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Post by iot on Mar 31, 2024 20:39:08 GMT
Thanks for taking the time to go over my ridiculously long posts. I really struggle to see how you would form that view looking at things objectively. That’s what I try to do, to look at things as objectively as possible, whereas I feel others aren’t looking at things in a clear headed way at all. It’s all ‘Page bad’, no nuance, nothing can be explained by other factors (such as, you know, how good our players actually are). I try to back up the points I make with some evidence - references to different games where we’ve been tactically good etc. hence the ridiculous length on my posts (sorry) but I just think a lot of people are coming out with unoriginal (I see dozens of almost identical tweets) posts with no critical thought in sight. If you look back at my posts, you’d find lots of criticisms of the decisions he’s made and I’ve said after the Poland and Turkey games that he should be sacked if a better, attainable alternative can be found. So I think I’ve had a balanced view on it. You only think I defend him all the time because of how lopsided your outlook on the situation has become. I’m looking at the good and the bad, while you can only see the bad. I think we see things broadly the same way, and concur on sticking with Page unless a better affordable alternative can be found. Where I differ slightly is on the quality of the squad. Yes we lack the top end players which clearly matters, but the team is of more consistent quality now, with considerable more strength in depth. The Euro 2016 squad relied on the likes of Gunter, Ledley and HRK who gave their all for sure, but the current squad has stronger options in their positions in my opinion. We also had to draw on the likes of Church and Cotterrill in qualifying who are much weaker than our current squad players. In a way Page has made a rod for his own back by doing so well in quite a few games, especially Croatia and Turkiye at home. This has shown how strong a team we have which then accentuates the frustration with the performances against Armenia home and away, where Page was clearly outsmarted by his Ukrainian counterpart. I think Page is a decent manager, but needs to improve. Does he have the drive and determination to be the best version of himself, or is he content with the job he's doing? If we do a 16 v 24 comparison, I definitely would take the 16 squad simply because having those world class stars makes us capable of beating anyone. I don't think Coleman is any better than Page tbh - certainly as a tactician. Imagine having that 2016 side going into the playoff against Poland - I'd just feel so confident that Bale and Rambo would produce the goods. But you're right, we have a much deeper squad now, and much better options off the bench. If you compare our squad with the others that beat us to Euro qualification - we definitely have a weaker squad than Croatia, I know you and I differ on slightly on this but I feel Poland's squad (on paper) are a fair bit ahead of ours. Turkey's a bit more of an unknown, but the Turkish league is a very decent level (perhaps comparable with the Championship - or the top clubs at least), and they've got a few starts scattered around Europe, so I'd say they're likely on par with us at the very least. So I just find it ridiculous that fans seemed to think that qualification should have been a cert, and that it's a massive failure and all Page's fault that we've come up short by the slightest of margins |
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Post by winsumluzsum on Mar 31, 2024 20:48:55 GMT
I agree with most of that, especially the excessive blame directed towards Page. I don't really warm to Page, and it still bugs me that had he shown more flexibility in his approach we could have called on Allen off the bench against Poland, who could have got us over the line. But that frustration doesn't prevent me from acknowledging that Page has done a decent job overall.
Poland had an edge on quality but not a big one. They had an MLS player, a Bulgarian league player, two lower Serie A players, and others getting limited game time for higher profile clubs. So not that different to ourselves. But I agree that a draw over 120 minutes, in a contest which we shaded, is a creditable one against a team of Poland's quality.
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Post by erasedcitizen on Mar 31, 2024 20:49:40 GMT
Disagree with a fair bit of that but can't be faffed with the 3 paragraph response. I'm not sure this post warrants it given you've put words in my mouth. I responded to someone else talking about a golden generation but apart from that you’ve said: - the FAW need clearing out, presumably for not replacing Page with a better manager (with God knows what funds) - that we would have a ‘great’ chance of qualifying, were it not for Page That’s directly what I was responding to. You, and so many others, have an unreasonably high expectation of this group of players when you consider what they’re doing at club level, causing you to lash out at the guy in charge. The next sucker foolish enough to take the job would soon receive a similar treatment as our fans aren’t prepared to accept the actual level of quality in the squad. Not having the funds to sack Page is a failure on the FAW's part, quite obviously, yet you're here defending them. I find that a bit baffling really. I think we would have a decent chance of qualification but I likely have more faith in these players than you do. I'll admit, saying we had a 'great' chance was a bit much. I say we have 5% chance under Page, mind, where we'd probably have a 30% or so chance under a decent manager. |
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Post by iot on Mar 31, 2024 21:23:18 GMT
I responded to someone else talking about a golden generation but apart from that you’ve said: - the FAW need clearing out, presumably for not replacing Page with a better manager (with God knows what funds) - that we would have a ‘great’ chance of qualifying, were it not for Page That’s directly what I was responding to. You, and so many others, have an unreasonably high expectation of this group of players when you consider what they’re doing at club level, causing you to lash out at the guy in charge. The next sucker foolish enough to take the job would soon receive a similar treatment as our fans aren’t prepared to accept the actual level of quality in the squad. Not having the funds to sack Page is a failure on the FAW's part, quite obviously, yet you're here defending them. I find that a bit baffling really. I think we would have a decent chance of qualification but I likely have more faith in these players than you do. I'll admit, saying we had a 'great' chance was a bit much. I say we have 5% chance under Page, mind, where we'd probably have a 30% or so chance under a decent manager. 'Not having the funds to sack Page is a failure on the FAW's part, quite obviously, yet you're here defending them. I find that a bit baffling really.' Not sure I follow on this? Presumably for giving Page a 4-year contract in the first place? When that was given, it was on the back of Page having taken us into the last 16 of Euro 2020 and qualifying for the WC. The FAW were getting tonnes of shit for still not giving him a permanent contract if I remember correctly. Very few on here opposed the deal at the time, so I struggle with the belated criticisms of that decision. That said, without knowing the ins and outs of the deal, the FAW may have overlooked the need for performance-related clauses in the deal - I think that's a fair criticism. |
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Post by fireboy0610 on Mar 31, 2024 22:16:47 GMT
Not having the funds to sack Page is a failure on the FAW's part, quite obviously, yet you're here defending them. I find that a bit baffling really. I think we would have a decent chance of qualification but I likely have more faith in these players than you do. I'll admit, saying we had a 'great' chance was a bit much. I say we have 5% chance under Page, mind, where we'd probably have a 30% or so chance under a decent manager. 'Not having the funds to sack Page is a failure on the FAW's part, quite obviously, yet you're here defending them. I find that a bit baffling really.' Not sure I follow on this? Presumably for giving Page a 4-year contract in the first place? When that was given, it was on the back of Page having taken us into the last 16 of Euro 2020 and qualifying for the WC. The FAW were getting tonnes of shit for still not giving him a permanent contract if I remember correctly. Very few on here opposed the deal at the time, so I struggle with the belated criticisms of that decision. That said, without knowing the ins and outs of the deal, the FAW may have overlooked the need for performance-related clauses in the deal - I think that's a fair criticism. I think you will find most wales fans were shocked at the 4 years that page was given and they still are and have been proved correct. |
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Post by iot on Mar 31, 2024 23:29:29 GMT
'Not having the funds to sack Page is a failure on the FAW's part, quite obviously, yet you're here defending them. I find that a bit baffling really.' Not sure I follow on this? Presumably for giving Page a 4-year contract in the first place? When that was given, it was on the back of Page having taken us into the last 16 of Euro 2020 and qualifying for the WC. The FAW were getting tonnes of shit for still not giving him a permanent contract if I remember correctly. Very few on here opposed the deal at the time, so I struggle with the belated criticisms of that decision. That said, without knowing the ins and outs of the deal, the FAW may have overlooked the need for performance-related clauses in the deal - I think that's a fair criticism. I think you will find most wales fans were shocked at the 4 years that page was given and they still are and have been proved correct. Having gone back to look at his thread (pages 19-20), I can confirm that you're wrong. In the period between the new contract announcement and the World Cup, the vast majority were supportive. There's even comments where people were concerned he'd get poached by Championship clubs, and some of his main current detractors saying that 4 years was sensible because it's just two campaigns. Also found this link, suggesting Page was the 28th highest paid manager of the 32 at the world cup. financefootball.com/2022/07/04/best-paid-head-coaches-in-2022-fifa-world-cup/ |
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Post by quetzal on Apr 1, 2024 10:20:25 GMT
Would Noel Mooney have got it right? All speculation but if Noel Mooney got his wish and Wales had not won against Croatia at home and Roy Keane taken the job. Would we have beaten Finland and Poland. I don’t think so. Keane is not the man.
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Post by fireboy0610 on Apr 1, 2024 10:42:14 GMT
I think you will find most wales fans were shocked at the 4 years that page was given and they still are and have been proved correct. Having gone back to look at his thread (pages 19-20), I can confirm that you're wrong. In the period between the new contract announcement and the World Cup, the vast majority were supportive. There's even comments where people were concerned he'd get poached by Championship clubs, and some of his main current detractors saying that 4 years was sensible because it's just two campaigns. Also found this link, suggesting Page was the 28th highest paid manager of the 32 at the world cup. financefootball.com/2022/07/04/best-paid-head-coaches-in-2022-fifa-world-cup/I am not talking about this forum, I am taking about the more widespread fans, everyone I know, none post on here, aren't happy with Page. |
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Post by rushy on Apr 1, 2024 15:02:33 GMT
IF football matches are decided by how much money coaches and players earn, we should pack it all in, but they are not.
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Post by iot on Apr 1, 2024 16:06:02 GMT
Having gone back to look at his thread (pages 19-20), I can confirm that you're wrong. In the period between the new contract announcement and the World Cup, the vast majority were supportive. There's even comments where people were concerned he'd get poached by Championship clubs, and some of his main current detractors saying that 4 years was sensible because it's just two campaigns. Also found this link, suggesting Page was the 28th highest paid manager of the 32 at the world cup. financefootball.com/2022/07/04/best-paid-head-coaches-in-2022-fifa-world-cup/I am not talking about this forum, I am taking about the more widespread fans, everyone I know, none post on here, aren't happy with Page. Ha, well all I'd say is the people you know may not be entirely representative of the wider public and Welsh fans in general. I think if most people were being honest, they'd agree that Page's new deal was generally welcomed at the time. I agree that most people now want Page gone, but that's not what we were discussing. |
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Post by iot on Apr 1, 2024 16:08:12 GMT
IF football matches are decided by how much money coaches and players earn, we should pack it all in, but they are not. If you're trying to argue that finance has no bearing on success in football (and specifically how attractive a manager's job role is), then I think you're being very naiive. |
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Post by fireboy0610 on Apr 1, 2024 16:21:43 GMT
I am not talking about this forum, I am taking about the more widespread fans, everyone I know, none post on here, aren't happy with Page. Ha, well all I'd say is the people you know may not be entirely representative of the wider public and Welsh fans in general. I think if most people were being honest, they'd agree that Page's new deal was generally welcomed at the time. I agree that most people now want Page gone, but that's not what we were discussing. Most people I know were aghast when page was give 4 years, no matter what we were discussing, page is out of his depth, in fact hes drowning and he's taking us down with him, the faw won't throw us a lifebuoy ring. |
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Post by fireboy0610 on Apr 1, 2024 16:22:50 GMT
IF football matches are decided by how much money coaches and players earn, we should pack it all in, but they are not. If you're trying to argue that finance has no bearing on success in football (and specifically how attractive a manager's job role is), then I think you're being very naiive. Well finance is a big reason we have a league two manager in charge. |
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Post by Belle Vue on Apr 1, 2024 17:07:21 GMT
So in a week were goals were crucial - like every football match here are the players not considered for the senior team scoring exploits
Hedges
Taylor
Harris x 2
Harris
Harrison x 2
Collins x 3
Just a thought
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Post by rushy on Apr 1, 2024 17:51:06 GMT
IF football matches are decided by how much money coaches and players earn, we should pack it all in, but they are not. If you're trying to argue that finance has no bearing on success in football (and specifically how attractive a manager's job role is), then I think you're being very naiive. I'm not arguing anything, I'm also not coming across as someone with an arrogant attitude towards others with a different opinion to mine, even though many believe like me that the current manager has failed the players. I very much doubt our players go out on a pitch and look at their opponents thinking they will lose because they earn more money, they are motivated footballers not business people , and it's not my naivety, it's a football mentality, put your tablet down and try it. |
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Post by CrackityJones on Apr 1, 2024 18:23:39 GMT
So in a week were goals were crucial - like every football match here are the players not considered for the senior team scoring exploits Hedges Taylor Harris x 2 Harris Harrison x 2 Collins x 3 Just a thought The clocks went forward as well. Makes you think…. |
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Post by eppingblue1 on Apr 1, 2024 18:34:50 GMT
So in a week were goals were crucial - like every football match here are the players not considered for the senior team scoring exploits Hedges Taylor Harris x 2 Harris Harrison x 2 Collins x 3 Just a thought We went into the game against Poland on the back of scoring 4 against Finland. Why would he alter that even if he had the benefit hindsight. |
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Post by iot on Apr 1, 2024 18:46:26 GMT
If you're trying to argue that finance has no bearing on success in football (and specifically how attractive a manager's job role is), then I think you're being very naiive. I'm not arguing anything, I'm also not coming across as someone with an arrogant attitude towards others with a different opinion to mine, even though many believe like me that the current manager has failed the players. I very much doubt our players go out on a pitch and look at their opponents thinking they will lose because they earn more money, they are motivated footballers not business people , and it's not my naivety, it's a football mentality, put your tablet down and try it. Well yeah, you literally are arguing. You've responded to a comment about our limited finances and how that makes it difficult to bring in a better Manager to replace Page by saying football matches aren't decided by how much money coaches and players earn. It's not arrogance to point out that finances are an important factor generally, and specifically with the goal of bringing in a better replacement for Page. The rest of your post is barely relevant |
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Post by marsvolta on Apr 2, 2024 7:39:30 GMT
So in a week were goals were crucial - like every football match here are the players not considered for the senior team scoring exploits Hedges Taylor Harris x 2 Harris Harrison x 2 Collins x 3 Just a thought Page would have been absolutely slaughtered on here and on social media if he had selected even one of these players. |
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Post by bale-droed on Apr 2, 2024 8:51:51 GMT
John Toshack to take over for the Nations league and wc qualifying!!! Just when you thought you'd seen it all!!!!
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Post by pclaude on Apr 2, 2024 9:21:34 GMT
John Toshack to take over for the Nations league and wc qualifying!!! Just when you thought you'd seen it all!!!! 24 hours late |
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Post by njdragon on Apr 2, 2024 9:23:50 GMT
So in a week were goals were crucial - like every football match here are the players not considered for the senior team scoring exploits Hedges Taylor Harris x 2 Harris Harrison x 2 Collins x 3 Just a thought We went into the game against Poland on the back of scoring 4 against Finland. Why would he alter that even if he had the benefit hindsight. Because they aren't finland and have totally different qualities. If he stuck out the same side we'd all be saying he doesn't have a clue just pick the last side that won. People often critique him for NOT making changes. Plus we had a possibly unfit brooks so there's a perfectly good reason. |
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Post by dragonsoccer on Apr 2, 2024 9:38:46 GMT
So in a week were goals were crucial - like every football match here are the players not considered for the senior team scoring exploits Hedges Taylor Harris x 2 Harris Harrison x 2 Collins x 3 Just a thought as far as i know, hedges and mark harris were on standby for the last squad (in case of injuries) |
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Post by hooky on Apr 2, 2024 19:41:41 GMT
Not great seeing how incredibly well Johnson is doing over his 2 games since the Poland play off
Page knows best though taking him off after 55-60 mins when he was playing extremely well instead of Moore
Seriously very poor management - he must have seen in training too that Johnson was on fire.
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Post by winsumluzsum on Apr 2, 2024 20:32:53 GMT
Johnson started the game well but faded quite badly, so I can understand the substitution. Perhaps he should have been kept on with a change to a 4-2-3-1. Wilson faded quite badly too, with most moves breaking down with him. A bold Page would have had Johnson and Janes either side of Moore and Brooks behind.
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Post by iot on Apr 2, 2024 21:45:10 GMT
Not great seeing how incredibly well Johnson is doing over his 2 games since the Poland play off Page knows best though taking him off after 55-60 mins when he was playing extremely well instead of Moore Seriously very poor management - he must have seen in training too that Johnson was on fire. Yeah, I felt that was a poor decision too. Although watching the Spurs game tonight, Johnson was very ineffective in the second half and was clearly knackered by the last 20, so maybe he just doesn't have the fatigue? Either way, I agree with another poster who said that it was a mistake to start both him and Moore. In hindsight, we probably should have started James ahead of Moore |
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Post by njdragon on Apr 3, 2024 8:27:16 GMT
i must have been watching a different wales team i thought johnson was poor - most of our chances on that left hand side came from Neco. I thought Moore literally ran himself into the ground for the team and deserved to be kept on.
If we're honest we lost a great opportunity to win the game when Roberts went off, we need james on the wing. Perhaps we should have gone 4 at the back but it would have been a bold move considering the last time we adopted that system.
Funny old world where we're screaming at page for effectively ruining our chances with 4 at the back against Armenia but we're also screaming that he should have gone 4 at the back against Poland in another must win game.
It's all with the benefit of hindsight.
What was the official story with brooks coming off? the Medics must have deemed him fit enough to play
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Post by winsumluzsum on Apr 3, 2024 11:48:41 GMT
The problem with the Armenia game was specifically with Ramsey as a 6. Even then things would have been fine if Ramsey hadn't wandered downfield needlessly after we took the lead.
I thought Johnson had one of his better games early doors but was pretty anonymous second half.
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Post by aberbeeg on Apr 5, 2024 19:20:50 GMT
5 wins in the last 20 matches. It’s difficult to see how Page is going to improve things. I think most would agree he’s reached his ceiling. Will probably end up managing a league 1 team in future. A lot of that has been against top opposition though. England, Poland, Belgium, Netherlands, Turkey, Croatia, South Korea account for 12 of those games So still 5 wins in the last 20 yea? |
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Post by iot on Apr 5, 2024 20:18:39 GMT
A lot of that has been against top opposition though. England, Poland, Belgium, Netherlands, Turkey, Croatia, South Korea account for 12 of those games So still 5 wins in the last 20 yea? Damned lies and statistics... It depends where you want to draw the line - you could just as easily look at the last 10 which have been 4 wins, 4 draws, and 2 losses which is more than respectable |
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