 2022 0:13:03 GMT
I cba to look back at the stats but I reckon we kept the ball a lot more under tosh compared to previous managers, he moved us more towards a continental style of play, keeping possession, ball on the floor etc, and put a lot of trust in young players to do this. I remember moments like Ledley’s goal away in Russia & Rambo’s masterclass against Scotland…. But realistically our players weren’t good enough to qualify at the time, not sure any manager in the world would’ve taken us to a tournament between 2006-2012 … True, but if we’d have had a more progressive manager and the players who retired had stuck around we’d probably have had a far better crack at it than we did. It’s a moot point in some ways though so I find it hard to be as worked up a about it as I felt at the time. Looking back it really feels like the Tosh years were a sort of penance that had to be endured and the following ten years was the reward. All in all I’m sure most if not all would say it was worth it. I don’t think it was ever really planned that way, no matter what Tosh might claim, it was just the way it worked out. Getting some young players to a certain cap level was a good starting point but we still needed Bale to hit heights even he had not suggested he could hit in Tosh’s time and also the emergence of Chester who was some 4 years away when Tosh left. |
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Toshack
Nov 1, 2022 0:20:20 GMT
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Post by insertname on Nov 1, 2022 0:20:20 GMT
That's a silly thing to say about the montenegro game. They were a fairly newly formed team so everyone assumed they would be crap. As it turns out, they came second in the group ahead of Switzerland, getting two draws against England in the process. They were just a better side than us. I was talking about the performance that day, which was pretty abysmal. Before the game it was all "6 years of building, now is the time!", "judge me on this" etc, and we went out and showed nothing and could have easily lost that game by 3 or 4. Tosh-era Wales in a nutshell. I seem to recall he did keep kicking the can down the road in terms of expectation: “judge me on the next campaign” etc. And for all that he might say he had a plan all along when the end eventually came it wasn’t at the end of a campaign with Tosh handing over a squad in decent shape, knowing he had done the hard yards but left us better off than he found us at a definite end point, he was removed mid-way through a campaign when we were aimlessly drifting along much as we had been in previous campaigns under him. His successors thankfully were able to pick up the pieces and eventually shape the raw materials into a functioning unit. Although as I said above I wouldn’t say that Speed or Coleman’s Wales were much like the team Tosh seemed to be trying to create. |
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Post by mrpicton79 on Nov 1, 2022 0:22:40 GMT
I'm aware what a strawman argument is and what I'm saying isn't really an example of one. We've been over this umpteen times now. What other option did he have at the time? Who was he going to select ahead of the obviously talented youngsters coming through? League 2/non-league veterans? Some Vauxhall Masterfit Welsh Premier hotshots maybe? Tosh missed out on a lot of the senior players because he pissed them off and they didn't want to play under him. Are we really giving him credit for having terrible man-management skills because it forced his hand with the youngsters and it all worked out in the end? Sorry that's about as contrived as it gets if that's what we're doing.
The examples I raised - I believe Hennessey came in after a loan spell in League 2 potentially with Stockport. Ash Williams also came in after Flynn spoke to him when scouting Hennessey. Again, names! Who did we have playing at a higher level who he didn't fall out with?
'Tosh missed out on a lot of the senior players because he pissed them off and they didn't want to play under him.' That's not completely true. Savage is on the record saying that he desperately tried to apologise to Tosh and beg him to come back into the fold, but Tosh refused to take his calls. I also remember Hartson saying in an interview that he wanted to reverse his retirement decision, but Tosh never took him up on it. I can imagine the outrage had Page done this and prematurely curtailed the international careers of a dozen of our senior players ahead of the recent WC campaign. |
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Toshack
Nov 1, 2022 12:52:01 GMT
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Post by conwy10 on Nov 1, 2022 12:52:01 GMT
He did didn't he? What did Hughes do for youth football? I was young at that point but I seem to remember we had an Under 21's because we had to field a team. Flynn ran it but Toshack was in the main job so must take some credit. What are the U21's achieving today? Very little unfortunately. Because it would appear we aren't blessed with a talented crop of youngsters all coming through at the same time, like almost every other era of Welsh football. Do we hammer Page and the Welsh setup for that? No, because it wouldn't be logical (although I can see Bodin getting some flak admittedly). But by all means let's give Flynn credit. Why is there no thread full of praise and adulation for his contribution to Welsh football? I agree there should be. I think if people started questioning Flynn a lot would stand up for him. Flynn did do amazing but the guy in charge does get the credit from the work of their staff, in the same way my director looks amazing when my workplace over performs. In terms of the Wales age groups if depends how you measure it. To be honest I don't care if they lose every match as long as they're ready for the senior team. It is nice to see when they do well though. We've had Rodon, Neco Williams, Daniel James, Brennan Johnson become a key part of the first team set up. There's a steady stream coming through. Toshack bought through dozens as well as the majority of the now legends of Welsh football. |
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Post by njdragon on Nov 1, 2022 14:00:48 GMT
Never forget flynn was let go by the FAW despite what he did for them
Last i heard he was taking them to court for unfair dismissal. I do wonder what that was all about!
Needless to say it was during the old FAW dinosaur era
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Post by iot on Nov 1, 2022 14:30:45 GMT
Might wanna do a more thorough google search on what that means.
The examples I raised - I believe Hennessey came in after a loan spell in League 2 potentially with Stockport. Ash Williams also came in after Flynn spoke to him when scouting Hennessey. Again, names! Who did we have playing at a higher level who he didn't fall out with?
'Tosh missed out on a lot of the senior players because he pissed them off and they didn't want to play under him.' That's not completely true. Savage is on the record saying that he desperately tried to apologise to Tosh and beg him to come back into the fold, but Tosh refused to take his calls. I also remember Hartson saying in an interview that he wanted to reverse his retirement decision, but Tosh never took him up on it. I can imagine the outrage had Page done this and prematurely curtailed the international careers of a dozen of our senior players ahead of the recent WC campaign. 'Might wanna do a more thorough google search on what that means.' Why don't you enlighten me? 'Again, names! Who did we have playing at a higher level who he didn't fall out with?' Hilarious how you're asking people to give a list of other players who were around at the time that could have been selected, when we're going back 15 years. You know that most people aren't going to bother looking into it all and very few will remember the composition of the playing pool 15 years ago. But since you've asked, I'll give you one example. Hennessey got his debut in 2007. In the next game, he started the 0-0 qualifier against Czech. He was on loan at Stockport County (League 2) at the time and had Danny Coyne on the bench, who had spent a lot of his career in the first two divisions and was playing in a higher division at the time. From that point on he was first choice ahead of Coyne and Lewis Price, who was playing in the Championship at the time. That's one example, I could spend the whole afternoon digging out other examples for other players, but no one's going to be arsed to do that as you know. 'I can imagine the outrage had Page done this and prematurely curtailed the international careers of a dozen of our senior players ahead of the recent WC campaign.' And our current context and the one we had under Tosh are exactly the same of course. Yes people would be outraged if Page did it now as it would be mad, given that we have a good enough squad to qualify right now. But Toshack didn't have that did he, which is why it's far more understandable that he was looking to the future. Anyway, you've clearly just tried to move the goalposts there. You started off saying that the senior, prem players didn't want to play for him. You're then given two examples where those players did want to play and that it was Tosh who had decided to move on from them, so you've just moved the goalposts to a different debate entirely. |
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Post by toshfan on Nov 1, 2022 18:24:32 GMT
I cba to look back at the stats but I reckon we kept the ball a lot more under tosh compared to previous managers, he moved us more towards a continental style of play, keeping possession, ball on the floor etc, and put a lot of trust in young players to do this. I remember moments like Ledley’s goal away in Russia & Rambo’s masterclass against Scotland…. But realistically our players weren’t good enough to qualify at the time, not sure any manager in the world would’ve taken us to a tournament between 2006-2012 … The youth revolution is widely acknowledged but all bar the most ardent of Toshack Detractors. However, what has been missed by some though not by you and I is his greatest achievement that was to change the Wales play from a British up & at em to the A European play possession style. That was absolutely essential to make us sustainable for the international era. To change the way we play and revolution player development at the same time still ranks as the biggest turnaround that I can remember in football. Terrific Television last night - not an easy watch for the Toshack detractors. |
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Toshack
Nov 1, 2022 19:36:32 GMT
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Post by CrackityJones on Nov 1, 2022 19:36:32 GMT
It was great but could have been filled out to an hour. A lot of his remarkable career was skimmed over too quickly
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Post by mrpicton79 on Nov 2, 2022 6:50:17 GMT
'Might wanna do a more thorough google search on what that means.' I'm not the one distorting other people's arguments here. There's no need to when nearly every point being made defending Tosh is as farcical as they are.'Again, names! Who did we have playing at a higher level who he didn't fall out with?' Not sure what you're finding so absurd about people requesting examples when such wild claims are being made. To your credit you have tried there with the Hennessey/Coyne situation, although I'm not sure even that one really works.
Coyne was a back-up keeper for a lot of his career, and he ended up re-joining Tranmere in League One for the 2007-08 season to get regular game time. Wayne had just set a clean sheet record and been named League Two player of the month during his short loan stint at Stockport, before going back to Wolves and it wasn't long before he became first choice there. Hardly under the radar.
'I can imagine the outrage had Page done this and prematurely curtailed the international careers of a dozen of our senior players ahead of the recent WC campaign.' And why did he not have that do you think? Could some of it possibly have been of his own making? Who's moving the goalposts? I'm not the one contriving all these strange arguments to fit with what I want to believe. And how is that an entirely different debate? Either way we didn't have access to a bunch of experienced players at the time because of Tosh himself.
The bottom line is he was one of the worst managers we've ever had (in my time at least), and I really don't know why some of you lot tie yourselves up in knots defending him. |
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Toshack
Nov 2, 2022 12:20:52 GMT
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Post by insertname on Nov 2, 2022 12:20:52 GMT
It was great but could have been filled out to an hour. A lot of his remarkable career was skimmed over too quickly Yeah the BBC programme quickly glossed over the six years he spent in charge of Wales (feels a lot longer than that!), probably not a surprise seeing as it was the least successful time of his career. |
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Toshack
Nov 2, 2022 13:40:02 GMT
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Post by evans1282 on Nov 2, 2022 13:40:02 GMT
This circular argument is a waste of time,I watched home and away under Toshack and liked the progression, were we great? Of course not, but we played football,I for oneappreciated that.Bottom line is Toshack detractors have their opinion and then seek "evidence" to back it.I think they are talking shite,and they probably think I'm sucking Toshacks cock.In reality so many of the topics on here are like all social media,pissing contests,with very little actual insight.I disagree with the Toshack haters and basically have run out of fucks to give regarding their opinions.
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Post by insertname on Nov 2, 2022 15:20:45 GMT
I think you should stop being so diplomatic and tell us how you really feel!
I think some people were obviously too easily pleased with the football under Toshack. It might have been an attempt at a more progressive style but that was all it was- an attempt, which regularly broke down because there were too many passes, it was too ponderous, we’d play ourselves into trouble etc etc and it eventually began to manifest itself as passing for passing’s sake with very little incision or end product. In those days, the style of play was so over-done that it would be a cause for celebration if we got a shot on target or won a corner because moves would typically break down in midfield after 15 passes going nowhere.
As I said above I don’t even think it paved the way for anything particularly as Speed wasn’t really focused 100% on possession. I recall him making heavy use of Williams range of passing to hit diagonal balls to the wingers and launch counter attacks, that sort of play would have given Tosh a heart attack.
All in all I felt Tosh’s approach was more suited to club football where you can work on your weakest links day in day out. Trying to mould lower league players like Nyatanga into being comfortable on the ball over 3 or 4 days every few months was a fool’s errand.
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Post by mrpicton79 on Nov 2, 2022 17:28:25 GMT
This circular argument is a waste of time,I watched home and away under Toshack and liked the progression, were we great? Of course not, but we played football,I for oneappreciated that.Bottom line is Toshack detractors have their opinion and then seek "evidence" to back it.I think they are talking shite,and they probably think I'm sucking Toshacks cock.In reality so many of the topics on here are like all social media,pissing contests,with very little actual insight.I disagree with the Toshack haters and basically have run out of fucks to give regarding their opinions. Lol. But it's not about being a hater, or even a detractor. It's just being honest. And not really sure about the progression thing. I seem to remember some of the most disappointing performances under Tosh coming towards the end. |
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Post by iot on Nov 2, 2022 22:27:53 GMT
'Might wanna do a more thorough google search on what that means.' I'm not the one distorting other people's arguments here. There's no need to when nearly every point being made defending Tosh is as farcical as they are.'Again, names! Who did we have playing at a higher level who he didn't fall out with?' Not sure what you're finding so absurd about people requesting examples when such wild claims are being made. To your credit you have tried there with the Hennessey/Coyne situation, although I'm not sure even that one really works.
Coyne was a back-up keeper for a lot of his career, and he ended up re-joining Tranmere in League One for the 2007-08 season to get regular game time. Wayne had just set a clean sheet record and been named League Two player of the month during his short loan stint at Stockport, before going back to Wolves and it wasn't long before he became first choice there. Hardly under the radar.
'I can imagine the outrage had Page done this and prematurely curtailed the international careers of a dozen of our senior players ahead of the recent WC campaign.' And why did he not have that do you think? Could some of it possibly have been of his own making? Who's moving the goalposts? I'm not the one contriving all these strange arguments to fit with what I want to believe. And how is that an entirely different debate? Either way we didn't have access to a bunch of experienced players at the time because of Tosh himself.
The bottom line is he was one of the worst managers we've ever had (in my time at least), and I really don't know why some of you lot tie yourselves up in knots defending him.'Contriving strange arguments' 'tying ourselves in knots' - sorry, you're spouting absolute rubbish. Saying that Toshack had many faults and was not modern enough in his approach, but at the same time did blood players younger than most managers would have done, thereby leaving us with a more experienced and tighter-knit group come the Euro 16 qualifiers, is an entirely reasonable view to have. In fact, it's a view shared by many of the players - Gunter, Owain Tudur Jones, Ramsey and others have all said something similar. You're the one contradicting them in refusal to acknowledge any good that he did. Yes he was old school, but he was managing Real Madrid just five years before taking the Wales job and Real Sociedad up to two years before taking over, so he clearly had a very high standing in the game up until he took the job |
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Post by mrpicton79 on Nov 2, 2022 23:44:56 GMT
'Contriving strange arguments' 'tying ourselves in knots' - sorry, you're spouting absolute rubbish. Saying that Toshack had many faults and was not modern enough in his approach, but at the same time did blood players younger than most managers would have done, thereby leaving us with a more experienced and tighter-knit group come the Euro 16 qualifiers, is an entirely reasonable view to have. In fact, it's a view shared by many of the players - Gunter, Owain Tudur Jones, Ramsey and others have all said something similar. You're the one contradicting them in refusal to acknowledge any good that he did. Yes he was old school, but he was managing Real Madrid just five years before taking the Wales job and Real Sociedad up to two years before taking over, so he clearly had a very high standing in the game up until he took the job Of course, he managed Real Madrid twice, how silly of me questioning his management credentials. All I'm saying is you and all the other Tosh-lovers greatly exaggerate how brave he was "blooding younger players" when in reality his hand was forced, and yes most managers probably would have selected the same personnel under the circumstances. And you know current/recently retired players generally aren't a good gauge. They're too professional to come out publicly talking about how clueless he was (bar maybe Robbie Savage). But anyway as others have said, we're just going round in circles here, so I'll stop spouting my absolute rubbish for the time being. |
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Toshack
Nov 2, 2022 23:59:47 GMT
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Post by evans1282 on Nov 2, 2022 23:59:47 GMT
This circular argument is a waste of time,I watched home and away under Toshack and liked the progression, were we great? Of course not, but we played football,I for oneappreciated that.Bottom line is Toshack detractors have their opinion and then seek "evidence" to back it.I think they are talking shite,and they probably think I'm sucking Toshacks cock.In reality so many of the topics on here are like all social media,pissing contests,with very little actual insight.I disagree with the Toshack haters and basically have run out of fucks to give regarding their opinions. Lol. But it's not about being a hater, or even a detractor. It's just being honest. And not really sure about the progression thing. I seem to remember some of the most disappointing performances under Tosh coming towards the end. As I said no more fucks to give,have your opinion ,like arseholes we all have one!Just disagree on this . |
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Toshack
Nov 3, 2022 8:39:06 GMT
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Post by bale-droed on Nov 3, 2022 8:39:06 GMT
The 2 most annoying this about Wales are as follows:
1. The lack of desire for independence linked with the severe case of Stockholm syndrome that most suffer from.
2. Toshack would always get credit down the line when he deserves 0.
When Tosh finally left Wales who wanted him? Tractor Sazi , Macedonia and Casablanca. Is that proof of a previous job that was done well? He threw as much shit at the wall as he could as he had literally 0 eye for talent. Mark Bradley , Steve Evans , David Partridge etc etc etc there were more duds than wins. He picked anyone. Deserves 0 credit for picking Bale as he was already starting in the championship and clearly the best option in his position at the time. Wayne had the league 2 record for the longest time without conceding by the time he picked him. If Tosh was serious about youth he would’ve been in before that. I hope nobody ever forgets this fact = Ramsey didn’t play for Wales seniors until after he had signed for Arsenal. When he was at Arsenal Tosh called him up. What more proof is needed that he didn’t have an eye for talent?
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Post by njdragon on Nov 3, 2022 9:50:58 GMT
Did you watch the together stronger last night - i was happy that gave more credit to flynn than tosh. They really played up how much donkey work flynn was doing - watching 4 games in one day.
The gave a really good account of who it actually was that put in the groundwork. Ramsey credited flynn they were all a bit hesitant with tosh i thought. Even his parting statement about tosh was half hearted something like.. i think we owe him some credit.
I was surprised at the amount of retirements but like mark evans said they forced his hand and gave him his excuse. Even if they had stayed on though they would have fallen out with him eventually
And i liked the comment where they mentioned we had tosh on his way down after success, whereas with hughes he was on his way up
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Post by njdragon on Nov 3, 2022 9:51:39 GMT
Jemaine easter dont forget that goal machine!
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Post by dai on Nov 3, 2022 9:56:39 GMT
Who is John Toshack?
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Post by marsvolta on Nov 3, 2022 10:51:05 GMT
Jermaine Easter was the Tom Bradshaw of the time.
He’d have short spells where he would put a short run of goals together, football forums would be full of fans saying that he’s the answer to our scoring problems, then he’d stop scoring for about 10 games in a row and everyone forgot about him.
The only difference between him and Bradshaw is that we didn’t have as many options then so he actually got called up.
Bradshaw was still miles better than Easter so it shows how much better off we are now.
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Post by njdragon on Nov 3, 2022 11:23:05 GMT
Craig davies!
The only one i used to love dont know what happened to him though was freddy eastwood
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Toshack
Nov 3, 2022 11:24:57 GMT
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Post by insertname on Nov 3, 2022 11:24:57 GMT
He was never “that” good. Did Easter ever have a goal scoring run at championship level? I recall him mostly being a lower league striker apart from maybe 15 minutes of fame following his hot run in the FA cup with wycombe. I think he got called up for the same reasons as stated above: lack of options and throwing stuff at the wall to see what stuck. To be fair to Tosh Bradshaw would probably have won a fair few caps back in those days because the cupboard was so bare up front that a player who goes on a scoring run once a season at championship level would have been a key player. That aside I agree with the general gist that Tosh’s promotion of youth is a bit over-stated and it wasn’t like he was surgical in who he brought in.
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Toshack
Nov 3, 2022 11:27:05 GMT
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Post by insertname on Nov 3, 2022 11:27:05 GMT
Jermaine Easter was the Tom Bradshaw of the time. He’d have short spells where he would put a short run of goals together, football forums would be full of fans saying that he’s the answer to our scoring problems, then he’d stop scoring for about 10 games in a row and everyone forgot about him. The only difference between him and Bradshaw is that we didn’t have as many options then so he actually got called up. Bradshaw was still miles better than Easter so it shows how much better off we are now. Craig davies! The only one i used to love dont know what happened to him though was freddy eastwood That was a weird one, went from scoring an absolute belter on his debut Vs Bulgaria and I started to get carried away thinking he was the consistent goal scoring striker we lacked and then just suddenly seemed to go shit at club level and his career dropped off a cliff very quickly. |
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