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Post by rushy on Jun 12, 2024 18:43:38 GMT
According to the Fail, Cooper is first choice and then Matty Jones.
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Post by dai on Jun 12, 2024 18:44:27 GMT
According to the Fail, Cooper is first choice and then Matty Jones. Hope it's neither of those two. |
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Post by erasedcitizen on Jun 12, 2024 20:11:20 GMT
According to the Fail, Cooper is first choice and then Matty Jones. Hope it's neither of those two. Why wouldn't you want Cooper? If there's any chance we should jump at hiring him in my view. |
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Post by welrus on Jun 12, 2024 20:53:00 GMT
I think we are witnessing the beginning of the end rather than the end of Page. There are excuses or reasons depending on your viewpoint for some of his record. The FAW may look at these. Page can use these. The bad run leading up to the World Cup and during Nations League A could be put down to Page playing a weakened team to prioritise the Austria and Ukraine matches. In League A we came close to some good results like losing twice to Netherlands. It could be argued it worked we won the two key matches. We have turned in some very good performances. The squad in these friendlies was missing key players. What it did tell us was we have very little depth. For these reasons I can see the FAW seeing how the nations leagues matches go unfortunately before acting. Of course there is the other side with some woeful performances, especially away. And it feels very much if we are on a steep downward trajectory. I think we should dispatch Page now. For me there are two types of coaches in football. Those that during the match can see issues and opportunities and make sometimes subtle or not so subtle changes to affect the match. These coaches also typically give insightful interviews at the end of matches. The other type just expect more effort during the match - this is Page. They do little coaching from the touch line or during breaks in play - this is Page. In Pages case I’ve noticed he often just points towards the oppositions goal - the players know where the goal is! This type of manager also talk in generalities in interviews about effort, transition, disappointment etc - this is Page. I want the first type of manager. Osian would I think be ideal but I think the boat has sailed unfortunately. Fingers crossed FAW will act. Agree with your points broadly, but I think the beginning of the end was Armenia home. As disappointing as the Nations League / results were, just being a part of League A and the World Cup is a big achievement so I don't think on their own those two outcomes spelled trouble really. We started the qualification group well with 4 points, and went 1-0 up against Armenia. If we see that game out we qualify, simple as! That was the beginning of the end for me I see your point. I’m sure I’ll be in the minority here but I put the Armenia home result down as one of those football freak results that happen to every club or country occasionally. I seem to remember statistically we dominated that match. Now talk about Armenia away that did feel very bad indeed even though somehow we got a draw. We never looked like winning that and it was a prime example of Page and his team not having the nous to be able to react. Page was very much ‘out tacticed’ by the Armenian manager which illustrates the problem all too well. |
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Post by gwernybwch on Jun 12, 2024 20:59:32 GMT
Have a feeling that the FAW are just going to wait for the noise to blow over, and keep Page in the job until at least the Nations League campaign to see how it goes. Also think there's a high probability he won't be dismissed as at all given the financial implications. Have the FAW got £600k or thereabouts to pay him out? Unlikely. The 4 year contract has to be one of the most bizarre decisions I've seen in the footballing world, especially when you see managers get sacked on a regular basis. Isn't Phil Parkinson on a rolling contract at Wrexham? Maybe the 4 year contract was conjured up as part of this 'long term plan' that Page seems to go on about, and that it's part of some process regardless of the results. God knows. If a 'well respected journalist' is to be believed whilst he was given a 4 year contract, there was a very favourable (for the FAW) termination clause in his contract. Based on that, I would expect his pay-off to be much less than two years pay. I'm guessing that if the FAW were to sack Page they would have to pay off his coaching team as well. I have a feeling that the FAW are going to wait for all this to blow over as well. |
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Post by dai on Jun 12, 2024 21:09:58 GMT
Hope it's neither of those two. Why wouldn't you want Cooper? If there's any chance we should jump at hiring him in my view. I would question the pride and passion he has for being Welsh based on his management of Johnson - such as making it difficult for him to join Welsh camps. Nothing official documented, just hearsay. |
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Post by dai on Jun 12, 2024 21:19:51 GMT
Have a feeling that the FAW are just going to wait for the noise to blow over, and keep Page in the job until at least the Nations League campaign to see how it goes. Also think there's a high probability he won't be dismissed as at all given the financial implications. Have the FAW got £600k or thereabouts to pay him out? Unlikely. The 4 year contract has to be one of the most bizarre decisions I've seen in the footballing world, especially when you see managers get sacked on a regular basis. Isn't Phil Parkinson on a rolling contract at Wrexham? Maybe the 4 year contract was conjured up as part of this 'long term plan' that Page seems to go on about, and that it's part of some process regardless of the results. God knows. I wouldn't say the 4-year contract was a bizarre decision. Club and international football are completely different, with the latter working in two-year cycles - so a 4 year contract would be broadly equivalent to a club manager getting a 2-year contract. Pretty sure that was Giggs' length of contract too, although with a break clause if they failed to qualify in the first two years if I remember correctly - happy to be corrected on that. So yeah, they went out just a little bit further for Page after he qualified for the WC. With hindsight, that was the wrong decision. Page was still caretaker boss leading up to the WC (despite having taken us through the whole campaign), so I think all reasonable people would agree that a contract was the right decision at the time. They should have offered a similar contract to what Giggs got, I'm pretty sure Page and his team wouldn't have rejected that. Equally, I think Page was being paid an assistant manager's salary for doing the main man's job when Giggs was on gardening leave, so they may have felt compelled to go a little further once that situation was resolved. It's bizarre from an FAW perspective considering they only wanted to extend Colemans contract by 2 years following Euro 2016. Was Coleman offered 4 years after Speed?? Offering both Giggs and Page 4 year contracts is incredibly bad business imo. Giggs, a complete unknown from a managerial perspective and Page, well his poor managing record speaks for itself. I can sort of understand the Giggs contract, as he's had the most glittering career for a Welsh footballer after Bale and played for one of the greatest managers' ever. But I just cannot get around offering Page 4 years. Despite qualifying for the WC, performances were already dwindling and didn't make a good job a u21 level either. I can see why they would 'reward' him for qualifying for the WC as well, but it's just poor decision making imo. |
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Post by hooky on Jun 12, 2024 21:23:22 GMT
If they only had to pay him out 25% then as soon as they have lined up someone they believe is better they should terminate but give Rob the opportunity to resign on more favourable terms - as I don't want him humiliated but I do think its best for him as well as Wales and I do not want him to have scars from this situation for the rest of his life. Instead he can reflect on the positive times he has had and the positive effect he had at the start of his reign. The biggest tribute to him is he held it together when Wales were in a mess after Giggs was stood down. Even though we had Bale we still needed someone to steady the ship and ensure things were managed in a competent way. We know it has gone wrong over the past 2 years when his tactical weaknesses have been visible but if both side part then he can take pride and learnings from this experience, which will inform in which direction he should take his career and life All experience is useful if you properly explored and analysed  |
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Post by welrus on Jun 12, 2024 21:39:27 GMT
I wouldn't say the 4-year contract was a bizarre decision. Club and international football are completely different, with the latter working in two-year cycles - so a 4 year contract would be broadly equivalent to a club manager getting a 2-year contract. Pretty sure that was Giggs' length of contract too, although with a break clause if they failed to qualify in the first two years if I remember correctly - happy to be corrected on that. So yeah, they went out just a little bit further for Page after he qualified for the WC. With hindsight, that was the wrong decision. Page was still caretaker boss leading up to the WC (despite having taken us through the whole campaign), so I think all reasonable people would agree that a contract was the right decision at the time. They should have offered a similar contract to what Giggs got, I'm pretty sure Page and his team wouldn't have rejected that. Equally, I think Page was being paid an assistant manager's salary for doing the main man's job when Giggs was on gardening leave, so they may have felt compelled to go a little further once that situation was resolved. It's bizarre from an FAW perspective considering they only wanted to extend Colemans contract by 2 years following Euro 2016. Was Coleman offered 4 years after Speed?? Offering both Giggs and Page 4 year contracts is incredibly bad business imo. Giggs, a complete unknown from a managerial perspective and Page, well his poor managing record speaks for itself. I can sort of understand the Giggs contract, as he's had the most glittering career for a Welsh footballer after Bale and played for one of the greatest managers' ever. But I just cannot get around offering Page 4 years. Despite qualifying for the WC, performances were already dwindling and didn't make a good job a u21 level either. I can see why they would 'reward' him for qualifying for the WC as well, but it's just poor decision making imo. If it’s a straight 4 year contract for Page that is very bad business. Ex Wales managers aren’t highly sort after in the manager market. So bad in fact I find it hard to think there isn’t low cost route out - and the 4 years was partly about wanting to give a signal to players and supporters. |
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Post by aberbeeg on Jun 12, 2024 21:49:09 GMT
4 wins from last 24 says it all really 6 in 24 actually. 7 in 26 since the beginning of 2022. 16 of those against teams in the top 30 FIFA rankings. We wont have played that concentration of higher level opposition in our history. Under Coleman we played 17 games against teams in the top 30 in his entire 6 years in charge. Ok let’s go with 6 in 24. There may have been some decent teams in that 24 BUT there is also a lot of shockers too!! |
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Post by Belle Vue on Jun 13, 2024 6:31:25 GMT
Probably have to pay Page off to the sum of 300k
In regards to his back room staff all are paid on a match to match basis so are not deemed full time with the FAW
The following would fall into this bracket
Lester
Knill
Roberts
Gunter
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Post by allezlesrouges on Jun 13, 2024 8:10:52 GMT
Agree with your points broadly, but I think the beginning of the end was Armenia home. As disappointing as the Nations League / results were, just being a part of League A and the World Cup is a big achievement so I don't think on their own those two outcomes spelled trouble really. We started the qualification group well with 4 points, and went 1-0 up against Armenia. If we see that game out we qualify, simple as! That was the beginning of the end for me I see your point. I’m sure I’ll be in the minority here but I put the Armenia home result down as one of those football freak results that happen to every club or country occasionally. I seem to remember statistically we dominated that match. Now talk about Armenia away that did feel very bad indeed even though somehow we got a draw. We never looked like winning that and it was a prime example of Page and his team not having the nous to be able to react. Page was very much ‘out tacticed’ by the Armenian manager which illustrates the problem all too well. Good point. I believe the xG said we should have won that game 3-1 or something. Even though the Armenia goals were well taken we were far too open though |
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Post by smudger1 on Jun 13, 2024 10:35:35 GMT
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Post by fiveattheback on Jun 13, 2024 10:55:49 GMT
6 in 24 actually. 7 in 26 since the beginning of 2022. 16 of those against teams in the top 30 FIFA rankings. We wont have played that concentration of higher level opposition in our history. Under Coleman we played 17 games against teams in the top 30 in his entire 6 years in charge. Ok let’s go with 6 in 24. There may have been some decent teams in that 24 BUT there is also a lot of shockers too!! I think the wins are Ukraine, Finland, Croatia, Gibraltar, Latvia (x2) |
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Post by fiveattheback on Jun 13, 2024 11:03:15 GMT
4 wins from last 24 says it all really 6 in 24 actually. 7 in 26 since the beginning of 2022. 16 of those against teams in the top 30 FIFA rankings. We wont have played that concentration of higher level opposition in our history. Under Coleman we played 17 games against teams in the top 30 in his entire 6 years in charge. I wonder what the difference in win/loss rate is between the two. Wins v top 30 under Page - Austria, Ukraine, Mexico, Czechia? Coleman - Belgium (×2), Austria (x2?), Russia, Slovakia, Northern Ireland? |
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Post by iot on Jun 13, 2024 11:21:46 GMT
6 in 24 actually. 7 in 26 since the beginning of 2022. 16 of those against teams in the top 30 FIFA rankings. We wont have played that concentration of higher level opposition in our history. Under Coleman we played 17 games against teams in the top 30 in his entire 6 years in charge. I wonder what the difference in win/loss rate is between the two. Wins v top 30 under Page - Austria, Ukraine, Mexico, Czechia? Coleman - Belgium (×2), Austria (x2?), Russia, Slovakia, Northern Ireland? Would be interesting to know, but difficult to find out - unless there's a historical record of FIFA rankings. Did we beat Austria twice under him? Not sure any of the last three were top 30 when they played them? A comparison with Giggs would be interesting too (although obviously a much smaller group of games). We played 7 games against top opposition under him - Uruguay, Mexico, Spain, Denmark x2 and Croatia x2 with a record of 5 losses, 2 draws. Potentially add a Slovakian win and draw if they were top 30 at the time (though I don't think they were) |
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Post by garynysmon on Jun 13, 2024 11:46:42 GMT
The question fans and the FAW should ask themselves really is if the job was was up for grabs now, would Rob Page be a genuine contender?
Yes some fans do feel entitled and expectations are higher than they were, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t always strive to have the best person in charge. Can anyone really say, hand on heart, that he's the best man for the job or is it just a case of defending him out of not wanting to rock the boat and see a decent bloke sacked?
Settling for the hassle free option isn't what 'together stronger' is about surely? The punters deserve better than that.
We’ll never have the strongest squad but that doesn’t mean the coaching/tactics should be allowed to lag behind too. (In fact it places even more emphasis on the one factor we can control, which is the coaching, being spot on without a Gareth Bale to save our bacon).
Well coached but less talented squads have always punched above their weight.
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Post by winsumluzsum on Jun 13, 2024 11:57:00 GMT
The reaction to Page on social media is way OTT and lacking balance or perspective. However, when I think of Page continuing as Cymru manager I feel uninspired. He's done a decent job overall, better than I expected to be honest, but the key question here is "is Page the best manager realistically available to us?" I think the answer, assuming Osian wants the job, is no. We should establish Osian's availability and take things from there.
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Post by iot on Jun 13, 2024 12:40:36 GMT
The reaction to Page on social media is way OTT and lacking balance or perspective. However, when I think of Page continuing as Cymru manager I feel uninspired. He's done a decent job overall, better than I expected to be honest, but the key question here is "is Page the best manager realistically available to us?" I think the answer, assuming Osian wants the job, is no. We should establish Osian's availability and take things from there. Appointing Osian is a greater risk than a lot of fans make out because his exact role with Como is very sketchy, and beyond that he has no professional managerial experience. There's also a risk that he doesn't bring new ideas to the fold, given his lengthy prior involvement (and let's not forget our terrible form when he left the Welsh set up under Giggs in the first place). That said, we're not going to have access to a proven, tactically astute manager with a League 1 budget and so we'll need to take a risk with someone. Carrying on with Page is also a big risk, given our failure to qualify last time, the increased difficulty to qualify this time, the inconsistency in performances and the fact that fans have turned on him. So on balance, I'd probably look to make the change if Osian's interested. Cooper would be the best choice, but I don't think he'd want it. As unpopular as they would be with many, I think it would be worth exploring Bellamy and Jones too. |
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Post by fiveattheback on Jun 13, 2024 13:36:38 GMT
I wonder what the difference in win/loss rate is between the two. Wins v top 30 under Page - Austria, Ukraine, Mexico, Czechia? Coleman - Belgium (×2), Austria (x2?), Russia, Slovakia, Northern Ireland? Would be interesting to know, but difficult to find out - unless there's a historical record of FIFA rankings. Did we beat Austria twice under him? Not sure any of the last three were top 30 when they played them? A comparison with Giggs would be interesting too (although obviously a much smaller group of games). We played 7 games against top opposition under him - Uruguay, Mexico, Spain, Denmark x2 and Croatia x2 with a record of 5 losses, 2 draws. Potentially add a Slovakian win and draw if they were top 30 at the time (though I don't think they were) Friendly in Swansea & WC qualifiers. inside.fifa.com/fifa-world-ranking/men?dateId=id11475Northern Ireland were ranked in 25th, Slovakia 24th and Russia 29th. Israel were actually top 30 when we beat them 3-0. Czechia 42nd when we beat them under Page so scratch that one off. What's mad is the difference in performance from what were scratch sides agains Czechia & Mexico compared to the 2 recent fixtures |
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Post by dai on Jun 13, 2024 13:49:01 GMT
The reaction to Page on social media is way OTT and lacking balance or perspective. However, when I think of Page continuing as Cymru manager I feel uninspired. He's done a decent job overall, better than I expected to be honest, but the key question here is "is Page the best manager realistically available to us?" I think the answer, assuming Osian wants the job, is no. We should establish Osian's availability and take things from there. Like I mentioned on here. The reaction is not just based on those two games, it's the accumulated frustration over 2 or 3 years of extremely inconsistent performances, some of which have been the worst since the Gould era. So imo, I don't think the reaction is OTT. What is sad is the amount of nastiness involved, however, that is the nature of the football fan I'm afraid. |
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Post by dai on Jun 13, 2024 13:52:51 GMT
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Post by rushy on Jun 13, 2024 14:07:21 GMT
I'm tired of the ol'pals act of ex team mates making comments supporting Page, Sam Vokes has chipped in with his 2 penneth, it appears these pundits care more about their mates than the success of the Welsh team.
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Post by talyfan on Jun 13, 2024 14:11:31 GMT
Don't think they'd have any reason to be upset. One thing I'd say Page doesn't do is rock the boat. Can spin that as a positive or a negative. |
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Post by dai on Jun 13, 2024 14:39:17 GMT
Don't think they'd have any reason to be upset. One thing I'd say Page doesn't do is rock the boat. Can spin that as a positive or a negative. How do you mean? |
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Post by talyfan on Jun 13, 2024 14:48:17 GMT
Don't think they'd have any reason to be upset. One thing I'd say Page doesn't do is rock the boat. Can spin that as a positive or a negative. How do you mean? Few things with Page over the years. The way he picks players more or less picks itself. Obviously we argue a lot on here about middling EFL players who should be called up but the reality is our pool is so small he never really upsets anyone missing out. We've never had the luxury of having multiple premier league players fighting for the same spot. Obviously there are players who do miss out but a lot of these instances I feel don't happen often enough. He never singles out individual players to his credit when he can do. He's never drastic when you could argue there is remit he could be. Again either with squad selections or tactics. Quite happy to have input from senior players. Whether or not that has any influence on his decisions but he definitely values their input. |
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Post by surge on Jun 13, 2024 14:55:33 GMT
I see your point. I’m sure I’ll be in the minority here but I put the Armenia home result down as one of those football freak results that happen to every club or country occasionally. I seem to remember statistically we dominated that match. Now talk about Armenia away that did feel very bad indeed even though somehow we got a draw. We never looked like winning that and it was a prime example of Page and his team not having the nous to be able to react. Page was very much ‘out tacticed’ by the Armenian manager which illustrates the problem all too well. Good point. I believe the xG said we should have won that game 3-1 or something. Even though the Armenia goals were well taken we were far too open though But we were too open probably because we didn't really have two players to play in front of the defence. I don't know if that is a reason to defend Page (at that point he liked going full attack in games he needed to win and therefore probably would have played that openly anyway - not something I agreed with) but seems harsh to make the result the damning criticism when the alternative options on that date were so limited. I would point to Armenia away as a more significant result for why it was taken out of our hands. P.s. when thinking about alternatives options, didn't Page play Neco Williams as a DM in that friendly against France and it worked really well until the sending off? |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Jun 13, 2024 14:57:21 GMT
The reaction to Page on social media is way OTT and lacking balance or perspective. However, when I think of Page continuing as Cymru manager I feel uninspired. He's done a decent job overall, better than I expected to be honest, but the key question here is "is Page the best manager realistically available to us?" I think the answer, assuming Osian wants the job, is no. We should establish Osian's availability and take things from there. 100% this is the most accurate assessment of the situation in my opinion |
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Post by rushy on Jun 13, 2024 15:47:17 GMT
I would really like to know the opinions of the players on the current situation and if they have genuine belief in the manager going forward. The relevance of that would give everyone a clear indication of their ambitions for the Welsh team and what the future holds.
As someone has already stated the 'together stronger' mentality is not having the same impact as previously and maybe the focus is more about playing rather than winning.
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Post by conwy10 on Jun 13, 2024 16:06:32 GMT
The reaction to Page on social media is way OTT and lacking balance or perspective. However, when I think of Page continuing as Cymru manager I feel uninspired. He's done a decent job overall, better than I expected to be honest, but the key question here is "is Page the best manager realistically available to us?" I think the answer, assuming Osian wants the job, is no. We should establish Osian's availability and take things from there. Appointing Osian is a greater risk than a lot of fans make out because his exact role with Como is very sketchy, and beyond that he has no professional managerial experience. There's also a risk that he doesn't bring new ideas to the fold, given his lengthy prior involvement (and let's not forget our terrible form when he left the Welsh set up under Giggs in the first place). That said, we're not going to have access to a proven, tactically astute manager with a League 1 budget and so we'll need to take a risk with someone. Carrying on with Page is also a big risk, given our failure to qualify last time, the increased difficulty to qualify this time, the inconsistency in performances and the fact that fans have turned on him. So on balance, I'd probably look to make the change if Osian's interested. Cooper would be the best choice, but I don't think he'd want it. As unpopular as they would be with many, I think it would be worth exploring Bellamy and Jones too. To balance that out Osian has experience in an international set up at the top level and Cooper hasn't. Surely thats more relevant. Also what experience does Bellamy have? Either Osian Roberts is extremely lucky and was part of a Wales team on the rise, a Morocco team on the rise, fell into the Como role on their way to Serie A or there's more to those coincidences and he knows his stuff. The only real bad point he has is that Crystal Palace didn't work out (although I thought they played some decent stuff). I think that "hasn't been a manager" will always be a stick to beat him with. He has had success follow him around though. Even if he's just an incredibly lucky guy with the roles he chooses I think we need a little bit of luck. |
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