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Post by conwy10 on Jul 15, 2020 8:48:00 GMT
A beautiful dream for sure, but an independent Cymru would be hamstrung for generations (as will/would Scotland should they have another referendum, and vote to leave) by the now massive and ever increasing UK national debt, a proportion of which would have to paid for by everyone in the UK (or at least an agreement to pay), prior to any break up of the existing union. Once the Scots are truly aware of their future responsibility towards this debt, many will surely have second thoughts. Failure to re-pay would make these completely new states very unpopular across the World, before they even closed the inauguration ceremony for a new Prime Minister. Independence/Cymru rhydd, a wonderful idea in theory, but devo-max would probably be less painful and more realistic.
Current UK debt - Over 2 trillion pounds and rising daily.
Equates to:
Individual debt - £38141 per UK resident, or £65603 per current UK taxpayer.
Source - National Debt clock.co.uk (14-07-20).
Pay the UK debt? We shouldn’t agree to any divorce bill. We should just tell them to go whistle. It’ll be all sunlit uplands.
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Post by robin1864 on Jul 15, 2020 9:03:33 GMT
A beautiful dream for sure, but an independent Cymru would be hamstrung for generations (as will/would Scotland should they have another referendum, and vote to leave) by the now massive and ever increasing UK national debt, a proportion of which would have to paid for by everyone in the UK (or at least an agreement to pay), prior to any break up of the existing union. Once the Scots are truly aware of their future responsibility towards this debt, many will surely have second thoughts. Failure to re-pay would make these completely new states very unpopular across the World, before they even closed the inauguration ceremony for a new Prime Minister. Independence/Cymru rhydd, a wonderful idea in theory, but devo-max would probably be less painful and more realistic.
Current UK debt - Over 2 trillion pounds and rising daily.
Equates to:
Individual debt - £38141 per UK resident, or £65603 per current UK taxpayer.
Source - National Debt clock.co.uk (14-07-20).
Pay the UK debt? We shouldn’t agree to any divorce bill. We should just tell them to go whistle. It’ll be all sunlit uplands. Unlike Scotland, Wales didn't choose to join any union, so I think its a fair argument that England should be the ones who pay fully for their spoils of war. Expecting us to pay a divorce bill for something we were forced into would be like building a wall and making Mexico pay for it.
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Post by cadno on Jul 15, 2020 9:07:51 GMT
Pay the UK debt? We shouldn’t agree to any divorce bill. We should just tell them to go whistle. It’ll be all sunlit uplands. Unlike Scotland, Wales didn't choose to join any union, so I think its a fair argument that England should be the ones who pay fully for their spoils of war. Expecting us to pay a divorce bill for something we were forced into would be like building a wall and making Mexico pay for it. Have we been forced, or been complicit over the years?
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Post by allezlesrouges on Jul 15, 2020 9:19:37 GMT
Unlike Scotland, Wales didn't choose to join any union, so I think its a fair argument that England should be the ones who pay fully for their spoils of war. Expecting us to pay a divorce bill for something we were forced into would be like building a wall and making Mexico pay for it. Have we been forced, or been complicit over the years? We're an annexed nation - there's no two ways around it. We've been forced into a political union from which we amount to 6% of votes in parliament. Complicity is somewhat irrelevant as we can't change a damn thing even if we want to due to the system of the union that we were forced into!
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Post by robin1864 on Jul 15, 2020 9:32:24 GMT
Have we been forced, or been complicit over the years? We're an annexed nation - there's no two ways around it. We've been forced into a political union from which we amount to 6% of votes in parliament. Complicity is somewhat irrelevant as we can't change a damn thing even if we want to due to the system of the union that we were forced into! Pretty much this. There could be an argument that we've been complicit, but Welsh people were never given the choice in partaking to begin with, and in fact revolted against it several times only to be put down and penalised harshly on every occasion. Individuals just do what they can to survive under the conditions they're born into.
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Post by cadno on Jul 15, 2020 11:55:08 GMT
We're an annexed nation - there's no two ways around it. We've been forced into a political union from which we amount to 6% of votes in parliament. Complicity is somewhat irrelevant as we can't change a damn thing even if we want to due to the system of the union that we were forced into! Pretty much this. There could be an argument that we've been complicit, but Welsh people were never given the choice in partaking to begin with, and in fact revolted against it several times only to be put down and penalised harshly on every occasion. Individuals just do what they can to survive under the conditions they're born into. Makes sense, thanks for clearing it up for me! Any recommended books etc to learn about Welsh histroy?
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Post by CrackityJones on Jul 15, 2020 14:15:39 GMT
The Senedd will be debating independence for the first time today.
It’s happening lads, keep the faith.
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Post by allezlesrouges on Jul 15, 2020 14:57:22 GMT
We're an annexed nation - there's no two ways around it. We've been forced into a political union from which we amount to 6% of votes in parliament. Complicity is somewhat irrelevant as we can't change a damn thing even if we want to due to the system of the union that we were forced into! Pretty much this. There could be an argument that we've been complicit, but Welsh people were never given the choice in partaking to begin with, and in fact revolted against it several times only to be put down and penalised harshly on every occasion. Individuals just do what they can to survive under the conditions they're born into. I'll definitely be stealing that last sentence in future arguments - a really good way of putting it!
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Post by allezlesrouges on Jul 15, 2020 14:59:05 GMT
The Senedd will be debating independence for the first time today. It’s happening lads, keep the faith. Will be tuning in for this. I believe a motion is being tabled that Wales has the right to call it's own referendum and doesn't have to ask for Westminster's permission to do this. Will be interested to see the response to this
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Post by robin1864 on Jul 15, 2020 14:59:44 GMT
Pretty much this. There could be an argument that we've been complicit, but Welsh people were never given the choice in partaking to begin with, and in fact revolted against it several times only to be put down and penalised harshly on every occasion. Individuals just do what they can to survive under the conditions they're born into. Makes sense, thanks for clearing it up for me! Any recommended books etc to learn about Welsh histroy? I'm no expert on Welsh history and largely looked at it from the perspective of Wales being in union with England since the early 1500's. England essentially took over because, as ever is the case, our ancestors were too busy fighting amongst themselves and laughing at their neighbours misfortune as each kingdom fell.
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Post by CrackityJones on Jul 15, 2020 15:06:29 GMT
Another factor in the chances of the union breaking up soon is the growing popularity of English independence.
Go for it chaps, we’re counting on you.
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Post by conwy10 on Jul 15, 2020 18:10:55 GMT
Pay the UK debt? We shouldn’t agree to any divorce bill. We should just tell them to go whistle. It’ll be all sunlit uplands. Unlike Scotland, Wales didn't choose to join any union, so I think its a fair argument that England should be the ones who pay fully for their spoils of war. Expecting us to pay a divorce bill for something we were forced into would be like building a wall and making Mexico pay for it. 😂 class. But yeah I never saw it that way but I agree totally.
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Post by conwy10 on Jul 15, 2020 18:14:17 GMT
The Senedd will be debating independence for the first time today. It’s happening lads, keep the faith. Have you seen the Welsh football fans Facebook comments section? It’s like Tory Central.
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Post by wirralwelsh on Jul 15, 2020 18:17:43 GMT
Never gonna happen. If it came down to it literally half the people in Wales would rather become part of England than become independent let alone retain the status quo, that's the reality of it.
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Post by robin1864 on Jul 15, 2020 18:17:53 GMT
The Senedd will be debating independence for the first time today. It’s happening lads, keep the faith. Have you seen the Welsh football fans Facebook comments section? It’s like Tory Central. Hence why it's important to mirror anti-EU messages and tailor it to Welsh indy. I'm fully convinced these people can be reached & won over, but they're never going to sit around the camp fire and sing kumbaya with a bunch of people they perceive to be "sandal-wearing welsh language lefties".
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Post by conwy10 on Jul 15, 2020 18:42:43 GMT
Makes sense, thanks for clearing it up for me! Any recommended books etc to learn about Welsh histroy? I'm no expert on Welsh history and largely looked at it from the perspective of Wales being in union with England since the early 1500's. England essentially took over because, as ever is the case, our ancestors were too busy fighting amongst themselves and laughing at their neighbours misfortune as each kingdom fell. I think England were always going to set its sights on Wales. Tried to take Scotland too but eventually had to marry into the country. Our geography was set up for smaller kingdoms, similar to the clans in Scotland or city states of Greece. If it was flat they would have had a huge battle and had one ruler hundreds of years before the Anglos got here. England were more organised, united and larger than the Welsh so we were an easy conquest. It’s up to the Welsh to show we’re still here and reclaim our land, but the desire to be Welsh has to be larger than the desire to be British.
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Post by robin1864 on Jul 15, 2020 18:49:52 GMT
I'm no expert on Welsh history and largely looked at it from the perspective of Wales being in union with England since the early 1500's. England essentially took over because, as ever is the case, our ancestors were too busy fighting amongst themselves and laughing at their neighbours misfortune as each kingdom fell. I think England were always going to set its sights on Wales. Tried to take Scotland too but eventually had to marry into the country. Our geography was set up for smaller kingdoms, similar to the clans in Scotland or city states of Greece. If it was flat they would have had a huge battle and had one ruler hundreds of years before the Anglos got here. England were more organised, united and larger than the Welsh so we were an easy conquest. It’s up to the Welsh to show we’re still here and reclaim our land, but the desire to be Welsh has to be larger than the desire to be British. A few decent football tournaments should solve that I think, it evokes a stronger feeling in people and their identity than winning in rugby - the debate has really kicked on since 2015.
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Post by conwy10 on Jul 15, 2020 18:53:30 GMT
Have you seen the Welsh football fans Facebook comments section? It’s like Tory Central. Hence why it's important to mirror anti-EU messages and tailor it to Welsh indy. I'm fully convinced these people can be reached & won over, but they're never going to sit around the camp fire and sing kumbaya with a bunch of people they perceive to be "sandal-wearing welsh language lefties". Completely agree, but these are the types where if you offer reasonable debate turn to “you just don’t get it!!” and refuse further discussion. For some reason they think the cheaper, closer to home Welsh Government is a waste of money but the corrupt government of Britain is the Jewel of the Crown. If I want to pass a law in Conwy we’d have to convince 40 Welsh mps but 600 in Britain. How anyone can be on a Welsh football fan page saying we’d be a 3rd world country without England is beyond me. Absolutely no pride in our country.
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Post by CrackityJones on Jul 15, 2020 19:22:03 GMT
A few loud mouths on Facebook really isnt reflective of the electorate. They’ll have to think a bit harder soon when the English independence movement grows even stronger, if they don’t want to look like the arselicking numpties they are.
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Post by robin1864 on Jul 15, 2020 19:33:30 GMT
A few loud mouths on Facebook really isnt reflective of the electorate. They’ll have to think a bit harder soon when the English independence movement grows even stronger, if they don’t want to look like the arselicking numpties they are. We all thought that about Brexit and look where we ended up. We need to stop being arrogant in this respect.
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Post by vaulksthrowfanclub on Jul 15, 2020 20:36:44 GMT
It’s a sickening situation- ‘Welsh’ politicians are full on sprinting towards an Englandandwales scenario, where we’ll have as much identity as the farcical England cricket team.
I Feel cursed to be in the only ‘country’ to be filled with people suffering stockholm syndrome. No doubt these politicians and their supporters have ‘proud Welshman’ in their twitter bios....
Plaid Cymru and Gwlad (to appeal to the Brexiteers, but they should have gone for an english name imo) are our only hopes. Or English Independence.
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Post by conwy10 on Jul 15, 2020 22:53:10 GMT
A few loud mouths on Facebook really isnt reflective of the electorate. They’ll have to think a bit harder soon when the English independence movement grows even stronger, if they don’t want to look like the arselicking numpties they are. I’d love for it to be a few but where I live the Welshness is receding. I feel the towns are like Liverpool and the countryside like Cheshire. Not to say it wouldn’t happen but based on my estimate I still think the overwhelming majority don’t want Welsh Independence and are seemingly fanatically opposed to it.
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Post by biwmares on Jul 16, 2020 0:07:24 GMT
Like to see it happen but unfortunately its not going to for many many years.
I would prefer if gradually they have more powers transferred from Westminster & take it from there & see how it goes.
What worries me is the standard of politicians in the assembly they are mainly poor they have no vision or strategies they dress shabbily & some & not all are not fit to serve on Parish Councils if it was not for proportional representation.
What is in it for people from Mid & North Wales?
They need a proper transport strategy/network in Wales a road & rail system fit for the 18th century.
I know South Wales has more people but the funding is disproportionate compared to the rest of Wales the assembly has managed to squander EU billions on nothing mainly in South Wales.
Is it fair that residents of Mid & North have to go to hospitals in England to receive treatment & what are they going to do about it.
The assembly & South Wales reminds me of Westminster & South East with most of the funding going to them regions & the scraps left for the rest of the country.
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Post by 1gwaunview on Jul 16, 2020 9:56:49 GMT
Like to see it happen but unfortunately its not going to for many many years. I would prefer if gradually they have more powers transferred from Westminster & take it from there & see how it goes. What worries me is the standard of politicians in the assembly they are mainly poor they have no vision or strategies they dress shabbily & some & not all are not fit to serve on Parish Councils if it was not for proportional representation. What is in it for people from Mid & North Wales? They need a proper transport strategy/network in Wales a road & rail system fit for the 18th century. I know South Wales has more people but the funding is disproportionate compared to the rest of Wales the assembly has managed to squander EU billions on nothing mainly in South Wales. Is it fair that residents of Mid & North have to go to hospitals in England to receive treatment & what are they going to do about it. The assembly & South Wales reminds me of Westminster & South East with most of the funding going to them regions & the scraps left for the rest of the country. Agree with your sentiments, and you can include West Wales in that as well. Seems to be always Cardiff/South Wales centric, just like BBC Wales. Da iawn S4C, at least their news includes North of the M4.
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Post by holmesdaleultra on Jul 16, 2020 16:22:18 GMT
Have we been forced, or been complicit over the years? We're an annexed nation - there's no two ways around it. We've been forced into a political union from which we amount to 6% of votes in parliament. Complicity is somewhat irrelevant as we can't change a damn thing even if we want to due to the system of the union that we were forced into! Good documentry series on BBC iplayer The story of Wales bro.
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Post by evans1282 on Jul 16, 2020 20:16:15 GMT
The Senedd will be debating independence for the first time today. It’s happening lads, keep the faith. Have you seen the Welsh football fans Facebook comments section? It’s like Tory Central. I'm on that Facebook group and if you stay on "pure" football it's ok ,stray off and the Yoon ,Tommeh Robinson mob pile in!
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Post by superunknown on Jul 17, 2020 6:50:08 GMT
Have you seen the Welsh football fans Facebook comments section? It’s like Tory Central. I'm on that Facebook group and if you stay on "pure" football it's ok ,stray off and the Yoon ,Tommeh Robinson mob pile in! God forbid the FAW show support to the LGBT community and change the badge to a multicoloured one temporarily.
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Post by robin1864 on Jul 18, 2020 18:39:27 GMT
I'm on that Facebook group and if you stay on "pure" football it's ok ,stray off and the Yoon ,Tommeh Robinson mob pile in! God forbid the FAW show support to the LGBT community and change the badge to a multicoloured one temporarily. It makes you realise that Wales perhaps isn't the most friendly, accepting country we'd all like to think it is. The Anglo-Saxon mindset of feeling threatened by and attacking anything that isn't considered "proper" or familiar is definitely creeping into Welsh society.
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