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Post by llannerch on Oct 18, 2013 12:18:15 GMT
Claims that we have been defensively disorganised are not unreasonable. Our goal difference is poor in this group. However a scan of the lineups for each fixture in the campaign saw us use:
3 goalkeepers (Myhill, Price, Hennessey)
7 full backs (Gunter, Matthews, Taylor, John, Ricketts*, Davies, Richards)
8 centre backs (Collins, Williams, Davies, Blake, Gabbidon, Gunter, Wilson*, Ricketts)
*substitute appearance
Most managers - even the most experienced, defensive or both (i.e. Italians) - would admit that such instability and inconsistency in selection creates great difficulty
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2013 16:52:16 GMT
I can't believe the posts on this forum!!
We have just had a draw game against a very fired up Belgium who in my eyes were definitely not in 2nd gear, even if they were missing some of their best players they were still a much stronger side than us on paper, full of quality. We did spectacularly well to get a draw game, I was expecting 1 point out of our last 2 games but instead we've had 2 fantastic performances and 2 great results.
Would be absolutely daft to get rid of Coleman. On reflection, the only thing I disagree with was capping Harry Wilson, Lloyd Isgrove has done more to deserve a cap IMO.
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Post by saints19 on Oct 18, 2013 18:13:00 GMT
Forget about the Belgium result, impressive though that was. Look at the campaign as a whole match by match ad judge each individual match as a success or a failure on the performance, not the result. Then ask yourself if we should give Coleman a new deal just because the campaign ended with two good results.
Belgium home 0-2 - difficult to judge as Collins's sending off killed it. An adequate defensive job but the Belgians never looked in trouble. Marginal Failure.
Croatia away 0-2 - did not see it but reports suggested we had very few chances and were sloppy in the goals we conceded. Failure.
Serbia away 1-6 - do I need to say anything about this? Failure.
Scotland home 2-1 - poor defending to concede our goal. Scotland very unlucky to have a goal chalked off. Bale brilliance won us the game. On balance, neither a success or a failure in performance terms, but good result. Neither.
Scotland away 2-1 - Outplayed Scotland for first 25 mins but no end product and looked relatively unthreatening for all the pretty football,down 1-0 at HT. Gritty second-half performance won us the game. Success.
Croatia home 1-2 - Poor defending at times, but took the game to a better team and unlucky not to get anything. Bale should have scored to make it 2-0 from which we would probably have won. Success.
Macedonia away 1-2 - A close game marred by lack of organisation, lack of closing down, and strange decisions. Coleman left Bale on the bench despite Bale being fit to play a part in the later game against Serbia when we had already lost that game. Coleman also forgot his passport and managed a falling-out with Collins, never the easiest player to manage, but it should have been handled better. Failure.
Serbia home 0-3 - Very poor defensive display, Serbia never out of 2nd gear. First two goals down to fundamental errors, but players seemed demotivated and clueless and failed to close down Serbia enough. Failure.
Macedonia home 1-0 - Ropey performance, match stats suggested an equal game. Poor finishing by Macedonia, good finishing by Wales and good goalkeeping by Hennessey kept them out. Macedonia had two great chances. Neither success nor failure, though a welcome result. Neither.
Belgium away 1-1 - did not see it so can't comment on the performance, but result and radio commentary suggested an excellent effort in a difficult atmosphere. Success.
Now, and you may disagree with one or two of those, particularly the 'neithers' where in my view we played only reasonably well but still won, but that's three successful performances, two neutral ones and five failed ones. I don't honestly think you can argue much with the failures either - possibly the Macedonia away defeat which we could have drawn, but looking back on that game and how angry I was at the kamikaze defending and the failure to bring on Bale in a game we needed to win (Bale was capable of 30 mins v Serbia, so could probably have played 30 v Macedonia and then been assessed), I can't see the performance as anything other than poor.
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Post by saints19 on Oct 18, 2013 18:17:09 GMT
Personally, I was pleasantly surprised by the result in Belgium. But if (big if) we could get Pulis in, I'd still take him over Coleman any day. The campaign overall has been disappointing and our biggest problem - defensive organisation - has not been adequately addressed despite Coleman having had plenty of time. We must make every attempt to sound out quality managers that can organise the defence. Pulis & Trapattoni. If they say no, they say no. If we can't get an experienced, quality coach that can organise the team, then Coleman is better than starting from scratch with a novice. But Coleman is not going to qualify us for the Euros I suspect, and we should aim for at least a play-off next time. Would a novice do a worse or better job than Coleman? One particular novice with a notoriously short fuse has been mentioned as a possible candidate, I think he would be a huge gamble and might possibly make things worse, though it could also go the other way..... |
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Post by saints19 on Oct 18, 2013 18:21:25 GMT
Claims that we have been defensively disorganised are not unreasonable. Our goal difference is poor in this group. However a scan of the lineups for each fixture in the campaign saw us use: 3 goalkeepers (Myhill, Price, Hennessey) 7 full backs (Gunter, Matthews, Taylor, John, Ricketts*, Davies, Richards) 8 centre backs (Collins, Williams, Davies, Blake, Gabbidon, Gunter, Wilson*, Ricketts) *substitute appearance Most managers - even the most experienced, defensive or both (i.e. Italians) - would admit that such instability and inconsistency in selection creates great difficulty True enough, but most of the centre-backs used have been in a number of squads, surely? Coleman should be working with all the defenders at his disposal on defensive organisation, in case he has to use them. I mean Blake has fallen off the radar in this campaign but I'd imagine Gunter, Gabbidon, Williams, Collins and Ricketts have been at a number of squads, and Gunter and Ricketts have made multiple appearances at centre-back. It's not like Coleman has a totally new pairing every time, though I do see where you're coming from. |
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Post by toshfan on Oct 18, 2013 21:47:08 GMT
Forget about the Belgium result, impressive though that was. Look at the campaign as a whole match by match ad judge each individual match as a success or a failure on the performance, not the result. Then ask yourself if we should give Coleman a new deal just because the campaign ended with two good results. Belgium home 0-2 - difficult to judge as Collins's sending off killed it. An adequate defensive job but the Belgians never looked in trouble. Marginal Failure. Croatia away 0-2 - did not see it but reports suggested we had very few chances and were sloppy in the goals we conceded. Failure. Serbia away 1-6 - do I need to say anything about this? Failure. Scotland home 2-1 - poor defending to concede our goal. Scotland very unlucky to have a goal chalked off. Bale brilliance won us the game. On balance, neither a success or a failure in performance terms, but good result. Neither. Scotland away 2-1 - Outplayed Scotland for first 25 mins but no end product and looked relatively unthreatening for all the pretty football,down 1-0 at HT. Gritty second-half performance won us the game. Success. Croatia home 1-2 - Poor defending at times, but took the game to a better team and unlucky not to get anything. Bale should have scored to make it 2-0 from which we would probably have won. Success. Macedonia away 1-2 - A close game marred by lack of organisation, lack of closing down, and strange decisions. Coleman left Bale on the bench despite Bale being fit to play a part in the later game against Serbia when we had already lost that game. Coleman also forgot his passport and managed a falling-out with Collins, never the easiest player to manage, but it should have been handled better. Failure. Serbia home 0-3 - Very poor defensive display, Serbia never out of 2nd gear. First two goals down to fundamental errors, but players seemed demotivated and clueless and failed to close down Serbia enough. Failure. Macedonia home 1-0 - Ropey performance, match stats suggested an equal game. Poor finishing by Macedonia, good finishing by Wales and good goalkeeping by Hennessey kept them out. Macedonia had two great chances. Neither success nor failure, though a welcome result. Neither. Belgium away 1-1 - did not see it so can't comment on the performance, but result and radio commentary suggested an excellent effort in a difficult atmosphere. Success. Now, and you may disagree with one or two of those, particularly the 'neithers' where in my view we played only reasonably well but still won, but that's three successful performances, two neutral ones and five failed ones. I don't honestly think you can argue much with the failures either - possibly the Macedonia away defeat which we could have drawn, but looking back on that game and how angry I was at the kamikaze defending and the failure to bring on Bale in a game we needed to win (Bale was capable of 30 mins v Serbia, so could probably have played 30 v Macedonia and then been assessed), I can't see the performance as anything other than poor. "Forget about the Belgium result" I can't ok. I admit it. As for my ratings: Belgium home - no shame in losing to one of the best teams in the world. The sending off (referee was 100% spot on) made it harder but there was a gap in quality throughout and I do not accept that we were on par before Collins went. neitherSerbia away - agree with you. Totally unacceptable. Please please can we avoid these next time as we never do well against them Scotland home - reluctantly agree with your conclusion but the goal was correctly chalked off but for the wrong reasons. Croatia away - not a bad performance neitherScotland home - agree with you. The arrival of Joniesta and a brilliant Ramsey performance. Ever known Bellamy be so happy after a match for us? Croatia home - agree with you Macedonia away - this is the toughest one to rate. I accept the damage passport gate has done to his reputation. The performance was not awful (but accept I only so it on tv). For me the biggest selection error was not playing Vokes. neutral or failure - can't decide Serbia home - agree with you Macedonia home - well put argument but disagree that this was neutral. Bearing in mind the amount we had missing, I was hugely impressed by the structure and discipline. Not a single bad game so neutral is very harsh successBelgium away - an incredible night and performance which will live with the 1500 or so present for a long time. |
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Post by llannerch on Oct 19, 2013 10:30:26 GMT
and Gunter and Ricketts have made multiple appearances at centre-back. Er, they haven't. And certainly hadn't made many until the campaign we're talking about |
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Post by toshfan on Oct 30, 2013 11:19:42 GMT
I see that the bookies have installed Chris Coleman as favourite for the Palace job. My views about Chris Coleman are known. Welsh Football aside, I have kicked myself for not having a flutter when the odds were 20/1.
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Post by biwmares on Oct 30, 2013 14:12:41 GMT
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Post by Tim P on Oct 30, 2013 14:32:05 GMT
Standard Sport understands the Wales manager would find it hard to resist an approach." Coleman finds it difficult to resist most things. Feel like this appointment has disaster written all over it. Still, a nice payoff for him this time next year. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2013 21:05:58 GMT
If Coleman replaces Holloway, it would be equivalent of when in Premier League Burnley replaced Coyle with Laws.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2013 0:17:32 GMT
I'll be massively disappointed with Coleman if he goes. Quite pissed off.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2013 0:37:04 GMT
I'll be massively disappointed with Coleman if he goes. Quite pissed off. Cheer up. Most of us were massively disappointed when he got the job. ...just the best outcome for everyone including coleman if he goes. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2013 1:03:32 GMT
I'll be massively disappointed with Coleman if he goes. Quite pissed off. Cheer up. Most of us were massively disappointed when he got the job. ...just the best outcome for everyone including coleman if he goes. Fair enough we have a different opinion on the whole matter. Pulis or Bellamy would be a step backwards imo. Can't understand why Coleman would want to go to Palace when he can possibly get his country qualified for a major championship (more realistic than keeping Palace up/getting them back up if they go down) IMO! |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2013 10:11:21 GMT
www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/wales-boss-chris-coleman-keen-6257130So Pulis has been in talks with Palace and those talks have broken down - now he is in the frame with Giggs and Bellamy for the Wales job. Scratching Giggs as a tart, Pulis is seeing Wales as a fall back option? If that's the case then why on earth should anyone in their right mind want him? Bellamy is the one who is really passionate about this, knows the history and systems and what has happened over the previous 3 years. Surely he should get the nod with RV and OR and we can pick up where we left off after the Norway 4-1 win.
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Post by gareth on Oct 31, 2013 10:44:49 GMT
Bellamy, dutch ray and osian sounds exciting. Hopefully Bellamy's passion for playing for Wales can rub off on our team (not saying they lack it now, just the more the better)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2013 10:59:03 GMT
daily telegraph online reporting that coleman has allready been interviewed by palace!I hope this is true and he's going!IF he has been interviewed the faw should get rid of him now and let osian and bellamy take charge of the finland game!
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Post by flynnfan on Oct 31, 2013 11:42:21 GMT
Looks like Coleman has his heart set on the Palace job. Which means even if he doesn't get it, the FAW shouldn't renew his contract. Remember what happened last time a Wales manager stayed on when his heart wasn't in it any more (Sparky)? disaster.
Coleman has to go now.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2013 13:25:07 GMT
Looks like Coleman has his heart set on the Palace job. Which means even if he doesn't get it, the FAW shouldn't renew his contract. Remember what happened last time a Wales manager stayed on when his heart wasn't in it any more (Sparky)? disaster. Coleman has to go now. You seem to be wilfully forgetting the fact that Coleman has had a contract offer taken off the table and does not know if he will be in a job in a few weeks time. Put yourself in his position, if he showed loyalty to us and then the Palace vacancy is filled in a week's time then the FAW give him the boot after Finland the guy will be unemployed. Would you be happy to sit on your thumbs if your employer was debating whether to renew your contract meanwhile another job comes up that you are eligible for? Course you wouldn't! Expecting loyalty from a guy who is being mucked about is unfair on him- he has to do the best for himself. If he was categorically offered a new contract then that is a different story, but the FAW are playing hardball so Coleman should be allowed to as well. I notice nobody gave Speed a hard time for turning the Welsh job down to pursue a club career then changing his mind because he was on the verge of the sack. Thats how it goes in football- deal with it. |
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Post by welshwizard79 on Oct 31, 2013 13:34:36 GMT
Looks like Coleman has his heart set on the Palace job. Which means even if he doesn't get it, the FAW shouldn't renew his contract. Remember what happened last time a Wales manager stayed on when his heart wasn't in it any more (Sparky)? disaster. Coleman has to go now. You seem to be wilfully forgetting the fact that Coleman has had a contract offer taken off the table and does not know if he will be in a job in a few weeks time. Put yourself in his position, if he showed loyalty to us and then the Palace vacancy is filled in a week's time then the FAW give him the boot after Finland the guy will be unemployed. Would you be happy to sit on your thumbs if your employer was debating whether to renew your contract meanwhile another job comes up that you are eligible for? Course you wouldn't! Expecting loyalty from a guy who is being mucked about is unfair on him- he has to do the best for himself. If he was categorically offered a new contract then that is a different story, but the FAW are playing hardball so Coleman should be allowed to as well. I notice nobody gave Speed a hard time for turning the Welsh job down to pursue a club career then changing his mind because he was on the verge of the sack. Thats how it goes in football- deal with it. I have to agree. Colemans days were numbered following the comments made by Ford. No doubt the Palace job would turn his head as he is not ensured of the Wales job. Either way it works out better for us as he needs to go after this poor campaign. I think he will leave for the Palace job but hope he does it after the Finland to allow less disruption for that game. |
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Post by toshfan on Oct 31, 2013 13:34:54 GMT
Some very good postings in this thread.
Whether to award a contract going forward should not have come down to a friendly against Finland. Both Chris Coleman and the FAW should by now be 100% certain what they want to do.
If Coleman does indeed go or his contract is not renewed, I feel that there are a lot less choices out there than I thought there were a couple of months ago. But this will require a new thread.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2013 13:48:33 GMT
I'd be so disappointed in Coleman and the FAW if he goes to Palace. The players have come out and said that they want Chris Coleman to be their manager. I still think Coleman will stay on as manager, he truly believes and wants Wales to qualify for a major tournament, Euro 2016 is our time. It would be idiotic to have anyone else manage us in the next campaign IMO  . |
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Post by dai on Oct 31, 2013 13:53:37 GMT
Can't see coleman being any sort of success at palace. So his choices are, deal with a heap of sh*t and get poorly paid, or deal with a heap of sh*t and get paid better........
But like others have said, if he's already been in talks, that shows his intentions.
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Post by flynnfan on Oct 31, 2013 14:47:03 GMT
Looks like Coleman has his heart set on the Palace job. Which means even if he doesn't get it, the FAW shouldn't renew his contract. Remember what happened last time a Wales manager stayed on when his heart wasn't in it any more (Sparky)? disaster. Coleman has to go now. You seem to be wilfully forgetting the fact that Coleman has had a contract offer taken off the table and does not know if he will be in a job in a few weeks time. Put yourself in his position, if he showed loyalty to us and then the Palace vacancy is filled in a week's time then the FAW give him the boot after Finland the guy will be unemployed. Would you be happy to sit on your thumbs if your employer was debating whether to renew your contract meanwhile another job comes up that you are eligible for? Course you wouldn't! Expecting loyalty from a guy who is being mucked about is unfair on him- he has to do the best for himself. If he was categorically offered a new contract then that is a different story, but the FAW are playing hardball so Coleman should be allowed to as well. I notice nobody gave Speed a hard time for turning the Welsh job down to pursue a club career then changing his mind because he was on the verge of the sack. Thats how it goes in football- deal with it. yes, I (for the most part) agree with you... I don't blame him for having his heart set on Palace now. I still think he has to go. |
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Post by fred on Oct 31, 2013 17:23:57 GMT
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Post by squatter1 on Oct 31, 2013 18:42:01 GMT
Looks like Coleman has his heart set on the Palace job. Which means even if he doesn't get it, the FAW shouldn't renew his contract. Remember what happened last time a Wales manager stayed on when his heart wasn't in it any more (Sparky)? disaster. Coleman has to go now. You seem to be wilfully forgetting the fact that Coleman has had a contract offer taken off the table and does not know if he will be in a job in a few weeks time. Put yourself in his position, if he showed loyalty to us and then the Palace vacancy is filled in a week's time then the FAW give him the boot after Finland the guy will be unemployed. Would you be happy to sit on your thumbs if your employer was debating whether to renew your contract meanwhile another job comes up that you are eligible for? Course you wouldn't! Expecting loyalty from a guy who is being mucked about is unfair on him- he has to do the best for himself. If he was categorically offered a new contract then that is a different story, but the FAW are playing hardball so Coleman should be allowed to as well. I notice nobody gave Speed a hard time for turning the Welsh job down to pursue a club career then changing his mind because he was on the verge of the sack. Thats how it goes in football- deal with it. Yeah, this is fair enough. But either way, looks like both Wales and Coleman are coming to a close to me. I'm getting a sudden feeling that Ryan Giggs is gonna be our next manager. |
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Post by abwales on Oct 31, 2013 19:19:30 GMT
The guy got sacked by a league 1 club then managed a crap Greek side before being one of the most unsuccessful Wales managers ever. How on earth is he being considered for a premier league job, he shouldn't even be in the picture for a championship job.
If he goes, we should really consider ourselves lucky, unless of course, Dean Saunders is then chosen to take us forward. Oh wait, Saunders probably will get the job.
AHHHHHHHHHH we are going to fail.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2013 19:28:42 GMT
You seem to be wilfully forgetting the fact that Coleman has had a contract offer taken off the table and does not know if he will be in a job in a few weeks time. Put yourself in his position, if he showed loyalty to us and then the Palace vacancy is filled in a week's time then the FAW give him the boot after Finland the guy will be unemployed. Would you be happy to sit on your thumbs if your employer was debating whether to renew your contract meanwhile another job comes up that you are eligible for? Course you wouldn't! Expecting loyalty from a guy who is being mucked about is unfair on him- he has to do the best for himself. If he was categorically offered a new contract then that is a different story, but the FAW are playing hardball so Coleman should be allowed to as well. I notice nobody gave Speed a hard time for turning the Welsh job down to pursue a club career then changing his mind because he was on the verge of the sack. Thats how it goes in football- deal with it. Yeah, this is fair enough. But either way, looks like both Wales and Coleman are coming to a close to me. I'm getting a sudden feeling that Ryan Giggs is gonna be our next manager. Th best result all round is that Coleman gets the Palace job and is able to bow out gracefully with no bad feeling on either side. The worrying part is: a) We are in a good position to build some confidence off the back of a win and a draw, yet historically new Wales managers always strugle for half a year at least. b) I am absolutely convinced that Coleman's replacement will not be an improvement. Even more likely given the sums that Pulis wants. If I was Dean Saunders right now, I would be sat by my phone. |
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Post by georgetm1 on Oct 31, 2013 19:59:26 GMT
Money should not be such an issue when appointing a decent manager. You pay for quality and going for the cheapest option has never worked for us in the past. Even if we have to fork out £1.5 million a year for Pulis, if we qualify then the investment comes back ten fold. The Irish FA couldn't afford Trapatonni, so they found another way of paying his wages, and it seemed to work for them.
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Post by njdragon on Oct 31, 2013 20:13:28 GMT
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