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Post by conwy10 on May 18, 2020 12:00:31 GMT
Tactical voting has gone on a lot longer than Brexit. I’m a strong Plaid, and independence, supporter but I’ve been voting Labour for the last few elections. Somehow we’ve become a Tory hotbed so my main priority is trying to help Labour take it, used to be the 3 parties in with a chance but now only the big 2. If Labour takes it I’ll return to Plaid. I think Scotland holds the key to Welsh Independence. It’ll force our hand to either go for independence or become West England. I think tactical voting just doesn't work in a GE. What really changed my view on tactical voting is realising that even if Cymru, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Cornwall all voted for the same party in every constituency then the Conservatives would have still won the 2019 GE. England holds 80% of all the seats in Westminster - meaning the other nations in this "union" can't really change anything in a GE, what England wants England will get every single time. The only way to change this is to vote for a Welsh independence party - like Scotland have - as this has gained them a voice despite being a minority in the UK. Tactical voting just suggests that support for Plaid isn't growing and therefore others are discouraged from voting for Plaid as they think "Plaid will never win". If everyone who supported Plaid but tactically voted for Labour decided to vote for Plaid we'd see a swing in the % of votes and that would create momentum for Plaid. Which is why I always vote on principal of the party I believe in rather than trying to win the already rigged game tactically. I’m not going to pretend I know the ins and outs of tactical voting around the country, I just feel Plaid at the moment have no chance where I live and labour have always been close, if my vote takes one seat away from Conservative I’m happy to do it. Just my opinion, I can’t see how Plaid will ever take votes from the Tories. Plaid needs a strong Labour to work off. Every Labour mistake weakens the Welsh Government, weak Welsh Government brings the “its a waste of money” debate weakening Plaid.
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Post by conwy10 on May 18, 2020 12:08:19 GMT
I think tactical voting just doesn't work in a GE. What really changed my view on tactical voting is realising that even if Cymru, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Cornwall all voted for the same party in every constituency then the Conservatives would have still won the 2019 GE. England holds 80% of all the seats in Westminster - meaning the other nations in this "union" can't really change anything in a GE, what England wants England will get every single time. The only way to change this is to vote for a Welsh independence party - like Scotland have - as this has gained them a voice despite being a minority in the UK. Tactical voting just suggests that support for Plaid isn't growing and therefore others are discouraged from voting for Plaid as they think "Plaid will never win". If everyone who supported Plaid but tactically voted for Labour decided to vote for Plaid we'd see a swing in the % of votes and that would create momentum for Plaid. Which is why I always vote on principal of the party I believe in rather than trying to win the already rigged game tactically. I’m not going to pretend I know the ins and outs of tactical voting around the country, I just feel Plaid at the moment have no chance where I live and labour have always been close, if my vote takes one seat away from Conservative I’m happy to do it. Just my opinion, I can’t see how Plaid will ever take votes from the Tories. Plaid needs a strong Labour to work off. Every Labour mistake weakens the Welsh Government, weak Welsh Government brings the “its a waste of money” debate weakening Plaid. Also unless I’m mistaken the only way for Wales to get an independence referendum would be for Westminster to approve it regardless of how many Plaid voters we get. If Labour carries on failing in England we got no chance. Strange scenario but if Plaid won all the seats in Wales and Labour didn’t make any gains in England would that be worse for Welsh independence than Labour winning by a hung parliament in UK and relying on Plaid keeping them in power.
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Post by iot on May 18, 2020 21:17:34 GMT
Adam Price is the most impressive orator and all-round politician in Wales by some distance - I thought he was incredible in the leaders debate during the GE. The more Plaid can get him in front of people, the more likely they are to have success. But there's two major stumbling blocks preventing that from happening. The first is a complete lack of Welsh media and political sphere, meaning that Wales consumes what England consumes and Wales generally thinks what England thinks. The second is the lack of resource and professionalism within Plaid - they have no major backers, a fairly small membership base and therefore lack the expertise and resource to get their message out + undertake research (polling and focus groups etc.) to understand which messages plays well with the public. It's far from being a level playing field and I can't see how that situation is going to change to be honest. On the whole I agree that Adam Price is a good leader and represents Plaid and Welsh politics well. The effort to engage a broader and more diverse demographic are to be applauded. However, the whole Sahar Al-Faifi affair does not bode well - from the lack of due diligence in appointing an Anti-Semitic, Islamist, who chairs the homophobic MEND organisation; to the clear message sent by accepting her hint of an apology which quickly pivoted to her own interest and victimhood; to the way in which the party flatly refused to answer any questions about her reinstatement. Al-Faifi has only one interest and it's not Wales, yet Adam Price is allowing the party to be hijacked and used as a platform to this. I hope Price will show that Plaid truly cares about minorities in Wales, and not just those minorities who have the largest number of potential voters. Completely agree with others here that media needs to be devolved, as emphasised by the way in which coverage of the WG’s coronavirus policies were hidden away on social media. If Wales had its own political parties, in the way that Northern Ireland does, then voters would need to take the time to explore policies, and not just vote for whoever their fathers voted for, or vote based on what they're fed from the English media. You might be completely right on that, I don't know half enough about the Sahar Al-Faifi incident to provide an informed comment. I was proud to see her face on that poster for the reasons you stated i.e. reinforcing that Plaid isn't at all about ethnic nationalism, it is simply for a sovereign Wales and that all who want to make Wales their home are welcome here. However, if she is an antisemite and homophobic as you suggest, clearly that was a massive vetting cockup. It goes back to my earlier point, that Plaid lacks the professionalism due to its limited resources. I would want to look into that case further, however, as I think there are a lot of people who are deliberately conflating anti-Israeli sentiment (and by that, I mean disgust at Israel's treatment of Palestine) with antisemitism. I'm not saying that's the case here, Al-Faifi may be a genuine antisemite.
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Post by iot on May 18, 2020 21:21:10 GMT
I’m not going to pretend I know the ins and outs of tactical voting around the country, I just feel Plaid at the moment have no chance where I live and labour have always been close, if my vote takes one seat away from Conservative I’m happy to do it. Just my opinion, I can’t see how Plaid will ever take votes from the Tories. Plaid needs a strong Labour to work off. Every Labour mistake weakens the Welsh Government, weak Welsh Government brings the “its a waste of money” debate weakening Plaid. Also unless I’m mistaken the only way for Wales to get an independence referendum would be for Westminster to approve it regardless of how many Plaid voters we get. If Labour carries on failing in England we got no chance. Strange scenario but if Plaid won all the seats in Wales and Labour didn’t make any gains in England would that be worse for Welsh independence than Labour winning by a hung parliament in UK and relying on Plaid keeping them in power. Nah, history has shown over the last couple of centuries that when enough pressure is applied in the celtic nations, the position held at westminster eventually becomes untenable. That's how we got the devolution referendums, welsh language acts, wales office etc. - some of those were legislated by the tories.
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Post by CrackityJones on May 18, 2020 21:44:51 GMT
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Post by caeboy on May 19, 2020 21:37:32 GMT
On the whole I agree that Adam Price is a good leader and represents Plaid and Welsh politics well. The effort to engage a broader and more diverse demographic are to be applauded. However, the whole Sahar Al-Faifi affair does not bode well - from the lack of due diligence in appointing an Anti-Semitic, Islamist, who chairs the homophobic MEND organisation; to the clear message sent by accepting her hint of an apology which quickly pivoted to her own interest and victimhood; to the way in which the party flatly refused to answer any questions about her reinstatement. Al-Faifi has only one interest and it's not Wales, yet Adam Price is allowing the party to be hijacked and used as a platform to this. I hope Price will show that Plaid truly cares about minorities in Wales, and not just those minorities who have the largest number of potential voters. Completely agree with others here that media needs to be devolved, as emphasised by the way in which coverage of the WG’s coronavirus policies were hidden away on social media. If Wales had its own political parties, in the way that Northern Ireland does, then voters would need to take the time to explore policies, and not just vote for whoever their fathers voted for, or vote based on what they're fed from the English media. You might be completely right on that, I don't know half enough about the Sahar Al-Faifi incident to provide an informed comment. I was proud to see her face on that poster for the reasons you stated i.e. reinforcing that Plaid isn't at all about ethnic nationalism, it is simply for a sovereign Wales and that all who want to make Wales their home are welcome here. However, if she is an antisemite and homophobic as you suggest, clearly that was a massive vetting cockup. It goes back to my earlier point, that Plaid lacks the professionalism due to its limited resources. I would want to look into that case further, however, as I think there are a lot of people who are deliberately conflating anti-Israeli sentiment (and by that, I mean disgust at Israel's treatment of Palestine) with antisemitism. I'm not saying that's the case here, Al-Faifi may be a genuine antisemite. ... And a lot of people who are anti-semitic are delibrately trying to blur it by claiming it's 'only' Anti-Israeli Her views were forgiven by the party on account of only being 'Anti-Israeli' and that they were expressed back in 2014, while ignoring the fact the she tried to pin the 2017 London Bridge Islamist attacks onto Jewish businessmen. People of her faith dwarf the jewish population in this country and globally, so they are a far more vulnerable minority, yet by allowing her back in, Plaid seem to be sending a message that they can turn a blind eye to prejudice if it's towards groups who don't have many voters. Amongst other things. Al-Faifi has criticised people who are anti-secular, she supports Hamas, and wanted to 'bring the West to its knees'. But hey, she uses a smattering of Welsh and says she likes Welsh cakes, so it seems we have to welcome her into the Welsh fold! So, while the lack of vetting could be put down to limited resources, Plaid are now fully aware of her extreme views but have re-instated her, which is highly concerning, as this person has one agenda and it's really not Wales. You can read more about Al-Faifi here if you wish: bubble.wales/plaid-cymru-sahar-al-faifi-and-anti-semitism/www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/senior-cardiff-jews-ask-plaid-17846682
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Post by allezlesrouges on May 20, 2020 10:22:30 GMT
I think tactical voting just doesn't work in a GE. What really changed my view on tactical voting is realising that even if Cymru, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Cornwall all voted for the same party in every constituency then the Conservatives would have still won the 2019 GE. England holds 80% of all the seats in Westminster - meaning the other nations in this "union" can't really change anything in a GE, what England wants England will get every single time. The only way to change this is to vote for a Welsh independence party - like Scotland have - as this has gained them a voice despite being a minority in the UK. Tactical voting just suggests that support for Plaid isn't growing and therefore others are discouraged from voting for Plaid as they think "Plaid will never win". If everyone who supported Plaid but tactically voted for Labour decided to vote for Plaid we'd see a swing in the % of votes and that would create momentum for Plaid. Which is why I always vote on principal of the party I believe in rather than trying to win the already rigged game tactically. I’m not going to pretend I know the ins and outs of tactical voting around the country, I just feel Plaid at the moment have no chance where I live and labour have always been close, if my vote takes one seat away from Conservative I’m happy to do it. Just my opinion, I can’t see how Plaid will ever take votes from the Tories. Plaid needs a strong Labour to work off. Every Labour mistake weakens the Welsh Government, weak Welsh Government brings the “its a waste of money” debate weakening Plaid. I just see Labour as every bit as pro-union as the Conservatives. Drakeford has shown this especially with his recent comments. I believe having a Welsh branch of an English party in power does little to help Wales, and whilst Labour aren't as destructive as the Tories they don't appear to be much better at all at furthering Welsh interests. I do sympathise with the fact that it feels to you as though the tide won't change - but just look to Scotland and how quickly the SNP support grew there, it can happen! But it will just never happen if we all vote tactically.
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Post by cymruramdcfc on May 21, 2020 13:03:41 GMT
if labour get stronger in Westminster it will make labours grip on wales tighter. on a different note i was surprised how many MPs in wales dont live in wales .. call me naive but this dont seem right
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Post by pendragon on May 25, 2020 2:00:47 GMT
I think tactical voting just doesn't work in a GE. What really changed my view on tactical voting is realising that even if Cymru, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Cornwall all voted for the same party in every constituency then the Conservatives would have still won the 2019 GE. England holds 80% of all the seats in Westminster - meaning the other nations in this "union" can't really change anything in a GE, what England wants England will get every single time. The only way to change this is to vote for a Welsh independence party - like Scotland have - as this has gained them a voice despite being a minority in the UK. Tactical voting just suggests that support for Plaid isn't growing and therefore others are discouraged from voting for Plaid as they think "Plaid will never win". If everyone who supported Plaid but tactically voted for Labour decided to vote for Plaid we'd see a swing in the % of votes and that would create momentum for Plaid. Which is why I always vote on principal of the party I believe in rather than trying to win the already rigged game tactically. I’m not going to pretend I know the ins and outs of tactical voting around the country, I just feel Plaid at the moment have no chance where I live and labour have always been close, if my vote takes one seat away from Conservative I’m happy to do it. Just my opinion, I can’t see how Plaid will ever take votes from the Tories. Plaid needs a strong Labour to work off. Every Labour mistake weakens the Welsh Government, weak Welsh Government brings the “its a waste of money” debate weakening Plaid. I agree and I am livid with the mistakes that the Labour Welsh Government have made giving ammunition to the "it's a waste of money" brigade. However, even in the GE, just 35% of seats went to the Tories which doesn't suggest to me that it'll be easy for them to snatch a victory in the Welsh elections. It seems politics here in Wales has become very polarised but many traditional Labour voters in the heartlands are unhappy with Welsh Labour. What I hope for next year is a slim Labour majority - though not an outright one - where they will have to enter into a coalition with Plaid, and be held accountable and be forced to act in Wales' best interests for once. The contrast between the approaches of Westminster and Cardiff during this pandemic seems to have exposed some divisions, and has forced Welsh Labour to take a more "nationalistic" approach to the lockdown and school closures (rather than aligning with English policy on everything). It's small steps but perhaps an interesting change in dynamics which could hopefully lead to a gradual change of public opinion on further devolution and eventually independence. No fan of Drakeford btw, but do you think he's "pro-unionist"? He's been accused of being "indy-curious" apparently.
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Post by conwy10 on May 26, 2020 10:44:59 GMT
If Conservatives win the next election I’m in favour of scrapping the Welsh Government and Westminster to save money, just have a direct Tory dictatorship. It seems like there’s an almost cult following behind them no matter what they do.
If Wales can’t make gains towards independence in light of everything lately we might as well give up permanently. I don’t think there’ll ever be a clearer example of both Wales defined as a separate entity and an incompetent UK Government.
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Post by conwy10 on Jun 8, 2020 21:28:56 GMT
Support for Welsh independence now at 25% according to the latest poll. I never know how they work these out but seems a positive result.
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Post by robin1864 on Jul 11, 2020 19:46:39 GMT
Support for Welsh independence now at 25% according to the latest poll. I never know how they work these out but seems a positive result. It'd be interesting to see what it's at post-COVID & what the demographic breakdown of those in favour is. The Senedd elections next year will be huge as well for the likes of Plaid, who should have stepped up much more in this.
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Post by hooky on Jul 11, 2020 20:13:02 GMT
Could you really see Wales breaking away from the UK and joining the EU?
If Boris goes ahead to take us over the cliff with no deal, a 12% tariff on all goods from the EU, followed by a deep recession, then maybe in theory it could happen. Lets not forget though that Welsh people in industrial areas with significant inwards investment somehow voted for Brexit, putting their own jobs at risk.
Wales has never had the confidence to go it alone. You only have to look across the Irish sea to see what can be done. Drop corporate income tax to very low levels and tax individuals at high marginbal tax rates - this creates lots of jobs / opportunties for the young. However, you have to remain an open economy to foreign workers. Amazingly, Ireland has a higher income per capita than England or the UK. You go to Dublin you see many foreign nationals, especially from Italy as well as Spain, which are welcomed by the country.
Where is the confidence for us to do this? Where are the leaders to deliver this? We just always blame everyone for our problems. Well lets have a vision first? Its like Brexit. Its easy to vote against something - as there is always something / some flaw to attack. However, it would have been good to have an alternative Brexit vision to compare it to. After 4 years our stupid politicans could not even work out an agreement with the EU. The EU will be blamed but this is our fault and our choice. The irony is that Boris is not even a hard core Eurosceptic - he is an opportunist and like all Etonians he wants to be remembered - in this case as the man who freed us from Europe. We will then get a quick unfavourable trade agreement with the US which we will declare as a victory and will have the benefit of cheap chlorine treated chicken and hormone treated meat on our shelves. No Boris - people like Bevin and Lloyd George delivered great things to the people of this country - the NHS and state pension - you delivering something which hurts us is not going to put you on the same page of history as those giants.
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Post by allezlesrouges on Jul 11, 2020 21:19:50 GMT
The union is on its last legs. Scotland will be gone after the Holyrood elections, Sturgeon has outperformed BJ at every step. N.I has already been cut adrift by the Conservatives and with support for Sinn Fein growing too & the prosperity Ireland has achieved through independence means a united Ireland is becoming more and more likely.
I believe these factors will force more and more Welsh people to consider the question, and I believe calls for English independence will also grow at the same time - the Brexiters & Farage will get bored and look to a new project and English independence could be it. I imagine how they will plaster all over a bus how many millions they send to Wales, Scotland & N.I and go on about how they find "useless" things like S4C etc...
The only way we will achieve it is by the whole country stopping our engagement in tactical voting. So many people won't vote Plaid cos they think it will mean a Tory will gain their seat, but tactical voting prevents a Plaid majority from ever being a possibility. Just look how Scotland rejected tactical voting and it's done wonders for their independence movement - they're on the verge of achieving it. Wales votes Labour over and over but if England votes Tory we'll get Tory every single time - there's only one way to change this. The Senedd elections next year are a fantastic opportunity to set a precedent
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Post by conwy10 on Jul 11, 2020 21:20:15 GMT
Could you really see Wales breaking away from the UK and joining the EU? If Boris goes ahead to take us over the cliff with no deal, a 12% tariff on all goods from the EU, followed by a deep recession, then maybe in theory it could happen. Lets not forget though that Welsh people in industrial areas with significant inwards investment somehow voted for Brexit, putting their own jobs at risk. Wales has never had the confidence to go it alone. You only have to look across the Irish sea to see what can be done. Drop corporate income tax to very low levels and tax individuals at high marginbal tax rates - this creates lots of jobs / opportunties for the young. However, you have to remain an open economy to foreign workers. Amazingly, Ireland has a higher income per capita than England or the UK. You go to Dublin you see many foreign nationals, especially from Italy as well as Spain, which are welcomed by the country. Where is the confidence for us to do this? Where are the leaders to deliver this? We just always blame everyone for our problems. Well lets have a vision first? Its like Brexit. Its easy to vote against something - as there is always something / some flaw to attack. However, it would have been good to have an alternative Brexit vision to compare it to. After 4 years our stupid politicans could not even work out an agreement with the EU. The EU will be blamed but this is our fault and our choice. The irony is that Boris is not even a hard core Eurosceptic - he is an opportunist and like all Etonians he wants to be remembered - in this case as the man who freed us from Europe. We will then get a quick unfavourable trade agreement with the US which we will declare as a victory and will have the benefit of cheap chlorine treated chicken and hormone treated meat on our shelves. No Boris - people like Bevin and Lloyd George delivered great things to the people of this country - the NHS and state pension - you delivering something which hurts us is not going to put you on the same page of history as those giants. I honestly think Wales will never be independent, there’s too many non Welsh residents before you even consider Welsh who aren’t in favour of independence. I’ve always wondered what would happen if a right wing, English language, pro Welsh Independence movement started. I don’t think Welsh Independence should only be seen through the eyes of Plaid Cymru, or even leftist. They have become the poster child of Welsh Independence which does push the campaign into one corner. Brexit was always a hollow ideal but I can kind of see where some are coming from. I don’t care if Wales becomes poorer, if the option of becoming our own country on the world stage came I’d snatch it regardless. I’d rather pain for a short term in an independent Wales and finally be free than wealthy as West England. I can deal with a few pot holes and overgrown hedges.
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Post by allezlesrouges on Jul 11, 2020 21:26:20 GMT
Could you really see Wales breaking away from the UK and joining the EU? If Boris goes ahead to take us over the cliff with no deal, a 12% tariff on all goods from the EU, followed by a deep recession, then maybe in theory it could happen. Lets not forget though that Welsh people in industrial areas with significant inwards investment somehow voted for Brexit, putting their own jobs at risk. Wales has never had the confidence to go it alone. You only have to look across the Irish sea to see what can be done. Drop corporate income tax to very low levels and tax individuals at high marginbal tax rates - this creates lots of jobs / opportunties for the young. However, you have to remain an open economy to foreign workers. Amazingly, Ireland has a higher income per capita than England or the UK. You go to Dublin you see many foreign nationals, especially from Italy as well as Spain, which are welcomed by the country. Where is the confidence for us to do this? Where are the leaders to deliver this? We just always blame everyone for our problems. Well lets have a vision first? Its like Brexit. Its easy to vote against something - as there is always something / some flaw to attack. However, it would have been good to have an alternative Brexit vision to compare it to. After 4 years our stupid politicans could not even work out an agreement with the EU. The EU will be blamed but this is our fault and our choice. The irony is that Boris is not even a hard core Eurosceptic - he is an opportunist and like all Etonians he wants to be remembered - in this case as the man who freed us from Europe. We will then get a quick unfavourable trade agreement with the US which we will declare as a victory and will have the benefit of cheap chlorine treated chicken and hormone treated meat on our shelves. No Boris - people like Bevin and Lloyd George delivered great things to the people of this country - the NHS and state pension - you delivering something which hurts us is not going to put you on the same page of history as those giants. I honestly think Wales will never be independent, there’s too many non Welsh residents before you even consider Welsh who aren’t in favour of independence. I’ve always wondered what would happen if a right wing, English language, pro Welsh Independence movement started. I don’t think Welsh Independence should only be seen through the eyes of Plaid Cymru, or even leftist. They have become the poster child of Welsh Independence which does push the campaign into one corner. Brexit was always a hollow ideal but I can kind of see where some are coming from. I don’t care if Wales becomes poorer, if the option of becoming our own country on the world stage came I’d snatch it regardless. I’d rather pain for a short term in an independent Wales and finally be free than wealthy as West England. I can deal with a few pot holes and overgrown hedges. Gwlad are a right wing alternative party, as well as the Welsh national party. Both are supportive of the Welsh language though. I also think the language thing is a bit of a falsehood to beat Plaid with. They have many non-Welsh speaking candidates and voters, it's just an easy opportunity to dig at them by saying they are just a Welsh language party I think. Agree what you say though about wealth. There's more to life than money, and I'd never ever sell out Wales's uniqueness as a country for personal gain. A wealthy West of England could never be my home - I'd rather live in Scotland or Ireland
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Post by robin1864 on Jul 11, 2020 23:05:09 GMT
I’ve always wondered what would happen if a right wing, English language, pro Welsh Independence movement started. I don’t think Welsh Independence should only be seen through the eyes of Plaid Cymru, or even leftist. They have become the poster child of Welsh Independence which does push the campaign into one corner. Brexit was always a hollow ideal but I can kind of see where some are coming from. I don’t care if Wales becomes poorer, if the option of becoming our own country on the world stage came I’d snatch it regardless. I’d rather pain for a short term in an independent Wales and finally be free than wealthy as West England. I can deal with a few pot holes and overgrown hedges. It's the only way I can see it happening. Too many 80-minute patriots couldn't give a fuck about kind gentle politics because it simply doesn't appeal to them. If you used the same anti-EU smears that Vote Leave used and made them anti-UK/English, I don't think it'd be difficult to build support for independence up to at least 50% and really get the ball rolling. It might not be the way we all want independence to be achieved, but you have to make a deal with the devil at some point and accept both sides of the political spectrum to make it a reality. A century of the softly-softly approach has obviously failed to engage these people when independence could potentially benefit them. It's worth remembering the Irish had to fight a war to get their independence, so nothing will ever be gained by being politically pleasant.
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Post by conwy10 on Jul 11, 2020 23:13:17 GMT
I honestly think Wales will never be independent, there’s too many non Welsh residents before you even consider Welsh who aren’t in favour of independence. I’ve always wondered what would happen if a right wing, English language, pro Welsh Independence movement started. I don’t think Welsh Independence should only be seen through the eyes of Plaid Cymru, or even leftist. They have become the poster child of Welsh Independence which does push the campaign into one corner. Brexit was always a hollow ideal but I can kind of see where some are coming from. I don’t care if Wales becomes poorer, if the option of becoming our own country on the world stage came I’d snatch it regardless. I’d rather pain for a short term in an independent Wales and finally be free than wealthy as West England. I can deal with a few pot holes and overgrown hedges. Gwlad are a right wing alternative party, as well as the Welsh national party. Both are supportive of the Welsh language though. I also think the language thing is a bit of a falsehood to beat Plaid with. They have many non-Welsh speaking candidates and voters, it's just an easy opportunity to dig at them by saying they are just a Welsh language party I think. Agree what you say though about wealth. There's more to life than money, and I'd never ever sell out Wales's uniqueness as a country for personal gain. A wealthy West of England could never be my home - I'd rather live in Scotland or Ireland I sometimes get the feeling that putting the party name in Welsh will only appeal to the converted. I imagine that Plaid or Gwlad or any other party won’t do well in say Rhyl or Llandudno where Welsh is not widely spoken in the community. If they were Wales First or something similar it’s not exposing a personal weakness in the first word they see. Obviously yeah it’s Wales, Welsh is the language of Wales and there’s nothing wrong with Welsh names. I just feel there’ll always be those who don’t speak Welsh and are almost intimidated by it. If there was an English language pro independence movement conducted almost entirely in English I think it could do well. I’d like to see lots be made to show if you don’t speak a word of Welsh these are the reasons Welsh Independence is best for Wales. I do speak Welsh by the way 😂
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Post by conwy10 on Jul 11, 2020 23:27:31 GMT
I’ve always wondered what would happen if a right wing, English language, pro Welsh Independence movement started. I don’t think Welsh Independence should only be seen through the eyes of Plaid Cymru, or even leftist. They have become the poster child of Welsh Independence which does push the campaign into one corner. Brexit was always a hollow ideal but I can kind of see where some are coming from. I don’t care if Wales becomes poorer, if the option of becoming our own country on the world stage came I’d snatch it regardless. I’d rather pain for a short term in an independent Wales and finally be free than wealthy as West England. I can deal with a few pot holes and overgrown hedges. It's the only way I can see it happening. Too many 80-minute patriots couldn't give a fuck about kind gentle politics because it simply doesn't appeal to them. If you used the same anti-EU smears that Vote Leave used and made them anti-UK/English, I don't think it'd be difficult to build support for independence up to at least 50% and really get the ball rolling. It might not be the way we all want independence to be achieved, but you have to make a deal with the devil at some point and accept both sides of the political spectrum to make it a reality. A century of the softly-softly approach has obviously failed to engage these people when independence could potentially benefit them. It's worth remembering the Irish had to fight a war to get their independence, so nothing will ever be gained by being politically pleasant. Amazing post and yeah couldn’t sum it up better myself. Whenever I say I want Welsh independence people seem to think build a wall down the border, driving tanks into England, rounding up English people. Saying I just want ourselves to choose our own destiny falls on deaf ears. I think as humans we now have shorter attention spans. Writing we’ll give £350,000,000 to the NHS without any plan to do it will last longer than the expert debunking it. Saying Let get Brexit done wins you the election you locked yourself in a fridge to avoid a journalist. Get people to wear a Welsh Not for a debate and refuse to speak anything but English will probably attract more support than explaining the story behind it. Politics is now at a record low. Might have to lower ourselves to their level.
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Post by robin1864 on Jul 11, 2020 23:41:44 GMT
It's the only way I can see it happening. Too many 80-minute patriots couldn't give a fuck about kind gentle politics because it simply doesn't appeal to them. If you used the same anti-EU smears that Vote Leave used and made them anti-UK/English, I don't think it'd be difficult to build support for independence up to at least 50% and really get the ball rolling. It might not be the way we all want independence to be achieved, but you have to make a deal with the devil at some point and accept both sides of the political spectrum to make it a reality. A century of the softly-softly approach has obviously failed to engage these people when independence could potentially benefit them. It's worth remembering the Irish had to fight a war to get their independence, so nothing will ever be gained by being politically pleasant. Amazing post and yeah couldn’t sum it up better myself. Whenever I say I want Welsh independence people seem to think build a wall down the border, driving tanks into England, rounding up English people. Saying I just want ourselves to choose our own destiny falls on deaf ears. I think as humans we now have shorter attention spans. Writing we’ll give £350,000,000 to the NHS without any plan to do it will last longer than the expert debunking it. Saying Let get Brexit done wins you the election you locked yourself in a fridge to avoid a journalist. Get people to wear a Welsh Not for a debate and refuse to speak anything but English will probably attract more support than explaining the story behind it. Politics is now at a record low. Might have to lower ourselves to their level. It's the only way I can see it happening. We live in an era of instant gratification, the "I don't know what I want, but I want it now" is the norm, which is why some people are getting pissed off with Brexit even though we're "out". Once all is said and done the smarter amongst us can shape the future of the country, but getting there will require us to engage everyone across Wales, even if their views are unsavoury to most of us.
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Post by cadno on Jul 12, 2020 6:11:52 GMT
So many opportunities for Wales have been snubbed, the tidal lagoon etc. 'England's back garden' sounds about right!
Anyone else in the Carmarthen West & South pembs constituency?
I'd like to see Simon Hart gone!
Plaid Cymru's candidate Rhys Thomas is a good man, I think if more people knew of him they would vote for him.
And, 16 + 17 yo will be allowed to vote for the 1st time next year, what effect do you think that will have?
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Post by cadno on Jul 12, 2020 7:56:35 GMT
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Post by allezlesrouges on Jul 12, 2020 9:48:12 GMT
So many opportunities for Wales have been snubbed, the tidal lagoon etc. 'England's back garden' sounds about right! Anyone else in the Carmarthen West & South pembs constituency? I'd like to see Simon Hart gone! Plaid Cymru's candidate Rhys Thomas is a good man, I think if more people knew of him they would vote for him. And, 16 + 17 yo will be allowed to vote for the 1st time next year, what effect do you think that will have? I don't think it will have a massive effect as I don't think the voter turnout in those age groups will be massive. It's the right decision in my view though - if you can have a child you should be allowed a vote
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Post by dai on Jul 12, 2020 16:01:46 GMT
For obvious reasons, and as much as I'd love for it to happen, Wales as a collective will never vote for independence.
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Post by vaulksthrowfanclub on Jul 12, 2020 16:27:50 GMT
For obvious reasons, and as much as I'd love for it to happen, Wales as a collective will never vote for independence. It’ll be hard, but we’d (only) need a majority, rather than a ‘collective’ which kinda implies that everyone needs to be on the same page. I do however share the doubts of the Welsh public in making a correct and informed decision on crucial issues. As a previous commenter said we’ve an abundance of people thinking Wales is just a rugby team. 25% support is a healthy figure considering YesCymru as a vehicle has only existed since circa-2015. I’m hopeful more and more people will wake up to the reality that we have minimal to no power within the UK. Even the people advocating a federal UK system are surely aware that it’d be highly unlikely , as Scotland and a growing section of Northern Ireland wanting out completely- rendering it impossible. Although Drakeford is a unionist- the pandemic must have opened his eyes to how little Westminster care about us. Otherwise he’s wilfully ignoring the truth.
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Post by biwmares on Jul 12, 2020 17:25:15 GMT
Good news I say North Wales never gets anything.
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Post by cadno on Jul 12, 2020 18:15:00 GMT
Good news I say North Wales never gets anything. Aye!
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Post by robin1864 on Jul 12, 2020 21:28:48 GMT
And, 16 + 17 yo will be allowed to vote for the 1st time next year, what effect do you think that will have? Little, if any effect. I'm 24 & most of my mates (largely non-political) voted the same as their parents did for the referendum & every bloody subsequent election. It's not hard to imagine the same happening here on a much more impressionable demographic, hearing kids say "I don't really know to be honest, so I just voted what my parents said was best", and that's IF you can get them to turn out. Quite depressing, really. The Senedd should get on electronic voting, that would ramp up democratic participation more than lowering the voting age ever could. Bit of a shame really, as it seems a huge opportunity missed.
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Post by 1gwaunview on Jul 14, 2020 10:20:19 GMT
A beautiful dream for sure, but an independent Cymru would be hamstrung for generations (as will/would Scotland should they have another referendum, and vote to leave) by the now massive and ever increasing UK national debt, a proportion of which would have to paid for by everyone in the UK (or at least an agreement to pay), prior to any break up of the existing union. Once the Scots are truly aware of their future responsibility towards this debt, many will surely have second thoughts. Failure to re-pay would make these completely new states very unpopular across the World, before they even closed the inauguration ceremony for a new Prime Minister. Independence/Cymru rhydd, a wonderful idea in theory, but devo-max would probably be less painful and more realistic.
Current UK debt - Over 2 trillion pounds and rising daily.
Equates to:
Individual debt - £38141 per UK resident, or £65603 per current UK taxpayer.
Source - National Debt clock.co.uk (14-07-20).
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Post by allezlesrouges on Jul 14, 2020 23:40:26 GMT
A beautiful dream for sure, but an independent Cymru would be hamstrung for generations (as will/would Scotland should they have another referendum, and vote to leave) by the now massive and ever increasing UK national debt, a proportion of which would have to paid for by everyone in the UK (or at least an agreement to pay), prior to any break up of the existing union. Once the Scots are truly aware of their future responsibility towards this debt, many will surely have second thoughts. Failure to re-pay would make these completely new states very unpopular across the World, before they even closed the inauguration ceremony for a new Prime Minister. Independence/Cymru rhydd, a wonderful idea in theory, but devo-max would probably be less painful and more realistic.
Current UK debt - Over 2 trillion pounds and rising daily.
Equates to:
Individual debt - £38141 per UK resident, or £65603 per current UK taxpayer.
Source - National Debt clock.co.uk (14-07-20).
Surely the fact that this debt is rising exponentially as part of the UK shows that it's worse to start a part of the UK? Get out while we can to prevent it rising any higher in our name. The USA has the highest debt of any country in the world - does this mean they shouldn't be independent? Every country borrows, and every country that becomes independent manages this. It hasn't crippled Ireland or the Isle of Man who have gained independence from the UK, why would Scotland or Cymru be any different? Debt doesn't work in the context of paying back what you owe - if it did the USA & China would collapse. It's more a mechanism that impacts trade than anything else. And given that, we're better off out of the UK
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