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Post by fiveattheback on Jun 19, 2023 22:43:36 GMT
Disagree. There hasn't been an opportunity to play him. I don't recall anyone here really calling for him to be starting any games. He's also not made an impact at club level yet so I'm unsure of how good he is or could be The game was gone once their second went in, why not give him 10 minutes? |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Jun 19, 2023 23:37:05 GMT
Disagree. There hasn't been an opportunity to play him. I don't recall anyone here really calling for him to be starting any games. He's also not made an impact at club level yet so I'm unsure of how good he is or could be The game was gone once their second went in, why not give him 10 minutes? I was thinking that but I don't think there was a way of getting him on after the last set of subs. Bradshaw, Broadhead & James on as subs, plus Ampadu and you can't bring him on for any of them Cos we were playing a back 5 we couldn't shift things around either |
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Post by fiveattheback on Jun 20, 2023 10:13:40 GMT
The game was gone once their second went in, why not give him 10 minutes? I was thinking that but I don't think there was a way of getting him on after the last set of subs. Bradshaw, Broadhead & James on as subs, plus Ampadu and you can't bring him on for any of them Cos we were playing a back 5 we couldn't shift things around either Could have brought him on instead of Broadhead |
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Post by paj on Jun 20, 2023 11:01:03 GMT
I was thinking that but I don't think there was a way of getting him on after the last set of subs. Bradshaw, Broadhead & James on as subs, plus Ampadu and you can't bring him on for any of them Cos we were playing a back 5 we couldn't shift things around either Could have brought him on instead of Broadhead But Broadhead is also learning, needs game time, and is older. What message would that have given him? |
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Post by fiveattheback on Jun 20, 2023 11:30:48 GMT
Could have brought him on instead of Broadhead But Broadhead is also learning, needs game time, and is older. What message would that have given him? That just because you scored in Croatia doesn't mean you're guaranteed games? The sub didn't make a great deal of sense anyway, Broadhead's a winger who was coming on to play in midfield, Harris is actually a midfielder. I'm baffled that we haven't given Harris an opportunity at any point to be honest. |
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Post by Dubai Reds on Jun 21, 2023 1:24:32 GMT
But Broadhead is also learning, needs game time, and is older. What message would that have given him? That just because you scored in Croatia doesn't mean you're guaranteed games? The sub didn't make a great deal of sense anyway, Broadhead's a winger who was coming on to play in midfield, Harris is actually a midfielder. I'm baffled that we haven't given Harris an opportunity at any point to be honest. I agree, that sub mean we went from 5-3-1 to playing 5-2-2, despite being 2-0 down, with 10 men, and away in Turkey ith 5 minutes to go with them gunning for more. Just shows Page' shortsightedness and goes against the idea that we are in "transition", we've seen what Broadhead can do but what about a position we are completly short in numbers. I would of put on Harris to bulk up the midfield and close the game out (however negative that may be), but that is giving him minutes in a position we are struggling and experience against a team with their tails up gives him a brief opportunity to see what he can do. |
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Post by morg on Jun 21, 2023 7:30:09 GMT
Page seems to have preconceived ideas re what changes are possible which don't alter in the moment. I'd say he has Harris inked in for a debut v Gibraltar and is currently on squad experience building up to that. Think he would have appeared by now under previous managers.
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Post by allezlesrouges on Jun 21, 2023 8:03:13 GMT
I was thinking that but I don't think there was a way of getting him on after the last set of subs. Bradshaw, Broadhead & James on as subs, plus Ampadu and you can't bring him on for any of them Cos we were playing a back 5 we couldn't shift things around either Could have brought him on instead of Broadhead But then you're bringing on a 19 year old and an 18 year old to form your midfield 3 with Ampadu. If we had done that and then conceded Page would have been taking pelters. It's been very difficult to get Harris on the pitch but his time will come in September. He needs to secure a loan as well because to date he has no significant senior football under his belt |
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Post by dai on Jun 21, 2023 8:24:58 GMT
Could have brought him on instead of Broadhead But then you're bringing on a 19 year old and an 18 year old to form your midfield 3 with Ampadu. If we had done that and then conceded Page would have been taking pelters. It's been very difficult to get Harris on the pitch but his time will come in September. He needs to secure a loan as well because to date he has no significant senior football under his belt Well if he's still in charge it will be interesting to see what he does next as Morrell will be banned for 2/3 matches now won't he. |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Jun 21, 2023 8:41:45 GMT
But then you're bringing on a 19 year old and an 18 year old to form your midfield 3 with Ampadu. If we had done that and then conceded Page would have been taking pelters. It's been very difficult to get Harris on the pitch but his time will come in September. He needs to secure a loan as well because to date he has no significant senior football under his belt Well if he's still in charge it will be interesting to see what he does next as Morrell will be banned for 2/3 matches now won't he. Yeah, well in my opinion it will be Terry Taylor who comes in for the next window - might go straight into the XI. Keep a very close eye on who he moves to, and hopefully he gets a full pre-season. For my money he'll be the next one who makes a name for himself in terms of being a starting player for us |
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Post by jimbo82 on Jun 21, 2023 8:43:25 GMT
But then you're bringing on a 19 year old and an 18 year old to form your midfield 3 with Ampadu. If we had done that and then conceded Page would have been taking pelters. It's been very difficult to get Harris on the pitch but his time will come in September. He needs to secure a loan as well because to date he has no significant senior football under his belt Well if he's still in charge it will be interesting to see what he does next as Morrell will be banned for 2/3 matches now won't he. I think (and hope) it's only a 1 match ban for a red card in the qualifying rounds. |
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Post by dai on Jun 21, 2023 8:44:03 GMT
Well if he's still in charge it will be interesting to see what he does next as Morrell will be banned for 2/3 matches now won't he. Yeah, well in my opinion it will be Terry Taylor who comes in for the next window - might go straight into the XI. Keep a very close eye on who he moves to, and hopefully he gets a full pre-season. For my money he'll be the next one who makes a name for himself in terms of being a starting player for us I agree, some good noises about Taylor. But Page won't chuck a newbie into a starting 11, no chance. It will most likely be Levitt. |
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Post by fiveattheback on Jun 21, 2023 9:15:09 GMT
Could have brought him on instead of Broadhead But then you're bringing on a 19 year old and an 18 year old to form your midfield 3 with Ampadu. If we had done that and then conceded Page would have been taking pelters. It's been very difficult to get Harris on the pitch but his time will come in September. He needs to secure a loan as well because to date he has no significant senior football under his belt The game was gone at that point and as it was we brought on a winger anyway. Page has taken pelters regardless, I don't think he'd have had shit for bringing on Harris I agree with what a poster said that Page seems to have preconceived ideas regarding subs even if they make little sense Even if you don't want to bring on Hsrris there is a wider question to be asked regarding the insufficient number of midfielders. Why are we in a position away in Turkey where the only genuine midfielders on the bench are 2 untried teenagers? |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Jun 21, 2023 15:00:01 GMT
But then you're bringing on a 19 year old and an 18 year old to form your midfield 3 with Ampadu. If we had done that and then conceded Page would have been taking pelters. It's been very difficult to get Harris on the pitch but his time will come in September. He needs to secure a loan as well because to date he has no significant senior football under his belt The game was gone at that point and as it was we brought on a winger anyway. Page has taken pelters regardless, I don't think he'd have had shit for bringing on Harris I agree with what a poster said that Page seems to have preconceived ideas regarding subs even if they make little sense Even if you don't want to bring on Hsrris there is a wider question to be asked regarding the insufficient number of midfielders. Why are we in a position away in Turkey where the only genuine midfielders on the bench are 2 untried teenagers?That's my main issue. We should have an experienced alternative to Morrell in that squad, rather than having to drop Ramsey back ahead of putting a teenager on. Tom Lowery, Sheehan or MJ Williams all solid experienced players at L1 level. Better to have them as a solid option that can plug a gap in my opinion |
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Post by fiveattheback on Jul 27, 2023 20:07:09 GMT
Played a bit for Fulham in pre season and now looks set to go on loan to Exeter. Good to go on loan, needs to get games under his belt
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Post by iot on Jul 27, 2023 20:11:49 GMT
Played a bit for Fulham in pre season and now looks set to go on loan to Exeter. Good to go on loan, needs to get games under his belt At just 18 and with next to no senior football, a loan to League 1 looks like a decent move. He just needs to show he can replicate his u23 form at senior level, and then his career could really take off |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Jul 27, 2023 20:15:47 GMT
Played a bit for Fulham in pre season and now looks set to go on loan to Exeter. Good to go on loan, needs to get games under his belt At just 18 and with next to no senior football, a loan to League 1 looks like a decent move. He just needs to show he can replicate his u23 form at senior level, and then his career could really take off I find it hard to get excited about a player until they start doing it at senior level. Completely different kettle of fish! Brennan did well in League One and would be good to see Harris do the same |
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Post by iot on Jul 27, 2023 21:27:35 GMT
At just 18 and with next to no senior football, a loan to League 1 looks like a decent move. He just needs to show he can replicate his u23 form at senior level, and then his career could really take off I find it hard to get excited about a player until they start doing it at senior level. Completely different kettle of fish! Brennan did well in League One and would be good to see Harris do the same Obviously there are far more Woodburn type examples of players tearing it up at youth level and never able to do the same against senior pros. But equally, in almost every instance where players have made it to the top of the highest level, there were noises about them during their youth days. I remember Cardiff getting bids of a million quid for Rambo before he'd played a minute of senior football and he was expected to be the next big thing because of his performances at youth level. There were rumours of Chelsea making a £30 million offer for Harris last summer. So there's enough there to be excited about imo, even if his career doesn't eventually take off. |
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Post by dai on Jul 27, 2023 21:56:18 GMT
A slight reality check for a number of fans who have arguably overrated him on here and social media.
We'll see how he does in League 1, but I think there's a case for choosing someone like Ryan Howley (played some games for coventry last season) instead now if the criteria is picking a youngster to have a look at and warm the bench.
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Post by iot on Jul 28, 2023 8:31:51 GMT
A slight reality check for a number of fans who have arguably overrated him on here and social media. We'll see how he does in League 1, but I think there's a case for choosing someone like Ryan Howley (played some games for coventry last season) instead now if the criteria is picking a youngster to have a look at and warm the bench. Care to provide examples of people overrating him on here? I've only seen people saying he has a lot of potential, as evidenced by the goal per game he's been scoring at u23 level (since he was 16) from midfield, his involvement in Fulham's first team squad since the age of 17, and the interest from top clubs (£30m bid from Chelsea). I haven't seen anyone saying he's going to be the next big thing, only that he has the potential to be if he translates his youth form into senior football - which is a pretty big caveat! So no reality check on my part anyway (and I can't see why it would change anyone else's perception of him), I think a L1 loan is a decent first step. |
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Post by bale-droed on Jul 28, 2023 8:40:01 GMT
I think people tend to have different opinions on overrating or getting excited. Personally when I get excited about a player for me potential means he's going to make it to premier league or championship level. Other people see or hear the word potential and they immediately think everyone thinks he's going to be as good as Bale.
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Post by iot on Jul 28, 2023 8:48:37 GMT
I think people tend to have different opinions on overrating or getting excited. Personally when I get excited about a player for me potential means he's going to make it to premier league or championship level. Other people see or hear the word potential and they immediately think everyone thinks he's going to be as good as Bale. I think you're re-defining the word 'potential' there. Potential is about the level a player could reach if everything else falls into place. Players like Gunter and Taylor probably achieved their full potential and maxed out on their talent, whereas Woodburn had much more potential but looks like he'll end up having a more mediocre career than the other two. |
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Post by fiveattheback on Jul 28, 2023 9:20:16 GMT
A slight reality check for a number of fans who have arguably overrated him on here and social media. We'll see how he does in League 1, but I think there's a case for choosing someone like Ryan Howley (played some games for coventry last season) instead now if the criteria is picking a youngster to have a look at and warm the bench. Care to provide examples of people overrating him on here? I've only seen people saying he has a lot of potential, as evidenced by the goal per game he's been scoring at u23 level (since he was 16) from midfield, his involvement in Fulham's first team squad since the age of 17, and the interest from top clubs (£30m bid from Chelsea). I haven't seen anyone saying he's going to be the next big thing, only that he has the potential to be if he translates his youth form into senior football - which is a pretty big caveat! So no reality check on my part anyway (and I can't see why it would change anyone else's perception of him), I think a L1 loan is a decent first step. It's also very difficult to get a player a first loan move, clubs are hesitant unless they have some record of senior football/come from a top club. That's why Cardiff are starting to send more players to the Cymru Prem, to get them that senior club on the cv so they can get a better loan move in a couple of months. Has Tom Davies gone from Cymru Prem to Scottish Prem ability wise in 6 months? No, but the record of senior football means more clubs will take a look It's shows how highly thought of Harris is that he's ended up in League 1 for his first loan, now he needs to show that he's worth the hype (which hasn't just come from Wales fans) |
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Post by dai on Jul 28, 2023 9:46:27 GMT
A slight reality check for a number of fans who have arguably overrated him on here and social media. We'll see how he does in League 1, but I think there's a case for choosing someone like Ryan Howley (played some games for coventry last season) instead now if the criteria is picking a youngster to have a look at and warm the bench. Care to provide examples of people overrating him on here? I've only seen people saying he has a lot of potential, as evidenced by the goal per game he's been scoring at u23 level (since he was 16) from midfield, his involvement in Fulham's first team squad since the age of 17, and the interest from top clubs (£30m bid from Chelsea). I haven't seen anyone saying he's going to be the next big thing, only that he has the potential to be if he translates his youth form into senior football - which is a pretty big caveat! So no reality check on my part anyway (and I can't see why it would change anyone else's perception of him), I think a L1 loan is a decent first step. I can't be arsed to bring up references or examples, but I've seen plenty of talk on here and on the socials about how he's the 'future of our midfield' and how we should 'build the team around him'. A lot of big talk based on very little imo. Woodburn, Levitt and a few other Welsh youngsters were stand outs at club youth level but haven't lived up to the hype. The very best youth players at PL level tend to break through to their respective first teams, or at least be given proper opportunities. Woodburn was given some opportunities for example, and that was at Liverpool. Is he not Fulham's stand out youth player? It's a busy footballing calendar these days. Why wouldn't your stand out youth player be given chances at cup games etc, or even a few more appearances off the bench to bed him in? What are the advantages of sending your best youth player to a struggling League 1 side over incorporating him into your actual senior squad through sub appearances and opportunities at cup games? My gut instinct is that he will struggle a bit, like a lot of our other youngsters who've been sent on loan at young ages. |
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Post by iot on Jul 28, 2023 10:17:02 GMT
Care to provide examples of people overrating him on here? I've only seen people saying he has a lot of potential, as evidenced by the goal per game he's been scoring at u23 level (since he was 16) from midfield, his involvement in Fulham's first team squad since the age of 17, and the interest from top clubs (£30m bid from Chelsea). I haven't seen anyone saying he's going to be the next big thing, only that he has the potential to be if he translates his youth form into senior football - which is a pretty big caveat! So no reality check on my part anyway (and I can't see why it would change anyone else's perception of him), I think a L1 loan is a decent first step. I can't be arsed to bring up references or examples, but I've seen plenty of talk on here and on the socials about how he's the 'future of our midfield' and how we should 'build the team around him'. A lot of big talk based on very little imo. Woodburn, Levitt and a few other Welsh youngsters were stand outs at club youth level but haven't lived up to the hype. The very best youth players at PL level tend to break through to their respective first teams, or at least be given proper opportunities. Woodburn was given some opportunities for example, and that was at Liverpool. My gut instinct is that he will struggle a bit, like a lot of our other youngsters who've been sent on loan at young ages. "I've seen plenty of talk on here and on the socials about how he's the 'future of our midfield' and how we should 'build the team around him'." I've seen nothing written in that way about him, and I spend much more time than I should on Welsh football content, so I'm sceptical about that claim tbh. There are plenty of examples where top players get their first experience through loans initially, or when they do play meaningful minutes for their club they don't do so until they're slightly older (Harris is only 18). For example, if we look at England's stand-out players: - Kane went on 4 loans and didn't break through at Spurs until the age of 22 - Grealish went on loan to Notts County as an 18yo - Foden didn't start getting more than a token few appearances until he was 19/20 Or if we look closer to home, Rambo was only breaking through at Arsenal at around 19/20, and Bale was struggling at Spurs until he was 21. It's the same for most youngsters. No two paths are the same. There's a very good chance that Harris won't fulfil his potential, but what is not in doubt is that he's currently considered to be one of the top youth prospects in the UK. |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Jul 28, 2023 11:13:09 GMT
A slight reality check for a number of fans who have arguably overrated him on here and social media. We'll see how he does in League 1, but I think there's a case for choosing someone like Ryan Howley (played some games for coventry last season) instead now if the criteria is picking a youngster to have a look at and warm the bench. Care to provide examples of people overrating him on here? I've only seen people saying he has a lot of potential, as evidenced by the goal per game he's been scoring at u23 level (since he was 16) from midfield, his involvement in Fulham's first team squad since the age of 17, and the interest from top clubs (£30m bid from Chelsea). I haven't seen anyone saying he's going to be the next big thing, only that he has the potential to be if he translates his youth form into senior football - which is a pretty big caveat! So no reality check on my part anyway (and I can't see why it would change anyone else's perception of him), I think a L1 loan is a decent first step. To be fair I have seen people on here who are very anti-Page who have said things like not giving Harris a cap shows it's a closed shop, shows that Page is less brave than Giggs, that it shows Page is incompetent that Harris hasn't already been phased in. Sentiments that I completely disagree with, so I think Dai is correct in what he's saying However, I think this is a great move. I think sometimes Premier League clubs have the tendancy to loan players to the Championship first, and then sometimes you see that it's too soon and they don't get any minutes, and that causes a career delay of 1 year. It's positive that they are sending him to League One, as I think he has a much bigger chance of getting regular minutes and performing well at that level For me it's not a reality check of his potential, I think he still has high potential, it's just the reality of what an 18 can do in the modern EFL pyramid. The Championship is essentially Premier League 2 these days, and League One is also better than it used to be |
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Post by fiveattheback on Jul 28, 2023 11:50:25 GMT
I can't be arsed to bring up references or examples, but I've seen plenty of talk on here and on the socials about how he's the 'future of our midfield' and how we should 'build the team around him'. A lot of big talk based on very little imo. Woodburn, Levitt and a few other Welsh youngsters were stand outs at club youth level but haven't lived up to the hype. The very best youth players at PL level tend to break through to their respective first teams, or at least be given proper opportunities. Woodburn was given some opportunities for example, and that was at Liverpool. My gut instinct is that he will struggle a bit, like a lot of our other youngsters who've been sent on loan at young ages. "I've seen plenty of talk on here and on the socials about how he's the 'future of our midfield' and how we should 'build the team around him'." I've seen nothing written in that way about him, and I spend much more time than I should on Welsh football content, so I'm sceptical about that claim tbh. There are plenty of examples where top players get their first experience through loans initially, or when they do play meaningful minutes for their club they don't do so until they're slightly older (Harris is only 18). For example, if we look at England's stand-out players: - Kane went on 4 loans and didn't break through at Spurs until the age of 22 - Grealish went on loan to Notts County as an 18yo - Foden didn't start getting more than a token few appearances until he was 19/20 Or if we look closer to home, Rambo was only breaking through at Arsenal at around 19/20, and Bale was struggling at Spurs until he was 21. It's the same for most youngsters. No two paths are the same. There's a very good chance that Harris won't fulfil his potential, but what is not in doubt is that he's currently considered to be one of the top youth prospects in the UK. I agree with the general point you're making, but Ramsey was in Arsenal's first team at 18, he'd played almost 60 games for Arsenal in all competitions by the time Shawcross snapped his leg as a 20 year old and had already broken into a solid Championship outfit as a 17 year old. Ramsey though was a freak and isn't the kind of player we should be comparing our youngsters to, he was widely considered one if not the best prospect in British football from a young age that's an unfairly high bar to measure youngsters against, had he remained injury free he'd have been something really special (more so than he was anyway). A League 1 loan is positive for a teenager, we saw with Ampadu (Leipzig) and Woodburn (Sheffield United) the dangers of sending a player out to high too soon, he should get into the side and get plenty of good experience |
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Post by iot on Jul 28, 2023 12:02:14 GMT
"I've seen plenty of talk on here and on the socials about how he's the 'future of our midfield' and how we should 'build the team around him'." I've seen nothing written in that way about him, and I spend much more time than I should on Welsh football content, so I'm sceptical about that claim tbh. There are plenty of examples where top players get their first experience through loans initially, or when they do play meaningful minutes for their club they don't do so until they're slightly older (Harris is only 18). For example, if we look at England's stand-out players: - Kane went on 4 loans and didn't break through at Spurs until the age of 22 - Grealish went on loan to Notts County as an 18yo - Foden didn't start getting more than a token few appearances until he was 19/20 Or if we look closer to home, Rambo was only breaking through at Arsenal at around 19/20, and Bale was struggling at Spurs until he was 21. It's the same for most youngsters. No two paths are the same. There's a very good chance that Harris won't fulfil his potential, but what is not in doubt is that he's currently considered to be one of the top youth prospects in the UK. I agree with the general point you're making, but Ramsey was in Arsenal's first team at 18, he'd played almost 60 games for Arsenal in all competitions by the time Shawcross snapped his leg as a 20 year old and had already broken into a solid Championship outfit as a 17 year old. Ramsey though was a freak and isn't the kind of player we should be comparing our youngsters to, he was widely considered one if not the best prospect in British football from a young age that's an unfairly high bar to measure youngsters against, had he remained injury free he'd have been something really special (more so than he was anyway). A League 1 loan is positive for a teenager, we saw with Ampadu (Leipzig) and Woodburn (Sheffield United) the dangers of sending a player out to high too soon, he should get into the side and get plenty of good experience Don't think that's quite right about Ramsey. Without googling the stats, what I remember is that he was in that stage of going in and out of the Cardiff first team under Dave Jones to introduce him to first team football without putting too much pressure on him e.g. I don't think he started the FA Cup final? He then followed a similar pattern with Arsenal in his first couple of seasons - again being gradually introduced to the team, playing cup games mostly and usually prem games when there wasn't a massive amount riding on it, although he was being used more and more as a rotational option. I don't think he could be described as a first team player by the time of his injury as a 20yo even if he had amassed 60 appearances over a couple of season (guessing the vast majority would have been from the bench or in cup games). In the same way, Jordan James certainly hasn't been a first team player for Birmingham despite having 50-60 appearances under his belt over the last couple of seasons. But I think we're both on the same page. I think there are parallels with how Ramsey was rated at a similar age, even if Harris doesn't achieve half as much as he did. I can't think of many Premier league academy prospects that have been rated higher than Harris over the last couple of years. |
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Post by welshwhite on Jul 28, 2023 17:30:56 GMT
Played a bit for Fulham in pre season and now looks set to go on loan to Exeter. Good to go on loan, needs to get games under his belt Has this been confirmed ? Exeter would be a tidy move, a progressive club with a young squad playing proper football. L1 is tough and unforgiving though, but this would be great opportunity if he really is that good. |
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Post by morg on Sept 2, 2023 14:26:41 GMT
On as a 16th minute sub away to Man City. This would be some chance to take!
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