|
|
Toshack
Nov 4, 2022 8:41:16 GMT
via mobile
Post by conwy10 on Nov 4, 2022 8:41:16 GMT
I agree there's no comparison between Toshack and Coleman but is it a fair comparison? We never beat a big team under Toshack but we were having to use League One/Two players. Speed took a while to get results, Coleman didn't have the best starts. The players were getting better with age obviously but I do think there's a case to be made that because of Toshack we were already on the road. Needed vast improvements in certain areas but some were already built or on their way.
|
|
|
|
Toshack
Nov 4, 2022 8:49:28 GMT
via mobile
Post by conwy10 on Nov 4, 2022 8:49:28 GMT
I don't think anyone here is suggesting we would have qualifies with Toshack. But you can't ignore we opened up a pathway for youth under him that served us well in the future. Flynn did amazing work in getting them through to the seniors but it was Toshack who picked the senior squad and the vision for the future.
We were doing nothing with the likes of Savage in the team. We took a different direction and in the long term it paid off.
|
|
|
|
Post by bringbackelmo on Nov 4, 2022 9:41:38 GMT
He sadly can’t add the 2005 1-0 defeat to Cyprus or the 2-2 draw to New Zealand to his record but the time we scraped past Liechtenstein 1-0 in a competitive game he can. As I finish typing that I realised he also can’t add to his win record the following games = the 0-0 draw to Northern Ireland, 3-1 defeat to Cyprus, the 2-1 defeat to Georgia or the loss to Montenegro who were a new country at the time. Someone give Toshack a statue. I mean we did beat San Marino 2-1, Estonia 1-0 and Trinidad 2-1 But to be fair in recent years we've qualified for 3 major tournament but still lost to Albania, drew 0-0 to Estonia, scraped past Azerbijian. We nearly lost to Belarus... I think regardless of what we do we'll always have those results come up every now and again. That 2016 team reached a European Semi Final but along the way had to dig deep to beat Andorra 2-1. Show me a country that doesn't have the odd dodgy result against 'weaker' sides. Even in the last round of WC qualifiers Sweden lost to Georgia, the Dutch drew with Montenegro, Germany lost to North Macedonia. Italy drew games with Bulgaria and an out of form Northern Ireland and then lost their play-off against North Macedonia just after winning the Euros. It's part of international football. |
|
|
|
Post by mrpicton79 on Nov 4, 2022 9:52:10 GMT
This is the bullshit that you are buying for some reason. The plan was "we need players, Brian find me some players!". There was no rocket science involved. As one generation of players are phased out then naturally you look to the new generation, who will be....you guessed it, younger. Obviously the average is going to drop significantly whenever that happens. And even that narrative isn't completely accurate. If he was that enthused about blooding younger players he wouldn't have persisted with Koumas for so long ahead of more promising options in midfield. You are setting the bar pretty low if you think he deserves some absurd amount of praise for that. His hand was partly forced, but it is also true to say he could have selected older, more proven players at the time, but chose not to. I see myself sitting between the two extreme positions of 'Toshack was a genius and principally responsible for our subsequent success', and 'he set Welsh football back and deserves zero credit for bringing through the generation of players as early as he did'. You're very much in the latter and just digging in, so we're not getting anywhere. So for the sanity of the poor bastards reading this thread, I will leave it there. Who? I'll leave it alone when you answer this. But you haven't yet. If what you are saying is correct there should be a multitude of examples. You've only been able to mention Danny Coyne/Lewis Price. Is that it? |
|
|
|
Post by iot on Nov 4, 2022 10:00:50 GMT
We're talking about 15 years ago. It took me 20mins to work out when Hennessey was brought in, who he was selected ahead of, where they were playing at the time / in what division etc. I could do the same with another 4 or 5 players, but i'm definitely not sad enough to spend a couple of hours hunting for the evidence you're demanding. So i've supplied you with an example. He also refused to accept the likes of Savage and Hartson back into the fold - before you ask, no i'm not going to spend the time looking at who were selected ahead of them at that point, but think we can agree they were among the best 20 or so players we had at the time.
|
|
|
|
Toshack
Nov 4, 2022 10:22:47 GMT
via mobile
Post by welshrover on Nov 4, 2022 10:22:47 GMT
I don't wish to get involved in the debate thanks but notice you mention Coyne and Price.
Now my memory always lets me down on the first name of the goalkeeper we had called Ward at the time, anyone recall it?
|
|
|
|
Post by mrpicton79 on Nov 4, 2022 10:30:15 GMT
You're thinking of Darren Ward, back-up keeper under Hughes.
|
|
|
|
Post by mrpicton79 on Nov 4, 2022 10:35:23 GMT
I've had a butchers at the very first page of this thread from way back in 2010, Toshack's last days as Welsh manager. You can see the despair in every single post. Sure didn't seem like we were on the right road reading that.
|
|
|
|
Post by mrpicton79 on Nov 4, 2022 10:42:41 GMT
Who? I'll leave it alone when you answer this. But you haven't yet. If what you are saying is correct there should be a multitude of examples. You've only been able to mention Danny Coyne/Lewis Price. Is that it? We're talking about 15 years ago. It took me 20mins to work out when Hennessey was brought in, who he was selected ahead of, where they were playing at the time / in what division etc. I could do the same with another 4 or 5 players, but i'm definitely not sad enough to spend a couple of hours hunting for the evidence you're demanding. So i've supplied you with an example. He also refused to accept the likes of Savage and Hartson back into the fold - before you ask, no i'm not going to spend the time looking at who were selected ahead of them at that point, but think we can agree they were among the best 20 or so players we had at the time. Let's have them then lol. You're making the claims confidently enough so you should be able to rattle off plenty of examples. |
|
|
|
Toshack
Nov 4, 2022 22:04:14 GMT
via mobile
Post by conwy10 on Nov 4, 2022 22:04:14 GMT
But to be fair in recent years we've qualified for 3 major tournament but still lost to Albania, drew 0-0 to Estonia, scraped past Azerbijian. We nearly lost to Belarus... I think regardless of what we do we'll always have those results come up every now and again. That 2016 team reached a European Semi Final but along the way had to dig deep to beat Andorra 2-1. Show me a country that doesn't have the odd dodgy result against 'weaker' sides. Even in the last round of WC qualifiers Sweden lost to Georgia, the Dutch drew with Montenegro, Germany lost to North Macedonia. Italy drew games with Bulgaria and an out of form Northern Ireland and then lost their play-off against North Macedonia just after winning the Euros. It's part of international football. I understand there will be the odd bad result, just using it to prove a point that we can't cherry pick results and hold it against him when in reality bad results will always be a thing for us. |
|
|
|
Post by rushlegend on Nov 4, 2022 22:47:18 GMT
Show me a country that doesn't have the odd dodgy result against 'weaker' sides.
Even in the last round of WC qualifiers Sweden lost to Georgia, the Dutch drew with Montenegro, Germany lost to North Macedonia. Italy drew games with Bulgaria and an out of form Northern Ireland and then lost their play-off against North Macedonia just after winning the Euros. It's part of international football.
Exactly!!! - France drew 0-0 at "home" to Luxembourg in qualifying and still won the World Cup (2018) four years ago!!!!
|
|
|
|
Post by saints19 on Nov 5, 2022 10:51:06 GMT
To be fair, I would say "terrible" is selling Toshack short a bit. There were some impressive results, like the 5-2 win in Slovakia, the 0-0 in Germany, 3-0 win against Scotland, a win in Denmark albeit in a friendly. It wasn't all bad. I agree with staying on too long though. I don't think it's selling him short at all. The two competitive results you mention were nice enough but they happened when any hopes of qualifying were long since gone. Friendlies are meaningless. Throughout his whole tenure whenever we had a crunch game to kick-start or save a campaign we shit the bed every single time. It's just nauseating reading the sort of comments saying he left us in perfect shape to qualify. The first game of the Euro 2012 campaign (his last) was one of the worst performances of the lot. I remember the 0-1 scoreline in Montenegro really flattering us that day. We were as far away from it as we'd ever been. Were Slovakia's hopes of qualifying long gone when we beat them 5-2? Because that would be the test of that result. And in competitive games where ranking points and coefficient points were/are at stake I'm not sure any team ever does anything but play to win. So I wouldn't say it's fair to completely write off the positives. Throughout most of Toshack's reign we had little to no chance of qualification because we were explicitly rebuilding for the future. I'd argue that he stayed too long in the job but that his tenure wasnt a total disaster but to each their own. |
|
|
|
Post by allezlesrouges on Nov 5, 2022 23:17:54 GMT
Craig davies! The only one i used to love dont know what happened to him though was freddy eastwood That was a weird one, went from scoring an absolute belter on his debut Vs Bulgaria and I started to get carried away thinking he was the consistent goal scoring striker we lacked and then just suddenly seemed to go shit at club level and his career dropped off a cliff very quickly. If anyone wanted to reminisce about his goal against Bulgaria here it is below! 4 goals in 11 games for Wales in the end - not a bad record haha www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsUzNMmQjx0 |
|
|
|
Post by allezlesrouges on Nov 6, 2022 0:00:18 GMT
I have no skin in this game as I am too young to have been around for the Toshack era, so I think maybe I'm the right person to sum up given that I've read plenty about Toshack and everything said here about him, and seen the documentary as well
Firstly, there's a section of people here who are justifying their clear dislike of Toshack by falsely suggesting other posters are saying things like "we were really successful under Tosh", "Tosh's name deserves to be up in lights", "Tosh deserves an absurd amount of praise". I haven't seen anyone say anything like this. In fact all the praise I've seen for Tosh is qualified along with statements highlighting some of Tosh's detractions. What we've got is some people saying Tosh is completely terrible, and some people saying there's good & bad
I'm going to try and cover all of these nuances by quickly covering them in bullet points;
- Did Tosh piss off too many of our established pros? Undoubtedly
- With better man management, would we have performed better in qualifying by keeping these seniors around? Undoubtedly
- Did pissing off those seniors cause/contribute to Tosh's drive for youth? Yes
- Would he have gone for some younger options anyway? Yes, Flynn made it clear Tosh told him this was the plan in their first meeting
- Was turning to youth the best thing for the long term of our national team? Undoubtedly
- Did Tosh need to cast a wide net of eligible players because of problems he caused? Yes
- Did he go about this in a controlled, structured, or discerning way? No
- Did "throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks" cause us to field a lot of shit? Yes
- Did it unearth some unlikely gems for us? Yes - Ash, Vokes & HRK validating success stories of this
- Without Tosh would we have played better football, used better players, and had better qualification campaigns? Yes
- Without Tosh would we have had the squad togetherness/experience that enabled our 2016 highs? No
Tosh doesn't deserve endless high praise (not that anyone here or in the documentary seems to be giving him that). Equally, he does not deserve endless slander either. He was a flawed manager who made a lot of bad short term decisions, some good long term decisions, got a bit lucky finding some eligible gems, had terrible performances/results, but gave many of our 2016 squad the caps they needed to achieve the unthinkable
I've enjoyed reading everyone's opinion on Tosh as someone who didn't witness his reign, and I hope this summarises the middle-ground and nuances of his reign sufficiently enough to encompass everyone's views
|
|
|
|
Post by iot on Nov 6, 2022 9:16:51 GMT
Entirely agree with this
|
|
|
|
Post by bale-droed on Nov 13, 2022 13:54:35 GMT
m.youtube.com/watch?v=tR6qq2Q42g0Serious question. How come there’s no video of Bale, Ramsey and Kanu heaping praise on Toshack? Or if I’m wrong and there is one can someone please share it? If they say Speed is the one who changed everything and made everything far better then doesn’t that mean Toshack did a terrible job? Our best players praise the starting point of our success as after he left.
|
|
|
|
Post by hooky on Nov 13, 2022 14:23:46 GMT
They all praised him and Flynn in there own way right?
Watch the together stronger BBC episodes on iplayer.
Certainly Ramsey gave him credit.
Bet Luke Harris would have got a cap under Toshack by now and he would have played for our U21 over the last 12 months for sure!
|
|
|
|
Post by bale-droed on Nov 13, 2022 14:54:46 GMT
They all praised him and Flynn in there own way right? Watch the together stronger BBC episodes on iplayer. Certainly Ramsey gave him credit. Bet Luke Harris would have got a cap under Toshack by now and he would have played for our U21 over the last 12 months for sure! He would be playing left back, captain, eating oven chips with fish fingers and afraid of players who were over 30 |
|
|
|
Post by mrpicton79 on Nov 14, 2022 7:33:22 GMT
m.youtube.com/watch?v=tR6qq2Q42g0Serious question. How come there’s no video of Bale, Ramsey and Kanu heaping praise on Toshack? Or if I’m wrong and there is one can someone please share it? If they say Speed is the one who changed everything and made everything far better then doesn’t that mean Toshack did a terrible job? Our best players praise the starting point of our success as after he left. That's a good video. Of course it will offend a lot of the Tosh fans, but that's exactly how I remember it, and I have a pretty good memory (I think lol). It's just a fact that the Toshack era set us backwards pretty badly and it was the changes under Speed that laid the foundations for our subsequent success. Yes people are going to say he "brought through" the Bale/Ramsey/Allen generation, and I'm sure they were going to end up being golfers had Tosh not been in charge at that time so granted maybe I'm being a little short-sighted in that respect. |
|
|
|
Post by njdragon on Nov 14, 2022 17:57:17 GMT
I cba to look back at the stats but I reckon we kept the ball a lot more under tosh compared to previous managers, he moved us more towards a continental style of play, keeping possession, ball on the floor etc, and put a lot of trust in young players to do this. I remember moments like Ledley’s goal away in Russia & Rambo’s masterclass against Scotland…. But realistically our players weren’t good enough to qualify at the time, not sure any manager in the world would’ve taken us to a tournament between 2006-2012 … The youth revolution is widely acknowledged but all bar the most ardent of Toshack Detractors. However, what has been missed by some though not by you and I is his greatest achievement that was to change the Wales play from a British up & at em to the A European play possession style. That was absolutely essential to make us sustainable for the international era. To change the way we play and revolution player development at the same time still ranks as the biggest turnaround that I can remember in football. Terrific Television last night - not an easy watch for the Toshack detractors. Hey Toshfan this is worth a listen to, Andy johnson did get asked by tosh to come back but i will concede was more to do with johnson than tosh fb.watch/gOezH8LIEP/ |
|
|
|
Post by garynysmon on Nov 14, 2022 18:32:11 GMT
The youth revolution is widely acknowledged but all bar the most ardent of Toshack Detractors. However, what has been missed by some though not by you and I is his greatest achievement that was to change the Wales play from a British up & at em to the A European play possession style. That was absolutely essential to make us sustainable for the international era. To change the way we play and revolution player development at the same time still ranks as the biggest turnaround that I can remember in football. Terrific Television last night - not an easy watch for the Toshack detractors. Hey Toshfan this is worth a listen to, Andy johnson did get asked by tosh to come back but i will concede was more to do with johnson than tosh fb.watch/gOezH8LIEP/Having listened to that its no wonder we never qualified for anything... |
|
|
|
Post by njdragon on Nov 14, 2022 19:45:18 GMT
Hey Toshfan this is worth a listen to, Andy johnson did get asked by tosh to come back but i will concede was more to do with johnson than tosh fb.watch/gOezH8LIEP/Having listened to that its no wonder we never qualified for anything... it was an unprofessional attitude from the players as well - shocking isn't it im not too fussed on johnson after that |
|
|
|
Toshack
Nov 14, 2022 20:46:05 GMT
via mobile
Post by evans1282 on Nov 14, 2022 20:46:05 GMT
Having listened to that its no wonder we never qualified for anything... it was an unprofessional attitude from the players as well - shocking isn't it im not too fussed on johnson after that I think even this poor example of an international player was part of the development,the way young players are taught the values and culture of the squad,talking with an Irish friend and he talks with genuine envy at how we recruit our dual qualified players,but more importantly how we retain them,and instill a knowledge and appreciation of being Welsh. |
|
|
|
Post by toshfan on Nov 14, 2022 23:13:48 GMT
Hey Toshfan this is worth a listen to, Andy johnson did get asked by tosh to come back but i will concede was more to do with johnson than tosh fb.watch/gOezH8LIEP/Thank you. I have already listened to it. I simply do not believe that Toshack asked him to come out of retirement. Why not? 1. Toshack said he would never do so. I have said, more than once, that I do wish that he had asked Speedo to come out of retirement. 2. Johnson, in the same interview, said: a. That Wales drew 1-1 with Russia b. That Sparky was sacked. |
|
|
|
Post by toshfan on Nov 14, 2022 23:18:20 GMT
m.youtube.com/watch?v=tR6qq2Q42g0Serious question. How come there’s no video of Bale, Ramsey and Kanu heaping praise on Toshack? Or if I’m wrong and there is one can someone please share it? If they say Speed is the one who changed everything and made everything far better then doesn’t that mean Toshack did a terrible job? Our best players praise the starting point of our success as after he left. I am objective and totally accept that Bale, Ramsey, Allen, Kanu, Ash etc loved the step change delivered by Speedo. Lots of references made to the removal of excuses. They also clearly loved working with him. You are less objective in refusing to acknowledge their positive comments about Toshack and Flynn, particularly their role in the youth revolution. I guess you have never heard the very complimentary remarks from Carl Robinson, Hennessey or Joe Ledley? |
|
|
|
Toshack
Nov 15, 2022 0:43:04 GMT
via mobile
Post by bale-droed on Nov 15, 2022 0:43:04 GMT
No I have not. That’s why I came on a welsh football forum and in a thread called Toshack to ask if there was videos praising him
|
|
|
|
Toshack
Nov 15, 2022 7:11:46 GMT
via mobile
Post by njdragon on Nov 15, 2022 7:11:46 GMT
Hey Toshfan this is worth a listen to, Andy johnson did get asked by tosh to come back but i will concede was more to do with johnson than tosh fb.watch/gOezH8LIEP/Thank you. I have already listened to it. I simply do not believe that Toshack asked him to come out of retirement. Why not? 1. Toshack said he would never do so. I have said, more than once, that I do wish that he had asked Speedo to come out of retirement. 2. Johnson, in the same interview, said: a. That Wales drew 1-1 with Russia b. That Sparky was sacked. He stated in the interview he came to see him. I read this also. How much proof do you need. It wasn’t intended to be a pop just thought you may find it interesting. |
|
|
|
Toshack
Nov 15, 2022 7:14:23 GMT
via mobile
Post by njdragon on Nov 15, 2022 7:14:23 GMT
I am objective and totally accept that Bale, Ramsey, Allen, Kanu, Ash etc loved the step change delivered by Speedo. Lots of references made to the removal of excuses. They also clearly loved working with him. You are less objective in refusing to acknowledge their positive comments about Toshack and Flynn, particularly their role in the youth revolution. I guess you have never heard the very complimentary remarks from Carl Robinson, Hennessey or Joe Ledley? No I have not. That’s why I came on a welsh football forum and in a thread called Toshack to ask if there was videos praising him I watched the faw live feed with Earnie, Friday I think And he specifically stated all this started with speed. Didn’t mention tosh, got the feeling when the others mention him It was through gritted teeth… especially Ramsey. Watch it again. |
|
|
|
Toshack
Nov 15, 2022 7:52:16 GMT
via mobile
Post by marsvolta on Nov 15, 2022 7:52:16 GMT
I’m not going to add anything to the Tosh argument because we’re going round in circles on that, but what I would say is that I wouldn’t take anything Johnson says in this interview as gospel.
He sounds like the bloke you meet in a pub who tells wildly exaggerated stories whilst slurping down his beers. He’s even clearly had/having a few beers in this interview.
I will say that I didn’t know Johnson was such a character though.
|
|
|
|
Toshack
Nov 15, 2022 8:01:29 GMT
via mobile
jbt95 likes this
Post by aboutaboy on Nov 15, 2022 8:01:29 GMT
I think Toshfan has a point. Johnson also stated that he quit wales because Hughes dropped him for the home game against Russia. I could have sworn he played because I remember slating Hughes with my Dad that he actually picked him for the game and remembering him being completely useless!
A quick check on the starting 11 of that game proves I was right. This guy just fabricated his stories. He was garbage for wales anyway.
|
|
