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Post by squatter1 on Sept 27, 2013 12:24:46 GMT
Contract not sealed and delivered it seems.
Nothing concrete in here, but there's the suggestion that if the shit run continues in the next two games, Coleman will be out...
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Post by Tim P on Sept 27, 2013 13:25:33 GMT
Contract not sealed and delivered it seems. Nothing concrete in here, but there's the suggestion that if the shit run continues in the next two games, Coleman will be out... I think it sounds like the decision has been made already, but we'll see. Would people want a good draw or even a win in Belgium if it meant Coleman keeping his job? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2013 13:59:05 GMT
Contract not sealed and delivered it seems. Nothing concrete in here, but there's the suggestion that if the shit run continues in the next two games, Coleman will be out... I think it sounds like the decision has been made already, but we'll see. Would people want a good draw or even a win in Belgium if it meant Coleman keeping his job? Meaning what? I know if I had a survey that said 91% of my most important stakeholders said I fucked up, I would devise a new strategy very, very quickly. |
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Post by squatter1 on Sept 27, 2013 15:05:32 GMT
Meant to post link to this with last post: www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/wales-boss-chris-coleman-told-6103085So two losses and Coleman goes, it seems to say. I hear what you're saying Trendy, but the optimal scenario for me is that we win the next two matches, Coleman turns it around and we qualify with him for 2016. Unlikely, but optimal. Worst case scenario is Coleman wins unconvincingly at home to Macedonia, with plucky defeat away, but not enough to get him the boot. |
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Post by Tim P on Sept 27, 2013 15:36:49 GMT
To me, it sounds like he will not get a contract and that decision has pretty much been made because they feel it is highly unlikely we'll get anything from Belgium.
Squatter - yeah, totally. I don't like Coleman but would be delighted to see us get two wins and go on to qualify. The worst case scenario is what I was talking about, it's just too depressing.
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Post by squatter1 on Sept 30, 2013 16:27:37 GMT
Reading through the Collinsgate thread reminded me of how bad a week Coleman had during the last games. Quite incredible really - have we ever seen the like, even in our often turgid history?
1. He loses his passport and misses the flight to the away game meaning he misses the last training session before the match.
2. He puts a player on the bench who is not fit enough to play any part whatsoever. This is something perhaps unique in international football.
3. He loses the match to a team ranked 75 in the world.
4. He loses home match.
5. He lies during a press conference to denigrate one of his senior pros.
6. He is called out for lying by his senior pro.
7. The contract extension which was previously 'a formality' is put on ice until Coleman can prove again he is worth it.
The worst week for a Welsh national team manager ever?
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Post by Baxter Cymru on Sept 30, 2013 16:56:45 GMT
Bale and Ramsey will play as will Bellamy!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2013 17:05:43 GMT
Joe Allen, Aaron Ramsey, Gareth Bale and Craig Bellamy should be fit? :/
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Post by Baxter Cymru on Sept 30, 2013 17:13:05 GMT
Allen is a major doubt imo he hasnt even been on the bench recently i dont think, however the other 3 will play!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2013 18:16:31 GMT
Allen is a major doubt imo he hasnt even been on the bench recently i dont think, however the other 3 will play! I think what baresi is trying to insinuate is that the players hate Coleman as much as he does and they will all stay at home, trusting the job of getting Coleman the sack to the stiffs. A good result for baresi will be if the stiffs don't even turn up and Coleman has to invite some of the tumbleweed out of the crowd (if you can call a few St Johns Ambulance workers a crowd) and Macedonia go on to beat the tumbleweed 5-0. 10-0 and he might even knock one out before bed. Mind you not that I can complain too much as I recall in the toshack days being disappointed that we lost away to Montenegro considering that it left us on our arse after the first game...but also being pleased because it made Tosh's position ultimately untenable. Since then though, I have come to realise that it's a waste of time wanting to lose so the manager gets the sack. When have the FAW ever shown any determination to follow bad with good? Look back at all the managerial appointments they have presided over and all they almost all have 2 things in common: cheap and Welsh. However they ALL have one thing in common: a complete and total lack of ambition. So seeing as to how they have never broken the bank and gone for Johnny Foreigner, why is it going to be any different now? In fact when Johnny Foreigner did turn up for the interview he was deemed too self obsessed and a Welsh rookie appointed instead whose only flair seemed to be losing matches. So instead of looking at who we would like to see as manager, instead look at who is most likely to succeed Coleman- in other words, who is cheap and Welsh at the moment? Expect to see Lisa Rogers in the dugout for the Finland game, don't say I didn't warn you. |
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Post by Baxter Cymru on Sept 30, 2013 18:18:11 GMT
But the players have voiced thier backing for Coleman to stay in the job...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2013 18:21:57 GMT
But the players have voiced thier backing for Coleman to stay in the job... Apparently they are all just saying that (which they might be, who knows?). Bale certainly seems as committed as ever though. |
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Post by squatter1 on Sept 30, 2013 19:34:24 GMT
I don't think the appointments of Toshack, Speed or Coleman were bad/conservative/misguided appointments, Storm. They were all good choices in the circumstances. And they were all Welsh, yes, which is desirable.
Going for 'Jonny Foreigner' could as easily fall on its arse, and is less desirable for the WELSH national team. And why 'break the bank' when you can stay solvent? Do you think the FAW are squirelling away money or pocketing it on the side, or are they spending the budget they have available across the spectrum of Welsh football?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2013 19:40:22 GMT
But the players have voiced thier backing for Coleman to stay in the job... What else are they going to say on record Baxter? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2013 19:41:56 GMT
Allen is a major doubt imo he hasnt even been on the bench recently i dont think, however the other 3 will play! I think what baresi is trying to insinuate is that the players hate Coleman as much as he does and they will all stay at home, trusting the job of getting Coleman the sack to the stiffs. A good result for baresi will be if the stiffs don't even turn up and Coleman has to invite some of the tumbleweed out of the crowd (if you can call a few St Johns Ambulance workers a crowd) and Macedonia go on to beat the tumbleweed 5-0. 10-0 and he might even knock one out before bed. Mind you not that I can complain too much as I recall in the toshack days being disappointed that we lost away to Montenegro considering that it left us on our arse after the first game...but also being pleased because it made Tosh's position ultimately untenable. Since then though, I have come to realise that it's a waste of time wanting to lose so the manager gets the sack. When have the FAW ever shown any determination to follow bad with good? Look back at all the managerial appointments they have presided over and all they almost all have 2 things in common: cheap and Welsh. However they ALL have one thing in common: a complete and total lack of ambition. So seeing as to how they have never broken the bank and gone for Johnny Foreigner, why is it going to be any different now? In fact when Johnny Foreigner did turn up for the interview he was deemed too self obsessed and a Welsh rookie appointed instead whose only flair seemed to be losing matches. So instead of looking at who we would like to see as manager, instead look at who is most likely to succeed Coleman- in other words, who is cheap and Welsh at the moment? Expect to see Lisa Rogers in the dugout for the Finland game, don't say I didn't warn you. That's exactly my thoughts Storm. And yes we should go with a high class foreign appointment/team. Something to inspire. |
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Post by Baxter Cymru on Sept 30, 2013 19:47:17 GMT
But the players have voiced thier backing for Coleman to stay in the job... What else are they going to say on record Baxter? Maybe stay quiet about it, they all seem to turn up for Coleman (When fit) just look at Gareth Bales commitment, where as in the past it has seemed like if the players dont like a manager they wont turn up. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2013 20:56:26 GMT
I think what baresi is trying to insinuate is that the players hate Coleman as much as he does and they will all stay at home, trusting the job of getting Coleman the sack to the stiffs. A good result for baresi will be if the stiffs don't even turn up and Coleman has to invite some of the tumbleweed out of the crowd (if you can call a few St Johns Ambulance workers a crowd) and Macedonia go on to beat the tumbleweed 5-0. 10-0 and he might even knock one out before bed. Mind you not that I can complain too much as I recall in the toshack days being disappointed that we lost away to Montenegro considering that it left us on our arse after the first game...but also being pleased because it made Tosh's position ultimately untenable. Since then though, I have come to realise that it's a waste of time wanting to lose so the manager gets the sack. When have the FAW ever shown any determination to follow bad with good? Look back at all the managerial appointments they have presided over and all they almost all have 2 things in common: cheap and Welsh. However they ALL have one thing in common: a complete and total lack of ambition. So seeing as to how they have never broken the bank and gone for Johnny Foreigner, why is it going to be any different now? In fact when Johnny Foreigner did turn up for the interview he was deemed too self obsessed and a Welsh rookie appointed instead whose only flair seemed to be losing matches. So instead of looking at who we would like to see as manager, instead look at who is most likely to succeed Coleman- in other words, who is cheap and Welsh at the moment? Expect to see Lisa Rogers in the dugout for the Finland game, don't say I didn't warn you. That's exactly my thoughts Storm. And yes we should go with a high class foreign appointment/team. Something to inspire. But history tells us that's not likely to happen. In fact looking at their record of appointments I would say that fears about Pulis are unfounded because to go for him would be too ambitious by the FAW, he has too much recent evidence of competency on his CV to be a typical FAW hireling. Really, since Yorath their record of managerial choices is piss poor and tells a grim tale of where their priorities lie. There is not much evidence of any outside of the box thinking, or any determination to improve our lot. Just always hit and hope nonsense. Rookies, dinosaurs and the plain bizarre. I don't expect it to change now, I think we are more likely to see Gould back than we are Lagerback or Hiddinck. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2013 21:13:58 GMT
I don't think the appointments of Toshack, Speed or Coleman were bad/conservative/misguided appointments, Storm. They were all good choices in the circumstances. And they were all Welsh, yes, which is desirable. Going for 'Jonny Foreigner' could as easily fall on its arse, and is less desirable for the WELSH national team. And why 'break the bank' when you can stay solvent? Do you think the FAW are squirelling away money or pocketing it on the side, or are they spending the budget they have available across the spectrum of Welsh football? Really? I can't say I agree with that. I think looking back the appointment of Speed was the time when they should have finally tried to draw a line in the sand. Mike Smith, Bobby Gould, Mark Hughes, Toshack, Flynn....all of those appointments for the most part look cheap and you can't say they were made with serious qualification in mind. It seems we had a golden opportunity with Lagerback who was passed up for a not necessarily cheap, but equally hum-drum signing in Speed. Then back to the cheap and dour appointment of Coleman... I think it would be nice to see them go for someone with a pedigree at international level for once, so we can see that they do want to do everything in their power to get us at a finals. Do they have the money? That's the question, according to rumour they had a spare million to spunk up the wall on failed campaigns to get euro 2016 with ROI, but they don't have that sort of money to entice a decent coach? Totally sums up the FAW, all they care about is scoffing from the trough while the rest goes to hell. We have had decades of this approach, it won't change with the removal of Coleman. |
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Post by squatter1 on Sept 30, 2013 22:10:46 GMT
Oh yes, I forgot Hughes: I add him to the list of good appointments the FAW have made. That makes it four on the bounce for me. Hughes/Toshack/Speed/Coleman - all good appointments under the circumstances, although I do think it's time for Coleman to go now. It's not worked for him, ce la vie.
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Post by squatter1 on Sept 30, 2013 22:19:23 GMT
The benefit of hindsight:
Hughes: the closest we've come to qualification in 20 years - to say he wasn't a good appointment is frankly daft.
Toshack: probably the most experienced Welsh football manager in history, who wouldn't have thought his appointment was a good move? Burdened with hugely transitional period, didn't always go well but oversaw needed change in approach.
Speed: Saw the team become the highest rising side in the FIFA rankings before he died. We can't presume he was the saviour, but it was going very well. Again: good appointment.
Coleman: Given the unprecedented circumstances following Speed's death, sensitivity and squad morale dictated someone come in who could emotionally manage the situation. This appointment would be easier to defend had results been different, but even though he hasn't succeeded it was a sensible appointment given the circumstances.
Four good appointments.
Now Coleman out.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2013 22:37:53 GMT
who is cheap and Welsh at the moment There's Simon Davey. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2013 22:43:03 GMT
Hughes and Speed were not good appointments on paper, they were lucky appointments. Where was the evidence that they brought anything to the table other than a famous name and convenience? You must be mad if you look at them and think they are proof of any ambition the FAW has. And according to rumour as soon as Speed started to see success the FAW became annoyed at his way of operating. Anyone else would be happy that things were going in the right direction, yet curiously the FAW were more concerned about how victory was achieved. Does this sound like a governing body who are serious about success?
Tosh. I will concede, was the popular choice and did make sense at the time...yet he soon came across as being out of touch. He was kept on far too long the FAW happy to coast along on mediocre results such as drawing at home to New Zealand, no real appetite for anything more. Its no wonder they didn't hire Lagerback, he does not fit the template for an FAW type of manager.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2013 22:45:02 GMT
who is cheap and Welsh at the moment There's Simon Davey. Fuck me, I hope the FAW aren't reading this thread. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2013 22:55:39 GMT
Fuck me, I hope the FAW aren't reading this thread. They'll be speaking to him tomorrow! |
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Post by toshfan on Sept 30, 2013 23:20:45 GMT
The benefit of hindsight: Hughes: the closest we've come to qualification in 20 years - to say he wasn't a good appointment is frankly daft. Toshack: probably the most experienced Welsh football manager in history, who wouldn't have thought his appointment was a good move? Burdened with hugely transitional period, didn't always go well but oversaw needed change in approach. Speed: Saw the team become the highest rising side in the FIFA rankings before he died. We can't presume he was the saviour, but it was going very well. Again: good appointment. Coleman: Given the unprecedented circumstances following Speed's death, sensitivity and squad morale dictated someone come in who could emotionally manage the situation. This appointment would be easier to defend had results been different, but even though he hasn't succeeded it was a sensible appointment given the circumstances. Four good appointments. Now Coleman out. I accept that the above were good appointments. My view is that such were the unique, awful and sad the circumstances were that Coleman was appointed, he needs more time. However, I have real concerns about what is happening with the u21s. It mattered to John Toshack and should matter to Chris Coleman. With regards to the other three what did they inherit and what did they leave as a legacy? Hughes: Can anyone of those who argue the case for his entire tenure make the case that he left Welsh football in great shape and planned for the future? Toshack: The most inspired and necessary appointment by the FAW in my lifetime. What he inherited was extremely worrying. Clearly a number of tough decisions were required. How we played had to change. A new squad needed to be built. We needed to be a more competitive outfit away. This man saved Welsh Football and it is the biggest football injustice I have ever known that he has not won more plaudits. As a passionate Welshman, he will forever be my hero for what achieved. I knew when we lost 2-1 away in Russia in 2008 that not only had he saved Welsh Football but given it a future. Those who failed to see things the same way as I do care to argue that he inherited a team in good shape and left something worse. Speedo: Something exciting was happening in the latter half of his period. |
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Post by toshfan on Sept 30, 2013 23:25:36 GMT
I don't think the appointments of Toshack, Speed or Coleman were bad/conservative/misguided appointments, Storm. They were all good choices in the circumstances. And they were all Welsh, yes, which is desirable. Going for 'Jonny Foreigner' could as easily fall on its arse, and is less desirable for the WELSH national team. And why 'break the bank' when you can stay solvent? Do you think the FAW are squirelling away money or pocketing it on the side, or are they spending the budget they have available across the spectrum of Welsh football? Really? I can't say I agree with that. I think looking back the appointment of Speed was the time when they should have finally tried to draw a line in the sand. Mike Smith, Bobby Gould, Mark Hughes, Toshack, Flynn....all of those appointments for the most part look cheap and you can't say they were made with serious qualification in mind. It seems we had a golden opportunity with Lagerback who was passed up for a not necessarily cheap, but equally hum-drum signing in Speed. Then back to the cheap and dour appointment of Coleman... I think it would be nice to see them go for someone with a pedigree at international level for once, so we can see that they do want to do everything in their power to get us at a finals. Do they have the money? That's the question, according to rumour they had a spare million to spunk up the wall on failed campaigns to get euro 2016 with ROI, but they don't have that sort of money to entice a decent coach? Totally sums up the FAW, all they care about is scoffing from the trough while the rest goes to hell. We have had decades of this approach, it won't change with the removal of Coleman. Does baselining not mean anything to you? To connect the word, "cheap" to Toshack and Flynn is really perplexing. Could any realistic person have had an expectation of qualifying for anything in 2004? Welsh Football was bending down on its knees in 2004 and it took someone with the finest of pedigrees to rescue the situation. Up John Toshack, Up Brian Flynn & Up Welsh Football! |
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Post by llannerch on Oct 1, 2013 12:11:32 GMT
This man saved Welsh Football and it is the biggest football injustice I have ever known that he has not won more plaudits. If we had won more competitive games under him then he would have had more plaudits. Simple. You can't cherry pick Tosh's virtues and overlook the failings |
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Post by llannerch on Oct 1, 2013 12:14:27 GMT
But the players have voiced thier backing for Coleman to stay in the job... What else are they going to say on record Baxter? come on baresi, is it that difficult for you to accept that perhaps the players do want to play for Coleman? As much as you hope that they don't it isn't that unreasonable to think he has their backing. As baxter points out the turnout has been consistently good for a while now (Collins excepted) |
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Post by squatter1 on Oct 1, 2013 13:04:58 GMT
Hughes and Speed were not good appointments on paper, they were lucky appointments. So you are saying that by definition the appointment of a manager to his first job cannot be a good appointment, only a lucky one. So it's not possible to spot a talent for management, to know someone's work and personality and to realise that first job or not, they would do a great job? So Barcelona appointing Pep Guardiola was not a good appointment. Mancini at Lazio. Martinez at Swansea. Etc. |
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Post by toshfan on Oct 1, 2013 13:17:43 GMT
This man saved Welsh Football and it is the biggest football injustice I have ever known that he has not won more plaudits. If we had won more games competitive under him then he would have had more plaudits. Simple. You can't cherry pick Tosh's virtues and overlook the failings I have never done that and not doing that now. There were certain games where we did not perform e.g. Finland home (0-2), Ireland away (0-1) etc. I also agree that he should have gone to ask Gary Speed and asked him to play as it would have made a different to results and the ultimate objective of delivering a transition. However, based on what he inherited and what he left, the man is a hero. John Toshack saved Welsh Football. |
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