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Post by njdragon on Nov 2, 2013 15:22:17 GMT
It was a good time for us and everyone will remember the game against Italy, that's a legacy. Not if Welsh football was heading for its knees one year later. but it's been on it's knees before and after hughes, so should hughes be blamed for that! We had that successful blip with hughes in charge and that's the best we've had it in a long long time! |
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Post by njdragon on Nov 2, 2013 15:24:34 GMT
Where's the link to your post then? Why i was 100% behind Flynn i think he was excellent with under 21s and they loved him. Was it player development though, i think the best part about Flynn was his ability to go out and find the players. He did that with swans, martinez, trundle, britton, monk and he did that with Wales - Vokes, Collison, Church, Williams and prob a lot more. Was no surprise that he took the post of chief scout at Donnie after he left Wales. We are now seeing players deciding to opt out of Wales under 21s and hold out for England instead. This is no coincidence. It is nice we can agree that Flynn was brilliant for Wales. My problem with your approach has been your previous argument that player development is purely down to the clubs. It is not that simple in my view and you acknowledgement of Flynn actually highlights why the view is naïve. Were it not for Flynn, I doubt that Joniesta, Robson-Kanu & Collison would be with us. That's what i just said - he went out and got those English players and made them want to play for us. Did he develop them though, no. Their clubs did this. |
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Post by toshfan on Nov 2, 2013 17:13:17 GMT
It is nice we can agree that Flynn was brilliant for Wales. My problem with your approach has been your previous argument that player development is purely down to the clubs. It is not that simple in my view and you acknowledgement of Flynn actually highlights why the view is naïve. Were it not for Flynn, I doubt that Joniesta, Robson-Kanu & Collison would be with us. That's what i just said - he went out and got those English players and made them want to play for us. Did he develop them though, no. Their clubs did this. The point is that u21 football was taken seriously during the Toshack years. It was not taken seriously during the Sparky years. Had Sparky continued, Flynn would not have been brought on these player would never have been ours. How successful were our u21s when Sparky was our manager? |
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Post by toshfan on Nov 2, 2013 17:14:05 GMT
Not if Welsh football was heading for its knees one year later. but it's been on it's knees before and after hughes, so should hughes be blamed for that! We had that successful blip with hughes in charge and that's the best we've had it in a long long time! A blip of two games which is the best you will get when your model is based on passion and up and at em. |
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Post by njdragon on Nov 2, 2013 17:50:52 GMT
That's what i just said - he went out and got those English players and made them want to play for us. Did he develop them though, no. Their clubs did this. The point is that u21 football was taken seriously during the Toshack years. It was not taken seriously during the Sparky years. Had Sparky continued, Flynn would not have been brought on these player would never have been ours. How successful were our u21s when Sparky was our manager? How successful were the u21's when Gould was our manager? Sparky didn't appoint shoulder he inherited him. The success of a national team manager doesn't limit itself to the under 21's doing well. It's the senior results the senior manager gets judged on. When Tosh left were the under 21 results still down to him too? It was Flynn that set this side up and as i have mentioned twice now secured and motivated the players at under 21 level. |
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Post by njdragon on Nov 2, 2013 17:52:23 GMT
but it's been on it's knees before and after hughes, so should hughes be blamed for that! We had that successful blip with hughes in charge and that's the best we've had it in a long long time! A blip of two games which is the best you will get when your model is based on passion and up and at em. and also very nearly qualifying for a european championships i might also add. |
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Post by rushlegend on Nov 2, 2013 20:51:14 GMT
Hughes had players who were at there peak of there career or nearing the end.
Toshack had to almost start again with Rob Edwards, Sam Ricketts, Carl Fletcher, Carl Robinson replacing Mark Delaney, Gary Speed, Robbie Savage, Mark Pembridge
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2013 21:04:49 GMT
Hughes had players who were at there peak of there career or nearing the end. Toshack had to almost start again with Rob Edwards, Sam Ricketts, Carl Fletcher, Carl Robinson replacing Mark Delaney, Gary Speed, Robbie Savage, Mark Pembridge Toshack would not have had to start again if he had not been such a total c*** as a pundit during the Hughes era. His conduct was appalling during the Italy game in particular, spent all the pre-match analysis putting pressure on saying things like "you have to beat teams like Italy if you want to qualify, a draw is no good" and then on one of the best nights in history for Welsh football he couldn't even crack a smile afterwards- in fact he looked like someone had pissed on his kids because he couldn't believe we had won and his ego couldn't cope with the fact that a Welsh team was doing the business and he was not getting any credit. I can understand why his appointment drew so many withdrawals after all that carry on, but it has to be said that it still does not excuse the likes of Speed from retiring purely out of spite as it made them no better than Toshack and helped set up the miserable years that were to follow. |
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Post by toshfan on Nov 2, 2013 23:08:21 GMT
A blip of two games which is the best you will get when your model is based on passion and up and at em. and also very nearly qualifying for a european championships i might also add. Yes, how often can two excellent performances get us to that position? Quote unique. |
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Post by toshfan on Nov 2, 2013 23:17:27 GMT
Hughes had players who were at there peak of there career or nearing the end. Toshack had to almost start again with Rob Edwards, Sam Ricketts, Carl Fletcher, Carl Robinson replacing Mark Delaney, Gary Speed, Robbie Savage, Mark Pembridge Toshack would not have had to start again if he had not been such a total c*** as a pundit during the Hughes era. His conduct was appalling during the Italy game in particular, spent all the pre-match analysis putting pressure on saying things like "you have to beat teams like Italy if you want to qualify, a draw is no good" and then on one of the best nights in history for Welsh football he couldn't even crack a smile afterwards- in fact he looked like someone had pissed on his kids because he couldn't believe we had won and his ego couldn't cope with the fact that a Welsh team was doing the business and he was not getting any credit. I can understand why his appointment drew so many withdrawals after all that carry on, but it has to be said that it still does not excuse the likes of Speed from retiring purely out of spite as it made them no better than Toshack and helped set up the miserable years that were to follow. I cannot find anything in that posting that is either accurate or reasonable. Please see 1:30 of the following: www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MkCUQSa4AMThe three on the panel did not like what he was saying. Was he right? Yes. 4:00 onwards is revealing and an area where I have been critical of John Toshack. He should have asked Speedo to come out of retirement to help his youth revolution. Speedo retired just after the final whistle against Poland at the end of the Sparky era. Whether he went because he thought Toshack was coming in is something I have not seen suggested or proven. I find the video sad and inspirational at the same time. The man saved Welsh Football and gave us a future. |
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Post by toshfan on Nov 2, 2013 23:51:33 GMT
On MOTD, the odds for the Palace Job included Coleman being the 1/2 favourite. Those type of odds suggest he is as good as gone  |
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Post by walrus on Nov 3, 2013 2:47:34 GMT
The problem we still have is that we do not have an identity or football philosophy yet. all the changes have undermined that. Do we as Storm suggests use traditional methods of passion energy and direct play; do we pursue a more thoughtful patient style and counter or do we have a mixture of styles.
IMHo the time is right to go for the latter, whereby a mix of hard pressing and fluid attacking play is merged with times of defensive austerity. We have the gifted players to attack but not enough to dominate nor to dominate the possession game. I feel we do though have the ability to go at teams in 10 to 20 minute spells.
Wales need to be clever and vary their game.
Tosh...damaged goods, Bellamy.....untested but passionate, Pulis......gawd no. Giggs....untrustworthy.
Saunders..... failed in clubland. Savage......, Barry Horne....... be nice to see pundits put their mouths on the line.
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Post by squatter1 on Nov 3, 2013 8:52:47 GMT
Savage? Horne? You cannot be serious.
It wouldn't be 'nice' to see them out their money where their mouths are. It would be unspeakably nightmarish.
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Post by Tim P on Nov 3, 2013 13:28:00 GMT
Savage? Horne? You cannot be serious. It wouldn't be 'nice' to see them out their money where their mouths are. It would be unspeakably nightmarish. Truth. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2013 14:27:42 GMT
www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/24763266"Hopefully we can keep him with Wales and hopefully we can move forward together," Celtic's Ledley said. "He's done a good job [for Wales]," he said. "It took a while but [it was] a fantastic end to the [qualifying] group. "He's been fantastic since I've been there and everyone's totally behind him. Everyone wants to meet up and everyone wants to be there. "That's what we need to qualify - everyone to turn up and play for their country. We all get on and that's the main thing to get this country [going] forward." Coleman should stay!!
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Post by njdragon on Nov 3, 2013 17:13:35 GMT
and also very nearly qualifying for a european championships i might also add. Yes, how often can two excellent performances get us to that position? Quote unique. Here's a comparison for you - EURO 2004 Hughes 4-0 win at home to Azerbaijan, class performance 2-0 win to Wales away against Azerbaijan 2-0 win to wales away against Finland 1-1 drawn Finland home Euro 2004 Wales finish 2nd in group World Cup 2010 Tosh (the saviour) 1-0 win to Azerbaijan at home, vokes in 83rd minute. What an awful game too. 1-0 win to Wales away against Azerbaijan 2-0 loss to Finland away 2-1 loss to Finland away World cup 2010 Wales finish 4th |
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Post by njdragon on Nov 3, 2013 17:33:20 GMT
Toshack would not have had to start again if he had not been such a total c*** as a pundit during the Hughes era. His conduct was appalling during the Italy game in particular, spent all the pre-match analysis putting pressure on saying things like "you have to beat teams like Italy if you want to qualify, a draw is no good" and then on one of the best nights in history for Welsh football he couldn't even crack a smile afterwards- in fact he looked like someone had pissed on his kids because he couldn't believe we had won and his ego couldn't cope with the fact that a Welsh team was doing the business and he was not getting any credit. I can understand why his appointment drew so many withdrawals after all that carry on, but it has to be said that it still does not excuse the likes of Speed from retiring purely out of spite as it made them no better than Toshack and helped set up the miserable years that were to follow. I cannot find anything in that posting that is either accurate or reasonable. Please see 1:30 of the following: www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MkCUQSa4AMThe three on the panel did not like what he was saying. Was he right? Yes. 4:00 onwards is revealing and an area where I have been critical of John Toshack. He should have asked Speedo to come out of retirement to help his youth revolution. Speedo retired just after the final whistle against Poland at the end of the Sparky era. Whether he went because he thought Toshack was coming in is something I have not seen suggested or proven. I find the video sad and inspirational at the same time. The man saved Welsh Football and gave us a future. Speed, Melville, Pembridge and Johnson Retired after the Poland game. It was widely known at the time they weren't happy with tosh taking over. Some players - notably Birmingham City's Robbie Savage - had expressed disquiet about continuing their careers under Toshack after he criticised Welsh performances in his role as TV pundit. |
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Post by Tim P on Nov 3, 2013 17:38:27 GMT
www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/24763266"Hopefully we can keep him with Wales and hopefully we can move forward together," Celtic's Ledley said. "He's done a good job [for Wales]," he said. "It took a while but [it was] a fantastic end to the [qualifying] group. "He's been fantastic since I've been there and everyone's totally behind him. Everyone wants to meet up and everyone wants to be there. "That's what we need to qualify - everyone to turn up and play for their country. We all get on and that's the main thing to get this country [going] forward." Coleman should stay!! Joe Ledley chose to play in scotland and seems happy playing there. I'm not sure he knows what is best from a footballing point of view. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2013 18:27:45 GMT
www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/24763266"Hopefully we can keep him with Wales and hopefully we can move forward together," Celtic's Ledley said. "He's done a good job [for Wales]," he said. "It took a while but [it was] a fantastic end to the [qualifying] group. "He's been fantastic since I've been there and everyone's totally behind him. Everyone wants to meet up and everyone wants to be there. "That's what we need to qualify - everyone to turn up and play for their country. We all get on and that's the main thing to get this country [going] forward." Coleman should stay!! Joe Ledley chose to play in scotland and seems happy playing there. I'm not sure he knows what is best from a footballing point of view. What about Neil Taylor and Chris Gunter who have said the same? also Ledley specifically says "everyone's totally behind him. Everyone wants to meet up and everyone wants to be there." So he's talking on behalf of the team not just from his personal point of view. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2013 19:19:16 GMT
Joe Ledley chose to play in scotland and seems happy playing there. I'm not sure he knows what is best from a footballing point of view. What about Neil Taylor and Chris Gunter who have said the same? also Ledley specifically says "everyone's totally behind him. Everyone wants to meet up and everyone wants to be there." So he's talking on behalf of the team not just from his personal point of view. I refer you to the "gunter would back a turd" discussion. |
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Post by abwales on Nov 3, 2013 20:37:57 GMT
You're seriously quoting players to aid your argument that Coleman should stay???
The players will be behind whoever comes in to replace the failure of a manager!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2013 20:47:59 GMT
You're seriously quoting players to aid your argument that Coleman should stay??? The players will be behind whoever comes in to replace the failure of a manager! I reckon the FAW shouldn't listen to the players, they should go against what they want, change the whole system they're now used to and force them to have to adapt to another manager and coaching staff before a qualifying campaign...then at the end of it when we've missed out all the players will say "we're getting used to the new manager now, next time maybe" ...okay!! |
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Post by biwmares on Nov 3, 2013 21:02:47 GMT
I reckon the FAW shouldn't listen to the players, they should go against what they want, change the whole system they're now used to and force them to have to adapt to another manager and coaching staff before a qualifying campaign...then at the end of it when we've missed out all the players will say "we're getting used to the new manager now, next time maybe" ...okay!!
They have done this before though
When appointing Coleman & Co against the wishes of the players & fans
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2013 21:08:41 GMT
Well apparently it didn't turn out that well so maybe the FAW should give the players what they want this time around!! There is no realistic option that would do better than Chris Coleman, Bookies really backing him to go to Palace though so we might have to settle for Dean Saunders  |
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Post by toshfan on Nov 3, 2013 21:10:17 GMT
Yes, how often can two excellent performances get us to that position? Quote unique. Here's a comparison for you - EURO 2004 Hughes 4-0 win at home to Azerbaijan, class performance 2-0 win to Wales away against Azerbaijan 2-0 win to wales away against Finland 1-1 drawn Finland home Euro 2004 Wales finish 2nd in group World Cup 2010 Tosh (the saviour) 1-0 win to Azerbaijan at home, vokes in 83rd minute. What an awful game too. 1-0 win to Wales away against Azerbaijan 2-0 loss to Finland away 2-1 loss to Finland away World cup 2010 Wales finish 4th Your posting is not relevant to the point that I was making. The above notwithstanding, there are three flaws in your posting: - You are highlighting two results I have long conceded were not impressive games during the Toshack era, especially the loss at home
- The footage I have quoted in response to another posting had Toshack commenting on what happened after the four victories
- The Sparky team was at its peak; The rebuilding of the Toshack team was not complete but I still believe in the first point.
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Post by njdragon on Nov 4, 2013 8:57:59 GMT
Here's a comparison for you - EURO 2004 Hughes 4-0 win at home to Azerbaijan, class performance 2-0 win to Wales away against Azerbaijan 2-0 win to wales away against Finland 1-1 drawn Finland home Euro 2004 Wales finish 2nd in group World Cup 2010 Tosh (the saviour) 1-0 win to Azerbaijan at home, vokes in 83rd minute. What an awful game too. 1-0 win to Wales away against Azerbaijan 2-0 loss to Finland away 2-1 loss to Finland away World cup 2010 Wales finish 4th Your posting is not relevant to the point that I was making. The above notwithstanding, there are three flaws in your posting: - You are highlighting two results I have long conceded were not impressive games during the Toshack era, especially the loss at home
- The footage I have quoted in response to another posting had Toshack commenting on what happened after the four victories
- The Sparky team was at its peak; The rebuilding of the Toshack team was not complete but I still believe in the first point.
I saw the clip but i could quote you a run of results under Toshack that were equally unimpressive - He talked the talk but came in and certainly did no better. He said he didn't enjoy the 6 matches (4 defeats, 2 draws) when we eventually came runner up to italy in the group but i didn't enjoy the majority of 6 years under tosh when we came nowhere near qualification leaving us to chase 3rd place nearly every campaign only to be let down again then. In his own words tosh said 'judge me on results'. |
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Post by toshfan on Nov 4, 2013 9:29:42 GMT
Your posting is not relevant to the point that I was making. The above notwithstanding, there are three flaws in your posting: - You are highlighting two results I have long conceded were not impressive games during the Toshack era, especially the loss at home
- The footage I have quoted in response to another posting had Toshack commenting on what happened after the four victories
- The Sparky team was at its peak; The rebuilding of the Toshack team was not complete but I still believe in the first point.
I saw the clip but i could quote you a run of results under Toshack that were equally unimpressive - He talked the talk but came in and certainly did no better. He said he didn't enjoy the 6 matches (4 defeats, 2 draws) when we eventually came runner up to italy in the group but i didn't enjoy the majority of 6 years under tosh when we came nowhere near qualification leaving us to chase 3rd place nearly every campaign only to be let down again then. In his own words tosh said 'judge me on results'. Of course it is a results business but he actually said (wrongly in my view) to judge him on 2010. I loved the start of the youth revolution, something no predecessor had kicked off before him. I loved having an u21 team competing as it was great in its own right plus it gave us a future. I also loved the end of 'up and at em' football. As you saw the videdo, despite the squad Mark Hughes had - with no pressing need to build from the bottom (in the short/medium term), he won 5 qualifiers in total. |
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Post by gareth on Nov 4, 2013 9:40:15 GMT
I heard a few people, not necessarily on here, talk about how Tosh started the ball rolling with our development. He was maybe an ideal man to control from boardroom or to restructure, but in my opinion not the man when it came to contact with players and man management.
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Post by llannerch on Nov 4, 2013 13:58:29 GMT
I heard a few people, not necessarily on here, talk about how Tosh started the ball rolling with our development. He was maybe an ideal man to control from boardroom or to restructure, but in my opinion not the man when it came to contact with players and man management. I suppose the club parallel would have seen Tosh as a Director of Football with someone else, probably younger, having more of the contact with the players. I can't see there being enough time however in camp to justify it. So perhaps the criticism of Tosh is not that he was out of touch with the players, but rather he didn't have someone in the coaching set-up who was sufficiently in touch with them. Roy Evans, Iriarte and Dean Saunders comprised his team with Flynn with the intermediate groups. If so that doesn't reflect well on Saunders does it? |
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Post by dai on Nov 5, 2013 15:27:37 GMT
Interesting.........http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/chris-coleman-could-be-in-charge-of-crystal-palace-for-saturdays-match-8920816.html
It is a sad state of affairs that not even a poor top flight league club want an 'international manager' in charge. Does anyone recall another manager who's been in charge of a country who wouldn't be welcomed at a club? Feel sorry for him in a way, as from what I've read on various Palace forums, he's really not wanted.
Also, it's daft as hell to buy into these 'we're behind the manager' reports from players.
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