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Post by fourfourtwo on Nov 17, 2018 11:20:13 GMT
I agree with the sentiments expressed by Pendragon and Myrddin in their posts. The Dummett foul on the edge of the box and his subsequent departure through injury was definitely the turning point. After that we had a couple of close shaves, and it seemed inevitable that the Danes would score. We are desperately lacking a centre forward, we created some good chances from crosses but had no-one to put them away.I think maybe Bale would have been better deployed up front rather than out wide. I was surprised Giggs chose to introduce Wilson rather than Vokes off the bench, as I think we crying out for some physical presence up front. Lawrence had a poor game, and I think is a bit of a one trick pony, all too easily worked out by experienced defenders. Ramsey was wasted in that deeper position. Only Allen and Brookes stood out for me. Bale was good in flashes, but for a world class player he does need to impose himself on games more against the better quality sides. I was so frustrated and disappointed with the performance I must admit I got up and left when the Danes scored their second, and missed Bale's goal. Oh well, serves me right !
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Post by 1gwaunview on Nov 17, 2018 11:49:07 GMT
The Good,The Bad and The Ugly sums up last night for me.
Giggs was out thought tactically by Hareide, and we were too kamikaze from the off.
Was Aaron Ramsey playing? Poor Joe Allen was run off his feet trying to cover the whole of the midfield by himself for much of the game.
Tyler Roberts wrong choice on the night, perhaps Vokes should have started.
There's a long way to go before we really challenge the better teams as Denmark and Uruguay have proved.
Very naïve!!
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Post by pendragon on Nov 17, 2018 12:49:49 GMT
Judging by past experience, I think Allen works better in a midfield partnership role with Ampadu and Smith, rather than Ramsey.
I think we lost the game because we lost too many chances and made at least one huge defensive error to concede the first goal.
Let's look at the positives - we've secured pot 2 status for the Euro 2020 qualifiers.
This game might affect our seeding but it won't prevent us qualifying for the next tournament.
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Post by ae15 on Nov 17, 2018 12:54:36 GMT
I can't think of anything that would set this team back further than playing Vokes. He is a complete distraction in this line up, no one understands the way he plays to pick up his flick ons and our defenders can use his presence as an excuse to lump the ball up when we're struggling to break teams down, as seen against Austria last year.
The biggest mistake was starting Ramsey in a two with Allen. It completely nullified his game and left us without proper protection in front of the back four. This again, was a mistake we made against Austria, which on that occasion Coleman rectified at half time.
I really do think Tyler Roberts has potential. He's only 19, and still needs to learn how to score goals. Our biggest weakness at the moment is our lack of an out and out striker to fit into this system. When Bale got into those wide areas yesterday he looked extremely dangerous and put a couple of great balls in, which a good poacher would have finished. Someone like Glenn Murray would be the missing piece in the jigsaw at the moment.
Giggs is still learning, and I'm happy he's taken the time of this tournament to try and find the right balance for this side. Hopefully after Tuesday, or by the time the next qualifiers start, he'll know what his strongest team is.
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Post by melynwy on Nov 17, 2018 13:16:23 GMT
I don't get Ramsey.... why does he decide with all his experience to just goal hang up front Are you talking about yesterday’s game?? Ramsey played very deep. Very often deeper than Allen. I thought he put in a decent defensive shift.
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Post by zenith on Nov 17, 2018 13:40:21 GMT
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Post by fiveattheback on Nov 17, 2018 14:23:26 GMT
That picture has reminded me of Hennessey's performance last night, could somebody please explain to m what he was doing for the first goal?
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Post by cymruramdcfc on Nov 17, 2018 14:35:09 GMT
That picture has reminded me of Hennessey's performance last night, could somebody please explain to m what he was doing for the first goal? I would be asking how our defence being split apart
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2018 14:39:55 GMT
The pass to put him through for that first goal was perfection.
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Post by rushlegend on Nov 17, 2018 14:59:46 GMT
Spain defeat was a friendly - so we still haven't lost 2 in a row at home since 2012!!!
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Post by rushlegend on Nov 17, 2018 15:00:31 GMT
Competitively i meant
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Post by melynwy on Nov 17, 2018 15:04:05 GMT
That picture has reminded me of Hennessey's performance last night, could somebody please explain to m what he was doing for the first goal? I would be asking how our defence being split apart I feel Hennessey dealt poorly with both goals. If he is to take the starting position that he did with the first goal, then he has to rush out of his box and get to the ball before the attacker does. If he is not willing to do that, then he needs to adopt a deeper starting position, so that he can rush out later and put the attacker under pressure. As it is, he had a high starting position but then tracked back as the attacker got the ball, instantly giving the attacker an advantage and more time to think and act. It was as it always is with Hennessey. Almost never looks to blame, but lets in a lot of goals that better goalkeepers would have intelligently dealt with far sooner. Hennessey has a knack of making half-decent shots look like screamers - due do his poor positioning and footwork he can't get anywhere near them, but it rarely obviously looks like bad goalkeeping.
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Post by 1gwaunview on Nov 17, 2018 17:07:14 GMT
I would be asking how our defence being split apart I feel Hennessey dealt poorly with both goals. If he is to take the starting position that he did with the first goal, then he has to rush out of his box and get to the ball before the attacker does. If he is not willing to do that, then he needs to adopt a deeper starting position, so that he can rush out later and put the attacker under pressure. As it is, he had a high starting position but then tracked back as the attacker got the ball, instantly giving the attacker an advantage and more time to think and act. It was as it always is with Hennessey. Almost never looks to blame, but lets in a lot of goals that better goalkeepers would have intelligently dealt with far sooner. Hennessey has a knack of making half-decent shots look like screamers - due do his poor positioning and footwork he can't get anywhere near them, but it rarely obviously looks like bad goalkeeping. What choice have we got? A happily bench warming Danny Ward who won't get a look in while Kasper Schmeichel remains at Leicester, or average lower league keepers who could be completely out of their depth.
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Post by rushy on Nov 17, 2018 18:16:33 GMT
I think my opinion of the game is really different to others. 3 missed headers should have scored, world class save from Schmeichel to stop that free kick, Brooks chance, all huge opportunities. Denmark goal was good play to slice open our defence and a poorly defended long throw. I thought we did brilliantly but we can’t switch off against good teams. Bale and Brooks were outstanding. I thought Lawrence was poor tonight. He’s like Bale and Brooks without the end product so it’s pointless him doing the rest. I can’t remember a cross, shot or pass he plays in a game. It’s just dribble until he gets fouled or tackled. Tyler Roberts I thought did ok, some good link up play but he’s still learning, glad when he went off though but I’d be happy to see him against Albania. I thought Allen did well, but I think he does better with someone who’ll do the dirty work alongside him. I’d much rather see a younger Ledley next to him than another tidy in possession player who won’t go in for a tackle. I would have put Allen alongside Bale and Brooks but I’m sure the whole point of the twin screen in midfield is to stop interplay in the heart of the pitch between strikers and midfield. Need to ask questions of Allen, Ramsey, Chester and Williams in there. I thought Gunter did well and thoroughly deserved to equal the record. Just a shame every crossing opportunity was on his left foot. I agree with most of this, but I think the expectations from Giggs of the younger players is too great at this point in time, and playing so many in such an important game didn't come off . Yes they are learning and gaining experience, however it was the greater experience and discipline shown by the Danes that won the day imo, which is why I believe Vokes would have done better than the inexperienced Roberts.
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Post by melynwy on Nov 17, 2018 19:17:01 GMT
I feel Hennessey dealt poorly with both goals. If he is to take the starting position that he did with the first goal, then he has to rush out of his box and get to the ball before the attacker does. If he is not willing to do that, then he needs to adopt a deeper starting position, so that he can rush out later and put the attacker under pressure. As it is, he had a high starting position but then tracked back as the attacker got the ball, instantly giving the attacker an advantage and more time to think and act. It was as it always is with Hennessey. Almost never looks to blame, but lets in a lot of goals that better goalkeepers would have intelligently dealt with far sooner. Hennessey has a knack of making half-decent shots look like screamers - due do his poor positioning and footwork he can't get anywhere near them, but it rarely obviously looks like bad goalkeeping. What choice have we got? A happily bench warming Danny Ward who won't get a look in while Peter Schmeichel remains at Leicester, or average lower league keepers who could be completely out of their depth. Quite. I’m not saying Hennessey should not play - he’s probably our best goalkeeper. I just don’t think he’s very good.
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Post by 1gwaunview on Nov 17, 2018 20:52:33 GMT
What choice have we got? A happily bench warming Danny Ward who won't get a look in while Kasper Schmeichel remains at Leicester, or average lower league keepers who could be completely out of their depth. Quite. I’m not saying Hennessey should not play - he’s probably our best goalkeeper. I just don’t think he’s very good.
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Post by pendragon on Nov 17, 2018 23:48:46 GMT
Denmark have mastered the art of doing absolutely nothing and getting comfortable wins. Denmark didn't exactly set the world alight at the World Cup but they're a well-drilled team and importantly, they've got Kasper Schmeichel, who along with Eriksen, has probably saved their skins on quite a few occasions.
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mj
steve evans
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Post by mj on Nov 18, 2018 10:38:59 GMT
Left this late I admit so apologies but have watched through now a couple of times. To my mind the second (and decisive) Danish goal appears to be down to two or three minutes of stupidity. Starting with the appalling tackle on Ampadu, Wales then went into a different game led by Ashley Williams. Instead of focusing on the job, they went into a Sunday league style ‘let them ave one back’ mentality. Indeed Williams has said as much since... that Ampadu (his own booking) was “what had to be done”. At the highest level this is a nonsense and a weakness. By switching from ‘defend with organisation’ to ‘revenge tactics’ gave Ericsson and his colleagues exactly what they wanted. A distracted defence who had lost sight of the initial crucial imperative, and so gave away space and time. Ericsson is seen in the move that led to the second goal signalling to his front men to drop a few yards off the challenges as he knew what was coming and they then smartly created a very well worked goal around lunging thoughtless Welsh challenges.
To my my mind this is where a captain stands out. Williams led the mindless fray from Wales when he should have bought time, emphasised that cool heads were crucial and been the example. He let the team down when his role demanded smarts.
We we gave the second goal away and really didn’t need to. It was Sunday league poor from Wales and poor leadership of young guys from Williams.
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Post by marsvolta on Nov 18, 2018 12:21:45 GMT
Dafydd Pritchard (BBC) has reported that Rodon picked up an injury in the last Swans game, so let's not go up in arms about his non-selection just yet... Strange that the first reaction was we all thought it was a snub or Giggs had something against Rodon rather than the far more likely, though slightly more boring,reason that Rodon is injured Though a statement or press release saying that Rodon is injured would have prevented this Amazingly, people on Twitter are still asking why Rodon hasn’t been called up.Surely everyone knows by now that he is injured
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Post by dai on Nov 18, 2018 13:46:31 GMT
Left this late I admit so apologies but have watched through now a couple of times. To my mind the second (and decisive) Danish goal appears to be down to two or three minutes of stupidity. Starting with the appalling tackle on Ampadu, Wales then went into a different game led by Ashley Williams. Instead of focusing on the job, they went into a Sunday league style ‘let them ave one back’ mentality. Indeed Williams has said as much since... that Ampadu (his own booking) was “what had to be done”. At the highest level this is a nonsense and a weakness. By switching from ‘defend with organisation’ to ‘revenge tactics’ gave Ericsson and his colleagues exactly what they wanted. A distracted defence who had lost sight of the initial crucial imperative, and so gave away space and time. Ericsson is seen in the move that led to the second goal signalling to his front men to drop a few yards off the challenges as he knew what was coming and they then smartly created a very well worked goal around lunging thoughtless Welsh challenges. To my my mind this is where a captain stands out. Williams led the mindless fray from Wales when he should have bought time, emphasised that cool heads were crucial and been the example. He let the team down when his role demanded smarts. We we gave the second goal away and really didn’t need to. It was Sunday league poor from Wales and poor leadership of young guys from Williams. Don't agree. We often get bullied and I agree with Giggs it's important to stand up for yourself. Denmark have a few bully boy players, Delaney, Jorgensen and Schmeicel are very physical players. I was pleased when Ampadu let that Danish boy have it, and Williams has my complete backing to wade in.
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Post by welshiron on Nov 18, 2018 17:52:36 GMT
A few observations
1. Why play with wingers and get lots of crosses in and not play Vokes
2. Tyler Roberts is not good enough yet.
3. Too open to counter attacks
4. Loved the fact Ampadu left one on them
5. Better finishing would of seen us win the game.
6. Not missed much with Dummett not playing. Really missed Ben
7 maybe 3 centre halves as we now have wing backs in Roberts and Davies who are decent going forward.
On the whole decent performance but not clinical enough
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Post by marsvolta on Nov 18, 2018 19:56:12 GMT
A few observations 1. Why play with wingers and get lots of crosses in and not play Vokes 2. Tyler Roberts is not good enough yet. 3. Too open to counter attacks 4. Loved the fact Ampadu left one on them 5. Better finishing would of seen us win the game. 6. Not missed much with Dummett not playing. Really missed Ben 7 maybe 3 centre halves as we now have wing backs in Roberts and Davies who are decent going forward. On the whole decent performance but not clinical enough 1, yup 2,yup 3,yup 4,yup 5,yup 6,yup 7, yup Full house, sir.
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Post by alarch on Nov 18, 2018 22:21:31 GMT
Watched the whole match again. The big picture is pretty much as I, and many others, saw it on first viewing - but some things deserve some emphasis I think.
First half we seemed to be playing with a 4-2-3-1. I say seemed, because although Allen and Ramsey played alongside each other in front of the back four for much of the half the partnership was woeful. The two opportunities that Denmark fashioned in the first 6 minutes were down to a poor defensive shape between them. In both cases Ramsey was in front of Allen, hoping to counter quickly. In both cases poor clearing headers from Allen fell to a Danish player with Ramsey then having to track back desperately. In the first case he at least managed to put pressure on Ericksen, who fired narrowly over. On the second occasion Delaney had acres of space - which he wasted with a poor shot.
The goal, when it came, was in the first instance a consequence of Lawrence losing possession on the edge of the Danish box with both defensive mids in advanced positions - with Ramsey just a couple of yards from the D. When Poulsen nutmegged Allen with the first forward pass, Ramsey was closer to the Welsh goal than Delaney, but he failed to react quickly enough to the counter, allowing Delaney to advance towards halfway unopposed. Poulsen's first time ball over the top was superb to be fair - but at the point that the ball left his boot Hennessey was 4 yards from the edge of the box. Jorgensen's only touch was the strike on goal - taken at the very edge of the box. Had Hennessey continued his initial advance he would easily have got to the ball ahead of Jorgensen - instead he stepped back a couple of meters before advancing again. Hennessey and our over-committed defensive mids were equally to blame for the goal.
It was interesting to hear Giggs blame poor defensive discipline for the loss - I wonder if he had the Allen/Ramsey axis specifically in mind.
Second half we definitely shifted to a 4-1-4-1, with Ramsey clearly playing in advance of Allen. Bale also shifted to the left wing, with some effect - most notably the cross that Brooks just failed to turn in at the near post early doors. At least second half there was a clearer delineation of responsibility - with Allen covering a huge amount of ground in front of the back four - and sticking closely to Ericksen. We still didn't exert much in the way of coherent, sustained pressure though - and the best opportunities after the initial Brooks effort fell to Denmark - first a poor effort from Poulsen from which he should have scored, and the late Braithwaite goal - which Ampadu should have done better with. Hennessey was also caught flat-footed and could have done better.
Talking of Ampadu he should have had a straight red for his retaliatory forearm smash into the back of the head of the Danish forward who'd just fouled him. He was lucky that the refs view was probably obscured by Allen - because it was a definite red. I don't buy this macho bolycs about leaving one on them - we could easily be going into our Euro campaign without Ampadu for two (or three?) matches for a violent conduct dismissal. Understandable reaction it may have been (although it's worth noting Lawrence had pushed Schone into the hoardings earlier without a similar reaction) - but encouraging players to mete out their own justice is an indulgence we can't afford.
One aspect of the Danish play was a clear preference for attacking the right side of our defence. Hardly a tactical masterstroke - given that we had a Championship rookie at right back, with a Premier League rookie in front of him, and a right-sided defensive mid, in Ramsey, who's ill suited to the role. Fortunately, no goals came from it - but they often found acres of space - with Roberts strangely tucked in to Chester. Contrast this obvious tactical ploy with our conspicuous failure to attack Dalsgaard - a Championship right-back with Brentford, with our most potent weapon - Bale. he rarely ventured onto the left (his natural position) - in spite of the fact that Dalsgaard was yellow-carded early in the second half. Giggs clearly missed a trick there.
I also can't understand why Giggs didn't bring on Vokes instead of Wilson. Most of our best chances were headed opportunities - and Roberts, Bale, Brooks and Gunter all delivered excellent crosses which could have yielded goals (Bale's header in the first half incidentally was directed down onto the back of the head of the defender in front of him rather than being a miss).
To be fair to Giggs I've focussed on the negative aspects of the performance - and had any of Chester, Bale and Brooks scored from their great opportunities the outcome and complexion might have been very different. But even so, I can't help feel that the way we set up was just as poor tactically as out in Aarhus. Ramsey is not a defensive mid - he's willing, but not able, lacking defensive instincts and the turn of pace to make up for his slow response to danger. Giggs can't even use the excuse of not wanting to risk the inexperienced Smith to play alongside Allen, given that he was willing to start with the even greener Tyler Roberts.
I just pray that Ampadu will get regular game time between now and the start of the Euros so that the case for playing him alongside Allen will be compelling. I never want to see Ramsey playing in a defensive pair against quality opposition again.
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Post by kingstonred on Nov 19, 2018 9:06:21 GMT
I feel for Giggs, as having to replace two defenders early on, really limited his options from the bench!
I asked the people around me in the Canton, Vokes or Wilson? All of them responded Wilson!
Had Dummett or Chester not gone injured, I'm sure we'd have seen Vokes AND Wilson!
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Post by alarch on Nov 19, 2018 11:11:05 GMT
I feel for Giggs, as having to replace two defenders early on, really limited his options from the bench! I asked the people around me in the Canton, Vokes or Wilson? All of them responded Wilson! Had Dummett or Chester not gone injured, I'm sure we'd have seen Vokes AND Wilson! And who would have made way for Vokes and Wilson? We were overloaded with attacking players as it was. There was more than a hint of Iceland at the Vetch all those years ago, under Mike England. Balance is so important - and it's something we sorely lacked against Denmark.
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Post by conwy10 on Nov 19, 2018 12:04:23 GMT
I would be asking how our defence being split apart I feel Hennessey dealt poorly with both goals. If he is to take the starting position that he did with the first goal, then he has to rush out of his box and get to the ball before the attacker does. If he is not willing to do that, then he needs to adopt a deeper starting position, so that he can rush out later and put the attacker under pressure. As it is, he had a high starting position but then tracked back as the attacker got the ball, instantly giving the attacker an advantage and more time to think and act. It was as it always is with Hennessey. Almost never looks to blame, but lets in a lot of goals that better goalkeepers would have intelligently dealt with far sooner. Hennessey has a knack of making half-decent shots look like screamers - due do his poor positioning and footwork he can't get anywhere near them, but it rarely obviously looks like bad goalkeeping. Surely we should fire the goalkeeping coach then? What is he going through with Hennessey all week? Positioning and footwork should be basic goalkeeper qualities.
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Post by conwy10 on Nov 19, 2018 12:09:00 GMT
I feel for Giggs, as having to replace two defenders early on, really limited his options from the bench! I asked the people around me in the Canton, Vokes or Wilson? All of them responded Wilson! Had Dummett or Chester not gone injured, I'm sure we'd have seen Vokes AND Wilson! And who would have made way for Vokes and Wilson? We were overloaded with attacking players as it was. There was more than a hint of Iceland at the Vetch all those years ago, under Mike England. Balance is so important - and it's something we sorely lacked against Denmark. Strangely enough if Vokes was on we wouldn’t have scored the goal we did score. It would have been flicked on by Vokes and harmlessly bounce to Schmeichel, like every other ball up to him. Vokes doesn’t have the mobility or the link up play that Roberts had to get us into a position to get the crosses in in the first place.
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Post by hc16040 on Nov 19, 2018 12:19:30 GMT
I feel for Giggs, as having to replace two defenders early on, really limited his options from the bench! I asked the people around me in the Canton, Vokes or Wilson? All of them responded Wilson! Had Dummett or Chester not gone injured, I'm sure we'd have seen Vokes AND Wilson! And who would have made way for Vokes and Wilson? We were overloaded with attacking players as it was. There was more than a hint of Iceland at the Vetch all those years ago, under Mike England. Balance is so important - and it's something we sorely lacked against Denmark. I would assume Lawrence would of made way for Wilson and Roberts for Vokes, I really feel like the early injuries really scuppered Giggs's ability to adapt the game.
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Post by alarch on Nov 19, 2018 16:56:59 GMT
And who would have made way for Vokes and Wilson? We were overloaded with attacking players as it was. There was more than a hint of Iceland at the Vetch all those years ago, under Mike England. Balance is so important - and it's something we sorely lacked against Denmark. I would assume Lawrence would of made way for Wilson and Roberts for Vokes, I really feel like the early injuries really scuppered Giggs's ability to adapt the game. Yes, it limited his options - but we didn't lose because of our restricted attacking options owing to injuries - we lost because we had an unbalanced team that was far too open to the counter.
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Post by melynwy on Nov 19, 2018 17:41:06 GMT
I feel Hennessey dealt poorly with both goals. If he is to take the starting position that he did with the first goal, then he has to rush out of his box and get to the ball before the attacker does. If he is not willing to do that, then he needs to adopt a deeper starting position, so that he can rush out later and put the attacker under pressure. As it is, he had a high starting position but then tracked back as the attacker got the ball, instantly giving the attacker an advantage and more time to think and act. It was as it always is with Hennessey. Almost never looks to blame, but lets in a lot of goals that better goalkeepers would have intelligently dealt with far sooner. Hennessey has a knack of making half-decent shots look like screamers - due do his poor positioning and footwork he can't get anywhere near them, but it rarely obviously looks like bad goalkeeping. Surely we should fire the goalkeeping coach then? What is he going through with Hennessey all week? Positioning and footwork should be basic goalkeeper qualities. It is unfair, I think, to blame the failings of a 31 year old player on a coach who only gets a few week a year to work with him.
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