The rebuild

[rushy]

Nov 30, 2022 10:34:35 GMT aberbeeg said:

Nov 30, 2022 10:31:25 GMT rushy said:

Don't feel much better this morning following last nights game , and reading 2 wins in 12 matches this year under Page means we are going downhill fast, a change must be priority now.

If he was a club manager he would have been sacked already. The Ukraine result has papered over the very big cracks that have appeared over the past year.  
if Page was sacked today I doubt very much he would get job higher than League 2 

The next games are in March so now is the time to act.

[dai]

Nov 30, 2022 9:16:30 GMT allezlesrouges said:

For me it should be Regan Poole in for Gunter, Oli Cooper/Luke Harris in for Jonny

I think finding the right system is the most important thing, more so than changeover of personnel which will happen gradually

Last night I feel that the 4-2-3-1 showed it's weaknesses, in that Kieffer was easily isolated, and couldn't bring Ramsey into the game. When he could find Ramsey he didn't have the pace to do anything

In a 4-4-2 I think giving a strike partner to Kieffer who has pace and can feed off of him is the most important thing moving forwards, I think Brennan suits that role for now, but we'd still need pace in the wide areas

The reality has been when we play Moore/Ramsey/Bale in our front line there is no pace there, aside from 1 other player who can easily targeted. We need pace all across our attack if Moore is to be our platform

There's a very good RB/RWB playing every single minute for Bolton and vice-captain, Gethin Jones. Surely needs to be looked at because we are light in that position.

[toshfan]

Nov 29, 2022 22:45:57 GMT welshrover said:

Do we now do a Toshack / Flynn and start again. Some youngsters about and some we could lose out on. Is it time to bring some in and secure them for the future?

Just asking the question.

The good news for me is:

1. Where we are now is not comparable to the mess that Toshack inherited.

2. Supporters have learnt from recent history on the importance of identifying when a rebuild is required. Looking back, Ryan Giggs did an excellent job in this context. Episode 3 of Together Stronger covered this very well I thought.

[welshrover]

However the rebuild comes can it start on the football pitch.

Personally I am now quite embarrassed by the "pride and passion" statements, the endless nation Cymru reports of choirs "stunning commuters on Doha metro" etc.

Don't even start me on the gibberish our ambassador Ian Rush was spouting last night. The happy to be here claptrap.

We need to positively move forward quickly in securing future players now, Harris, Koumas, Ap Sion etc before they are included in the many more age group games England seem to play.

Depressingly reading the census results yesterday over 25% of people in Flintshire (and some other border counties showing similar)) were recorded as English so expect many more tug of wars over future players.

[talyfan]

I think one thing for me with the squad selection there was too many players who offered us the same thing on the bench. Definitely feel we need different options if and when we need to change things up. I'm just going to take an example of Morrell, Levitt and Smith. Who I feel are 3 of the same player for us at this moment in time. Busy, small in stature, keeps it simple and ticking over don't really offer you too much going forward. Now for me in hindsight I wouldn't have bothered with two of them and instead taking a big lump like Vokes or Doidge and then either a left footed left back or another Ampadu-esque midfielder just to give us presence in the middle of the park along with defending /attacking set pieces.

[talyfan]

Nov 30, 2022 10:36:18 GMT dai said:

Nov 30, 2022 9:16:30 GMT allezlesrouges said:

For me it should be Regan Poole in for Gunter, Oli Cooper/Luke Harris in for Jonny

I think finding the right system is the most important thing, more so than changeover of personnel which will happen gradually

Last night I feel that the 4-2-3-1 showed it's weaknesses, in that Kieffer was easily isolated, and couldn't bring Ramsey into the game. When he could find Ramsey he didn't have the pace to do anything

In a 4-4-2 I think giving a strike partner to Kieffer who has pace and can feed off of him is the most important thing moving forwards, I think Brennan suits that role for now, but we'd still need pace in the wide areas

The reality has been when we play Moore/Ramsey/Bale in our front line there is no pace there, aside from 1 other player who can easily targeted. We need pace all across our attack if Moore is to be our platform

There's a very good RB/RWB playing every single minute for Bolton and vice-captain, Gethin Jones. Surely needs to be looked at because we are light in that position.

Niall Huggins one to keep an eye on just come back from injury for Sunderland. Can play either side too 

[aberbeeg]

In hindsight half the squad could have stayed at home. No chance of a lot of them even getting a minute of game time. 

[wft]

World class manager with proven vision, 4year 10 mill contract. sell off a castle to the Americans in pieces on ebay.
if it doesn't work (unlikely) sell off another and repeat.

[dai]

Something I've been meaning to say. Looking back at our most recent/previous managers;

Speed, put his stamp on the team by changing the culture, and implenting a style of play based on total football.

Coleman, puts his stamp on the team by making Ashley captain, going 5 at the back, making us hard to beat, and instilling belief.

Giggs, puts his stamp on the team by removing older players and giving youth opportunities which paid off after a rough start.

Page has just picked up where Giggs left off and just let the players 'carry on'. There's been no personal stamp from Page on this team, and I don't think he's capable of it either. He's had two years for crying out loud.

I think a change of manager is in order, but a few stamps I would do if I was in Pages' shoes. Make Ben Davies captain. Bale and Ramsey to offer supporting roles if their club careers continue to be average. Choose a formation and stick with it - even if it takes time to work. At least then players know where they're playing and what they're doing.

[allezlesrouges]

Nov 30, 2022 10:36:18 GMT dai said:

Nov 30, 2022 9:16:30 GMT allezlesrouges said:

For me it should be Regan Poole in for Gunter, Oli Cooper/Luke Harris in for Jonny

I think finding the right system is the most important thing, more so than changeover of personnel which will happen gradually

Last night I feel that the 4-2-3-1 showed it's weaknesses, in that Kieffer was easily isolated, and couldn't bring Ramsey into the game. When he could find Ramsey he didn't have the pace to do anything

In a 4-4-2 I think giving a strike partner to Kieffer who has pace and can feed off of him is the most important thing moving forwards, I think Brennan suits that role for now, but we'd still need pace in the wide areas

The reality has been when we play Moore/Ramsey/Bale in our front line there is no pace there, aside from 1 other player who can easily targeted. We need pace all across our attack if Moore is to be our platform

There's a very good RB/RWB playing every single minute for Bolton and vice-captain, Gethin Jones. Surely needs to be looked at because we are light in that position.

Yes I'd like us to look at him, MJ Williams too. We're in desperate need of a friendly to really look at a few League One options

[conwy10]

I'd say to Osian Roberts if he comes in as assistant he will move up to manager once Page's contract is up. Or tell Page we're bringing in Osian to take on the team but you can still be the figurehead to save face on that.

I know he's doing well at Palace but I think he said it's always been his dream to be Wales manager. I always sense we had direction under him. We've been doing well in recent years but I think it's just cause we had a bit of fuel left in the tank.

[scarfer]

Osian should have had the job in the first place IMO when he was lined up for it Vs Giggsy

[morg]

Nov 30, 2022 12:31:30 GMT conwy10 said:

I'd say to Osian Roberts if he comes in as assistant he will move up to manager once Page's contract is up. Or tell Page we're bringing in Osian to take on the team but you can still be the figurehead to save face on that.

I know he's doing well at Palace but I think he said it's always been his dream to be Wales manager. I always sense we had direction under him. We've been doing well in recent years but I think it's just cause we had a bit of fuel left in the tank.

Yep, definitely with a view to taking over. What might sell to him in the short term is an immediate chance to influence things so that he doesn't inherit a complete disaster when he got the main job. He's well placed to bring in other coaches too given his reputation.

Does anyone see Martinez as an outside bet. Can't see him being long for Belgium. Very doubtful but he does have strong Welsh connections.

[marsvolta]

Nov 30, 2022 10:47:38 GMT aberbeeg said:

Nov 30, 2022 10:44:04 GMT talyfan said:

I think one thing for me with the squad selection there was too many players who offered us the same thing on the bench. Definitely feel we need different options if and when we need to change things up. I'm just going to take an example of Morrell, Levitt and Smith. Who I feel are 3 of the are the same player for us at this moment in time. Busy, small in stature, keeps it simple and ticking over don't really offer you too much going forward. Now for me in hindsight I wouldn't have bothered with two of them and instead taking a big lump like Vokes or Doidge and then either a left footed left back or another Ampadu-esque midfielder just to give us presence in the middle of the park along with defending /attacking set pieces.

In hindsight half the squad could have stayed at home. No chance of a lot of them even getting a minute of game time. 

And ironically, the half that didn’t play caused the most arguments and discussion when the squad was announced. (Well not half the squad,8 didn’t play but the point still stands)

[conwy10]

I do like the idea of Martinez, but I think Roberts has been the one who was always under our nose that we just couldn't see.

I think I've read before that if he had the job he would have bought Arteta in as his assistant. The guy who's top of the Premier League. Instead we had a manager who was off on leave for 12 months.

[llan123]

There's no way Osian Roberts leaves Palace for us, he's enjoying being number two for a young exciting premier league side. I can't see him abandoning that project. He's had quite a meteoric rise over the past 15 years, he's not going to walk out on his current job just yet.

Sounds like a really stupid thing to say but we just need to get a settled first 11. It's possible to cobble together a really good competitive side, we will never have strength in depth unfortunately and there will always be dross in every squad whatever some Welsh fans believe who love blowing smoke up the arse of every Welsh qualified player.

[jimexotic]

I wouldn't want Martinez, he has absolutely no idea how to make a team into a tight defensive unit when they haven't got the ball and his teams do something I absolutely hate, they mess around at the back and make mistakes. He got away with it at Swansea because of the level they were at, Wigan were terrible for it, at Everton it started to get ridiculous and rather than sort it out he seemed to encourage it more which resulted in John Stones making a careers worth of errors in the space of a season or so. At Belgium he inherited one of the most talented sides in the World but once the slide started he's been unable to do anything about it, they have brilliant footballers so again his side play it around at the back and it isn't such an issue with them but for us it would be our undoing as it was last night. I can't watch anymore of that, it's suicidal.

[walesgolfmadrid]

Talk of new managers is futile, Page has nearly 4 years left on his deal and will manage us for Euros qualifying.

Martinez isn't coming here, we can't afford someone of that profile and we aren't going to be close to the top of the most attractive options available to him - even if Belgium get knocked out of the group stage.

[gimli]

Page isn't leaving at least until after the Euro qualifying campaign so no point saying we need to replace him. I agree that we definitely need a better backroom staff to support him though.

I don't think we need a massive rebuild. The core is already there. What we need to do is supplement that core and find a system that works for them rather than chopping and changing and running around like headless chickens every game like we have been.

The team now needs to be built around a core of Davies, Neco, Ampadu, Johnson and Moore. The rest of the lineup should be up for grabs, and we need to expand the player pool and get some good competition in for those places.

I don't think this should be the end for Bale, Ramsey and Allen either. They have plenty more to give, but their roles need to change, and they shouldn't be guaranteed starters anymore. Assuming Bale doesn't retire, he needs to be an impact sub from here on out. He clearly doesn't have the legs to last a whole match or even 60 mins comfortably, so we should be saving him for the last 20 or 30 mins of the game when we're chasing a goal. I think Allen and Ramsey still have it in them to start games, but they need to be managed well and used in systems that play to their strengths.

I believe the demise of Ramsey in particular has been greatly exaggerated. He certainly still has the legs to still start and play 60+ mins, he's been doing it regularly for Nice this year (when fit), and he's still consistently one of the players that cover the most ground in games. It's the system or lack thereof that is failing him at the moment, and he's trying to do it all himself. I'm certain a decent manager could get him performing well for Wales again. We just need to hope we bring in a good attacking coach to help Page out.

[rushy]

Nov 30, 2022 13:11:16 GMT walesgolfmadrid said:

Talk of new managers is futile, Page has nearly 4 years left on his deal and will manage us for Euros qualifying.

Martinez isn't coming here, we can't afford someone of that profile and we aren't going to be close to the top of the most attractive options available to him - even if Belgium get knocked out of the group stage.

We are going backwards, 2 wins from the last 12 games highlights a rapid decline culminating in three desperate WC performances which even the normally placid WFA will be forced to review the situation at least.

[jimexotic]

Nov 30, 2022 13:49:06 GMT rushy said:

Nov 30, 2022 13:11:16 GMT walesgolfmadrid said:

Talk of new managers is futile, Page has nearly 4 years left on his deal and will manage us for Euros qualifying.

Martinez isn't coming here, we can't afford someone of that profile and we aren't going to be close to the top of the most attractive options available to him - even if Belgium get knocked out of the group stage.

We are going backwards, 2 wins from the last 12 games highlights a rapid decline culminating in three desperate WC performances which even the normally placid WFA will be forced to review the situation at least.

Losing has become a habit and it all feels like it's becoming acceptable, very Gould era and it has to stop straight away.

[mortillsy]

Nov 30, 2022 10:46:13 GMT talyfan said:

Nov 30, 2022 10:36:18 GMT dai said:

There's a very good RB/RWB playing every single minute for Bolton and vice-captain, Gethin Jones. Surely needs to be looked at because we are light in that position.

Niall Huggins one to keep an eye on just come back from injury for Sunderland. Can play either side too 

Agree regarding Poole and Cooper/Harris replacing the aforementioned.

Huggins is an exciting looking player. Really hope he has a run injury free now. Looks more a WB to me, he’d fit in to a back 5 nicely. Not sure about the defensive side of his game.

[allezlesrouges]

I can see Osian managing us at some point. But I can't see him leaving Palace at the moment. I think it will depend on how long Vieira stays. If he leaves at some point that might give Osh the opportunity to manage at PL level - and if he does well then who knows, he might just stay in club management for a while?

If he leaves along with Vieira then we could look towards him perhaps. But he's so passionate for us I can see it happening some day whenever the stars align

[bale-droed]

Nov 30, 2022 10:43:11 GMT welshrover said:

However the rebuild comes can it start on the football pitch.

Personally I am now quite embarrassed by the "pride and passion" statements, the endless nation Cymru reports of choirs "stunning commuters on Doha metro" etc.

Don't even start me on the gibberish our ambassador Ian Rush was spouting last night. The happy to be here claptrap.

We need to positively move forward quickly in securing future players now, Harris, Koumas, Ap Sion etc before they are included in the many more age group games England seem to play.

Depressingly reading the census results yesterday over 25% of people in Flintshire (and some other border counties showing similar)) were recorded as English so expect many more tug of wars over future players.

Completely agree with the first point. Every nation is passionate so let’s pipe down a bit. Seems arrogant to say we are the most passionate on repeat.

You’ve made a fantastic point about Lewis koumas. We all forget he exists. 9 in 9 for Liverpool under 18s in October. I’m pretty sure though harris can only play for us or rep of ire and it’s mad a player with the surname ap sion is involved with England. Modern world is crazy

[cadno]

Nov 30, 2022 8:14:37 GMT welwyn said:

Still think Locks is a vastly better CB than Mepham though.

Mepham is better than Rodon imo, Rodon most overrated cb I’ve seen in years

[saints19]

Nov 30, 2022 13:52:31 GMT jimexotic said:

Nov 30, 2022 13:49:06 GMT rushy said:

We are going backwards, 2 wins from the last 12 games highlights a rapid decline culminating in three desperate WC performances which even the normally placid WFA will be forced to review the situation at least.

Losing has become a habit and it all feels like it's becoming acceptable, very Gould era and it has to stop straight away.

We can't turn on a manager because we failed to get out of a World Cup group or got relegated from Nations League A. The quality of opposition has to be taken into account, the real litmus test will be the Euro qualifiers. If we fail in those I think we'd all agree it will be time for Page to depart gracefully. But I'm hopeful we won't - hard to be optimistic at the moment, but I still fully support Page and think talk about his position is ridiculous.

[bale-droed]

I’m assuming it’s happened a lot but if we are rebuilding and it’s the start of a new cycle I wonder if we will try to contact jay da Silva or Ash Phillips? Ash has to be top of the wish list but it’s probably not happening is it?

I’d love to see a double header friendly and try a few new players and give the colwill Johnson combo another try.

[reyrey]

Nov 30, 2022 12:14:00 GMT allezlesrouges said:

Nov 30, 2022 10:36:18 GMT dai said:

There's a very good RB/RWB playing every single minute for Bolton and vice-captain, Gethin Jones. Surely needs to be looked at because we are light in that position.

Yes I'd like us to look at him, MJ Williams too. We're in desperate need of a friendly to really look at a few League One options

Right back is the one position with neco and roberts that I think we are more than fine already.

[jimexotic]

Neco, Roberts and even Ampadu can play right back, it's left back that's a concern because Davies can't play there unless we're organised and after that it's Neco and that's that, Roberts failed miserably at left back last night.

[saturn9]

Nov 30, 2022 15:04:53 GMT bale-droed said:

I’m assuming it’s happened a lot but if we are rebuilding and it’s the start of a new cycle I wonder if we will try to contact jay da Silva or Ash Phillips? Ash has to be top of the wish list but it’s probably not happening is it?

I’d love to see a double header friendly and try a few new players and give the colwill Johnson combo another try.

Phillips has been sat on the bench more often than not for Blackburn, whenever I check their line ups. So as in the words of Chuck D, don't believe the hype just yet.