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Post by gogdownsouth on Sept 23, 2020 18:43:20 GMT
I don't think it's ever going to get to a stage where there are a good number of one club supporters. I think the trick will be to embrace the fact that the majority of fans and people through the gates will have a 'bigger' team that they support, and try and avoid clashes as much as they can. Personally if the season could start a few weeks earlier so that more games don't clash with games of bigger teams would help, local games on a Friday night when there isn't as much fixture competition, or a switch to summer football providing the Cymru Leagues with a niche albeit at a massive logistical nightmare remains a possibility. For me getting rid of the failed 12 team league experiment is the first step. A 16 team, 30 game season sounds a lot more appealing to me than Cefn Druids v Cardiff Met 4 times a season, or up to 6 if they meet in the cups. Is the quality good enough for 16 teams? I wouldn’t mind more but who would be in it? Both champions didn’t have the facilities, standards have to be in place or it’ll go downhill. The bottom 2 deserved to go down, there needs to be a form of punishment for not meeting playing standards. It could be potentially be a 4th placed team in the league below going to the top league, only way I think that should be done is in a playoff system. I personally believe they are there, Prestatyn Town were very hard done by to not be promoted if rumours are to be believed and would have been a top 6 challenging side this season. Support wise there are some big teams especially up north outside of the Cymru Premier, looking at Bangor and Rhyl (even with newly formed teams) and Colwyn Bay. A 16 team league with these sides in it eventually would create a stronger league, more local and meaningful derbies if they are only playing twice a season and better crowds. |
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Post by jbt95 on Sept 24, 2020 9:03:53 GMT
Some posters on here need to behave, a lot of people are forgetting only 15-20 years ago we shared regular fixtures with Cardiff & Swansea, along with Bournemouth, Brentford & Bristol City. If Wrexham entered the Welsh system, I'd stop going. I want the dream of Manchester United or Arsenal in the cup (or even the league!), not fucking Penybont away on the weekend then Moldova on Tuesday night. It's an absolute delusion to think you'd solve Welsh football's problems by sticking Cardiff/Swans/Wrexham/Newport in the WPL, you'd just be lowering them down to the level of the current dross and the current crowds would disappear overnight. A better solution would be to allow us all back into the Welsh Cup with a Europa League slot up for grabs in lieu of FA Cup European qualification, and for Welsh system clubs to set up more robust academies that hoover up absolutely every child in their area, with the aim of selling on to English clubs for massive fees - being outside of the FA's jurisdiction, they're in a prime spot to avoid the EPPP bollocks. I don't necessarily disagree with your argument as a whole & I also agree that allowing Welsh clubs back in the Welsh Cup with the possibility of a Europa League spot (put Welsh teams into this instead of the League Cup perhaps) would actually be a better solution at present Your framing of the Penybont/Moldova argument is completely inconsistent though. You could just as easily say 'I want the dream of AC Milan or Sporting Lisbon (or even Europa League proper). Not fucking King's Lynn Town away on the weekend then Wealdstone on a Tuesday night' Again I don't disagree there may be better solutions overall but I think there are credible points being made on both sides of this. As a Cardiff fan myself, I'd personally love to see us competing to get in the Europa League group stage every year & winning league titles/cups as opposed to being a yo-yo club forever Clubs can only compete for Europe through one country's competition and I am pretty sure it has to be the league system the clubs are part of. So the Welsh clubs in the English system have to qualify through league position or by winning the FA or League Cups. It's not possible to do what was done in the 80s etc anymore, ie Swansea. Cardiff etc play in Europe by winning the Welsh Cup. Swansea when in the Europa League were drawn out with an English flag next to the club name because that is the league system in which the club plays and qualified through. The League Cup winners hereon in qualify for the play-off round for the Europa League Conference, the new third tier compeition starting next season. 5th PL place and FA Cup winners for the Europa League group stage and 1st-4th PL Champions League group stage. The Welsh clubs playing in England turned down the chance to play in the Welsh Cup again a few seasons ago. I hate the way people say give the FA Cup Winners a Champions League place. It's not possible, it's against UEFA rules. |
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Post by foxmulder on Sept 24, 2020 9:27:26 GMT
Interesting debate this.
I'll never accept using the league as a platform for the English clubs though. Not only does it cheapen the name of the league and disrespectful to the other clubs, let's be honest... people still won't go to games.
Cardiff have had less than 6000 attendance for recent cup games. Do you real think their supporters will go away to Caernarfon on a Tuesday night to watch the U23s on a Tuesday night?
It's also not a given those teams would do as well as expected. Barry just smashed the U23s in a pre-season friendly, only to get smashed ourselves in the Faroe Islands, which is where the real questions are coming from.
Personally I'd like to see Wrexham and Merthyr in the Welsh system. However I respect the post above from the Wrexham supporter above saying their dream is to get far in the English system, especially their example of imaging asking Swansea 20 years ago. The recent news of Reynolds and McElhenny potentially buying Wrexham could prove their point!
However the idea of no longer going to watch them if they joined the Welsh system, baffled me. I was supporting Barry when we were relegated to Division 3. IT SUCKED!! The football was terrible, but it was still my team. Whatever happened to supporting your club through thick and thin?
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Post by allezlesrouges on Sept 24, 2020 9:40:53 GMT
I don't necessarily disagree with your argument as a whole & I also agree that allowing Welsh clubs back in the Welsh Cup with the possibility of a Europa League spot (put Welsh teams into this instead of the League Cup perhaps) would actually be a better solution at present Your framing of the Penybont/Moldova argument is completely inconsistent though. You could just as easily say 'I want the dream of AC Milan or Sporting Lisbon (or even Europa League proper). Not fucking King's Lynn Town away on the weekend then Wealdstone on a Tuesday night' Again I don't disagree there may be better solutions overall but I think there are credible points being made on both sides of this. As a Cardiff fan myself, I'd personally love to see us competing to get in the Europa League group stage every year & winning league titles/cups as opposed to being a yo-yo club forever Clubs can only compete for Europe through one country's competition and I am pretty sure it has to be the league system the clubs are part of. So the Welsh clubs in the English system have to qualify through league position or by winning the FA or League Cups. It's not possible to do what was done in the 80s etc anymore, ie Swansea. Cardiff etc play in Europe by winning the Welsh Cup. Swansea when in the Europa League were drawn out with an English flag next to the club name because that is the league system in which the club plays and qualified through. The League Cup winners hereon in qualify for the play-off round for the Europa League Conference, the new third tier compeition starting next season. 5th PL place and FA Cup winners for the Europa League group stage and 1st-4th PL Champions League group stage. The Welsh clubs playing in England turned down the chance to play in the Welsh Cup again a few seasons ago. I hate the way people say give the FA Cup Winners a Champions League place. It's not possible, it's against UEFA rules. I didn’t realise that competition was starting next season! We really should be looking to have multiple clubs qualify for that & should really benefit us. It’s almost similar to how the Nations League is benefitting small nations by giving them regular games that they actually have a chance of winning. When is comes to club football we are a small nation in the same way. I’m optimistic that this new tournament could give us a pathway up the ladder that is a bit easier than the Europa League qualifying stages - that can end up being a lottery |
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Post by robin1864 on Sept 24, 2020 9:56:35 GMT
Clubs can only compete for Europe through one country's competition and I am pretty sure it has to be the league system the clubs are part of. So the Welsh clubs in the English system have to qualify through league position or by winning the FA or League Cups. It's not possible to do what was done in the 80s etc anymore, ie Swansea. Cardiff etc play in Europe by winning the Welsh Cup. Swansea when in the Europa League were drawn out with an English flag next to the club name because that is the league system in which the club plays and qualified through. The League Cup winners hereon in qualify for the play-off round for the Europa League Conference, the new third tier compeition starting next season. 5th PL place and FA Cup winners for the Europa League group stage and 1st-4th PL Champions League group stage. The Welsh clubs playing in England turned down the chance to play in the Welsh Cup again a few seasons ago. I hate the way people say give the FA Cup Winners a Champions League place. It's not possible, it's against UEFA rules. I didn’t realise that competition was starting next season! We really should be looking to have multiple clubs qualify for that & should really benefit us. It’s almost similar to how the Nations League is benefitting small nations by giving them regular games that they actually have a chance of winning. When is comes to club football we are a small nation in the same way. I’m optimistic that this new tournament could give us a pathway up the ladder that is a bit easier than the Europa League qualifying stages - that can end up being a lottery Or marginalise domestic Welsh football further by continually playing the likes of Latvian and Estonian clubs without the very minute chance of pulling AC Milan if they advanced past the first round. |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Sept 24, 2020 11:01:32 GMT
I didn’t realise that competition was starting next season! We really should be looking to have multiple clubs qualify for that & should really benefit us. It’s almost similar to how the Nations League is benefitting small nations by giving them regular games that they actually have a chance of winning. When is comes to club football we are a small nation in the same way. I’m optimistic that this new tournament could give us a pathway up the ladder that is a bit easier than the Europa League qualifying stages - that can end up being a lottery Or marginalise domestic Welsh football further by continually playing the likes of Latvian and Estonian clubs without the very minute chance of pulling AC Milan if they advanced past the first round. Yeah but if we continuously beat those around us we progress. Randomly pulling AC Milan or Porto once every 20 years - whilst being a great occasion - wouldn't improve our league Plus we'd still have exactly the same chance of pulling those teams cos our teams will still qualify for Champions League/Europa League in exactly the same way. It's just that now more of our teams are involved & the ones in CL/EL have this additional competition to drop down to as well Imagine TNS, Bala & Cei Connah still being involved in Europe now - that's the only difference |
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Post by jbt95 on Sept 25, 2020 7:12:09 GMT
Clubs can only compete for Europe through one country's competition and I am pretty sure it has to be the league system the clubs are part of. So the Welsh clubs in the English system have to qualify through league position or by winning the FA or League Cups. It's not possible to do what was done in the 80s etc anymore, ie Swansea. Cardiff etc play in Europe by winning the Welsh Cup. Swansea when in the Europa League were drawn out with an English flag next to the club name because that is the league system in which the club plays and qualified through. The League Cup winners hereon in qualify for the play-off round for the Europa League Conference, the new third tier compeition starting next season. 5th PL place and FA Cup winners for the Europa League group stage and 1st-4th PL Champions League group stage. The Welsh clubs playing in England turned down the chance to play in the Welsh Cup again a few seasons ago. I hate the way people say give the FA Cup Winners a Champions League place. It's not possible, it's against UEFA rules. I didn’t realise that competition was starting next season! We really should be looking to have multiple clubs qualify for that & should really benefit us. It’s almost similar to how the Nations League is benefitting small nations by giving them regular games that they actually have a chance of winning. When is comes to club football we are a small nation in the same way. I’m optimistic that this new tournament could give us a pathway up the ladder that is a bit easier than the Europa League qualifying stages - that can end up being a lottery Yes, let's hope we see at least one Welsh team in the group stage. |
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Post by conwy10 on Sept 25, 2020 17:49:35 GMT
I don't necessarily disagree with your argument as a whole & I also agree that allowing Welsh clubs back in the Welsh Cup with the possibility of a Europa League spot (put Welsh teams into this instead of the League Cup perhaps) would actually be a better solution at present Your framing of the Penybont/Moldova argument is completely inconsistent though. You could just as easily say 'I want the dream of AC Milan or Sporting Lisbon (or even Europa League proper). Not fucking King's Lynn Town away on the weekend then Wealdstone on a Tuesday night' Again I don't disagree there may be better solutions overall but I think there are credible points being made on both sides of this. As a Cardiff fan myself, I'd personally love to see us competing to get in the Europa League group stage every year & winning league titles/cups as opposed to being a yo-yo club forever Clubs can only compete for Europe through one country's competition and I am pretty sure it has to be the league system the clubs are part of. So the Welsh clubs in the English system have to qualify through league position or by winning the FA or League Cups. It's not possible to do what was done in the 80s etc anymore, ie Swansea. Cardiff etc play in Europe by winning the Welsh Cup. Swansea when in the Europa League were drawn out with an English flag next to the club name because that is the league system in which the club plays and qualified through. The League Cup winners hereon in qualify for the play-off round for the Europa League Conference, the new third tier compeition starting next season. 5th PL place and FA Cup winners for the Europa League group stage and 1st-4th PL Champions League group stage. The Welsh clubs playing in England turned down the chance to play in the Welsh Cup again a few seasons ago. I hate the way people say give the FA Cup Winners a Champions League place. It's not possible, it's against UEFA rules. I remember the English FA saying Swansea couldn’t qualify for Europe through England because they are a Welsh team, UEFA stepped in I believe. I’ll try to fish out the article. It’ll always be a grey area when teams are playing outside their country. Let’s be honest Cardiff, Swansea, Newport, Wrexham and Merthyr should really be playing in the Welsh system. I’m delighted they aren’t forced to but realistically they should. |
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Post by oscardelta on Sept 25, 2020 19:50:34 GMT
Clubs can only compete for Europe through one country's competition and I am pretty sure it has to be the league system the clubs are part of. So the Welsh clubs in the English system have to qualify through league position or by winning the FA or League Cups. It's not possible to do what was done in the 80s etc anymore, ie Swansea. Cardiff etc play in Europe by winning the Welsh Cup. Swansea when in the Europa League were drawn out with an English flag next to the club name because that is the league system in which the club plays and qualified through. The League Cup winners hereon in qualify for the play-off round for the Europa League Conference, the new third tier compeition starting next season. 5th PL place and FA Cup winners for the Europa League group stage and 1st-4th PL Champions League group stage. The Welsh clubs playing in England turned down the chance to play in the Welsh Cup again a few seasons ago. I hate the way people say give the FA Cup Winners a Champions League place. It's not possible, it's against UEFA rules. I remember the English FA saying Swansea couldn’t qualify for Europe through England because they are a Welsh team, UEFA stepped in I believe. I’ll try to fish out the article. It’ll always be a grey area when teams are playing outside their country. Let’s be honest Cardiff, Swansea, Newport, Wrexham and Merthyr should really be playing in the Welsh system. I’m delighted they aren’t forced to but realistically they should. Not sure what the problem would be though, Derry City have played in Europe before and they play in League of Ireland rather than Irish League in the North. |
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Post by derynglas on Sept 25, 2020 21:31:25 GMT
I think in 1981 when Swansea were top of the old first division
1981 it was rumoured or maybe the English fa may have said that
Swansea would not be playing in Europe if they won the league or qualified
for the uefa cup or cup winners cup.Off course they fell away and the theory
was never proved either way untill Swansea won the league cup in 2013 and played in Europe.
Its not a grey area really.On a worldwide basis a small number of clubs play in another
countries league.(Oswestry is in England off course!).
Countries have to have a league,and that league has to represent the strength of football
in that country.Dosnt mean all the clubs have to be in it but the vast majority are expected
to be in it.
Attempts to form a league of Wales pre 1992 had failed because UEFA said they would not recognise
the league with 8 clubs playing in English non league which is why the FAW had to bring
an element of compulsion to get some or all of them to join.
Celtic and Rangers have said on occasion they would like to join the English system.
The reason it wont happen is not because UEFA wouldnt alloe it,but because the English
FA dosnt want those clubs in its leagues,and the Scottish fa dosnt want to lose them
so neither would ever sanction it.It is the national associations who controll the leagues
and who plays in them.UEFA merely decides whether they recognise that league as a national league
or not and would only withdraw it if too many clubs went to play in another country which
never happens because again the national associations controll the clubs otherwise clubs
would become all powerfull.
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Post by robin1864 on Sept 25, 2020 21:49:56 GMT
I think in 1981 when Swansea were top of the old first division 1981 it was rumoured or maybe the English fa may have said that Swansea would not be playing in Europe if they won the league or qualified for the uefa cup or cup winners cup.Off course they fell away and the theory was never proved either way untill Swansea won the league cup in 2013 and played in Europe. Its not a grey area really.On a worldwide basis a small number of clubs play in another countries league.(Oswestry is in England off course!). Countries have to have a league,and that league has to represent the strength of football in that country.Dosnt mean all the clubs have to be in it but the vast majority are expected to be in it. Attempts to form a league of Wales pre 1992 had failed because UEFA said they would not recognise the league with 8 clubs playing in English non league which is why the FAW had to bring an element of compulsion to get some or all of them to join. Celtic and Rangers have said on occasion they would like to join the English system. The reason it wont happen is not because UEFA wouldnt alloe it,but because the English FA dosnt want those clubs in its leagues,and the Scottish fa dosnt want to lose them so neither would ever sanction it.It is the national associations who controll the leagues and who plays in them.UEFA merely decides whether they recognise that league as a national league or not and would only withdraw it if too many clubs went to play in another country which never happens because again the national associations controll the clubs otherwise clubs would become all powerfull. Could all be a footnote in history soon if Anderlecht, Ajax, PSV, Brugges etc. get their way and form a male Beneliga. It could generate up to €400m in deals and allow them to compete with the French and German leagues. It's far more viable than the Old Firm joining the English league, and UEFA previously gave blessing to the creation of a joint women's league. |
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Post by conwy10 on Sept 25, 2020 22:04:32 GMT
I think in 1981 when Swansea were top of the old first division 1981 it was rumoured or maybe the English fa may have said that Swansea would not be playing in Europe if they won the league or qualified for the uefa cup or cup winners cup.Off course they fell away and the theory was never proved either way untill Swansea won the league cup in 2013 and played in Europe. Its not a grey area really.On a worldwide basis a small number of clubs play in another countries league.(Oswestry is in England off course!). Countries have to have a league,and that league has to represent the strength of football in that country.Dosnt mean all the clubs have to be in it but the vast majority are expected to be in it. Attempts to form a league of Wales pre 1992 had failed because UEFA said they would not recognise the league with 8 clubs playing in English non league which is why the FAW had to bring an element of compulsion to get some or all of them to join. Celtic and Rangers have said on occasion they would like to join the English system. The reason it wont happen is not because UEFA wouldnt alloe it,but because the English FA dosnt want those clubs in its leagues,and the Scottish fa dosnt want to lose them so neither would ever sanction it.It is the national associations who controll the leagues and who plays in them.UEFA merely decides whether they recognise that league as a national league or not and would only withdraw it if too many clubs went to play in another country which never happens because again the national associations controll the clubs otherwise clubs would become all powerfull. Competing with others outside your country is what European football is for. Bayern Munich have little competition in Germany, there’s respectable efforts, but they are always a step above. Other clubs, or 2 or 3, completely dominate leagues but they’re playing in their national league. Cardiff and Swansea playing in Cymru Prem would put Wales in a similar situation to most leagues in Europe. |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Sept 25, 2020 22:18:30 GMT
I think in 1981 when Swansea were top of the old first division 1981 it was rumoured or maybe the English fa may have said that Swansea would not be playing in Europe if they won the league or qualified for the uefa cup or cup winners cup.Off course they fell away and the theory was never proved either way untill Swansea won the league cup in 2013 and played in Europe. Its not a grey area really.On a worldwide basis a small number of clubs play in another countries league.(Oswestry is in England off course!). Countries have to have a league,and that league has to represent the strength of football in that country.Dosnt mean all the clubs have to be in it but the vast majority are expected to be in it. Attempts to form a league of Wales pre 1992 had failed because UEFA said they would not recognise the league with 8 clubs playing in English non league which is why the FAW had to bring an element of compulsion to get some or all of them to join. Celtic and Rangers have said on occasion they would like to join the English system. The reason it wont happen is not because UEFA wouldnt alloe it,but because the English FA dosnt want those clubs in its leagues,and the Scottish fa dosnt want to lose them so neither would ever sanction it.It is the national associations who controll the leagues and who plays in them.UEFA merely decides whether they recognise that league as a national league or not and would only withdraw it if too many clubs went to play in another country which never happens because again the national associations controll the clubs otherwise clubs would become all powerfull. Could all be a footnote in history soon if Anderlecht, Ajax, PSV, Brugges etc. get their way and form a male Beneliga. It could generate up to €400m in deals and allow them to compete with the French and German leagues. It's far more viable than the Old Firm joining the English league, and UEFA previously gave blessing to the creation of a joint women's league. Interesting - never heard of this idea before Here's an article about the concept for anyone interested: www.google.com/amp/s/footballpink.net/beneliga-is-this-footballs-future/amp/ |
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Post by robin1864 on Sept 25, 2020 22:39:11 GMT
Could all be a footnote in history soon if Anderlecht, Ajax, PSV, Brugges etc. get their way and form a male Beneliga. It could generate up to €400m in deals and allow them to compete with the French and German leagues. It's far more viable than the Old Firm joining the English league, and UEFA previously gave blessing to the creation of a joint women's league. Interesting - never heard of this idea before Here's an article about the concept for anyone interested: www.google.com/amp/s/footballpink.net/beneliga-is-this-footballs-future/amp/It's been about as a "fan's concept" idea for 20 years or so, since Euro 2000 at least. It'd make massive sense financially and competitively, seeing as domestic football in those countries is literally propped up by about 6 clubs with a "big 3" in each country. It'd propel them from being the tallest dwarf to potential competitors with the European elite in maybe as little as a decade. They're two of the most developed nations in Europe who have awful leagues but seriously big clubs & amazing academy systems - although whether a merger & increased competition would decrease chances to field youth players remains to be seen. I think it'll happen eventually, money talks and it's too good to turn down, UEFA would privately be excited too as it'd only add to their elite competitions. |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Sept 26, 2020 8:30:07 GMT
It's been about as a "fan's concept" idea for 20 years or so, since Euro 2000 at least. It'd make massive sense financially and competitively, seeing as domestic football in those countries is literally propped up by about 6 clubs with a "big 3" in each country. It'd propel them from being the tallest dwarf to potential competitors with the European elite in maybe as little as a decade. They're two of the most developed nations in Europe who have awful leagues but seriously big clubs & amazing academy systems - although whether a merger & increased competition would decrease chances to field youth players remains to be seen. I think it'll happen eventually, money talks and it's too good to turn down, UEFA would privately be excited too as it'd only add to their elite competitions. Yeah it seemed to be that this idea could see them join the big table with England, France, Germany, Spain & Italy. They'd arguably even overtake the French league within a decade or so |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Oct 1, 2020 22:13:24 GMT
Dundalk from the Irish league have just qualified for the Europa League after knocking out Faroese side Klaksvik in the playoff round. Just goes to show it is do-able with the right luck!
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Post by oscardelta on Oct 2, 2020 11:25:17 GMT
Dundalk from the Irish league have just qualified for the Europa League after knocking out Faroese side Klaksvik in the playoff round. Just goes to show it is do-able with the right luck! In Dundalks case it is not just luck, this is second time in a number of years they have done so.
The last occasion they had Stephen Kenny managing them.
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Post by gimli on Oct 2, 2020 11:36:16 GMT
Dundalk from the Irish league have just qualified for the Europa League after knocking out Faroese side Klaksvik in the playoff round. Just goes to show it is do-able with the right luck! In Dundalks case it is not just luck, this is second time in a number of years they have done so.
The last occasion they had Stephen Kenny managing them.
I think by "luck" he means that they played Klaksvik in the last qualifier not Basel or Dinamo Zagreb or AC Milan or any of the other massive clubs they could have drawn. I don't mean to take anything away from Dundalk, but the luck of the draw is incredibly important in making it all the way to the group stage. |
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Post by cadno on Oct 2, 2020 11:38:54 GMT
Dundalk from the Irish league have just qualified for the Europa League after knocking out Faroese side Klaksvik in the playoff round. Just goes to show it is do-able with the right luck! In Dundalks case it is not just luck, this is second time in a number of years they have done so.
The last occasion they had Stephen Kenny managing them.
They are 10-14 games into the league of Ireland, this surely helps when it comes to early European games too. |
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Post by oscardelta on Oct 2, 2020 12:13:54 GMT
In Dundalks case it is not just luck, this is second time in a number of years they have done so.
The last occasion they had Stephen Kenny managing them.
They are 10-14 games into the league of Ireland, this surely helps when it comes to early European games too.
It does because they have a summer league finishing in November, this year it is truncated but down side is that pretty much every club releases every player at end of the season.
Benefit to club is circa €3 million and that excludes any payments for a win etc. Games will be played in Aviva as their ground is not to UEFA standard.
Arsenal / Rapid Vienna / Molde / Dundalk
Nice earner from this. Luck would be 4 points
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Post by allezlesrouges on Oct 2, 2020 16:27:50 GMT
In Dundalks case it is not just luck, this is second time in a number of years they have done so.
The last occasion they had Stephen Kenny managing them.
I think by "luck" he means that they played Klaksvik in the last qualifier not Basel or Dinamo Zagreb or AC Milan or any of the other massive clubs they could have drawn. I don't mean to take anything away from Dundalk, but the luck of the draw is incredibly important in making it all the way to the group stage. Yes that is what I meant - and more so that with the right luck one of our teams can qualify (we do seem to need it). Fully aware that Dundalk have qualified recently & that Shamrock Rovers also qualified |
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Post by welshowl on Oct 2, 2020 21:03:02 GMT
About a couple of weeks ago, I compared the ranking of all 55 countries in UEFA. I took the ranking of the men's national team, and the ranking of the clubs' coefficient in Euro competitions. So for example, Belgium are the top ranked country at the time, but club -wise their league is 8th. I then compared the national team's ranking vs the national league's ranking and looked to see where the biggest gap/divergence was. No guesses for thinking who had the biggest gap....
1st Wales, a divergence of 37 places (national team = 14th, league = 51st) 2nd Iceland, divergence = 26 places (24th, 50th) 3rd Northern Ireand, 21 places, (23rd, 44th) 4th Montenegro (19 places, (33rd,52nd) 5th Poland (19 places, 13th, 32nd) . 50th Scotland (-14 places, 27th, 13th)
54th Kazakhstan (-20 places, 47th, 27th)
55th Cyprus (-27 places, (national team = 41st, league = 14th)
Wales's relative gap is biggest due to the historic reason around the league make up, and possibly because we're over achieving as a national team (although don't throw things at me for that statement!, we're all happy about our ranking, or what it reflects). Many of the ones with the biggest 'positive' gap were in North western Europe or the Balkans.
In general the bigger the country, the smaller the divergence, Poland being the most obvious exception to the rule. I wonder why their league is so 'under-performing'. Would anybody of us be happy with a Scotland situation where our clubs (or 2 clubs really) did well , but the national team not?
Just seemed interesting. The answer is to improve both league and national team performance!
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Post by robin1864 on Oct 2, 2020 21:28:05 GMT
About a couple of weeks ago, I compared the ranking of all 55 countries in UEFA. I took the ranking of the men's national team, and the ranking of the clubs' coefficient in Euro competitions. So for example, Belgium are the top ranked country at the time, but club -wise their league is 8th. I then compared the national team's ranking vs the national league's ranking and looked to see where the biggest gap/divergence was. No guesses for thinking who had the biggest gap....
1st Wales, a divergence of 37 places (national team = 14th, league = 51st) 2nd Iceland, divergence = 26 places (24th, 50th) 3rd Northern Ireand, 21 places, (23rd, 44th) 4th Montenegro (19 places, (33rd,52nd) 5th Poland (19 places, 13th, 32nd) . 50th Scotland (-14 places, 27th, 13th)
54th Kazakhstan (-20 places, 47th, 27th)
55th Cyprus (-27 places, (national team = 41st, league = 14th)
Wales's relative gap is biggest due to the historic reason around the league make up, and possibly because we're over achieving as a national team (although don't throw things at me for that statement!, we're all happy about our ranking, or what it reflects). Many of the ones with the biggest 'positive' gap were in North western Europe or the Balkans.
In general the bigger the country, the smaller the divergence, Poland being the most obvious exception to the rule. I wonder why their league is so 'under-performing'. Would anybody of us be happy with a Scotland situation where our clubs (or 2 clubs really) did well , but the national team not?
Just seemed interesting. The answer is to improve both league and national team performance!
All I can take from that is our national team is massively propped up by the English league, and Scotland's league is propped up massively by the Old Firm. It's no secret the WPL was only created to stave off the FIFA wolves at the door. Take the unrealistic bollocks of "Cardiff/Wrexham/Swansea/Newport should play in the Cymru Premier" out of the debate, the league needs actual investment more than anything else, and I think the best place to invest is in stadiums, academies and coaching. Push S4C/BBC Wales to broadcast & stream more games, too, or set up a dedicated streaming service that charges a nominal subscription fee. Get parents/families watching their kids play in academies from a young age and it will eventually turn them into supporters of the club if there is a defined pathway to the first team. A success story who makes it to the Premier League will make more people take WPL clubs seriously. At the moment there's a "build it and they'll come" mentality, which is a hard sell when most WPL facilities consist of rusted sheds and the EPL can be watched live on any device. |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Oct 2, 2020 23:00:00 GMT
If academies are invested in that'd be a good start. I'd definitely like to see more Cymru Premier clubs picking up discarded Swansea/Wrexham/Cardiff/Newport youth players as I'm sure there's talent there that could go straight into senior football to get their career on track, rather than tumbling down the mire of the English system (someone like Cameron Coxe possibly in danger of this perhaps). Good to see the likes of Nat Jarvis at Barry for example - who had ended up warming the bench at Bath City before moving back over. It's also been positive to see how Cabango has benefitted from a Cymru Premier loan too, and I'd like to see loans like this being a more regular occurrence. I feel like the league can serve the national team as it has done with Cabango we just need the belief in using it
Taking Scotland as an example, you can see how having a pretty good league doesn't necessarily translate to a strong national team - there's more to it than that. I think the English league will always be the goal for our players because it will always be massively strong, but we can still utilise our national league better than we have been & I think it's actually an important step for us to be able to use this in addition to all the other brilliant things our national team set up does & has in place
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Post by welshowl on Oct 2, 2020 23:01:02 GMT
Thanks for the reply robin1864. I agree with a lot of the points you make - a success story (a few more Mark Delaney, Nigel Adkins etc) would definitely help. That the national team is propped up by the English league is correct, but one we should worry about. The stronger the domestic league is the better.
What knows what state football will be in post Covid? Glad the FAW have some money from FIFA to support clubs through the current world crisis. I am a bit surprised that the Cymru Premier is continuing without fans and the gate/club social money they bring in. Maybe it would have been different if there weren't Welsh clubs representing our country in Europe. Down the line who knows what club will have been lucky in having a supporter plough their own lottery winnings into it, or a club being taken over to make it a fly on the wall tv programme.
As I've said earlier on in this thread, it really needs the FAW and others with interest in improving the league. As we've seen in Dundalk vs Klaksvik, Irish and Faroe clubs / leagues are showing it is possible. It's not all luck. Some very decent ideas from you to those making plans for the future.
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Post by robin1864 on Oct 2, 2020 23:54:21 GMT
It'll sound like a ridiculous point to some on here, and the thought of it seems ridiculous to me too, but we cannot underestimate the level of exposure the WPL would receive if it was on a game like FIFA.
Kids today love video game streaming on youtube and the like, and a common challenge streamers like to take on is transforming a team from a backwater league into European champions. These videos get thousands of views, the level of exposure the league could receive and recognition players would get is unquantifiable.
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Post by allezlesrouges on Oct 3, 2020 10:34:48 GMT
It'll sound like a ridiculous point to some on here, and the thought of it seems ridiculous to me too, but we cannot underestimate the level of exposure the WPL would receive if it was on a game like FIFA. Kids today love video game streaming on youtube and the like, and a common challenge streamers like to take on is transforming a team from a backwater league into European champions. These videos get thousands of views, the level of exposure the league could receive and recognition players would get is unquantifiable. I do agree with this it does give good exposure cos so many people play it. It's only recently our national team has been added on there too. I play it & if the Cymru Premier was on there I'd defo be trying to win the Champions League etc. |
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Post by cadno on Oct 3, 2020 10:46:08 GMT
What are the main arguments against a summer league like they do in Ireland?
It makes a lot of sense to me, but I think a lot of people that follow the WPL week in week out are against this?
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Post by oscardelta on Oct 3, 2020 12:33:29 GMT
What are the main arguments against a summer league like they do in Ireland? It makes a lot of sense to me, but I think a lot of people that follow the WPL week in week out are against this? Tradition....
Pitches are in their best condition, kids more likely to be out playing football, people more likely to attend games because you can start games at 7pm in the light.
Instead lets play in the winter, pitches suffer from weather, school kids leagues have matches cancelled for months due to weather and kids lose interest.
Easy contrast in Ireland has been Gaelic games and Soccer at lower level, GAA always played games from March to October, it is not surprising kids playing it because always a good chance you will get to play games. Always an easy family sell to go see Jonny or Janey play when decent weather and chance to see friends while kids can run around rather than being stuck indoors.
Sport is competing with the Xbox etc, unless you compete then you have already lost.
When is last time you saw lots of kids playing football with jumpers for goalposts.
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Post by robin1864 on Oct 3, 2020 13:11:38 GMT
What are the main arguments against a summer league like they do in Ireland? It makes a lot of sense to me, but I think a lot of people that follow the WPL week in week out are against this? Like Oscardelta said, tradition. And the fact that bored Cardiff fans might pay money to watch live football - can't have that happening, it's demeaning. |
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