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Post by iot on Dec 20, 2023 22:03:16 GMT
Perhaps Cooper's weakness was being too cautious I understand the other 2 full backs may have been more consistent and defensive minded than Neco, but that mindset clearly was not enough to produce decent results. We will never know but perhaps if Cooper valued the extra attacking threat a full back like Neco brings and backed him then the results may have been better and he may have survived. Football has moved on from preferring the defensive full back over the attacking option, as demonstrated by Liverpool which nurtured Neco. Why on earth he bought Neco in the first place if he did not trust him or value what he brought is beyond me. Look at the guys flopping for them this year who have kept their place while Neco just vanished until the last 2 games where he made a great impact - too little too late for Cooper! As much as it's tempting to go with that type of narrative, the reality as I recall it is that Neco started off as first choice right back for the first 10-15 games last season. He was a little shaky at times and so they brought in Aurier to compete with him, and in fairness I think Aurier played better. Obviously it was all about survival, no room for sentiment. Neco got another chance towards the end of last season and was performing better, only for Brennan to break his jaw! Fast forward to this season, their full backs have been among their better performers - there was a run of games where both Toffolo and Aina were chipping in with goals and assists - I can't see the justification for dropping them in that scenario. Neco bided his time, and he's done fantastically well these past couple of games. He'd won the shirt back and it was up to him to keep it. That may not immediately be the case with the new manager so I don't think this is a good thing for Neco per se, although I'm sure he'll get his opportunity to keep the shirt.
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Post by underwood on Feb 17, 2024 17:10:38 GMT
Not being missed at Nottingham Forest. Maybe he should have played Neco more often?
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Post by playslikeiniesta on Mar 26, 2024 23:24:30 GMT
I think we can all agree that it’s time for Page to go, we can’t progress any further under him and he will waste this current generation. Is Steve Cooper the man to take us forward for the WC2026 campaign?
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Post by jimexotic on Mar 26, 2024 23:29:14 GMT
Cooper was known for having poor man management skills when the going got tough, he was starting to lose the dressing room at Forest. Apparently he was terrible with McKenna. I don't think he's an improvement on Page right now, I'm happy for Page to stay, he's managed the post Bale and Ramsey wind down very well in my opinion.
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Post by saturn9 on Mar 26, 2024 23:36:56 GMT
Cooper was known for having poor man management skills when the going got tough, he was starting to lose the dressing room at Forest. Apparently he was terrible with McKenna. I don't think he's an improvement on Page right now, I'm happy for Page to stay, he's managed the post Bale and Ramsey wind down very well in my opinion. It's a no from me on Cooper, have a feeling Neco and Cooper are not the best of buddies.
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Post by conwy10 on Mar 26, 2024 23:44:47 GMT
Cooper was known for having poor man management skills when the going got tough, he was starting to lose the dressing room at Forest. Apparently he was terrible with McKenna. I don't think he's an improvement on Page right now, I'm happy for Page to stay, he's managed the post Bale and Ramsey wind down very well in my opinion. How come he's a media darling if that's true? Not disputing it, just curious. The media seem to love him.
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Post by jimexotic on Mar 26, 2024 23:56:45 GMT
Cooper was known for having poor man management skills when the going got tough, he was starting to lose the dressing room at Forest. Apparently he was terrible with McKenna. I don't think he's an improvement on Page right now, I'm happy for Page to stay, he's managed the post Bale and Ramsey wind down very well in my opinion. How come he's a media darling if that's true? Not disputing it, just curious. The media seem to love him. No idea, maybe he interviews well, is polite to them but I know that he handled things with McKenna very badly and upset a few others in the process, I think Worrall was another. No idea that his relationship with Neco was like so I don't want to comment on that but my brother in law is a die hard Forest fan, he loved Cooper but he agreed that the time had come and it was more to do with his man management than anything else. I love our team spirit and I don't want to run the risk of ruining it, Page still has something decent to offer us, plenty have failed with better at their disposal in the past.
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Post by maelor on Mar 27, 2024 0:19:00 GMT
I think we can all agree that it’s time for Page to go, we can’t progress any further under him and he will waste this current generation. Is Steve Cooper the man to take us forward for the WC2026 campaign? I'm not a Page at all costs man but I think it's certain that not ALL of us agree that he must go. We've just lost a knife-edge game against a side of similar ability. We're also unbeaten in the last 7(?) games.
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Post by fiveattheback on Mar 27, 2024 0:25:32 GMT
Cooper was known for having poor man management skills when the going got tough, he was starting to lose the dressing room at Forest. Apparently he was terrible with McKenna. I don't think he's an improvement on Page right now, I'm happy for Page to stay, he's managed the post Bale and Ramsey wind down very well in my opinion. Practically everything from their careers as coaches shows Cooper is an improvement on Page
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Post by jimexotic on Mar 27, 2024 12:35:57 GMT
Cooper was known for having poor man management skills when the going got tough, he was starting to lose the dressing room at Forest. Apparently he was terrible with McKenna. I don't think he's an improvement on Page right now, I'm happy for Page to stay, he's managed the post Bale and Ramsey wind down very well in my opinion. Practically everything from their careers as coaches shows Cooper is an improvement on Page Every England manager of the last thirty years or so had better CV's than Southgate but he's done better than all of them. Mourinho has an amazing CV but I wouldn't want him anywhere near the Wales set up. I don't think Steve Cooper would be good for Wales, I certainly don't think he'd be better than Rob Page, who was a penalty shootout away from taking us to a third tournament in a row and has been managing losing arguably our best player of all time.
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Post by fiveattheback on Mar 27, 2024 12:55:40 GMT
Practically everything from their careers as coaches shows Cooper is an improvement on Page Every England manager of the last thirty years or so had better CV's than Southgate but he's done better than all of them. Mourinho has an amazing CV but I wouldn't want him anywhere near the Wales set up. I don't think Steve Cooper would be good for Wales, I certainly don't think he'd be better than Rob Page, who was a penalty shootout away from taking us to a third tournament in a row and has been managing losing arguably our best player of all time. A penalty shootout that we should never have needed as we ballsed up the group by picking up 1 point against Armenia Are you implying Page took us to the last Euros? Giggs was still manager at that point. He did well stepping up in trying circumstances but is imo tactically limited and is unable to make changes during the game. These are the exact same complaints levelled at him 3 years ago and there's been no change Cooper is a better manager than Page and, in my opinion, would get more out of these players. We have a good squad of experienced international players, there was almost 500 caps on that pitch for Wales last night with all but 1 of the starters having played at a major tournament. Look, if Page is open to bringing in some fresh ideas then I'd probably be happy for him to stay. But you look at the Wales bench and his 2 assistants are Kit Symons and Alan Knill
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Post by jbt95 on Mar 27, 2024 12:56:59 GMT
Cooper isn’t going to manage Wales anytime soon.
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Post by iot on Mar 27, 2024 13:44:05 GMT
Every England manager of the last thirty years or so had better CV's than Southgate but he's done better than all of them. Mourinho has an amazing CV but I wouldn't want him anywhere near the Wales set up. I don't think Steve Cooper would be good for Wales, I certainly don't think he'd be better than Rob Page, who was a penalty shootout away from taking us to a third tournament in a row and has been managing losing arguably our best player of all time. A penalty shootout that we should never have needed as we ballsed up the group by picking up 1 point against Armenia Are you implying Page took us to the last Euros? Giggs was still manager at that point. He did well stepping up in trying circumstances but is imo tactically limited and is unable to make changes during the game. These are the exact same complaints levelled at him 3 years ago and there's been no change Cooper is a better manager than Page and, in my opinion, would get more out of these players. We have a good squad of experienced international players, there was almost 500 caps on that pitch for Wales last night with all but 1 of the starters having played at a major tournament. Look, if Page is open to bringing in some fresh ideas then I'd probably be happy for him to stay. But you look at the Wales bench and his 2 assistants are Kit Symons and Alan Knill Have to pick you up on that first comment. He didn’t balls up the group, he ballsed it up against Armenia, but that has to be balanced against the Croatia results. You can’t have it both ways. I think 14 points would have been par for the course, we ended up on 12 (and robbed of another two by the ref in the Turkey game). Performances have been on an upward trajectory since Bale and Ramsey’s retirement.
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Post by fiveattheback on Mar 27, 2024 13:57:00 GMT
A penalty shootout that we should never have needed as we ballsed up the group by picking up 1 point against Armenia Are you implying Page took us to the last Euros? Giggs was still manager at that point. He did well stepping up in trying circumstances but is imo tactically limited and is unable to make changes during the game. These are the exact same complaints levelled at him 3 years ago and there's been no change Cooper is a better manager than Page and, in my opinion, would get more out of these players. We have a good squad of experienced international players, there was almost 500 caps on that pitch for Wales last night with all but 1 of the starters having played at a major tournament. Look, if Page is open to bringing in some fresh ideas then I'd probably be happy for him to stay. But you look at the Wales bench and his 2 assistants are Kit Symons and Alan Knill Have to pick you up on that first comment. He didn’t balls up the group, he ballsed it up against Armenia, but that has to be balanced against the Croatia results. You can’t have it both ways. I think 14 points would have been par for the course, we ended up on 12 (and robbed of another two by the ref in the Turkey game). Performances have been on an upward trajectory since Bale and Ramsey’s retirement. 3 wins from 8 in a group we were seeded second for. That's ballsing it up in my opinion. I don't buy the idea that we should balance the Armenia results against what we got against Croatia as if that makes it ok. Our inability to do the job against Armenia rendered a good scalp almost pointless as we were left playing catch up needing results to go our way due to our inability to win home or away against Armenia Croatia picked up 12 points from Latvia & Armenia which meant they only really needed 1 more win from us and Turkey to get through. Turkey managed 10 putting them in a good spot where good results against us probably gets them through, our 7 points from those 2 left us with too much to do.
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Post by winsumluzsum on Mar 27, 2024 14:24:03 GMT
Yes, but if it wasn't for the ref we would have got three points against Turkiye at home. That was daylight robbery.
I even have a bit of sympathy with Page for the Armenia result at home. They had an abysmal record going into that game, they also had an unknown quantity in the form of Ranos. So our over-confidence was understandable if ultimately misplaced. They scored 4 goals from 4 extremely clinical efforts on target, and the xG was something like 2-1 in our favour. Playing Ramsey as a DM was a big mistake, but it's important to be balanced in criticising Page. Sometimes Shyte happens.
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Post by iot on Mar 27, 2024 16:52:49 GMT
Have to pick you up on that first comment. He didn’t balls up the group, he ballsed it up against Armenia, but that has to be balanced against the Croatia results. You can’t have it both ways. I think 14 points would have been par for the course, we ended up on 12 (and robbed of another two by the ref in the Turkey game). Performances have been on an upward trajectory since Bale and Ramsey’s retirement. 3 wins from 8 in a group we were seeded second for. That's ballsing it up in my opinion. I don't buy the idea that we should balance the Armenia results against what we got against Croatia as if that makes it ok. Our inability to do the job against Armenia rendered a good scalp almost pointless as we were left playing catch up needing results to go our way due to our inability to win home or away against Armenia Croatia picked up 12 points from Latvia & Armenia which meant they only really needed 1 more win from us and Turkey to get through. Turkey managed 10 putting them in a good spot where good results against us probably gets them through, our 7 points from those 2 left us with too much to do. We were cheated out of 4 wins, which would have been par for the course, 5 wins would have been a great return. Either way, when judging the performance in the round, you can't just hone in on one set of results and ignore others if you're trying to be objective. It's just being selective to suit a certain agenda
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Post by dai on Mar 27, 2024 17:29:35 GMT
Not sure if I fancy Cooper, mainly based on his antics regarding Johnson at Forest. How much of a Welshman is he?
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Post by fiveattheback on Mar 27, 2024 17:32:43 GMT
3 wins from 8 in a group we were seeded second for. That's ballsing it up in my opinion. I don't buy the idea that we should balance the Armenia results against what we got against Croatia as if that makes it ok. Our inability to do the job against Armenia rendered a good scalp almost pointless as we were left playing catch up needing results to go our way due to our inability to win home or away against Armenia Croatia picked up 12 points from Latvia & Armenia which meant they only really needed 1 more win from us and Turkey to get through. Turkey managed 10 putting them in a good spot where good results against us probably gets them through, our 7 points from those 2 left us with too much to do. We were cheated out of 4 wins, which would have been par for the course, 5 wins would have been a great return. Either way, when judging the performance in the round, you can't just hone in on one set of results and ignore others if you're trying to be objective. It's just being selective to suit a certain agenda And you're honing in on a refereeing decision that really had no bearing on the outcome of the group anyway, we'd still end up 2 points behind Croatia (and wed all be moaning even more about failing to beat Armenia). I'm focusing on Armenia as for me those 2 games are where the campaign was lost. Our inability to pick up those results against Armenia, especially at home, left us playing catch up with the rest of the group and needing results to go our way, not unlike the 2018 World Cup qualifiers where we were left with too much to do at the end. 5 wins should be the aim as that tends to be enough to qualify from a 5 team group, indeed it's what Croatia & Turkey achieved. Logically you should aim to get those wins against the group's weakest teams, that's what Croatia did and that's what Turkey almost did (3 wins and a draw). If we get 3 or 4 wins from Latvia & Armenia as those two did that makes our job a lot easier. Failing to beat the perceived weaker teams in the group then puts enormous pressure on games against better teams and starts to see people doubting themselves in what are suddenly "must win" or "must not lose". Having lost to Armenia we all of a sudden go to Turkey needing a result off the back of shipping 4 to a team ranked 93rd in the world.
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Post by iot on Mar 27, 2024 19:18:00 GMT
We were cheated out of 4 wins, which would have been par for the course, 5 wins would have been a great return. Either way, when judging the performance in the round, you can't just hone in on one set of results and ignore others if you're trying to be objective. It's just being selective to suit a certain agenda And you're honing in on a refereeing decision that really had no bearing on the outcome of the group anyway, we'd still end up 2 points behind Croatia (and wed all be moaning even more about failing to beat Armenia). I'm focusing on Armenia as for me those 2 games are where the campaign was lost. Our inability to pick up those results against Armenia, especially at home, left us playing catch up with the rest of the group and needing results to go our way, not unlike the 2018 World Cup qualifiers where we were left with too much to do at the end. 5 wins should be the aim as that tends to be enough to qualify from a 5 team group, indeed it's what Croatia & Turkey achieved. Logically you should aim to get those wins against the group's weakest teams, that's what Croatia did and that's what Turkey almost did (3 wins and a draw). If we get 3 or 4 wins from Latvia & Armenia as those two did that makes our job a lot easier. Failing to beat the perceived weaker teams in the group then puts enormous pressure on games against better teams and starts to see people doubting themselves in what are suddenly "must win" or "must not lose". Having lost to Armenia we all of a sudden go to Turkey needing a result off the back of shipping 4 to a team ranked 93rd in the world. No I’m looking at it in the round, not being selective and singling out individual results in an 8-game campaign. Yes, obviously it’s always important to try to secure maximum points from the weakest sides, but it’s never been that easy for us - not under Coleman, Giggs or Page. We only just scraped wins against Andorra and Cyprus with 80+min winners; we lost points to Georgia and scraped another later win against Moldova in the following campaign; scraped a win against Azerbaijan with a horrendous performance under Giggs (as well as losing against the second worst ranked side), and lost points at home to Estonia last campaign. So it feels like Page is being held to a different standard simply because he’s unpopular and it suits a particular agenda. We always run the risk of slipping up against supposed minnows, we’re not to at the level where we can be confident that we’ll blow them away 9 times out of 10 - that’s always been the case. Agree 5 wins should be the aim and would be a successful campaign, I feel 4 would be par for the course and an average campaign, and 3 is below average. That’s a fair assessment of the campaign - below average performance following a campaign where we exceeded expectations and made history. You also can’t ignore the trajectory of performances and results where we’ve been on an upward curve.
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