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Post by walesgolfmadrid on Oct 7, 2020 19:24:01 GMT
Yeah, so you've got the best part of a year there, adding to that he made his international debut over two years after Bale did (May 2006, compared to November 2008) and you've got three years of international football. On a rough average of 8 games of international football a year, that's 24 games, and there's 25 caps between them. If you want to look at the broader picture of caps, rather than the reasoning behind any absences, then it doesn't show any difference between the two players level of commitment. all well and good if he can do that but he's played a total of 8 games since 2018 whereas bale has played 17 Something doesn't add up there He's missed a higher amount of games since then because of injury, and legitimate reasons - just as Gareth Bale has missed more games because of injury in certain periods than Ramsey because of injury. You've already shown that he's missed 800+ days with injury, so it definitely adds up. Ramsey earned 19 caps for Wales from 2010-11, where as Bale earned 10 caps. Ramsey earned 13 caps from 2017-18, where as Bale earned 9 caps. It's easy to point out these periods in which Ramsey earned more caps than Bale because as has been stated above, taking the leg break out of it, they average the same amount of caps per year for Wales, and naturally both will have time where they're featuring more for Wales. |
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Post by njdragon on Oct 7, 2020 19:24:09 GMT
Lets look at the facts which are easy for us all to digest - caps/games played. Tell me why does Bale have 25 more caps than Ramsey? both injury prone players, played for big clubs, starters for club and country. Both played abroad. I agree, let's look at facts. I love facts because you can't dispute them. So, if you just look at just caps you're ignoring all the other many variables that contribute to someone turning out for their country. It's a simplistic & quite frankly a reductionistic way of looking at something. With that in mind here's some additional facts that you need to consider if you want to look at the whole picture 1) Bale had played 15 times for Wales before Ramsey's first cap - so that negates 15 of those 25 extra caps you mention. In reality since Ramsey's debut Bale has played 10 extra games in total 2) Ramsey broke his leg in 2010 meaning he couldn't play that year - not his fault as I'm sure you'd agree. Bale picked up 4 caps that year, so if we both agree this wasn't Ramsey's fault we can agree to chalk off those 4 caps Bale gained on him - as it's clearly not a question of Ramsey's effort or lack thereof 3) With that in mind we're talking about only 6 extra caps for Bale - the majority of which I'd be willing to bet are down to legitimate injury, although you can argue Bale's commitment over only 6 extra caps if you wish. Although... 4) When you remove Ramsey's leg break year - they both average 6 games per year for Wales. Hardly looks like much of a difference between their turnout records to me Seems as though your comparison to Bale has fallen apart in light of these facts - do you have anything else to support your view? yeh well done columbo! how would you explain 2018/19/20 Ramsey has 8 caps Bale 17 (I think this supports the Bale comparison) and even joe allen has 12  |
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Post by dai on Oct 7, 2020 19:27:58 GMT
While we're arguing over Ramsey - Bale, it's very frustrating to see Ronaldo play for Portugal tonight.
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Post by njdragon on Oct 7, 2020 19:28:19 GMT
all well and good if he can do that but he's played a total of 8 games since 2018 whereas bale has played 17 Something doesn't add up there He's missed a higher amount of games since then because of injury, and legitimate reasons - just as Gareth Bale has missed more games because of injury in certain periods than Ramsey because of injury. You've already shown that he's missed 800+ days with injury, so it definitely adds up. Ramsey earned 19 caps for Wales from 2010-11, where as Bale earned 10 caps. Ramsey earned 13 caps from 2017-18, where as Bale earned 9 caps. It's easy to point out these periods in which Ramsey earned more caps than Bale because as has been stated above, taking the leg break out of it, they average the same amount of caps per year for Wales, and naturally both will have time where they're featuring more for Wales. not at all - Ramsey missed the large portion of games with the leg break in 2010 -248 games. I don't think 8 games since 2018 is a good return on ramsey - its as simple as that. Im not seeing him as committed now, that's a large portion of giggs terms he has hardly played for us. I don't understand how you can keep on defending that - its poor. Almost a year he went without playing a game with no major injuries. |
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Post by njdragon on Oct 7, 2020 19:29:13 GMT
While we're arguing over Ramsey - Bale, it's very frustrating to see Ronaldo play for Portugal tonight. fuck well that's just the cherry on the cake  |
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Post by walesgolfmadrid on Oct 7, 2020 19:40:28 GMT
He's missed a higher amount of games since then because of injury, and legitimate reasons - just as Gareth Bale has missed more games because of injury in certain periods than Ramsey because of injury. You've already shown that he's missed 800+ days with injury, so it definitely adds up. Ramsey earned 19 caps for Wales from 2010-11, where as Bale earned 10 caps. Ramsey earned 13 caps from 2017-18, where as Bale earned 9 caps. It's easy to point out these periods in which Ramsey earned more caps than Bale because as has been stated above, taking the leg break out of it, they average the same amount of caps per year for Wales, and naturally both will have time where they're featuring more for Wales. not at all - Ramsey missed the large portion of games with the leg break in 2010 -248 games. I don't think 8 games since 2018 is a good return on ramsey - its as simple as that. Im not seeing him as committed now, that's a large portion of giggs terms he has hardly played for us. I don't understand how you can keep on defending that - its poor. Almost a year he went without playing a game with no major injuries. You wanted an explanation as to why Bale has 25 more caps than Ramsey, as if it's proof that Ramsey isn't committed as Bale, so I've told you why that's the case. I'm not wasting any more time explaining it, it's pretty clear. |
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Post by dai on Oct 7, 2020 19:41:06 GMT
Who will retire first, Ramsey or Bale?
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Post by allezlesrouges on Oct 7, 2020 19:41:29 GMT
I agree, let's look at facts. I love facts because you can't dispute them. So, if you just look at just caps you're ignoring all the other many variables that contribute to someone turning out for their country. It's a simplistic & quite frankly a reductionistic way of looking at something. With that in mind here's some additional facts that you need to consider if you want to look at the whole picture 1) Bale had played 15 times for Wales before Ramsey's first cap - so that negates 15 of those 25 extra caps you mention. In reality since Ramsey's debut Bale has played 10 extra games in total 2) Ramsey broke his leg in 2010 meaning he couldn't play that year - not his fault as I'm sure you'd agree. Bale picked up 4 caps that year, so if we both agree this wasn't Ramsey's fault we can agree to chalk off those 4 caps Bale gained on him - as it's clearly not a question of Ramsey's effort or lack thereof 3) With that in mind we're talking about only 6 extra caps for Bale - the majority of which I'd be willing to bet are down to legitimate injury, although you can argue Bale's commitment over only 6 extra caps if you wish. Although... 4) When you remove Ramsey's leg break year - they both average 6 games per year for Wales. Hardly looks like much of a difference between their turnout records to me Seems as though your comparison to Bale has fallen apart in light of these facts - do you have anything else to support your view? yeh well done columbo! how would you explain 2018/19/20 Ramsey has 8 caps Bale 17 (I think this supports the Bale comparison) and even joe allen has 12 So you've changed your argument then? Now your argument isn't about who has shown the most commitment over the course of their careers, you're arguing that since 2018 Bale has been more committed than Ramsey? If that's the case I'm not sure why you brought up their overall caps? Since 2018 Ramsey has had a run of injuries that have coincided with the international breaks which has been unfortunate. The only time he's not played for us and then gone and played for Juventus immediately was this most recent camp (Finland & Bulgaria). I'd argue the merits of him doing this as he's clearly forced himself into Pirlo's plans, however you probably aren't interested in that. Given that every other example since 2018 has been to due to injury I'd say that saying it's down to the fact that he isn't committed is way off the mark - pure conjecture & not supported by the fact that he also hasn't been turning out for his club during these international breaks (Finland & Bulgaria aside!) |
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Post by manulike on Oct 7, 2020 19:44:01 GMT
#WALES.Arsenal.biscuits.juve
In that order ;-)
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Post by njdragon on Oct 7, 2020 19:54:13 GMT
yeh well done columbo! how would you explain 2018/19/20 Ramsey has 8 caps Bale 17 (I think this supports the Bale comparison) and even joe allen has 12 So you've changed your argument then? Now your argument isn't about who has shown the most commitment over the course of their careers, you're arguing that since 2018 Bale has been more committed than Ramsey? If that's the case I'm not sure why you brought up their overall caps? Since 2018 Ramsey has had a run of injuries that have coincided with the international breaks which has been unfortunate. The only time he's not played for us and then gone and played for Juventus immediately was this most recent camp (Finland & Bulgaria). I'd argue the merits of him doing this as he's clearly forced himself into Pirlo's plans, however you probably aren't interested in that. Given that every other example since 2018 has been to due to injury I'd say that saying it's down to the fact that he isn't committed is way off the mark - pure conjecture & not supported by the fact that he also hasn't been turning out for his club during these international breaks (Finland & Bulgaria aside!) my argument has never been ramsey has never been committed to wales. The last couple of years i'm not seeing it - look ive followed ramseys career since he was in the 21s. Its disappointing that he's not turning out as frequently now. Just because you don't like it, it doesn't mean it's not true. |
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Post by njdragon on Oct 7, 2020 19:57:18 GMT
not at all - Ramsey missed the large portion of games with the leg break in 2010 -248 games. I don't think 8 games since 2018 is a good return on ramsey - its as simple as that. Im not seeing him as committed now, that's a large portion of giggs terms he has hardly played for us. I don't understand how you can keep on defending that - its poor. Almost a year he went without playing a game with no major injuries. You wanted an explanation as to why Bale has 25 more caps than Ramsey, as if it's proof that Ramsey isn't committed as Bale, so I've told you why that's the case. I'm not wasting any more time explaining it, it's pretty clear. 8 games since 2018 - missing for large parts of the recent qualifiers. |
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Post by dai on Oct 7, 2020 19:57:45 GMT
At the end of the day, Ramsey clearly had a choice to play tomorrow - IF he wanted. Even if it was only for 45 minutes in a friendly, fatigue shouldn't really be an issue with those sort of minutes for elite athletes. It's extremely disappointing he hasn't, and a bit embarrassing we're not fielding our fittest best player.
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Post by insertname on Oct 7, 2020 20:01:34 GMT
Lets look at the facts which are easy for us all to digest - caps/games played. Tell me why does Bale have 25 more caps than Ramsey? both injury prone players, played for big clubs, starters for club and country. Both played abroad. Ramsey's two years younger than Bale, and whilst both have had injury problems throughout their career, Bale didn't miss a year with a double leg break. With those two factors isn't mind, there isn't a lot between them. Bale doesn’t have the reputation of starting for his club after international games, that’s the big difference for me. With Ramsey there is occasionally a seemingly innocuous tweak or strain that conveniently requires a few days off. We’ve seen it at Juventus (turning out for the under 23s) but mostly at Arsenal Maybe it was Wenger? Maybe it was the FAW’s doctors? Maybe Ramsey just didn’t fancy it? Regardless, Ramsey is offered the sort of benefit of the doubt on here that this forum has never traditionally awarded the less skilful, anglo squad players such as Andrew Crofts, Danny Collins and Paul Dummett. Anyone without an ounce of skill and it’s considered tantamount to heresy that they should bugger Wales about by playing for clubs either side of an international window. Basically, it seems to me be considered an irreplaceable player and you can act like the prodigal son. |
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Post by erasedcitizen on Oct 7, 2020 20:05:27 GMT
Ramsey's two years younger than Bale, and whilst both have had injury problems throughout their career, Bale didn't miss a year with a double leg break. With those two factors isn't mind, there isn't a lot between them. Bale doesn’t have the reputation of starting for his club after international games, that’s the big difference for me. With Ramsey there is occasionally a seemingly innocuous tweak or strain that conveniently requires a few days off. We’ve seen it at Juventus (turning out for the under 23s) but mostly at Arsenal Maybe it was Wenger? Maybe it was the FAW’s doctors? Maybe Ramsey just didn’t fancy it? Regardless, Ramsey is offered the sort of benefit of the doubt on here that this forum has never traditionally awarded the less skilful, anglo squad players such as Andrew Crofts, Danny Collins and Paul Dummett. Anyone without an ounce of skill and it’s considered tantamount to heresy that they should bugger Wales about by playing for clubs either side of an international window. Basically, it seems to me be considered an irreplaceable player and you can act like the prodigal son. Ramsey has received stick pretty much every time he's pulled out. |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Oct 7, 2020 20:09:41 GMT
So you've changed your argument then? Now your argument isn't about who has shown the most commitment over the course of their careers, you're arguing that since 2018 Bale has been more committed than Ramsey? If that's the case I'm not sure why you brought up their overall caps? Since 2018 Ramsey has had a run of injuries that have coincided with the international breaks which has been unfortunate. The only time he's not played for us and then gone and played for Juventus immediately was this most recent camp (Finland & Bulgaria). I'd argue the merits of him doing this as he's clearly forced himself into Pirlo's plans, however you probably aren't interested in that. Given that every other example since 2018 has been to due to injury I'd say that saying it's down to the fact that he isn't committed is way off the mark - pure conjecture & not supported by the fact that he also hasn't been turning out for his club during these international breaks (Finland & Bulgaria aside!) my argument has never been ramsey has never been committed to wales. The last couple of years i'm not seeing it - look ive followed ramseys career since he was in the 21s. Its disappointing that he's not turning out as frequently now. Just because you don't like it, it doesn't mean it's not true. And just because you think it's true doesn't mean it is - as proven by the points I made in my last post that you just completely ignored? |
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Post by insertname on Oct 7, 2020 20:15:28 GMT
Bale doesn’t have the reputation of starting for his club after international games, that’s the big difference for me. With Ramsey there is occasionally a seemingly innocuous tweak or strain that conveniently requires a few days off. We’ve seen it at Juventus (turning out for the under 23s) but mostly at Arsenal Maybe it was Wenger? Maybe it was the FAW’s doctors? Maybe Ramsey just didn’t fancy it? Regardless, Ramsey is offered the sort of benefit of the doubt on here that this forum has never traditionally awarded the less skilful, anglo squad players such as Andrew Crofts, Danny Collins and Paul Dummett. Anyone without an ounce of skill and it’s considered tantamount to heresy that they should bugger Wales about by playing for clubs either side of an international window. Basically, it seems to me be considered an irreplaceable player and you can act like the prodigal son. Ramsey has received stick pretty much every time he's pulled out. Fair point but not in the same depth that others have- this thread is testament to how forgiving people are over his attendance vs, say, James Collins. People really want to give him the benefit of the doubt. Anyway, it’s annoying that I can’t just get Opta on the phone and get them to give me actual facts so seeing as I have no life I’m going to try digging through the stats tonight to see if my memory is playing tricks on me as to Ramsey playing for Arsenal a fair number of times after missing a Wales game. I’m happy to stand corrected if it’s a contrivance on my part but others on this thread seem to have noticed the same thing. |
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Post by texan on Oct 7, 2020 20:16:42 GMT
Juventus have just tweeted.
The ACL have tonight issued the abandonment of isolation at the team hotel. As such Juve have completed their obligations in line with the ACL’s protocols and disbanded the bubble. All players called up for international duty are now free to go and join their sides.
Ramsey can travel as of tonight. Whaddya know...no conspiracy after all!
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Post by insertname on Oct 7, 2020 20:20:09 GMT
Juventus have just tweeted. The ACL have tonight issued the abandonment of isolation at the team hotel. As such Juve have completed their obligations in line with the ACL’s protocols and disbanded the bubble. All players called up for international duty are now free to go and join their sides. Ramsey can travel as of tonight. Whaddya know...no conspiracy after all! No conspiracy perhaps, but for me it still raises the question of why it was so selectively applied. Or maybe selective is the wrong word seeing as local authorities were told of the players who left early, but they were still not stopped and they can’t have been any less contagious than any other player in the squad. Either way what happens tomorrow night if Ramsey can leave today, can he start? If not then we’ve lost out while Portugal have gained. |
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Post by dai on Oct 7, 2020 20:25:12 GMT
Juventus have just tweeted. The ACL have tonight issued the abandonment of isolation at the team hotel. As such Juve have completed their obligations in line with the ACL’s protocols and disbanded the bubble. All players called up for international duty are now free to go and join their sides. Ramsey can travel as of tonight. Whaddya know...no conspiracy after all! If this 'isolation protocol' was such a big deal, then why hasn't there been more uproar after Ronaldo and co left? Those three England players have been left out of the squad and completely hammered by the media for breaking covid rules, but nothing gets said about those players leaving for another country?! And if this 'bubble' existed, why did Juve prepare as normal for the Napoli match? Something really isn't right here. |
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Post by njdragon on Oct 7, 2020 20:34:35 GMT
my argument has never been ramsey has never been committed to wales. The last couple of years i'm not seeing it - look ive followed ramseys career since he was in the 21s. Its disappointing that he's not turning out as frequently now. Just because you don't like it, it doesn't mean it's not true. And just because you think it's true doesn't mean it is - as proven by the points I made in my last post that you just completely ignored? I don't think 8 games played in what will be 22 (after the england match) is purely down to injury |
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Post by iot on Oct 7, 2020 20:49:45 GMT
Ramsey's two years younger than Bale, and whilst both have had injury problems throughout their career, Bale didn't miss a year with a double leg break. With those two factors isn't mind, there isn't a lot between them. Bale doesn’t have the reputation of starting for his club after international games, that’s the big difference for me. With Ramsey there is occasionally a seemingly innocuous tweak or strain that conveniently requires a few days off. We’ve seen it at Juventus (turning out for the under 23s) but mostly at Arsenal Maybe it was Wenger? Maybe it was the FAW’s doctors? Maybe Ramsey just didn’t fancy it? Regardless, Ramsey is offered the sort of benefit of the doubt on here that this forum has never traditionally awarded the less skilful, anglo squad players such as Andrew Crofts, Danny Collins and Paul Dummett. Anyone without an ounce of skill and it’s considered tantamount to heresy that they should bugger Wales about by playing for clubs either side of an international window. Basically, it seems to me be considered an irreplaceable player and you can act like the prodigal son. 'Bale doesn’t have the reputation of starting for his club after international games' Nor should ramsey - the only ones that seem to be trying to create that reputation are a few of you on here. Care to substantiate your claims where ramsey has pulled out of welsh squads only to show up for his club a few days later. As far as I can tell, there has only been the one example of that, and that was with Giggs' blessing. 'Ramsey is offered the sort of benefit of the doubt on here that this forum has never traditionally awarded the less skilful, anglo squad players such as Andrew Crofts, Danny Collins and Paul Dummett.' Bloody hell, people do talk some bollocks on here. Not sure how that statement tallies with the fact Ryan Giggs is the player to have received most stick, by far, for his lack of commitment to Wales. |
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Post by manulike on Oct 7, 2020 21:22:32 GMT
Bale doesn’t have the reputation of starting for his club after international games, that’s the big difference for me. With Ramsey there is occasionally a seemingly innocuous tweak or strain that conveniently requires a few days off. We’ve seen it at Juventus (turning out for the under 23s) but mostly at Arsenal Maybe it was Wenger? Maybe it was the FAW’s doctors? Maybe Ramsey just didn’t fancy it? Regardless, Ramsey is offered the sort of benefit of the doubt on here that this forum has never traditionally awarded the less skilful, anglo squad players such as Andrew Crofts, Danny Collins and Paul Dummett. Anyone without an ounce of skill and it’s considered tantamount to heresy that they should bugger Wales about by playing for clubs either side of an international window. Basically, it seems to me be considered an irreplaceable player and you can act like the prodigal son. 'Bale doesn’t have the reputation of starting for his club after international games' Nor should ramsey - the only ones that seem to be trying to create that reputation are a few of you on here. Care to substantiate your claims where ramsey has pulled out of welsh squads only to show up for his club a few days later. As far as I can tell, there has only been the one example of that, and that was with Giggs' blessing. 'Ramsey is offered the sort of benefit of the doubt on here that this forum has never traditionally awarded the less skilful, anglo squad players such as Andrew Crofts, Danny Collins and Paul Dummett.' Bloody hell, people do talk some bollocks on here. Not sure how that statement tallies with the fact Ryan Giggs is the player to have received most stick, by far, for his lack of commitment to Wales. Finally. A voice of reason on this Forum. Thank you ;-)
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Post by insertname on Oct 7, 2020 21:40:50 GMT
A quick skim through part of the 2010’s reveals :
Bosnia and Cyprus at home in the Euros: Ramsey missed those games but returned from injury for Arsenal the following Saturday.
Ireland friendly in August 2013, missed by Ramsey but he played for Arsenal a few days later.
Finland friendly 2013: Ramsey played for Arsenal either side, no evidence of being subbed due to injury etc yet played no part in that friendly.
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Post by allezlesrouges on Oct 7, 2020 21:43:25 GMT
And just because you think it's true doesn't mean it is - as proven by the points I made in my last post that you just completely ignored? I don't think 8 games played in what will be 22 (after the england match) is purely down to injury You seem to have this feeling that he's missing games with a sinister motive. However, if you want to convince others of the truth of this you need more than just a feeling |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Oct 7, 2020 21:46:01 GMT
A quick skim through part of the 2010’s reveals : Bosnia and Cyprus at home in the Euros: Ramsey missed those games but returned from injury for Arsenal the following Saturday. Ireland friendly in August 2013, missed by Ramsey but he played for Arsenal a few days later. Finland friendly 2013: Ramsey played for Arsenal either side, no evidence of being subbed due to injury etc yet played no part in that friendly. Could it be that those 3 occasions it was bad luck that his injury was a short one which ruled him out of our games but meant he was back in time for his club? |
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Post by insertname on Oct 7, 2020 21:50:52 GMT
A quick skim through part of the 2010’s reveals : Bosnia and Cyprus at home in the Euros: Ramsey missed those games but returned from injury for Arsenal the following Saturday. Ireland friendly in August 2013, missed by Ramsey but he played for Arsenal a few days later. Finland friendly 2013: Ramsey played for Arsenal either side, no evidence of being subbed due to injury etc yet played no part in that friendly. Could it be that those 3 occasions it was bad luck that his injury was a short one which ruled him out of our games but meant he was back in time for his club? Who knows? I’m not going to create a narrative for or against, just simply put up the instances as I find them and then everyone else can decide for themselves what their own narrative is. I confidently predict though that no-ones opinion will change and mental gymnastics will be used to continue to uphold arguments. Such is life on Internet forums! |
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Post by insertname on Oct 7, 2020 22:03:06 GMT
Played the full 90 as Arsenal finished the season by winning the FA cup in 2014, yet was absent when Wales played Holland in an end of season friendly a couple of weeks later
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Post by dai on Oct 7, 2020 22:22:27 GMT
Just for kicks, here are other matches he missed yet turned out for Arsenal after the international break was over;
Euro 2016 Qualifiers : Bosnia 10th, Cyprus 13th October, played for Arsenal on the 18th
Friendly : Wales v Panama - Nov 14 2017, played for Arsenal 4 days afterwards.
China Cup : Didn't feature at all, last game being Uruguay 26th March, yet played for Arsenal on the 1st April. Underwent a 'minor procedure'.
Nations League : Ireland 0 Wales 1 - October 16 2018, played for Arsenal 22nd October
Euro 2020 Qualifier : Wales v Slovakia, 24 March 2019, played for arsenal straight after the international break
Euro 2020 Qualifier : Wales vs Azerbaijan Sept 6, Belarus friendly Sept 9, five days later is in the Juve squad
YES, I AM BORED TONIGHT.
I don't want this thread to turn into a Ramsey bashing thread btw, but you can't deny there has been a pattern here - I noticed long ago there was a tendency to suddenly be fit for club after the international break.
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Post by insertname on Oct 7, 2020 22:27:01 GMT
Just for kicks, here are other matches he missed yet turned out for Arsenal after the international break was over; Euro 2016 Qualifiers : Bosnia 10th, Cyprus 13th October, played for Arsenal on the 18th Friendly : Wales v Panama - Nov 14 2017, played for Arsenal 4 days afterwards. China Cup : Didn't feature at all, last game being Uruguay 26th March, yet played for Arsenal on the 1st April. Underwent a 'minor procedure'. Nations League : Ireland 0 Wales 1 - October 16 2018, played for Arsenal 22nd October Euro 2020 Qualifier : Wales v Slovakia, 24 March 2019, played for arsenal straight after the international break Euro 2020 Qualifier : Wales vs Azerbaijan Sept 6, Belarus friendly Sept 9, five days later is in the Juve squad I don't want this thread to turn into a Ramsey bashing thread btw, but you can't deny there has been a pattern here - I noticed long ago there was a tendency to suddenly be fit for club after the international break.Interesting find. Slap on the wrist for me as I missed those- I thought his record had got better post Euro 2016, but it looks like he has still had a tendency to miss a game here and there whilst appearing for his club after for a while now. Is there any point going back further? |
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Post by insertname on Oct 7, 2020 22:29:47 GMT
So all in all, 10 games missed since 2013 where he has played for Arsenal/Juventus in their next game. Mostly friendlies.
Make your own minds up if there is any significance in that I guess.
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