Euro 2024 Play Offs

[erasedcitizen]

Poor ref comments very interesting, and reckon part of the reason Moore didn't start. He was clearly very trigger happy with him in the air so I feel we'd done our homework on him.

Tonight just felt very well thought out, so well done to Page and the team for that.

[erasedcitizen]

Mar 21, 2024 23:15:09 GMT mrpicton79 said:

Mar 21, 2024 22:41:33 GMT erasedcitizen said:

It's an open forum, within reason you can post what you like.

Why would anyone congratulate Israel? There's many reasons that I don't really need to go through as to why I'm glad they're out.

Yeah there's plenty of people on the other side of that one. If you followed things properly you'd know that.

But as others have said there's probably a more appropriate thread where we can get into heavy political stuff.

As I said, brilliant result for Iceland.

Very interesting that they'll now play their final at a neutral venue also.

[iot]

A 10/10 result and 7/10 performance for me. I thought we were uncharacteristically very clinical and did really well on that front. Some of the counterattacking play was good and I was pleased with the second half performance. Like others have said, felt we stepped off far too much after going ahead, were too impatient, lacklustre in the press, and not tight enough defensively on occasion, so plenty of room for improvement. We’ll probably need a Croatia style 9/10 performance to beat the Poles

[chief]

Poland hugely different challenge to tonight. But we have to do our bit and I thought the atmosphere tonight was poor. The Canton was silent for long periods. I know the Barry Hornes aren't what they were 10 years ago, but there are players that we can sing about!

[iot]

My only other minor gripe is I feel we could have made more and earlier subs to conserve energy. I would have replaced Wilson with Broadhead around the 70min mark (not the 88th!), and think we should have considered bringing Sheehan and Da Silva possibly on for JJ and Neco - both looked tired towards the end. Would have been a risk obviously, but one worth taking imo to make sure we can go full throttle on Tuesday

[morg]

Mar 22, 2024 8:00:49 GMT iot said:

My only other minor gripe is I feel we could have made more and earlier subs to conserve energy. I would have replaced Wilson with Broadhead around the 70min mark (not the 88th!), and think we should have considered bringing Sheehan and Da Silva possibly on for JJ and Neco - both looked tired towards the end. Would have been a risk obviously, but one worth taking imo to make sure we can go full throttle on Tuesday

Have some sympathy with that but it's tricky isn't it? 3-1 didn't feel vaguely comfortable and Wilson still seemed our best bet of creating something. If Ben's goal has been given on 79 minutes, sure that the changes would have been made sooner. In terms of the Brookes and Johnson subs though, think he got those spot on.

[iot]

Ward - 6: wasn’t really tested and not at fault for the goal. Came out strongly to claim some crosses and his distribution was fine apart from one poor pass that put us in trouble

Roberts - 7: agree with another poster, his best game in a while. Was good defensively and decent in possession

Mepham - 5: the weak link last night. Did some good things with a couple of good balls downs the channels that led to some opportunities, but almost cost us early on with the intercepted pass, and was mainly at fault for their goal

Rodon - 6: was largely solid, although didn’t cover himself in glory for their goal either. That’s not the first time he and Meps have got in each other’s way and gone for the same player, leaving another free. The goal was easily avoidable - they need to work on their understanding. Thought he did well in the opposition box, which isn’t usually the case!

Davies - 6.5: felt he wasn’t quite at it last night. I don’t think he was as effective in possession as he usually is, but did everything right defensively. Shane about the goal, was a very good finish.

Neco - 8: 4 goals now and the best of the lot, what a key player he’s become.

Ampadu - 7.5: shielded the defence really well with some great recoveries and a couple of good runs forward. Played an important role in Johnson’s goal and his through ball to set up the one one one for Kieffer was brilliant. Just felt he could have got on the ball more in the first half ro help us boss the game, although did step up second half.

James - 6: some nice and tidy work, but just a little too quiet for me. Think he and Amps struggled to get on the ball first half in particular, which is why Finland had such a positive spell and were bossing the game for large chunks of the first half

Brooks - 7: excellent finish and did well to set up a couple of other chances too, although was also quite wasteful on occasion. Think he was probably another reason we failed to control the first half, as he was probably the main culprit in losing possession (although i accept that’s his game as a high risk / high reward player).

Wilson - 8: potential motm. They really struggled with him. Had a massive part to play in a couple of the goals, and was always a threat. Couldn’t believe he didn’t put that chance in when he cut in from the right as that’s his bag, would have capped a great performance. Did good defensive work too.

Johnson - 7: was lively and managed to get through a few times, although wasn’t quite timing his runs as he should and could have been more composed in front of goal. Was in the right place to score and thought his link up play was better than before.

Subs

Moore - 6: couldn’t do much with that ref.

James - 8: excellent impact, really caused havoc. Took his goal so well and made several other great runs behind

[underwood]

I don’t like to criticise refereeing performances after a defeat because it is always construed as sour grapes, however I feel fully justified in doing so after a 4-1 victory.

Last night’s referee was an incompetent idiot who made the whole game all about him.

I feel sure that if Kieffer had started he would have been yellow carded inside the first five minutes. On that subject, Moore was a little bit silly last night, did anyone else notice him throw his headband at the ref in frustration after the final whistle? He could easily have had a second yellow for it.

[pclaude]

Mar 21, 2024 21:58:34 GMT melynwy said:

Mar 21, 2024 21:54:50 GMT njdragon said:

Ffs this page hatred has to stop its mindless

Yes, that was quite silly!

If ever a game and a result justified not playing a hard/high press, that was it! A high press would have killed us before tuesday.

Tactically it was very well played tonight. Of course it was a bit nervy at 2-1 for a while, but that wasn’t a tactical issue.

It was 2-1 for 3 minutes. 

[morg]

Mar 22, 2024 8:24:32 GMT iot said:

Ward - 6: wasn’t really tested and not at fault for the goal. Came out strongly to claim some crosses and his distribution was fine apart from one poor pass that put us in trouble

Roberts - 7: agree with another poster, his best game in a while. Was good defensively and decent in possession

Mepham - 5: the weak link last night. Did some good things with a couple of good balls downs the channels that led to some opportunities, but almost cost us early on with the intercepted pass, and was mainly at fault for their goal

Rodon - 6: was largely solid, although didn’t cover himself in glory for their goal either. That’s not the first time he and Meps have got in each other’s way and gone for the same player, leaving another free. The goal was easily avoidable - they need to work on their understanding. Thought he did well in the opposition box, which isn’t usually the case!

Davies - 6.5: felt he wasn’t quite at it last night. I don’t think he was as effective in possession as he usually is, but did everything right defensively. Shane about the goal, was a very good finish.

Neco - 8: 4 goals now and the best of the lot, what a key player he’s become.

Ampadu - 7.5: shielded the defence really well with some great recoveries and a couple of good runs forward. Played an important role in Johnson’s goal and his through ball to set up the one one one for Kieffer was brilliant. Just felt he could have got on the ball more in the first half ro help us boss the game, although did step up second half.

James - 6: some nice and tidy work, but just a little too quiet for me. Think he and Amps struggled to get on the ball first half in particular, which is why Finland had such a positive spell and were bossing the game for large chunks of the first half

Brooks - 7: excellent finish and did well to set up a couple of other chances too, although was also quite wasteful on occasion. Think he was probably another reason we failed to control the first half, as he was probably the main culprit in losing possession (although i accept that’s his game as a high risk / high reward player).

Wilson - 8: potential motm. They really struggled with him. Had a massive part to play in a couple of the goals, and was always a threat. Couldn’t believe he didn’t put that chance in when he cut in from the right as that’s his bag, would have capped a great performance. Did good defensive work too.

Johnson - 7: was lively and managed to get through a few times, although wasn’t quite timing his runs as he should and could have been more composed in front of goal. Was in the right place to score and thought his link up play was better than before.

Subs

Moore - 6: couldn’t do much with that ref.

James - 8: excellent impact, really caused havoc. Took his goal so well and made several other great runs behind

Agree with all of that. Possibly a bit harsh on Davies as he still felt like a pretty reassuring presence to me.

Agree re Mepham. In addition, he always seemed to be the one in the back 3 with acres of space in front of him. Kept thinking what a great shame it is what happened to Lockyer as I think he could have been very effective for us in that role.

[allezlesrouges]

Ward (6) - Not much to report. A dodgy pass was balanced out by some decent composure with crosses and his feet. Although it makes me nervous when he gets pressed

Mepham (6) - Not his best night and definitely the weakest point of the defence last night, but he has had less game time than the others. I also remember him covering across really well on a few occasions so it wasn't all bad

Rodon (7) - Thought he had a decent game, but the moments that let him down were the mix up with Mepham and when he inexplicably ran away from a pass back that was a fine pass, and led to a shaky moment

Davies (7) - By his high standards not the best performance but was still steady. Uncharacteristically mis-placed a few passes, but also showed plenty of moments of quality too

Connor (8) - Best he's played in a while. My only gripes were letting his man have the space to cross in the box a few times, and timing his back post run into the box too early - could have had a goal if he'd held off his runs. But all round his energy up and down was great, and he definitely enables Neco down the other flank. Good tracking back and good to see him play well again in a red shirt

Neco (9) - Thought he was brilliant and a contender for MOTM. So important to the way we attack and that goal was a thing of beauty. Really mature performance and need him on top form against Poland

Ampadu (9 MOTM) - I'm not sure he'll be too many people's MOTM, but I think he was top drawer yesterday. Those type of performances often go under the radar, but I think he was the glue that held everything together. I get that people saying we were passive in the first half, but we still held our shape very well & when we did get the ball he brought it forwards with real quality. 2nd half he dominated the middle of the park and linked attack and defence well, finding the right tempo for us

JJ (7) - A little less "all-action" than previous performances, but still a good performance, especially considering his age and given it's his 9th cap. Think he also improved as the game went on and showed a bit more quality later on in the match. Him & Ampadu's partnership is necessary for us

Wilson (8.5) - Has that Premier League quality now and I can't envisage him dropping down to the Championship as James/Brooks/Moore have needed to. I think he's progressed beyond that now, and for that reason I think he's a nailed starter for us now, one of the main men. If he finished that chance he maybe sneaks MOTM

Brooks (7) - His finish is getting over-looked because of the other goals we scored. He made an easily miss-able finish look simple. The Fins spurned a similar chance up the other end shortly after. Aside from that not a lot came off for him, but he seemed to be a hair's width away from pulling off some great moves, and if they came off he'd be in the MOTM convo. The combination of him & Wilson gives us cutting edge in the final third

Brennan (7) - Some people will use this as an example of things not quite clicking for him, but he's still got a goal and won the free kick for Neco's goal. So if that's him not clicking it bodes well. Let's not forget he's only 22, and playing a different role to his club. Once he hits 25-26 years old with 50 caps I think we'll see the best of him and he will be a step above Wilson/DJ/Brooks when he gets there. For now, I'm just pleased to see him contribute to the goals, keep building those caps and his confidence

[pclaude]

Mar 22, 2024 0:43:43 GMT iot said:

A 10/10 result and 7/10 performance for me. I thought we were uncharacteristically very clinical and did really well on that front. Some of the counterattacking play was good and I was pleased with the second half performance. Like others have said, felt we stepped off far too much after going ahead, were too impatient, lacklustre in the press, and not tight enough defensively on occasion, so plenty of room for improvement. We’ll probably need a Croatia style 9/10 performance to beat the Poles

Probably worth remembering that Poland can be hit and miss too. In qualifying they lost and drew with Moldova.

My sense is that they arent what they were when we played them 18 months ago.

Not to say I am confident, just I think home advantage makes us slight favourites. 

[iot]

Mar 22, 2024 8:33:27 GMT underwood said:

I don’t like to criticise refereeing performances after a defeat because it is always construed as sour grapes, however I feel fully justified in doing so after a 4-1 victory.

Last night’s referee was an incompetent idiot who made the whole game all about him.

I feel sure that if Kieffer had started he would have been yellow carded inside the first five minutes. On that subject, Moore was a little bit silly last night, did anyone else notice him throw his headband at the ref in frustration after the final whistle? He could easily have had a second yellow for it.

Yeah, not the worst ref I've seen, but was pretty poor for both sides - I don't think we deserved the free kick for Neco's goal for instance.

Ref is going to have a massive part to play on the game on Tuesday given Poland's underhanded tactics last time out. Could make the difference

[cogancoronation31]

Absolutely agree that Neco, Ampadu and Wilson were our best players last night. Thought JJ came into his own in the second half, after a quiet first 45 mins. Agree too that Connor seemed to be back on his game at last. Brennan and Brooksie both did very well, although neither played perfectly. Defence a bit nervy-looking at times.

[cogancoronation31]

Do we know who the Ref is going to be on Tuesday night?

[iot]

Mar 22, 2024 9:50:55 GMT allezlesrouges said:

Ward (6) - Not much to report. A dodgy pass was balanced out by some decent composure with crosses and his feet. Although it makes me nervous when he gets pressed

Mepham (6) - Not his best night and definitely the weakest point of the defence last night, but he has had less game time than the others. I also remember him covering across really well on a few occasions so it wasn't all bad

Rodon (7) - Thought he had a decent game, but the moments that let him down were the mix up with Mepham and when he inexplicably ran away from a pass back that was a fine pass, and led to a shaky moment

Davies (7) - By his high standards not the best performance but was still steady. Uncharacteristically mis-placed a few passes, but also showed plenty of moments of quality too

Connor (8) - Best he's played in a while. My only gripes were letting his man have the space to cross in the box a few times, and timing his back post run into the box too early - could have had a goal if he'd held off his runs. But all round his energy up and down was great, and he definitely enables Neco down the other flank. Good tracking back and good to see him play well again in a red shirt

Neco (9) - Thought he was brilliant and a contender for MOTM. So important to the way we attack and that goal was a thing of beauty. Really mature performance and need him on top form against Poland

Ampadu (9 MOTM) - I'm not sure he'll be too many people's MOTM, but I think he was top drawer yesterday. Those type of performances often go under the radar, but I think he was the glue that held everything together. I get that people saying we were passive in the first half, but we still held our shape very well & when we did get the ball he brought it forwards with real quality. 2nd half he dominated the middle of the park and linked attack and defence well, finding the right tempo for us

JJ (7) - A little less "all-action" than previous performances, but still a good performance, especially considering his age and given it's his 9th cap. Think he also improved as the game went on and showed a bit more quality later on in the match. Him & Ampadu's partnership is necessary for us

Wilson (8.5) - Has that Premier League quality now and I can't envisage him dropping down to the Championship as James/Brooks/Moore have needed to. I think he's progressed beyond that now, and for that reason I think he's a nailed starter for us now, one of the main men. If he finished that chance he maybe sneaks MOTM

Brooks (7) - His finish is getting over-looked because of the other goals we scored. He made an easily miss-able finish look simple. The Fins spurned a similar chance up the other end shortly after. Aside from that not a lot came off for him, but he seemed to be a hair's width away from pulling off some great moves, and if they came off he'd be in the MOTM convo. The combination of him & Wilson gives us cutting edge in the final third

Brennan (7) - Some people will use this as an example of things not quite clicking for him, but he's still got a goal and won the free kick for Neco's goal. So if that's him not clicking it bodes well. Let's not forget he's only 22, and playing a different role to his club. Once he hits 25-26 years old with 50 caps I think we'll see the best of him and he will be a step above Wilson/DJ/Brooks when he gets there. For now, I'm just pleased to see him contribute to the goals, keep building those caps and his confidence

Agree with most, good to see other's take on it. For me, I just feel the midfield duo of Amps and James are being hyped slightly more than deserved. We ended the game with 41% possession, first half I suspect it would have been a fair bit lower. That may have been partly by design, if so I'm not a fan! I just think those two in midfield could have done much more for 30-40 mins in the first half after we went ahead to keep us in control and ticking over, like Allen would often do in his heyday.

Saw Ampadu's key stats on twitter (see below). Some great defensive output and good creativity, but 55 touches / 47 passes is much lower than what top midfielders would usually get. Can't find the equivalent for JJ, but suspect they would be a fair bit lower again. For comparison, I did a quick search on twitter for Declan Rice (plays the same position) and the first tweet I could find was his numbers against Everton earlier in the season, where he had 99 touches. It may seem trivial, but I think that's the difference between what Ampadu's currently doing and what top midfielders do. He and James need to show for the ball much more and dictate things, thereby allowing us to boss games. We're not seeing that yet. 

Ethan Ampadu v Finland



~3 chances created

~47 passes (91%)

~55 touches

~1 big chance created

~4 passes into final third

~7 ball recoveries

~2 tackles

~2 aerial duels (100%)

~3/6 ground duels won

[winsumluzsum]

Mar 22, 2024 8:24:32 GMT iot said:

Ward - 6: wasn’t really tested and not at fault for the goal. Came out strongly to claim some crosses and his distribution was fine apart from one poor pass that put us in trouble

Roberts - 7: agree with another poster, his best game in a while. Was good defensively and decent in possession

Mepham - 5: the weak link last night. Did some good things with a couple of good balls downs the channels that led to some opportunities, but almost cost us early on with the intercepted pass, and was mainly at fault for their goal

Rodon - 6: was largely solid, although didn’t cover himself in glory for their goal either. That’s not the first time he and Meps have got in each other’s way and gone for the same player, leaving another free. The goal was easily avoidable - they need to work on their understanding. Thought he did well in the opposition box, which isn’t usually the case!

Davies - 6.5: felt he wasn’t quite at it last night. I don’t think he was as effective in possession as he usually is, but did everything right defensively. Shane about the goal, was a very good finish.

Neco - 8: 4 goals now and the best of the lot, what a key player he’s become.

Ampadu - 7.5: shielded the defence really well with some great recoveries and a couple of good runs forward. Played an important role in Johnson’s goal and his through ball to set up the one one one for Kieffer was brilliant. Just felt he could have got on the ball more in the first half ro help us boss the game, although did step up second half.

James - 6: some nice and tidy work, but just a little too quiet for me. Think he and Amps struggled to get on the ball first half in particular, which is why Finland had such a positive spell and were bossing the game for large chunks of the first half

Brooks - 7: excellent finish and did well to set up a couple of other chances too, although was also quite wasteful on occasion. Think he was probably another reason we failed to control the first half, as he was probably the main culprit in losing possession (although i accept that’s his game as a high risk / high reward player).

Wilson - 8: potential motm. They really struggled with him. Had a massive part to play in a couple of the goals, and was always a threat. Couldn’t believe he didn’t put that chance in when he cut in from the right as that’s his bag, would have capped a great performance. Did good defensive work too.

Johnson - 7: was lively and managed to get through a few times, although wasn’t quite timing his runs as he should and could have been more composed in front of goal. Was in the right place to score and thought his link up play was better than before.

Subs

Moore - 6: couldn’t do much with that ref.

James - 8: excellent impact, really caused havoc. Took his goal so well and made several other great runs behind

Agree with most of that. I think you're a bit harsh on Rodon (I would give him a 7), I'm not sure he was at fault for the goal. Mepham's starting position was very poor, and he spurned the chance to throw himself in front of Pukki's shot.

I would give Johnson a 6. He could hardly miss for the goal and was lucky to win the free kick for Neco's goal. His failure to score in the first half when clean through (he was offside anyway) illustrated his game. He cut a frustrated figure. However, his performance was an improvement on recent ones. I would start with Moore and James on Tuesday.

[melynwy]

Mar 22, 2024 10:17:36 GMT iot said:

Mar 22, 2024 9:50:55 GMT allezlesrouges said:

For comparison, I did a quick search on twitter for Declan Rice (plays the same position) and the first tweet I could find was his numbers against Everton earlier in the season, where he had 99 touches. It may seem trivial, but I think that's the difference between what Ampadu's currently doing and what top midfielders do. 

I think that's very unfair, and you're taking wrong conclusions from the stats. We seemed to be deliberately letting Finland have possession - with that approach it's inevitable that they'll have fewer touches. Rice does not play for that kind of team.

If we played a successful high-press against a team and looked to dominate possession, then our midfielders would probably be pushing a 100 touches too.

In fact, if a sunday league team played a successful high press and dominated possession, their midfielders would also probably see a 100 touches. 

On the other hand, a lot of teams and players have been very good and successful without seeing a lot of the ball or having a lot touches. It's just a different style of play.

[winsumluzsum]

Mar 22, 2024 10:17:36 GMT iot said:

Mar 22, 2024 9:50:55 GMT allezlesrouges said:

Ward (6) - Not much to report. A dodgy pass was balanced out by some decent composure with crosses and his feet. Although it makes me nervous when he gets pressed

Mepham (6) - Not his best night and definitely the weakest point of the defence last night, but he has had less game time than the others. I also remember him covering across really well on a few occasions so it wasn't all bad

Rodon (7) - Thought he had a decent game, but the moments that let him down were the mix up with Mepham and when he inexplicably ran away from a pass back that was a fine pass, and led to a shaky moment

Davies (7) - By his high standards not the best performance but was still steady. Uncharacteristically mis-placed a few passes, but also showed plenty of moments of quality too

Connor (8) - Best he's played in a while. My only gripes were letting his man have the space to cross in the box a few times, and timing his back post run into the box too early - could have had a goal if he'd held off his runs. But all round his energy up and down was great, and he definitely enables Neco down the other flank. Good tracking back and good to see him play well again in a red shirt

Neco (9) - Thought he was brilliant and a contender for MOTM. So important to the way we attack and that goal was a thing of beauty. Really mature performance and need him on top form against Poland

Ampadu (9 MOTM) - I'm not sure he'll be too many people's MOTM, but I think he was top drawer yesterday. Those type of performances often go under the radar, but I think he was the glue that held everything together. I get that people saying we were passive in the first half, but we still held our shape very well & when we did get the ball he brought it forwards with real quality. 2nd half he dominated the middle of the park and linked attack and defence well, finding the right tempo for us

JJ (7) - A little less "all-action" than previous performances, but still a good performance, especially considering his age and given it's his 9th cap. Think he also improved as the game went on and showed a bit more quality later on in the match. Him & Ampadu's partnership is necessary for us

Wilson (8.5) - Has that Premier League quality now and I can't envisage him dropping down to the Championship as James/Brooks/Moore have needed to. I think he's progressed beyond that now, and for that reason I think he's a nailed starter for us now, one of the main men. If he finished that chance he maybe sneaks MOTM

Brooks (7) - His finish is getting over-looked because of the other goals we scored. He made an easily miss-able finish look simple. The Fins spurned a similar chance up the other end shortly after. Aside from that not a lot came off for him, but he seemed to be a hair's width away from pulling off some great moves, and if they came off he'd be in the MOTM convo. The combination of him & Wilson gives us cutting edge in the final third

Brennan (7) - Some people will use this as an example of things not quite clicking for him, but he's still got a goal and won the free kick for Neco's goal. So if that's him not clicking it bodes well. Let's not forget he's only 22, and playing a different role to his club. Once he hits 25-26 years old with 50 caps I think we'll see the best of him and he will be a step above Wilson/DJ/Brooks when he gets there. For now, I'm just pleased to see him contribute to the goals, keep building those caps and his confidence

Agree with most, good to see other's take on it. For me, I just feel the midfield duo of Amps and James are being hyped slightly more than deserved. We ended the game with 41% possession, first half I suspect it would have been a fair bit lower. That may have been partly by design, if so I'm not a fan! I just think those two in midfield could have done much more for 30-40 mins in the first half after we went ahead to keep us in control and ticking over, like Allen would often do in his heyday.

Saw Ampadu's key stats on twitter (see below). Some great defensive output and good creativity, but 55 touches / 47 passes is much lower than what top midfielders would usually get. Can't find the equivalent for JJ, but suspect they would be a fair bit lower again. For comparison, I did a quick search on twitter for Declan Rice (plays the same position) and the first tweet I could find was his numbers against Everton earlier in the season, where he had 99 touches. It may seem trivial, but I think that's the difference between what Ampadu's currently doing and what top midfielders do. He and James need to show for the ball much more and dictate things, thereby allowing us to boss games. We're not seeing that yet. 

Ethan Ampadu v Finland



~3 chances created

~47 passes (91%)

~55 touches

~1 big chance created

~4 passes into final third

~7 ball recoveries

~2 tackles

~2 aerial duels (100%)

~3/6 ground duels won

I would agree with that, although I would add that the front 3 put so little pressure on the Finns in possession (especially for their goal) that Ampadu and JJ were inevitably going to be on the back foot out of possession.

Ampadu is excellent defensively but is still a bit lacking in possession. If he improves in that area he goes from bring a lower-mid Premier League player to a top 6 one.

[winsumluzsum]

Mar 22, 2024 10:29:23 GMT melynwy said:

Mar 22, 2024 10:17:36 GMT iot said:

For comparison, I did a quick search on twitter for Declan Rice (plays the same position) and the first tweet I could find was his numbers against Everton earlier in the season, where he had 99 touches. It may seem trivial, but I think that's the difference between what Ampadu's currently doing and what top midfielders do. 

I think that's very unfair, and you're taking wrong conclusions from the stats. We seemed to be deliberately letting Finland have possession - with that approach it's inevitable that they'll have fewer touches. Rice does not play for that kind of team.

If we played a successful high-press against a team and looked to dominate possession, then our midfielders would probably be pushing a 100 touches too.

In fact, if a sunday league team played a successful high press and dominated possession, their midfielders would also probably see a 100 touches. 

On the other hand, a lot of teams and players have been very good and successful without seeing a lot of the ball or having a lot touches. It's just a different style of play.

You make valid points. Your suggestion that Page may have intentionally given Finland easy possession may have some merit - the thinking presumably being that by drawing them out we would then have the space to counter into. If that was the plan then it nearly backfired. Not surprising as Finland have decent attacking quality but are suspect defensively.

I would like to have seen a high press against the Finns dodgy defence, but any sort of press (as we saw second half) would have sufficed. Page got a lot of things right last night, especially our set piece attack, but he needs to learn to react quicker, not wait until half time, before tweaking things, when the plan isn't working.

[morg]

Mar 22, 2024 9:58:23 GMT pclaude said:

Mar 22, 2024 0:43:43 GMT iot said:

A 10/10 result and 7/10 performance for me. I thought we were uncharacteristically very clinical and did really well on that front. Some of the counterattacking play was good and I was pleased with the second half performance. Like others have said, felt we stepped off far too much after going ahead, were too impatient, lacklustre in the press, and not tight enough defensively on occasion, so plenty of room for improvement. We’ll probably need a Croatia style 9/10 performance to beat the Poles

Probably worth remembering that Poland can be hit and miss too. In qualifying they lost and drew with Moldova.

My sense is that they arent what they were when we played them 18 months ago.

Not to say I am confident, just I think home advantage makes us slight favourites. 

Agreed re Poland. Team we can now put out is a big improvement on the one that lost 1-0 in Cardiff in terms of personnel and match fitness
and if memory serves we created a fair few chances in that game. Estonia were down to 10 men after 27 minutes last night so presumably a factor in the result.

Respect but no fear. We'd have been well pleased with a one off home game v Poland to reach the finals, so every reason to be optimistic.

[winsumluzsum]

For the home game we had 13 shots on goal, 3 on target, to Poland's 6, 3 on target. We were also without a few of our first teamers. In the away game, which we were also unlucky to lose, we only fielded4 first team players. There's nothing to fear (other than Lewandowski) about Poland. I would say that with home advantage the game is roughly 50-50.

[athenempadu]

Mar 22, 2024 10:17:36 GMT iot said:

Saw Ampadu's key stats on twitter (see below). Some great defensive output and good creativity, but 55 touches / 47 passes is much lower than what top midfielders would usually get. Can't find the equivalent for JJ, but suspect they would be a fair bit lower again. For comparison, I did a quick search on twitter for Declan Rice (plays the same position) and the first tweet I could find was his numbers against Everton earlier in the season, where he had 99 touches. It may seem trivial, but I think that's the difference between what Ampadu's currently doing and what top midfielders do. He and James need to show for the ball much more and dictate things, thereby allowing us to boss games. We're not seeing that yet. 

Ethan Ampadu v Finland

~3 chances created

~47 passes (91%)

~55 touches

~1 big chance created

~4 passes into final third

~7 ball recoveries

~2 tackles

~2 aerial duels (100%)

~3/6 ground duels won

Ampadu has way more touches when he plays for Leeds, so it's either down to the other players, or the team tactics/coaching.

If you are interested in stats, download the FotMob app or something similar.

[allezlesrouges]

Can see us pressing higher on Tuesday. I don't think Poland have much of a threat in behind with Lewandowski ageing now. Sitting back and letting them play would be a mistake imo

[davekent]

Hi all

I have a campaign ticket(Canton row L right behind the goal.

I'm unable to make the match so looking sell at face value as long as it goes to a good home!

Reply/message me if interested.

Cheers

[iot]

Mar 22, 2024 10:29:23 GMT melynwy said:

Mar 22, 2024 10:17:36 GMT iot said:

For comparison, I did a quick search on twitter for Declan Rice (plays the same position) and the first tweet I could find was his numbers against Everton earlier in the season, where he had 99 touches. It may seem trivial, but I think that's the difference between what Ampadu's currently doing and what top midfielders do. 

I think that's very unfair, and you're taking wrong conclusions from the stats. We seemed to be deliberately letting Finland have possession - with that approach it's inevitable that they'll have fewer touches. Rice does not play for that kind of team.

If we played a successful high-press against a team and looked to dominate possession, then our midfielders would probably be pushing a 100 touches too.

In fact, if a sunday league team played a successful high press and dominated possession, their midfielders would also probably see a 100 touches. 

On the other hand, a lot of teams and players have been very good and successful without seeing a lot of the ball or having a lot touches. It's just a different style of play.

You make a fair point, but I'm making a broader point and referring to what Ampadu's producing generally for club and country. I must have watched him play a 100+ times for club and country, a decent portion of those in midfield, I can only think of a couple of games where he's constantly got on the ball and dictated things (that 4-1 win against the Irish probably the best Welsh example). And let's not forget he plays for a very possession-orientated side in Leeds. He's very comfortable on the ball at CB, but I'm not sure his quite got that Joe Allen-esque quality in his locker in midfield yet.

[jbt95]

Mar 22, 2024 10:55:59 GMT winsumluzsum said:

For the home game we had 13 shots on goal, 3 on target, to Poland's 6, 3 on target. We were also without a few of our first teamers. In the away game, which we were also unlucky to lose, we only fielded4 first team players. There's nothing to fear (other than Lewandowski) about Poland. I would say that with home advantage the game is roughly 50-50.

The Latvian referee we had for that game was awful too.

[iot]

Mar 22, 2024 10:26:02 GMT winsumluzsum said:

Mar 22, 2024 8:24:32 GMT iot said:

Ward - 6: wasn’t really tested and not at fault for the goal. Came out strongly to claim some crosses and his distribution was fine apart from one poor pass that put us in trouble

Roberts - 7: agree with another poster, his best game in a while. Was good defensively and decent in possession

Mepham - 5: the weak link last night. Did some good things with a couple of good balls downs the channels that led to some opportunities, but almost cost us early on with the intercepted pass, and was mainly at fault for their goal

Rodon - 6: was largely solid, although didn’t cover himself in glory for their goal either. That’s not the first time he and Meps have got in each other’s way and gone for the same player, leaving another free. The goal was easily avoidable - they need to work on their understanding. Thought he did well in the opposition box, which isn’t usually the case!

Davies - 6.5: felt he wasn’t quite at it last night. I don’t think he was as effective in possession as he usually is, but did everything right defensively. Shane about the goal, was a very good finish.

Neco - 8: 4 goals now and the best of the lot, what a key player he’s become.

Ampadu - 7.5: shielded the defence really well with some great recoveries and a couple of good runs forward. Played an important role in Johnson’s goal and his through ball to set up the one one one for Kieffer was brilliant. Just felt he could have got on the ball more in the first half ro help us boss the game, although did step up second half.

James - 6: some nice and tidy work, but just a little too quiet for me. Think he and Amps struggled to get on the ball first half in particular, which is why Finland had such a positive spell and were bossing the game for large chunks of the first half

Brooks - 7: excellent finish and did well to set up a couple of other chances too, although was also quite wasteful on occasion. Think he was probably another reason we failed to control the first half, as he was probably the main culprit in losing possession (although i accept that’s his game as a high risk / high reward player).

Wilson - 8: potential motm. They really struggled with him. Had a massive part to play in a couple of the goals, and was always a threat. Couldn’t believe he didn’t put that chance in when he cut in from the right as that’s his bag, would have capped a great performance. Did good defensive work too.

Johnson - 7: was lively and managed to get through a few times, although wasn’t quite timing his runs as he should and could have been more composed in front of goal. Was in the right place to score and thought his link up play was better than before.

Subs

Moore - 6: couldn’t do much with that ref.

James - 8: excellent impact, really caused havoc. Took his goal so well and made several other great runs behind

Agree with most of that. I think you're a bit harsh on Rodon (I would give him a 7), I'm not sure he was at fault for the goal. Mepham's starting position was very poor, and he spurned the chance to throw himself in front of Pukki's shot.

I would give Johnson a 6. He could hardly miss for the goal and was lucky to win the free kick for Neco's goal. His failure to score in the first half when clean through (he was offside anyway) illustrated his game. He cut a frustrated figure. However, his performance was an improvement on recent ones. I would start with Moore and James on Tuesday.

I'm currently watching the game back and having seen their goal again (and all the replays), to my surprise I would actually say Rodon was more at fault. Pukki was his man, Mepham was tracking the guy that received the ball and went in hard on him, then it was Rodon who made a last split-second decision to try to intercept the pass rather than sticking with Pukki. It was interesting to see that it was Rodon who Ben Davies had a go at after the goal. 

[iot]

Mar 22, 2024 10:31:47 GMT winsumluzsum said:

Mar 22, 2024 10:17:36 GMT iot said:

Agree with most, good to see other's take on it. For me, I just feel the midfield duo of Amps and James are being hyped slightly more than deserved. We ended the game with 41% possession, first half I suspect it would have been a fair bit lower. That may have been partly by design, if so I'm not a fan! I just think those two in midfield could have done much more for 30-40 mins in the first half after we went ahead to keep us in control and ticking over, like Allen would often do in his heyday.

Saw Ampadu's key stats on twitter (see below). Some great defensive output and good creativity, but 55 touches / 47 passes is much lower than what top midfielders would usually get. Can't find the equivalent for JJ, but suspect they would be a fair bit lower again. For comparison, I did a quick search on twitter for Declan Rice (plays the same position) and the first tweet I could find was his numbers against Everton earlier in the season, where he had 99 touches. It may seem trivial, but I think that's the difference between what Ampadu's currently doing and what top midfielders do. He and James need to show for the ball much more and dictate things, thereby allowing us to boss games. We're not seeing that yet. 

Ethan Ampadu v Finland



~3 chances created

~47 passes (91%)

~55 touches

~1 big chance created

~4 passes into final third

~7 ball recoveries

~2 tackles

~2 aerial duels (100%)

~3/6 ground duels won

I would agree with that, although I would add that the front 3 put so little pressure on the Finns in possession (especially for their goal) that Ampadu and JJ were inevitably going to be on the back foot out of possession.

Ampadu is excellent defensively but is still a bit lacking in possession. If he improves in that area he goes from bring a lower-mid Premier League player to a top 6 one.

100%

[pclaude]

Mar 22, 2024 0:39:31 GMT erasedcitizen said:

Mar 21, 2024 23:15:09 GMT mrpicton79 said:

Yeah there's plenty of people on the other side of that one. If you followed things properly you'd know that.

But as others have said there's probably a more appropriate thread where we can get into heavy political stuff.

As I said, brilliant result for Iceland.

Very interesting that they'll now play their final at a neutral venue also.

It's a Ukraine home name- hence neutral venue