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Post by iot on Apr 3, 2018 12:34:53 GMT
You're putting words in my mouth cymroircarn. Dummett will need to prove his commitment at some stage - but right now flexibility is the right course of action. At least Dummett has been straight and up-front about his priorities, which is more than can be said of Giggs, when he continually pulled out of friendlies on very dubious pretexts. Williams will be 34 at the start of the Euro qualifiers, and it's by no means certain that he'll be able to command a starting place by then. Given his commanding performances over the years, and his consistent availability, that should be a scary prospect - especially combined with Collins' retirement. Who do we have to command the defence other than Williams? Chester has been great for Wales, but as a side-kick to Williams. Does he, or Davies, have the personality and physical stature to lead the defensive line? The only other experienced candidate is Gunter, who has the personality for the job but does he have the ability or stature to play consistently at centre half? Perhaps, but it's by no means certain. This is why we need to be patient with Dummett. We need him probably more than he needs us - which was very much the case with Giggs, which is why we tolerated his no-shows. Let's see if he turns up for the end-of-season friendlies, when the excuse of prioritising Newcastle no longer has currency. I take the point about maintaining team spirit, but we'd be foolish not to strike a balance between conflicting priorities. Building the strongest possible squad has to be primary objective for Giggs, and right now that includes Dummett. As cymroircarn points out, I'm not sure the comparison with Giggs stands up to scrutiny. As far as I'm aware, Giggs never pulled out before qualifiers where we were still in the running to qualify. Also, while a player of Dummet's quality would be a useful squad addition, it's a bit of a stretch to compare his importance with that of Giggs at the time. You seem to imply Dummett is a possible candidate to fill the void left by Ash if he retires / deteriorates further. While Dummett can play in the centre, he is no more a commanding, strong character than any of our other options. He's a LB than can play in the centre, are you seriously saying that he could replace Ash as our defensive leader? |
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Post by alarch on Apr 3, 2018 15:07:35 GMT
It's unlikely that Dummett would have started in the Serbia game and quite clearly his relationship with Coleman had broken down completely. The whole Together Stronger mantra clearly worked very well in the Euro campaign, but the squad has become a bit cliquey - which Dummett clearly felt outside of. That doesn't mean he's blameless - but it's the savvy thing to cut him a bit of slack - especially now that we have a new manager and the chance for a fresh start. There are plenty of club players who have done far worse things and been welcomed back with open arms (Mahrez anyone?). That doesn't mean we should be perpetually forgiving - if he continues to show lukewarm commitment then he can't expect to be picked. His comments in that article suggest to me that his commitment may strengthen once he gets a chance in a meaningful game, but I may be wrong.
The comparison with Giggs is not based on quality, obviously not, but that to be consistent you would have to argue that Giggs should have been dropped for lack of commitment. Or are your principles subject to the quality of player in question?
As for who can replace Ash - I have no idea who would fit the bill - because there are quite simply no obvious candidates. Chester and Gunter are right-sided centre backs and Davies and Dummett are left-sided ones. So there's no obvious candidate to take over. My best guess is that Davies may be moved into the centre, because of his intelligent reading of the game, but his lack of stature (5' 11" - Gunter and Chester are also the same height) and his greater usefulness elsewhere may mean that the slightly taller Dummett (6") could come into the picture. Regardless of where specifically he would play, his versatility should mean that he is would be an asset somewhere across the back line.
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Post by cymroircarn on Apr 3, 2018 17:25:45 GMT
It's unlikely that Dummett would have started in the Serbia game and quite clearly his relationship with Coleman had broken down completely. The whole Together Stronger mantra clearly worked very well in the Euro campaign, but the squad has become a bit cliquey - which Dummett clearly felt outside of. That doesn't mean he's blameless - but it's the savvy thing to cut him a bit of slack - especially now that we have a new manager and the chance for a fresh start. There are plenty of club players who have done far worse things and been welcomed back with open arms (Mahrez anyone?). That doesn't mean we should be perpetually forgiving - if he continues to show lukewarm commitment then he can't expect to be picked. His comments in that article suggest to me that his commitment may strengthen once he gets a chance in a meaningful game, but I may be wrong. The comparison with Giggs is not based on quality, obviously not, but that to be consistent you would have to argue that Giggs should have been dropped for lack of commitment. Or are your principles subject to the quality of player in question? As for who can replace Ash - I have no idea who would fit the bill - because there are quite simply no obvious candidates. Chester and Gunter are right-sided centre backs and Davies and Dummett are left-sided ones. So there's no obvious candidate to take over. My best guess is that Davies may be moved into the centre, because of his intelligent reading of the game, but his lack of stature (5' 11" - Gunter and Chester are also the same height) and his greater usefulness elsewhere may mean that the slightly taller Dummett (6") could come into the picture. Regardless of where specifically he would play, his versatility should mean that he is would be an asset somewhere across the back line. But he has been cut a bit of slack. If the rumours of a bust up with Coleman are true then surely he would be chomping at the bit to join up with the squad when called up by Giggs? Giggs being a left footer and probably and idol for a left footer himself? I don’t understand why we should cut him further slack when he has made himself unavailable for Coleman and Giggs. All I’m saying is it’s up to him to make the call when he feels he is available again, and not for Giggs to call him up again only to be rejected again and again? Surely Giggs calling him up for future squads goes against Dummetts wishes when he has already stated he has made himself unavailable? |
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Post by cymroircarn on Apr 3, 2018 18:22:16 GMT
Furthermore to the comparison with Giggs, he never made himself unavailable due to a falling out with a National manager you could argue he would have had enough opportunity to do so with Gould and follow suit with others and retire earlier under Tosh)
Also prior to Giggs retirement he never publicly stated to put Man Utd ahead of Wales. With the fortunes of both teams at the time you could again argue he could have had more reason to than Dummett.
Dummett has on both accounts.
Dummett does not want to be part of one of the most succesfull Wales squads ever, that’s his choice, but I don’t think we should go running to him all the time.
He has made his decision, it is up to him if he wants to change and put Wales at least on a par with Newcastle.
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Post by alarch on Apr 3, 2018 18:28:39 GMT
I suggest you read the Wales Online article again: www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/newcastle-united-star-chris-coleman-14478379"Dummett says Giggs has adopted 'a different approach' with him and outlined his willingness to return to the Wales fold." "Giving his take on the matter in public, Dummett maintains his decision over that Serbian squad matter had been influenced by previous events." "Under Chris Coleman I was going away knowing I wouldn't be playing," Dummett said in an interview with the Times . "You have to be professional, but it was difficult." "I'd be thinking to myself, 'When am I going to get an opportunity?' I didn't feel like I had a chance, like I was part of the squad, because I wasn't involved." "I decided to have a break from it, to concentrate on playing for Newcastle. Coleman said that provided he was manager he would never pick me for Wales again, but it's been a different approach from Ryan Giggs and we've had a conversation. "He said that I'd get opportunities to play. No manager can guarantee games and I understand that." Giggs spoke to Dummett ahead of announcing his squad for the China Cup and is likely to be back in for him next season when the Nations League and Euro 2020 qualifiers begin." Whether you want him to play for Wales again or not I think it's pretty clear that it's his intention to play for Wales again, and that Giggs is willing to be patient. However much people may dislike his current lack of commitment chances are that he'll play again for Wales. |
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Post by cymroircarn on Apr 3, 2018 18:44:10 GMT
I suggest you read the Wales Online article again: www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/newcastle-united-star-chris-coleman-14478379"Dummett says Giggs has adopted 'a different approach' with him and outlined his willingness to return to the Wales fold." "Giving his take on the matter in public, Dummett maintains his decision over that Serbian squad matter had been influenced by previous events." "Under Chris Coleman I was going away knowing I wouldn't be playing," Dummett said in an interview with the Times . "You have to be professional, but it was difficult." "I'd be thinking to myself, 'When am I going to get an opportunity?' I didn't feel like I had a chance, like I was part of the squad, because I wasn't involved." "I decided to have a break from it, to concentrate on playing for Newcastle. Coleman said that provided he was manager he would never pick me for Wales again, but it's been a different approach from Ryan Giggs and we've had a conversation. "He said that I'd get opportunities to play. No manager can guarantee games and I understand that." Giggs spoke to Dummett ahead of announcing his squad for the China Cup and is likely to be back in for him next season when the Nations League and Euro 2020 qualifiers begin." Whether you want him to play for Wales again or not I think it's pretty clear that it's his intention to play for Wales again, and that Giggs is willing to be patient. However much people may dislike his current lack of commitment chances are that he'll play again for Wales. I have only questioned his lack of commitment and quoted the very same article where Giggs said he would have had an opportunity in China but still Dummett does not go! Because of this I believe he should approach Giggs when he is available, not the other way around. I have reiterated this a number of times so not sure what you are trying to get at? Dummett is inconsistent in his statement above though. Wasn’t his argument with Coleman over him not being selected and now he says he understands he cannot be guaranteed games? Are you not surprised Coleman told him where to go if he was consistently putting Newcastle before Wales? As another poster pointed out, we don’t want to return to those days of players pulling out willy nilly. |
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Post by richierich333 on Apr 4, 2018 8:47:33 GMT
The bottom line is we can't afford to pass up the opportunity of bringing in a solid left footed defender around about his peak, who plays regularly in the premier league with impending retirements. This stubbornness is pathetic. Coleman's gone and it's for Giggs and Dummett to sort out. If he wants to play for us he should be welcomed back with open arms but he's right in that he needs to be given an opportunity and deserves it.
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Post by cymroircarn on Apr 4, 2018 12:24:18 GMT
The bottom line is we can't afford to pass up the opportunity of bringing in a solid left footed defender around about his peak, who plays regularly in the premier league with impending retirements. This stubbornness is pathetic. Coleman's gone and it's for Giggs and Dummett to sort out. If he wants to play for us he should be welcomed back with open arms but he's right in that he needs to be given an opportunity and deserves it. Whose stubbornness is pathetic? Dummetts? I don’t see any posts here from fans being stubborn, just frustrated that he has consistently rejected callups to concentrate on his club career. There was a supposed bust up with Coleman but still he did not return to the squad despite assurances of playing time from Giggs (which was one of his gripes previously). Yes it is a position we need strengthening but as he has made himself (temporarily) unavailable is asking Dummett to call us when he is ready rather than us trying to call him up every squad just to be rejected not acceptable? |
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Post by richierich333 on Apr 4, 2018 13:42:15 GMT
The bottom line is we can't afford to pass up the opportunity of bringing in a solid left footed defender around about his peak, who plays regularly in the premier league with impending retirements. This stubbornness is pathetic. Coleman's gone and it's for Giggs and Dummett to sort out. If he wants to play for us he should be welcomed back with open arms but he's right in that he needs to be given an opportunity and deserves it. Whose stubbornness is pathetic? Dummetts? I don’t see any posts here from fans being stubborn, just frustrated that he has consistently rejected callups to concentrate on his club career. There was a supposed bust up with Coleman but still he did not return to the squad despite assurances of playing time from Giggs (which was one of his gripes previously). Yes it is a position we need strengthening but as he has made himself (temporarily) unavailable is asking Dummett to call us when he is ready rather than us trying to call him up every squad just to be rejected not acceptable? Unfortunately we are not in a position where we can afford to cut ties with premier league players, on account of a fall out with a previous manager some years ago. I'm not sure I have read the last paragraph correct so i won't comment on that but I just want Giggs to arrange a one to one and hopefully we can get him involved and soon. Otherwise I accept that half assed commitment we can do without. My gripe is with people saying 'forget him' etc. when I think he could be a regular starter for us. |
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Post by welshiron on Apr 4, 2018 13:54:07 GMT
I think we should forget him which is a real shame.
Refused to turn up for Coleman then offered a way back by Giggs and threw it back in his face.
Can't ever see him giving 100% as I think he will always play worrying about injuring himself.
May also be a bad apple around the camp for all we know
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Post by cymroircarn on Apr 5, 2018 6:21:47 GMT
Whose stubbornness is pathetic? Dummetts? I don’t see any posts here from fans being stubborn, just frustrated that he has consistently rejected callups to concentrate on his club career. There was a supposed bust up with Coleman but still he did not return to the squad despite assurances of playing time from Giggs (which was one of his gripes previously). Yes it is a position we need strengthening but as he has made himself (temporarily) unavailable is asking Dummett to call us when he is ready rather than us trying to call him up every squad just to be rejected not acceptable? Unfortunately we are not in a position where we can afford to cut ties with premier league players, on account of a fall out with a previous manager some years ago. I'm not sure I have read the last paragraph correct so i won't comment on that but I just want Giggs to arrange a one to one and hopefully we can get him involved and soon. Otherwise I accept that half assed commitment we can do without. My gripe is with people saying 'forget him' etc. when I think he could be a regular starter for us. I think a player of his quality could be a regular starter as well but he needs to make himself available for that to happen. We can’t wait indefinitely. As he has made himself unavaialable I believe he should now make the call to Giggs to say he is ready. I would like to see him in the squad for the Mexico game, if not no later than the first Nations League squad otherwise it might be time to say forget him despite the qualities he may have. If he doesn’t want to join up with the squad then that is his choice but we then need to move on and look at other options. |
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Post by superunknown on Apr 5, 2018 10:54:49 GMT
Sod him. Had more than enough chances now. Good player definitely but it should be an honour to play for Wales and he clearly doesn't see it that way. Move on.
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Post by marsvolta on May 6, 2018 23:06:04 GMT
Was on Sky’s Goals on Sunday this morning
Was asked about Wales career but gave his usual stock answers, nothing new
Made a joke about not wanting to play against Uruguay after he received Twitter threats after he injured Suarez but that was about it.
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Post by cymroircarn on May 8, 2018 16:12:44 GMT
Was on Sky’s Goals on Sunday this morning Was asked about Wales career but gave his usual stock answers, nothing new Made a joke about not wanting to play against Uruguay after he received Twitter threats after he injured Suarez but that was about it. Why can’t he confirm he will commit or not commit? Is he waiting for an England call up (really?) |
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Post by cantonwelsh79 on May 8, 2018 16:55:07 GMT
Was on Sky’s Goals on Sunday this morning Was asked about Wales career but gave his usual stock answers, nothing new Made a joke about not wanting to play against Uruguay after he received Twitter threats after he injured Suarez but that was about it. Why can’t he confirm he will commit or not commit? Is he waiting for an England call up (really?) Fuck him. Most people would give their right bollock to represent their country. I know we're a small country and got to have as many options as possible but you either see yourself as Welsh or not. |
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Post by 1gwaunview on May 9, 2018 10:36:27 GMT
Why are we still discussing Dummett? He made his choice.
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Post by phillywelsh83 on May 9, 2018 15:39:36 GMT
Time to move on from him, he has moved on from us, best of luck to him, but we have to look at players who want to play for their country!
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Post by cymroircarn on May 16, 2018 14:10:46 GMT
I suggest you read the Wales Online article again: www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/newcastle-united-star-chris-coleman-14478379"Dummett says Giggs has adopted 'a different approach' with him and outlined his willingness to return to the Wales fold." "Giving his take on the matter in public, Dummett maintains his decision over that Serbian squad matter had been influenced by previous events." "Under Chris Coleman I was going away knowing I wouldn't be playing," Dummett said in an interview with the Times . "You have to be professional, but it was difficult." "I'd be thinking to myself, 'When am I going to get an opportunity?' I didn't feel like I had a chance, like I was part of the squad, because I wasn't involved." "I decided to have a break from it, to concentrate on playing for Newcastle. Coleman said that provided he was manager he would never pick me for Wales again, but it's been a different approach from Ryan Giggs and we've had a conversation. "He said that I'd get opportunities to play. No manager can guarantee games and I understand that." Giggs spoke to Dummett ahead of announcing his squad for the China Cup and is likely to be back in for him next season when the Nations League and Euro 2020 qualifiers begin." Whether you want him to play for Wales again or not I think it's pretty clear that it's his intention to play for Wales again, and that Giggs is willing to be patient. However much people may dislike his current lack of commitment chances are that he'll play again for Wales. Dummett not in squad against Mexico. With Collins retired, Chester unavailable and Williams going into his last campaign this was a great opportunity for him. If his intention is to play for Wales again I wonder when that will be. |
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Post by allezlesrouges on May 16, 2018 15:15:27 GMT
I suggest you read the Wales Online article again: www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/newcastle-united-star-chris-coleman-14478379"Dummett says Giggs has adopted 'a different approach' with him and outlined his willingness to return to the Wales fold." "Giving his take on the matter in public, Dummett maintains his decision over that Serbian squad matter had been influenced by previous events." "Under Chris Coleman I was going away knowing I wouldn't be playing," Dummett said in an interview with the Times . "You have to be professional, but it was difficult." "I'd be thinking to myself, 'When am I going to get an opportunity?' I didn't feel like I had a chance, like I was part of the squad, because I wasn't involved." "I decided to have a break from it, to concentrate on playing for Newcastle. Coleman said that provided he was manager he would never pick me for Wales again, but it's been a different approach from Ryan Giggs and we've had a conversation. "He said that I'd get opportunities to play. No manager can guarantee games and I understand that." Giggs spoke to Dummett ahead of announcing his squad for the China Cup and is likely to be back in for him next season when the Nations League and Euro 2020 qualifiers begin." Whether you want him to play for Wales again or not I think it's pretty clear that it's his intention to play for Wales again, and that Giggs is willing to be patient. However much people may dislike his current lack of commitment chances are that he'll play again for Wales. Dummett not in squad against Mexico. With Collins retired, Chester unavailable and Williams going into his last campaign this was a great opportunity for him. If his intention is to play for Wales again I wonder when that will be. Agreed. Surely if he wanted to wait until Newcastle were guaranteed to survive this season, there is nothing in the way of being called up for this squad? I think this shows he isn't that bothered about playing for us. |
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Post by iot on May 16, 2018 18:02:21 GMT
I am shocked!
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Post by richierich333 on May 17, 2018 10:50:15 GMT
''Giggs spoke to Dummett ahead of announcing his squad for the China Cup and is likely to be back in for him next season when the Nations League and Euro 2020 qualifiers begin."
What about this though? Surely nothing has happened if this is anything to go by.
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Post by fiveattheback on May 17, 2018 11:32:33 GMT
Fuck Dummett. He's made his choice, I'd rather have committed players in the squad.
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Post by manulike on May 17, 2018 12:04:31 GMT
I can imagine, on a very practical level, that the agreement with Dummett was, that he will not be called up unless absolutely necessary, in crucial qualifiers. In such a scenario, he would be extremely likely to play.
Ryan is a realist, and there is no need to be burning bridges.
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Post by cymroircarn on May 17, 2018 12:31:16 GMT
I can imagine, on a very practical level, that the agreement with Dummett was, that he will not be called up unless absolutely necessary, in crucial qualifiers. In such a scenario, he would be extremely likely to play. Ryan is a realist, and there is no need to be burning bridges. Problem is, he is an unknown quantity at international level. The recent friendlies would have been ideal to bed him in, work on partnerships etc Just because he plays in the Premier League does not mean he is automatically a high standard. Imagine this scenario you are Chris Mepham, turn up to play all around the world, build a partnership with the other players only for Dummett to decide he will play in a high profile qualifier and Giggs starts him ahead of Mepham. I would be fuming... |
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Post by manulike on May 17, 2018 12:39:26 GMT
I can imagine, on a very practical level, that the agreement with Dummett was, that he will not be called up unless absolutely necessary, in crucial qualifiers. In such a scenario, he would be extremely likely to play. Ryan is a realist, and there is no need to be burning bridges. Problem is, he is an unknown quantity at international level. The recent friendlies would have been ideal to bed him in, work on partnerships etc Just because he plays in the Premier League does not mean he is automatically a high standard. Imagine this scenario you are Chris Mepham, turn up to play all around the world, build a partnership with the other players only for Dummett to decide he will play in a high profile qualifier and Giggs starts him ahead of Mepham. I would be fuming... Point taken. Yes. I honestly thought that he had more U19 or U21 caps, but can only find one U21 cap v Andorra in 2011 (sub for last 30 minutes). Otherwise, he only had 2 sub appearances for us v Holland in 2014 (7 mins) and 2015 (25 mins). I guess that is not enough to really gel with the back line. Still, if we get to the away match in Dublin and need a draw to finish 2nd (thus avoid relegation and avoid being in pot 3 for the Euro draw) ... I can still see a scenario where we get 2 or 3 injuries and we might be grasping at straws ... |
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Post by cymroircarn on May 17, 2018 12:56:10 GMT
Problem is, he is an unknown quantity at international level. The recent friendlies would have been ideal to bed him in, work on partnerships etc Just because he plays in the Premier League does not mean he is automatically a high standard. Imagine this scenario you are Chris Mepham, turn up to play all around the world, build a partnership with the other players only for Dummett to decide he will play in a high profile qualifier and Giggs starts him ahead of Mepham. I would be fuming... Point taken. Yes. I honestly thought that he had more U19 or U21 caps, but can only find one U21 cap v Andorra in 2011 (sub for last 30 minutes). Otherwise, he only had 2 sub appearances for us v Holland in 2014 (7 mins) and 2015 (25 mins). I guess that is not enough to really gel with the back line. Still, if we get to the away match in Dublin and need a draw to finish 2nd (thus avoid relegation and avoid being in pot 3 for the Euro draw) ... I can still see a scenario where we get 2 or 3 injuries and we might be grasping at straws ... I think it’s more likely we will see Gunter score thank Dummett play for us again ;-) |
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Post by richierich333 on May 17, 2018 13:10:07 GMT
I can imagine, on a very practical level, that the agreement with Dummett was, that he will not be called up unless absolutely necessary, in crucial qualifiers. In such a scenario, he would be extremely likely to play. Ryan is a realist, and there is no need to be burning bridges. Problem is, he is an unknown quantity at international level. The recent friendlies would have been ideal to bed him in, work on partnerships etc Just because he plays in the Premier League does not mean he is automatically a high standard. Imagine this scenario you are Chris Mepham, turn up to play all around the world, build a partnership with the other players only for Dummett to decide he will play in a high profile qualifier and Giggs starts him ahead of Mepham. I would be fuming... That's fair i am going off him a bit now too |
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Post by BA Baracus on May 18, 2018 8:44:10 GMT
Problem is, he is an unknown quantity at international level. The recent friendlies would have been ideal to bed him in, work on partnerships etc Just because he plays in the Premier League does not mean he is automatically a high standard. Imagine this scenario you are Chris Mepham, turn up to play all around the world, build a partnership with the other players only for Dummett to decide he will play in a high profile qualifier and Giggs starts him ahead of Mepham. I would be fuming... That's fair i am going off him a bit now too Sounds like Dummett's got Danny Collins Syndrome. Must be something in the North East water. |
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Post by richierich333 on May 20, 2018 6:37:07 GMT
That's fair i am going off him a bit now too Sounds like Dummett's got Danny Collins Syndrome. Must be something in the North East water. Didn't tosh ask him what his name was and what position he played? |
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Post by biwmares on May 21, 2018 21:17:09 GMT
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