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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2013 0:15:00 GMT
Joe Ledley has said the whole team is happy and WANT Coleman to stay.
Chris Gunter has said the same.
Neil Taylor has said the same.
Aaron Ramsey said the players partly played quality in the last two games for Coleman.
Of course he should stay :S :S
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Post by squatter1 on Nov 2, 2013 10:20:45 GMT
I see ROI are about to appoint O'Neil and Keane.
How we would kill for a duo like that.
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Post by njdragon on Nov 2, 2013 11:31:46 GMT
I see ROI are about to appoint O'Neil and Keane. How we would kill for a duo like that. Fuck fuck fuck fairplay to the FAI, prepared to put their balls on the line there. Sounds like it could be an awesome combination if they can work well together. |
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Post by toshfan on Nov 2, 2013 12:06:43 GMT
With respect, you are not speaking for "all". A minority of us on Apostle were supportive of Coleman continuing. apologies, the context of this didn't come out right somehow.It was me more or less saying that apostle and the welsh public have got what they want, but what do we do now? Is it really such a good idea? If you look at my other posts, I'm generally supportive of Coleman, I just want a manager who we are all behind(suppose that will never happen though) No need to apologise pal. Your last sentence is so important. As soon as an appointment is made some supporters will be setting up facebook groups or twitter accounts calling for the new appointment to go, especially if that appointment has links to Swansea or Cardiff. |
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Post by toshfan on Nov 2, 2013 12:09:17 GMT
I see ROI are about to appoint O'Neil and Keane. How we would kill for a duo like that. Um, no! My prediction is that O'Neill will not be a success at international football. He is a traditional British type manager promoting hardwork, passion and strong togetherness. Fans may love this but these are not the attributes that cut it at international level. Such an appointment for us would disturb our trajectory. The only good thing about up and at em football is that it would make you and njdragon happy. |
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Post by njdragon on Nov 2, 2013 12:36:20 GMT
I see ROI are about to appoint O'Neil and Keane. How we would kill for a duo like that. Um, no! My prediction is that O'Neill will not be a success at international football. He is a traditional British type manager promoting hardwork, passion and strong togetherness. Fans may love this but these are not the attributes that cut it at international level. Such an appointment for us would disturb our trajectory. The only good thing about up and at em football is that it would make you and njdragon happy. Not a success at international football - much like Toshack in that respect then |
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Post by toshfan on Nov 2, 2013 12:43:39 GMT
Um, no! My prediction is that O'Neill will not be a success at international football. He is a traditional British type manager promoting hardwork, passion and strong togetherness. Fans may love this but these are not the attributes that cut it at international level. Such an appointment for us would disturb our trajectory. The only good thing about up and at em football is that it would make you and njdragon happy. Not a success at international football - much like Toshack in that respect then You are quite right. Saving a Football nation on its knees and giving that country a future is not a success at international football.  |
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Post by njdragon on Nov 2, 2013 13:01:33 GMT
Not a success at international football - much like Toshack in that respect then You are quite right. Saving a Football nation on its knees and giving that country a future is not a success at international football. We were on our knees when he finally quit not when he started and constantly pointing out the one area that wasn't a complete disaster (His appointment of Flynn) should not be considered evidence that Toshacks time was a success. Never mind results, fifa rankings or supporters voting with their feet. |
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Post by marsvolta on Nov 2, 2013 13:06:55 GMT
I see ROI are about to appoint O'Neil and Keane. How we would kill for a duo like that. Wonder what the Northern Ireland fans think of o'neill taken the republic job? It would be like a Welsh legend taking the England managers job. |
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Post by toshfan on Nov 2, 2013 13:08:05 GMT
You are quite right. Saving a Football nation on its knees and giving that country a future is not a success at international football. We were on our knees when he finally quit not when he started and constantly pointing out the one area that wasn't a complete disaster (His appointment of Flynn) should not be considered evidence that Toshacks time was a success. Never mind results, fifa rankings or supporters voting with their feet. The one sensible thing you have ever said in the Toshack debate is that you and I will never agree. But this idea that my only argument for Toshack was the appointment of Flynn is untrue and you know that. Never mind the record on player development or being fit for purpose for international football. |
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Post by saints19 on Nov 2, 2013 13:15:06 GMT
You are quite right. Saving a Football nation on its knees and giving that country a future is not a success at international football. We were on our knees when he finally quit not when he started and constantly pointing out the one area that wasn't a complete disaster (His appointment of Flynn) should not be considered evidence that Toshacks time was a success. Never mind results, fifa rankings or supporters voting with their feet. I think you're being a bit harsh on Toshack there, when he joined we were on our way to 4th place out of a group of 6, he then guided us to 5th out of 7 and 4th out of 6, since he left we have finished 4th out of 5 and 5th out of 6! If anything Toshack's era looks quite good statistically, of course the stats are a bit inflated by us having played a lot of friendlies against small teams during his reign, but overall his reign was probably neither a total failure nor a huge success. |
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Post by njdragon on Nov 2, 2013 13:17:21 GMT
We were on our knees when he finally quit not when he started and constantly pointing out the one area that wasn't a complete disaster (His appointment of Flynn) should not be considered evidence that Toshacks time was a success. Never mind results, fifa rankings or supporters voting with their feet. The one sensible thing you have ever said in the Toshack debate is that you and I will never agree. But this idea that my only argument for Toshack was the appointment of Flynn is untrue and you know that. Never mind the record on player development or being fit for purpose for international football. I don't think its just you and I that will never agree on this Player development? Please expand as the clubs are responsible for player development. |
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Post by njdragon on Nov 2, 2013 13:22:59 GMT
We were on our knees when he finally quit not when he started and constantly pointing out the one area that wasn't a complete disaster (His appointment of Flynn) should not be considered evidence that Toshacks time was a success. Never mind results, fifa rankings or supporters voting with their feet. neither a total failure nor a huge success. Is this what we expect from a welsh manager now? I would remove the 'huge' from 'huge success' as it was no where near a success and was leaning more towards a total failure. Euro 2004 we finished 2nd place behind Italy and narrowly missed out (1 goal) on qualification then came tosh... |
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Post by saints19 on Nov 2, 2013 13:30:57 GMT
neither a total failure nor a huge success. Is this what we expect from a welsh manager now? I would remove the 'huge' from 'huge success' as it was no where near a success and was leaning more towards a total failure. Euro 2004 we finished 2nd place behind Italy and narrowly missed out (1 goal) on qualification then came tosh... More like, Euro 2004 qualifying we won the first 4 games, then drew one, lost three, then lost a play-off v Russia. Then in the following campaign Hughes led us to draws against Azerbaijan and Northern Ireland, and defeat against Poland before buggering off to Blackburn. That's the real state of things Toshack inherited, and much of it was down to Sparky's reluctance to plan for the future, although in fairness to Sparky the only way we finished 2nd in that group was down to his relentless focus on the present and playing the best players regardless of position or long-term considerations. And to answer your question, no, we expect success from a Wales manager, that's why Toshack was eventually made to leave by mutual consent. The point is though that Toshack had been making progress until about 2007/8 with a very young squad, things were looking up. So that's why he wasn't dismissed for a long time and that's why I don't see his reign as a failure, he gave our current group the best start from which to launch their international careers. Coleman has (in my view) been a worse manager than Toshack was as he was starting from a much better position. |
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Post by njdragon on Nov 2, 2013 13:34:52 GMT
We were on our knees when he finally quit not when he started and constantly pointing out the one area that wasn't a complete disaster (His appointment of Flynn) should not be considered evidence that Toshacks time was a success. Never mind results, fifa rankings or supporters voting with their feet. I think you're being a bit harsh on Toshack there, when he joined we were on our way to 4th place out of a group of 6, he then guided us to 5th out of 7 and 4th out of 6, since he left we have finished 4th out of 5 and 5th out of 6! If anything Toshack's era looks quite good statistically, of course the stats are a bit inflated by us having played a lot of friendlies against small teams during his reign, but overall his reign was probably neither a total failure nor a huge success. He guided us to 5th out of 7th? and 4th out of 6th? wow when you put it in that context is sounds a lot better  |
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Post by saints19 on Nov 2, 2013 13:38:55 GMT
I think you're being a bit harsh on Toshack there, when he joined we were on our way to 4th place out of a group of 6, he then guided us to 5th out of 7 and 4th out of 6, since he left we have finished 4th out of 5 and 5th out of 6! If anything Toshack's era looks quite good statistically, of course the stats are a bit inflated by us having played a lot of friendlies against small teams during his reign, but overall his reign was probably neither a total failure nor a huge success. He guided us to 5th out of 7th? and 4th out of 6th? wow when you put it in that context is sounds a lot better Compare it to 4/5 (Speed) and 5/6 (Coleman). Of course it is worth pointing out there was no 'minnow' in the Speed group, and in the Coleman group we were the 'minnow', but even accounting for that we did no worse under Toshack based on placings than we have since. Nor indeed, had we done before Toshack for many years, the 2004 campaign aside. |
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Post by njdragon on Nov 2, 2013 13:41:35 GMT
Is this what we expect from a welsh manager now? I would remove the 'huge' from 'huge success' as it was no where near a success and was leaning more towards a total failure. Euro 2004 we finished 2nd place behind Italy and narrowly missed out (1 goal) on qualification then came tosh... More like, Euro 2004 qualifying we won the first 4 games, then drew one, lost three, then lost a play-off v Russia. Then in the following campaign Hughes led us to draws against Azerbaijan and Northern Ireland, and defeat against Poland before buggering off to Blackburn. That's the real state of things Toshack inherited, and much of it was down to Sparky's reluctance to plan for the future, although in fairness to Sparky the only way we finished 2nd in that group was down to his relentless focus on the present and playing the best players regardless of position or long-term considerations. And to answer your question, no, we expect success from a Wales manager, that's why Toshack was eventually made to leave by mutual consent. The point is though that Toshack had been making progress until about 2007/8 with a very young squad, things were looking up. So that's why he wasn't dismissed for a long time and that's why I don't see his reign as a failure, he gave our current group the best start from which to launch their international careers. Coleman has (in my view) been a worse manager than Toshack was as he was starting from a much better position. There was no reluctance to plan for the future, it wasn't in his remit. He was a young manager focusing on getting results immediately or most likely he would be out of a job. For the large part Hughes achieved this, success to me is qualification and we were almost there with hughes. We haven't seen that for a long time before or after. Toshack was given the 5 year remit to plan for the future, which was extended when he didn't hit his goals - he was awarded this luxury. and to be honest mate comparing Coleman and Toshack doesn't add much weight to the argument. I'd rather have Toshack back over Coleman. |
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Post by njdragon on Nov 2, 2013 13:45:40 GMT
He guided us to 5th out of 7th? and 4th out of 6th? wow when you put it in that context is sounds a lot better Compare it to 4/5 (Speed) and 5/6 (Coleman). Of course it is worth pointing out there was no 'minnow' in the Speed group, and in the Coleman group we were the 'minnow', but even accounting for that we did no worse under Toshack based on placings than we have since. Nor indeed, had we done before Toshack for many years, the 2004 campaign aside. Well speed wasn't in charge for a full campaign was he, unlike tosh or coleman. Why the 2004 campaign aside? don't dismiss it if to favour your point, its a crucial stat. |
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Post by njdragon on Nov 2, 2013 14:02:57 GMT
Is this what we expect from a welsh manager now? I would remove the 'huge' from 'huge success' as it was no where near a success and was leaning more towards a total failure. Euro 2004 we finished 2nd place behind Italy and narrowly missed out (1 goal) on qualification then came tosh... More like, Euro 2004 qualifying we won the first 4 games, then drew one, lost three, then lost a play-off v Russia. Then in the following campaign Hughes led us to draws against Azerbaijan and Northern Ireland, and defeat against Poland before buggering off to Blackburn. Its worth pointing out that during 2006 (5/6th) campaign tosh was in charge for 50% of those games we also lost 2-0 and 1-0 away and home to austria, 1-0 loss to england, 1-0 to poland during his half. So hughes 2004 we finished 2nd. 2006 hughes/tosh we finished 5/6th. |
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Post by saints19 on Nov 2, 2013 14:08:55 GMT
Compare it to 4/5 (Speed) and 5/6 (Coleman). Of course it is worth pointing out there was no 'minnow' in the Speed group, and in the Coleman group we were the 'minnow', but even accounting for that we did no worse under Toshack based on placings than we have since. Nor indeed, had we done before Toshack for many years, the 2004 campaign aside. Well speed wasn't in charge for a full campaign was he, unlike tosh or coleman. Why the 2004 campaign aside? don't dismiss it if to favour your point, its a crucial stat. It was an anomaly. In 2002 qualifying with the same manager and a lot of the same players we finished 5/6. |
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Post by saints19 on Nov 2, 2013 14:10:37 GMT
More like, Euro 2004 qualifying we won the first 4 games, then drew one, lost three, then lost a play-off v Russia. Then in the following campaign Hughes led us to draws against Azerbaijan and Northern Ireland, and defeat against Poland before buggering off to Blackburn. Its worth pointing out that during 2006 (5/6th) campaign tosh was in charge for 50% of those games we also lost 2-0 and 1-0 away and home to austria, 1-0 loss to england, 1-0 to poland during his half. So hughes 2004 we finished 2nd. 2006 hughes/tosh we finished 5/6th. See post above. 2004 was a great campaign, but an anomaly by historical standards. I'm not saying that's what we should expect to achieve with the current set of players though. |
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Post by njdragon on Nov 2, 2013 14:20:14 GMT
Its worth pointing out that during 2006 (5/6th) campaign tosh was in charge for 50% of those games we also lost 2-0 and 1-0 away and home to austria, 1-0 loss to england, 1-0 to poland during his half. So hughes 2004 we finished 2nd. 2006 hughes/tosh we finished 5/6th. See post above. 2004 was a great campaign, but an anomaly by historical standards. I'm not saying that's what we should expect to achieve with the current set of players though. Yes you're right but that's what makes it such an achievement. I dislike this rubbishing of hughes, overall he did a lot as a manager for us and did it well. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2013 14:28:41 GMT
The only good thing about up and at em football is that it would make you and njdragon happy. I'd have of taken Martin O'Neill Tosh if Coleman had left before Trappatoni, he'd been interested, his Villa side was not boring from memory? |
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Post by toshfan on Nov 2, 2013 15:02:52 GMT
The one sensible thing you have ever said in the Toshack debate is that you and I will never agree. But this idea that my only argument for Toshack was the appointment of Flynn is untrue and you know that. Never mind the record on player development or being fit for purpose for international football. I don't think its just you and I that will never agree on this Player development? Please expand as the clubs are responsible for player development. I have done so previously. Were I to nominate someone to make the case for u21s and below within the Welsh set-up, it would not be you. |
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Post by toshfan on Nov 2, 2013 15:04:23 GMT
The only good thing about up and at em football is that it would make you and njdragon happy. I'd have of taken Martin O'Neill Tosh if Coleman had left before Trappatoni, he'd been interested, his Villa side was not boring from memory? You make my point. It is not about boring or entertaining and I have never argued that the British up and at em is boring. My point is that it is not sustainable at international level. |
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Post by njdragon on Nov 2, 2013 15:08:02 GMT
I don't think its just you and I that will never agree on this Player development? Please expand as the clubs are responsible for player development. I have done so previously. Were I to nominate someone to make the case for u21s and below within the Welsh set-up, it would not be you. Where's the link to your post then? Why i was 100% behind Flynn i think he was excellent with under 21s and they loved him. Was it player development though, i think the best part about Flynn was his ability to go out and find the players. He did that with swans, martinez, trundle, britton, monk and he did that with Wales - Vokes, Collison, Church, Williams and prob a lot more. Was no surprise that he took the post of chief scout at Donnie after he left Wales. We are now seeing players deciding to opt out of Wales under 21s and hold out for England instead. This is no coincidence. |
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Post by toshfan on Nov 2, 2013 15:08:07 GMT
See post above. 2004 was a great campaign, but an anomaly by historical standards. I'm not saying that's what we should expect to achieve with the current set of players though. Yes you're right but that's what makes it such an achievement. I dislike this rubbishing of hughes, overall he did a lot as a manager for us and did it well. I do regret that I have rubbished Hughes in any way because he is a Welsh hero. An incredible servant as a player and did his best as a manager. The problem I have was his legacy as a manager which was very very poor. As for the 2004 qualifiers, other than an outstanding victory away in Finland (his best performance during his tenure in my view) and the brilliant win at home against Italy, what was so great? We had the typical losses against Serbia (please can we avoid them next time) but Azerbaijan took 4 points off them during that round of qualifiers. |
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Post by njdragon on Nov 2, 2013 15:16:14 GMT
Yes you're right but that's what makes it such an achievement. I dislike this rubbishing of hughes, overall he did a lot as a manager for us and did it well. I do regret that I have rubbished Hughes in any way because he is a Welsh hero. An incredible servant as a player and did his best as a manager. The problem I have was his legacy as a manager which was very very poor. As for the 2004 qualifiers, other than an outstanding victory away in Finland (his best performance during his tenure in my view) and the brilliant win at home against Italy, what was so great? We had the typical losses against Serbia (please can we avoid them next time) but Azerbaijan took 4 points off them during that round of qualifiers. For me Hughes legacy was bringing the interest back to Welsh football and the crowds, it was exciting times 10 games without a defeat is not to be sniffed at. That games against Italy. Germany, Argentina were great for Wales and we started to seriously give the rugby heads a run for their money. Was great seeing lots of kids with Welsh shirts for the first time. It was a good time for us and everyone will remember the game against Italy, that's a legacy. |
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Post by toshfan on Nov 2, 2013 15:18:37 GMT
I do regret that I have rubbished Hughes in any way because he is a Welsh hero. An incredible servant as a player and did his best as a manager. The problem I have was his legacy as a manager which was very very poor. As for the 2004 qualifiers, other than an outstanding victory away in Finland (his best performance during his tenure in my view) and the brilliant win at home against Italy, what was so great? We had the typical losses against Serbia (please can we avoid them next time) but Azerbaijan took 4 points off them during that round of qualifiers. It was a good time for us and everyone will remember the game against Italy, that's a legacy. Not if Welsh football was heading for its knees one year later. |
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Post by toshfan on Nov 2, 2013 15:20:58 GMT
I have done so previously. Were I to nominate someone to make the case for u21s and below within the Welsh set-up, it would not be you. Where's the link to your post then? Why i was 100% behind Flynn i think he was excellent with under 21s and they loved him. Was it player development though, i think the best part about Flynn was his ability to go out and find the players. He did that with swans, martinez, trundle, britton, monk and he did that with Wales - Vokes, Collison, Church, Williams and prob a lot more. Was no surprise that he took the post of chief scout at Donnie after he left Wales. We are now seeing players deciding to opt out of Wales under 21s and hold out for England instead. This is no coincidence. It is nice we can agree that Flynn was brilliant for Wales. My problem with your approach has been your previous argument that player development is purely down to the clubs. It is not that simple in my view and you acknowledgement of Flynn actually highlights why the view is naïve. Were it not for Flynn, I doubt that Joniesta, Robson-Kanu & Collison would be with us. |
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