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Post by gruffudd on Mar 27, 2024 1:51:02 GMT
Then why did he play, there were other options. Who knows. Why did Moore play 120 minutes despite being knackered after 70? Why did Page decide to play Dan James at RWB for the first time (I think) in a playoff final? It's easy to criticise afterwards, but lots of questionable decisions from Page tonight. Yep we are all geniuses after the fact, but that stands out as a ridiculous gamble. |
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Post by aberbeeg on Mar 27, 2024 7:07:41 GMT
Can’t help feeling that there is always more to come from BJ but we never really see more than a 7 or 8 out of 10.
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Post by erasedcitizen on Mar 27, 2024 7:41:15 GMT
Who knows. Why did Moore play 120 minutes despite being knackered after 70? Why did Page decide to play Dan James at RWB for the first time (I think) in a playoff final? It's easy to criticise afterwards, but lots of questionable decisions from Page tonight. Yep we are all geniuses after the fact, but that stands out as a ridiculous gamble. Pretty much everyone looked at each other around me with a baffling look on their face when he went off. He'll be rightly fuming at coming off there unless he was injured. |
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Post by highbury06 on Mar 27, 2024 8:03:40 GMT
Yep we are all geniuses after the fact, but that stands out as a ridiculous gamble. Pretty much everyone looked at each other around me with a baffling look on their face when he went off. He'll be rightly fuming at coming off there unless he was injured. and i am especially sorry for him, he hasn't broken into the team in 2021 and played only a bit-part role in 2022. It would have been his tournament. Similar to Brooks, but Brooks's ceiling has been limited by injuries and illnesses, while BJ can certainly improve. who knows whether we can qualify in 2026 or 2028, and whether BJ will still be on top form if so. |
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Post by athenempadu on Mar 27, 2024 9:03:27 GMT
Yep we are all geniuses after the fact, but that stands out as a ridiculous gamble. I changed my pre-match prediction from a Wales win to a don't know after seeing the starting line-up, and the team management got worse from there. |
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vader
steve evans
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Post by vader on Mar 27, 2024 9:12:37 GMT
I think one of the big mistakes last night was starting both Johnson and Moore. It didn't leave us with anywhere to go as the game got on. Should have started one and brought the other on. Johnson was quiet second half, but I think these two games have seen a big improvement from him in terms of Wales showings.
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Post by allezlesrouges on Mar 27, 2024 16:58:55 GMT
Thought Brennan was outstanding in the first half, but I think the mistake was starting Moore. I get the rationale but we were less fluid in attack and ultimately Moore's aerial prowess didn't pay off so in hindsight it was a bad move (although many fans were calling for it!)
Think starting with James-Brennan-Wilson was the right thing to do in hindsight. Moore coming on late in the game would have given them something different to think about
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Post by dai on Mar 27, 2024 17:26:44 GMT
I still think Brennan has a lot more to prove in a red shirt, however imagine being a regular in a top 6 PL side, yet get subbed at the 70 min mark when the championship striker stays on and is absolutely knackered. I like Moore, but he should not be playing the full 90.
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Post by winsumluzsum on Mar 27, 2024 17:39:46 GMT
Thought Brennan was outstanding in the first half, but I think the mistake was starting Moore. I get the rationale but we were less fluid in attack and ultimately Moore's aerial prowess didn't pay off so in hindsight it was a bad move (although many fans were calling for it!) Think starting with James-Brennan-Wilson was the right thing to do in hindsight. Moore coming on late in the game would have given them something different to think about Moore had a better game than many give him credit for. He came closest to scoring with that header early in the second half, had another header just over (or was it Davies) first half, had a perfect header in to Davies for the disallowed goal, and made a lovely pass in to Wilson who was inches away from latching on to it 8 yards out. He did tire though and should have been subbed around the 70 minute mark. The odd thing was the decision to place him wide right, because even though he won nearly all his headers there were no Cymru players close enough to capitalise. Perhaps the aim was to put him up against the shorter Kiwior. Fine, but he needed to be supported. |
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Post by ddirpytnop on Mar 27, 2024 17:41:46 GMT
Thought Brennan was outstanding in the first half, but I think the mistake was starting Moore. I get the rationale but we were less fluid in attack and ultimately Moore's aerial prowess didn't pay off so in hindsight it was a bad move (although many fans were calling for it!) Think starting with James-Brennan-Wilson was the right thing to do in hindsight. Moore coming on late in the game would have given them something different to think about Agree. The trouble with Moore is that it causes us to constantly go long to him. Sometimes that works - Croatia at home and the second half of the USA game, for example, but on other occasions, like last night, it doesn't. It depends a lot on the ref but also the pressure defenders are able to apply to him. Against the more aggressive defenders his touch often deserts him and then we just end up with him losing the ball rather than holding it up and bringing the other forwards into play. A forward line with Brennan, Dan and Harry, or even Nathan, would have given Poland's aggressive but not especially pacey defenders, far more issues. I think Page's choice of Moore was based on the idea that Poland would employ a high press - and we would be able break the press by going long to Moore. But in reality, Poland's press wasn't that high and Moore was pretty ineffective (except from set pieces, where he will always be a threat). |
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Post by winsumluzsum on Mar 27, 2024 18:39:05 GMT
Moore was rated 4th best player on Fotmob with a 7.2, rating, behind Ampadu 7.9, Rodon 7.4 and Davies 7.3.
Yes we could have gone with Johnson as a 9 with James and Wilson either side. But when has it worked with Johnson as a 9? Perhaps partially against Finland, but only for short spells then. Alternatively we could have played Wilson as a false 9, but again is there any precedent for this succeeding?
Moore wasn't brilliant by any means, but we didn't make the most of the 11 out of 13 aerials he won by poor positioning by his teammates.
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Post by surge on Mar 27, 2024 18:42:01 GMT
My issue being that Moore and Brennan are the two who played as a focal point so starting then both restricted how many changes we could make later on.
Brennan on at 65 mins would have given us more threat towards end of game or vice versa.
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Post by dai on Mar 27, 2024 18:46:20 GMT
It isn't so much that Moore wasn't good (he was fine until around 60mins) but his effect on the game waned, and he was tiring. The fact he played an additional hour, while pretty much limping through most of extra time was frankly disastrous game management.
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Post by athenempadu on Mar 27, 2024 18:50:33 GMT
Moore was rated 4th best player on Fotmob with a 7.2, rating, behind Ampadu 7.9, Rodon 7.4 and Davies 7.3. Yes we could have gone with Johnson as a 9 with James and Wilson either side. But when has it worked with Johnson as a 9? Perhaps partially against Finland, but only for short spells then. Alternatively we could have played Wilson as a false 9, but again is there any precedent for this succeeding? Moore wasn't brilliant by any means, but we didn't make the most of the 11 out of 13 aerials he won by poor positioning by his teammates. The algorithmic FotMob ratings are a bit weird IMO. They never match with what I see when I watch a game. |
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Post by morg on Mar 30, 2024 17:14:55 GMT
Spurs fans praising him to the skies for winning them the game against Luton and came pretty close to scoring!
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Post by athenempadu on Apr 2, 2024 20:53:55 GMT
Another goal for Brennan against WHU.
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Post by njdragon on Apr 3, 2024 11:21:21 GMT
It isn't so much that Moore wasn't good (he was fine until around 60mins) but his effect on the game waned, and he was tiring. The fact he played an additional hour, while pretty much limping through most of extra time was frankly disastrous game management. sorry but this is rubbish - moore worked his socks off right until then end, he was doing the doggies and shuttles when they were in possession in extra time. As a striker he won nearly all of the ball thrown to him but there was no one following up on them. |
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Post by dai on Apr 5, 2024 19:54:42 GMT
It isn't so much that Moore wasn't good (he was fine until around 60mins) but his effect on the game waned, and he was tiring. The fact he played an additional hour, while pretty much limping through most of extra time was frankly disastrous game management. sorry but this is rubbish - moore worked his socks off right until then end, he was doing the doggies and shuttles when they were in possession in extra time. As a striker he won nearly all of the ball thrown to him but there was no one following up on them. Oh give over ffs, he was completely f*cked by the 90mins. Most of the boys were working their socks off, doesn't mean they should stay on the pitch - it would have been better having a fresh player working his socks off than a player who was struggling to run. I really like Moore, so this isn't a dig at the player. He should not have played 120mins of football, that was obvious. |
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Post by iot on Apr 5, 2024 20:19:51 GMT
sorry but this is rubbish - moore worked his socks off right until then end, he was doing the doggies and shuttles when they were in possession in extra time. As a striker he won nearly all of the ball thrown to him but there was no one following up on them. Oh give over ffs, he was completely f*cked by the 90mins. Most of the boys were working their socks off, doesn't mean they should stay on the pitch - it would have been better having a fresh player working his socks off than a player who was struggling to run. I really like Moore, so this isn't a dig at the player. He should not have played 120mins of football, that was obvious. Agree with all of that |
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Post by winsumluzsum on Apr 6, 2024 9:09:50 GMT
He was definitely going strong up to the end of the first half of extra time, at which point the whole team dropped off. Perhaps we could have changed things earlier but claiming Moore was knackered is counter factual.
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Post by hooky on Apr 6, 2024 10:34:48 GMT
Sorry - I love Moore but anyone who believes he was going strong towards the end of the second half let alone after extra time is in dream land.
He was knackered in the last 20 mins of normal time. Because he is so committed and continues to fight then perhaps it is not that obvious to all but you can see the drop off, the lower level of control and mental fatigue in the way he faded. Are you forgetting when he was clean through albeit he was outside the penalty area and being closed down and he just did very little as he was in 20 different minds and blew the opportunity completely. That is the actions of a seriously tired player
Brennan looks far more fit and should be too given their different physiques. Later on in the game is the time you need pace up front but our manager takes off Brennan and then decides to play James at full back. The play off was the game where it was clear that Page really is a hinderance and he is never going to improve. We are talking about basics not a great coaching chess move and his actions under pressure are undermining the impact of our strengths at times as he is making awful decisions.
We probably would not have qualified for the WC whoever the manager is but Page staying on has extinguished even the pretense that we have a chance. He is just not good enough and our team is just not good enough to carry a poor manager.
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Post by fiveattheback on Apr 6, 2024 11:10:40 GMT
sorry but this is rubbish - moore worked his socks off right until then end, he was doing the doggies and shuttles when they were in possession in extra time. As a striker he won nearly all of the ball thrown to him but there was no one following up on them. Oh give over ffs, he was completely f*cked by the 90mins. Most of the boys were working their socks off, doesn't mean they should stay on the pitch - it would have been better having a fresh player working his socks off than a player who was struggling to run. I really like Moore, so this isn't a dig at the player. He should not have played 120mins of football, that was obvious. Yep. He and Wilson were clearly fucked. |
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Post by fiveattheback on Apr 6, 2024 11:11:55 GMT
He was definitely going strong up to the end of the first half of extra time, at which point the whole team dropped off. Perhaps we could have changed things earlier but claiming Moore was knackered is counter factual. He was knackered, that one chance he had in extra time where he just couldn't get any power in his run or shot was evidence of that |
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Post by winsumluzsum on Apr 6, 2024 11:40:19 GMT
That was a case of miscontrol. If you look at his defensive actions in the first half of extra time he's still closing down the opposition.
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Post by fiveattheback on Apr 6, 2024 11:54:06 GMT
That was a case of miscontrol. If you look at his defensive actions in the first half of extra time he's still closing down the opposition. The control was fine, he looked like he was running through treacle. No power in his run or shot at all |
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Post by iot on Apr 6, 2024 12:11:22 GMT
Sorry - I love Moore but anyone who believes he was going strong towards the end of the second half let alone after extra time is in dream land. He was knackered in the last 20 mins of normal time. Because he is so committed and continues to fight then perhaps it is not that obvious to all but you can see the drop off, the lower level of control and mental fatigue in the way he faded. Are you forgetting when he was clean through albeit he was outside the penalty area and being closed down and he just did very little as he was in 20 different minds and blew the opportunity completely. That is the actions of a seriously tired player Brennan looks far more fit and should be too given their different physiques. Later on in the game is the time you need pace up front but our manager takes off Brennan and then decides to play James at full back. The play off was the game where it was clear that Page really is a hinderance and he is never going to improve. We are talking about basics not a great coaching chess move and his actions under pressure are undermining the impact of our strengths at times as he is making awful decisions. We probably would not have qualified for the WC whoever the manager is but Page staying on has extinguished even the pretense that we have a chance. He is just not good enough and our team is just not good enough to carry a poor manager. Agree completely with the first para, lots of nonsense in the other two. You only had to watch the latest Spurs game to see how badly Brennan faded in the last 30 after a promising first half, and that’s been a pattern in a lot of his Spurs performances. Seen lots saying James was played as a right back which is just nonsense and designed to exaggerate the mistake of playing him at wing back. That’s not semantics, there’s a big difference between the two. I felt Page made a few mistakes in the final too, although there’s a bigger picture to consider. If you think about the result, 0-0 against a stronger side (on paper) in Poland is certainly not the terrible result it’s being billed up to be. Another manager may have made better decisions at the 60min mark to turn the game more in our favour. Equally, another manager may have made poorer decisions in how we were set up, or failed to get as much out of our players (who clearly love Page) leading us to go behind. Moving to a back 4 after Roberts went off may have led to Polish goals - I wanted us to take the risk, but we don’t know how it would have turned out. As for your last point - the obvious irony being Page is the only person in Welsh football history to actually qualify for a World Cup (something Coleman failed to do with a world class Bale and Ramsey), so I just think it’s a very poor point |
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Post by winsumluzsum on Apr 6, 2024 12:34:04 GMT
I've watched the first half of extra time a few times and Moore continues to close down the opposition, and yes he does miscontrol the ball with the chance he had. Wilson was the player who faded most notably, so there was a case for subbing him sooner.
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Post by iot on Apr 6, 2024 12:57:50 GMT
I've watched the first half of extra time a few times and Moore continues to close down the opposition, and yes he does miscontrol the ball with the chance he had. Wilson was the player who faded most notably, so there was a case for subbing him sooner. I don't have the heart to watch it back, but I remember vividly looking at him and Wilson at the time and monitor them closely after picking up how knackered they looked. It was obvious. Sometimes it's easier to pick up on it live than on telly. |
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Post by hooky on Apr 6, 2024 14:06:52 GMT
Sorry - I love Moore but anyone who believes he was going strong towards the end of the second half let alone after extra time is in dream land. He was knackered in the last 20 mins of normal time. Because he is so committed and continues to fight then perhaps it is not that obvious to all but you can see the drop off, the lower level of control and mental fatigue in the way he faded. Are you forgetting when he was clean through albeit he was outside the penalty area and being closed down and he just did very little as he was in 20 different minds and blew the opportunity completely. That is the actions of a seriously tired player Brennan looks far more fit and should be too given their different physiques. Later on in the game is the time you need pace up front but our manager takes off Brennan and then decides to play James at full back. The play off was the game where it was clear that Page really is a hinderance and he is never going to improve. We are talking about basics not a great coaching chess move and his actions under pressure are undermining the impact of our strengths at times as he is making awful decisions. We probably would not have qualified for the WC whoever the manager is but Page staying on has extinguished even the pretense that we have a chance. He is just not good enough and our team is just not good enough to carry a poor manager. Agree completely with the first para, lots of nonsense in the other two. You only had to watch the latest Spurs game to see how badly Brennan faded in the last 30 after a promising first half, and that’s been a pattern in a lot of his Spurs performances. Seen lots saying James was played as a right back which is just nonsense and designed to exaggerate the mistake of playing him at wing back. That’s not semantics, there’s a big difference between the two. I felt Page made a few mistakes in the final too, although there’s a bigger picture to consider. If you think about the result, 0-0 against a stronger side (on paper) in Poland is certainly not the terrible result it’s being billed up to be. Another manager may have made better decisions at the 60min mark to turn the game more in our favour. Equally, another manager may have made poorer decisions in how we were set up, or failed to get as much out of our players (who clearly love Page) leading us to go behind. Moving to a back 4 after Roberts went off may have led to Polish goals - I wanted us to take the risk, but we don’t know how it would have turned out. As for your last point - the obvious irony being Page is the only person in Welsh football history to actually qualify for a World Cup (something Coleman failed to do with a world class Bale and Ramsey), so I just think it’s a very poor point Page? No sorry I think Bale had far more to do with us reaching a WC not Page and everyone knows it. Austria was a great performance but Bale was the spark. People forget we were poor at home against the 10 man Czechs but won and against Ukraine for 60 mins. Poland are not Belgium, Italy or even Ukraine or Hungary. They are currently very mediocre. We have no god given right to beat them but we had the massive advantage of being at home and pace. We blew it, Don't give me bigger picture - we had a massive opportunity and 120 minutes to make it and most of us feel Page make bad decisions. He is a very poor coach and I am really fed up knowing he is a handicap to us. I accepted poor performances up until the WC but that tournament made his limitations and terrible calls plain to see for all. Going through the next tournaments and seeing mistake after mistake. Armenia 1 point from 6 ffs (of and not the first time either was it - without Bale we lose to Belarus away and we drew with Estonia at home!). Even after the home humiliation, the players turn it around with a great performance - playing for the manager. That is great but he needs to contribute and we below our second chance in the next game our in Armenia where we were terrible. Against Turkey at home - everyone could see them getting on top before their goal accept one man. We get our third chance and blow it again. I am fed up of accepting his mediocrity. Lovely guy but out of his depth when up against coaches with a footballing brain. |
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Post by iot on Apr 6, 2024 15:05:28 GMT
Agree completely with the first para, lots of nonsense in the other two. You only had to watch the latest Spurs game to see how badly Brennan faded in the last 30 after a promising first half, and that’s been a pattern in a lot of his Spurs performances. Seen lots saying James was played as a right back which is just nonsense and designed to exaggerate the mistake of playing him at wing back. That’s not semantics, there’s a big difference between the two. I felt Page made a few mistakes in the final too, although there’s a bigger picture to consider. If you think about the result, 0-0 against a stronger side (on paper) in Poland is certainly not the terrible result it’s being billed up to be. Another manager may have made better decisions at the 60min mark to turn the game more in our favour. Equally, another manager may have made poorer decisions in how we were set up, or failed to get as much out of our players (who clearly love Page) leading us to go behind. Moving to a back 4 after Roberts went off may have led to Polish goals - I wanted us to take the risk, but we don’t know how it would have turned out. As for your last point - the obvious irony being Page is the only person in Welsh football history to actually qualify for a World Cup (something Coleman failed to do with a world class Bale and Ramsey), so I just think it’s a very poor point Page? No sorry I think Bale had far more to do with us reaching a WC not Page and everyone knows it. Austria was a great performance but Bale was the spark. People forget we were poor at home against the 10 man Czechs but won and against Ukraine for 60 mins. Poland are not Belgium, Italy or even Ukraine or Hungary. They are currently very mediocre. We have no god given right to beat them but we had the massive advantage of being at home and pace. We blew it, Don't give me bigger picture - we had a massive opportunity and 120 minutes to make it and most of us feel Page make bad decisions. He is a very poor coach and I am really fed up knowing he is a handicap to us. I accepted poor performances up until the WC but that tournament made his limitations and terrible calls plain to see for all. Going through the next tournaments and seeing mistake after mistake. Armenia 1 point from 6 ffs (of and not the first time either was it - without Bale we lose to Belarus away and we drew with Estonia at home!). Even after the home humiliation, the players turn it around with a great performance - playing for the manager. That is great but he needs to contribute and we below our second chance in the next game our in Armenia where we were terrible. Against Turkey at home - everyone could see them getting on top before their goal accept one man. We get our third chance and blow it again. I am fed up of accepting his mediocrity. Lovely guy but out of his depth when up against coaches with a footballing brain. Oh ok, so it was Bale that qualified us for the World Cup. How do you explain we failed to qualify in 2018 with Bale at the peak of his powers, which he certainly wasn’t in 2022? Does not compute. Sorry to say, but I think that poor statement in itself and inability to credit Page in any sense reveals your complete lack of objectivity here. Oh so because Poland aren’t at Belgium’s level we should expect to beat them and sack the manager if we fail to do so? You may think they’re mediocre (and they certainly relative to the top sides) but they have better players than us and have qualified for practically every tournament for a reason. He would only be a handicap to us if he gets less out of us than the alternative (whoever that may be) would. I don’t think that’s clear cut at all. Rest of your post you’re just repeating things that are done to death and selectively picking out results that support your argument, ignoring all the ones that don’t. |
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