|
|
Post by allezlesrouges on Mar 25, 2021 17:46:34 GMT
I wouldn't bother. Njdragon has this weird feeling about Ramsey missing internationals on purpose because he hates Wales and loves whatever club he plays for. He doesn't have any facts to corroborate this feeling, he just has a feeling - it's pointless debating him on it
|
|
|
|
Post by dai on Mar 25, 2021 17:54:51 GMT
Rambo 61 caps. Please tell me that’s a wiki mistake. It’s not good. Whatever people think, he's only played 3 out of the last 21 games or something. Extremely poor record for whatever the reasons. |
|
|
|
Post by njdragon on Mar 25, 2021 18:05:07 GMT
I wouldn't bother. Njdragon has this weird feeling about Ramsey missing internationals on purpose because he hates Wales and loves whatever club he plays for. He doesn't have any facts to corroborate this feeling, he just has a feeling - it's pointless debating him on it 2019 season 35 games for Juve and 2 games for Wales 2020 season 26 games for Juve and 1 game for Wales, 61 games fit for juve over 2 season, 3 games fit for wales over 2 years |
|
|
|
Post by CrackityJones on Mar 25, 2021 18:16:20 GMT
Rambo 61 caps. Please tell me that’s a wiki mistake. It’s not good. How many caps has Joe Allen got? |
|
|
|
Post by njdragon on Mar 25, 2021 18:20:05 GMT
Rambo 61 caps. Please tell me that’s a wiki mistake. It’s not good. How many caps has Joe Allen got? How many has Gareth Bale got? 88 and 14 since 2019 |
|
|
|
Post by dai on Mar 25, 2021 18:27:33 GMT
Rambo 61 caps. Please tell me that’s a wiki mistake. It’s not good. How many caps has Joe Allen got? Fair point, although I would argue that Ramsey broke through a few years earlier than Allen At the end of 2011 Ramsey had 20 caps to Allen's 6, so he had a head start. But yeah, both players have quite a low cap count considering their ages. |
|
|
|
Post by njdragon on Mar 25, 2021 18:29:35 GMT
How many caps has Joe Allen got? Fair point, although I would argue that Ramsey broke through a few years earlier than Allen and looking at wiki. At the end of 2011 Ramsey had 20 caps to Allen's 6, so he had a head start. But yeah, both players have quite a low cap count considering their ages. you're right Allen took a while to come through for Wales |
|
|
|
Post by CrackityJones on Mar 25, 2021 18:38:29 GMT
Difference being Allen’s low cap count due to injuries isn’t used as a stick to beat him with by the QAnon crowd.
|
|
|
|
Post by njdragon on Mar 25, 2021 18:45:44 GMT
Difference being Allen’s low cap count due to injuries isn’t used as a stick to beat him with by the QAnon crowd. Allen still has 9 caps since 2019 despite a serious injury ruling him out for a year Ramsey 3 caps |
|
|
|
Post by CrackityJones on Mar 25, 2021 18:49:32 GMT
Difference being Allen’s low cap count due to injuries isn’t used as a stick to beat him with by the QAnon crowd. Allen still has 9 caps since 2019 despite a serious injury ruling him out for a year Ramsey 3 caps Yep and Ramsey had a series of injuries and will probably continue to for the rest of his career unfortunately, could be something to do with the serious leg break earlier in his career. Whats your point? |
|
|
|
Post by allezlesrouges on Mar 25, 2021 19:02:05 GMT
I wouldn't bother. Njdragon has this weird feeling about Ramsey missing internationals on purpose because he hates Wales and loves whatever club he plays for. He doesn't have any facts to corroborate this feeling, he just has a feeling - it's pointless debating him on it 2019 season 35 games for Juve and 2 games for Wales 2020 season 26 games for Juve and 1 game for Wales, 61 games fit for juve over 2 season, 3 games fit for wales over 2 years 1) That doesn't prove your point 2) Your stats are wrong. Ramsey played 14 times for Juventus in 2019, and 2 times for us. He played 35 times in 2020 for Juventus and 1 time for us. In total, 49 games for Juventus across those two years, and 3 for us. When you look at the accurate stats across these two years it's clear he is playing roughly 20-30% of games for both us & Juventus. Not that much difference 3) Even if he were missing proportionately more games for us than Juventus, you still haven't proved it is for any reason other than bad luck. So once again back to my.main point - you have nothing to back up your feelings. You just have a nefarious feeling there's a conspiracy and you can't point towards a reason why |
|
|
|
Post by njdragon on Mar 25, 2021 19:02:13 GMT
Allen still has 9 caps since 2019 despite a serious injury ruling him out for a year Ramsey 3 caps Yep and Ramsey had a series of injuries and will probably continue to for the rest of his career unfortunately, could be something to do with the serious leg break earlier in his career. Whats your point? is it though? muscle injuries have ruled him out recently nothing more. point is ramsey had no serious injuries in the last 2 years whereas allen has |
|
|
|
Post by njdragon on Mar 25, 2021 19:07:45 GMT
2019 season 35 games for Juve and 2 games for Wales 2020 season 26 games for Juve and 1 game for Wales, 61 games fit for juve over 2 season, 3 games fit for wales over 2 years 1) That doesn't prove your point 2) Your stats are wrong. Ramsey played 14 times for Juventus in 2019, and 2 times for us. He played 35 times in 2020 for Juventus and 1 time for us. In total, 49 games for Juventus across those two years, and 3 for us. When you look at the accurate stats across these two years it's clear he is playing roughly 20-30% of games for both us & Juventus. Not that much difference 3) Even if he were missing proportionately more games for us than Juventus, you still haven't proved it is for any reason other than bad luck. So once again back to my.main point - you have nothing to back up your feelings. You just have a nefarious feeling there's a conspiracy and you can't point towards a reason why i said 2019 season read the argument before you pick holes 61 games he has played since 2019-2021 3 games for wales 2019-2021 I can't prove anything (if he was injured or not) and neither can you prove the opposite. Its my opinion based on the games he's missed for us vs played for his club. can you point towards a convincing reason why he's missing so many Wales games? Managers have history of resting players during international breaks. |
|
|
|
Post by CrackityJones on Mar 25, 2021 19:08:00 GMT
Yep and Ramsey had a series of injuries and will probably continue to for the rest of his career unfortunately, could be something to do with the serious leg break earlier in his career. Whats your point? is it though? muscle injuries have ruled him out recently nothing more. point is ramsey had no serious injuries in the last 2 years whereas allen has Ramsey has been injured in that period according to his clubs medical staff and ours, or are they all involved in this conspiracy to prevent him from playing for us? |
|
|
|
Post by quetzal on Mar 25, 2021 19:37:37 GMT
125 caps for NI’s Steven Davis tonight. Puts a lot of Welsh players to shame.
|
|
|
|
Post by welshiron on Mar 25, 2021 19:47:28 GMT
Why on the Ramsey thread 😕
|
|
|
|
Post by CrackityJones on Mar 25, 2021 19:49:36 GMT
125 caps for NI’s Steven Davis tonight. Puts a lot of Welsh players to shame. Shame? What the shame of having your leg broken in a shit tackle or the shame of tearing your ACL? |
|
|
|
Post by marsvolta on Mar 25, 2021 19:56:11 GMT
1) That doesn't prove your point 2) Your stats are wrong. Ramsey played 14 times for Juventus in 2019, and 2 times for us. He played 35 times in 2020 for Juventus and 1 time for us. In total, 49 games for Juventus across those two years, and 3 for us. When you look at the accurate stats across these two years it's clear he is playing roughly 20-30% of games for both us & Juventus. Not that much difference 3) Even if he were missing proportionately more games for us than Juventus, you still haven't proved it is for any reason other than bad luck. So once again back to my.main point - you have nothing to back up your feelings. You just have a nefarious feeling there's a conspiracy and you can't point towards a reason why i said 2019 season read the argument before you pick holes 61 games he has played since 2019-2021 3 games for wales 2019-2021 I can't prove anything (if he was injured or not) and neither can you prove the opposite. Its my opinion based on the games he's missed for us vs played for his club. can you point towards a convincing reason why he's missing so many Wales games? Managers have history of resting players during international breaks. I think you’re over estimating Ramsey’s importance to Juventus. If they had to pick a player to fake injuries to rest in the international break I’m not sure Ramsey would be top of the list. I think a certain player would be missing Portugal games for a start. |
|
|
|
Post by marsvolta on Mar 25, 2021 20:00:08 GMT
Also, I’m pretty sure Ramsey has only played about 20 odd games for Juventis in the last year.
Not sure how many games Juventus played last year but it means he’s missed a load of Juve games as well.
|
|
|
|
Post by njdragon on Mar 25, 2021 20:05:27 GMT
i said 2019 season read the argument before you pick holes 61 games he has played since 2019-2021 3 games for wales 2019-2021 I can't prove anything (if he was injured or not) and neither can you prove the opposite. Its my opinion based on the games he's missed for us vs played for his club. can you point towards a convincing reason why he's missing so many Wales games? Managers have history of resting players during international breaks. I think you’re over estimating Ramsey’s importance to Juventus. If they had to pick a player to fake injuries to rest in the international break I’m not sure Ramsey would be top of the list. I think a certain player would be missing Portugal games for a start. Maybe that’s the point, Ramsey can’t take his place for granted in the juve side but Ronaldo can. Hence Rambo not risking wales. |
|
|
|
Post by njdragon on Mar 25, 2021 20:06:12 GMT
Also, I’m pretty sure Ramsey has only played about 20 odd games for Juventis in the last year. Not sure how many games Juventus played last year but it means he’s missed a load of Juve games as well. Nah he’s played a lot more it’s on wiki |
|
|
|
Post by insertname on Mar 25, 2021 20:10:31 GMT
Whatever the ins and outs (and I agree that it’s a reach to suggest conspiracy theories when he misses games for Juventus prior to an international) he rarely if ever plays for Wales these days so I don’t understand why people even say “we were missing Ramsey”, we’re always missing Ramsey. Life always loves throwing up talking points and Ramsey being fit for the finals despite being made of glass before hand is so nailed on you could put your house on it. You can’t not pick him when he was missing Juventus games around internationals but at the same time I’ll feel for any player (mostly Wilson) who did the hard yards the rest of the time for Ramsey to turn up for the glory day against Hungary and the finals themselves which could have been a great shop window for Wilson. After the Euros I’ll be somewhat surprised if Ramsey doesn’t announce his retirement from international football. It can’t be long in coming considering the money he is earning and his injury record. Juventus will be wanting him to commit fully to them, no doubt. I'm curious what you mean exactly by that? Are you saying that Ramsey somehow 'chooses' when to be injured and when to be fit? I’m talking about the inverse of Sod’s law- after all the ciriticism of his injuries he’ll defy the odds and be fit for the Euros and it will be good for the country but someone is going to miss out to accommodate Ramsey coming back in and I’ll be sparing a thought for them. Just to add I’m not suggesting any conspiracy theory stuff here by the way, I have taken a sceptical view of the times he’s played after an international but a poster did a good dissection of why that might have been legit and I doubt for the money Juve is paying him that they would want him to fake an injury and miss a couple of games for them just for the “greater cause” of protecting him from international duty. |
|
|
|
Post by allezlesrouges on Mar 25, 2021 20:59:33 GMT
1) That doesn't prove your point 2) Your stats are wrong. Ramsey played 14 times for Juventus in 2019, and 2 times for us. He played 35 times in 2020 for Juventus and 1 time for us. In total, 49 games for Juventus across those two years, and 3 for us. When you look at the accurate stats across these two years it's clear he is playing roughly 20-30% of games for both us & Juventus. Not that much difference 3) Even if he were missing proportionately more games for us than Juventus, you still haven't proved it is for any reason other than bad luck. So once again back to my.main point - you have nothing to back up your feelings. You just have a nefarious feeling there's a conspiracy and you can't point towards a reason why i said 2019 season read the argument before you pick holes 61 games he has played since 2019-2021 3 games for wales 2019-2021 I can't prove anything (if he was injured or not) and neither can you prove the opposite. Its my opinion based on the games he's missed for us vs played for his club. can you point towards a convincing reason why he's missing so many Wales games? Managers have history of resting players during international breaks. There's no such thing as a 2019 season. It's 2019-20. International appearances you quoted were year by year not a season by season, which if you now think about it I'm sure you will realise cannot be compared directly. So I corrected you on that one to ensure you were also quoting yearly club appearances I'm going to teach you something. When you don't have evidence either way for something, the default position is neutrality. This is how epistemology works. For example, if you were asked "what colour is the sky?" but you had no evidence of what the answer was, the correct response is "I don't know". The incorrect response is "it's pink because I think so, and until anyone provides proof otherwise I'm going to believe it's pink". This is called bias. Unless you have proof Ramsey is intentionally missing games all you have is a wild guess with nothing backing it up Here's a convincing reason why he's missing games for us - it's a coincidence. I'm sorry that's not as interesting as there being a grand conspiracy, but it's the neutral position when you have no other information either way However, we actually do have evidence against your position. If you are correct, then you are also stating that Juventus are complicit in fabricating these injuries, and are so committed to this that they are willing to let Ramsey miss multiple games for them. Ramsey missed the two games leading into this international break - if you are correct you are saying Juventus prevented Ramsey from playing in these games for no reason other than to block him playing 2 international fixtures I've never heard such nonsense in my life |
|
|
|
Post by njdragon on Mar 25, 2021 23:02:05 GMT
i said 2019 season read the argument before you pick holes 61 games he has played since 2019-2021 3 games for wales 2019-2021 I can't prove anything (if he was injured or not) and neither can you prove the opposite. Its my opinion based on the games he's missed for us vs played for his club. can you point towards a convincing reason why he's missing so many Wales games? Managers have history of resting players during international breaks. There's no such thing as a 2019 season. It's 2019-20. International appearances you quoted were year by year not a season by season, which if you now think about it I'm sure you will realise cannot be compared directly. So I corrected you on that one to ensure you were also quoting yearly club appearances I'm going to teach you something. When you don't have evidence either way for something, the default position is neutrality. This is how epistemology works. For example, if you were asked "what colour is the sky?" but you had no evidence of what the answer was, the correct response is "I don't know". The incorrect response is "it's pink because I think so, and until anyone provides proof otherwise I'm going to believe it's pink". This is called bias. Unless you have proof Ramsey is intentionally missing games all you have is a wild guess with nothing backing it up Here's a convincing reason why he's missing games for us - it's a coincidence. I'm sorry that's not as interesting as there being a grand conspiracy, but it's the neutral position when you have no other information either way However, we actually do have evidence against your position. If you are correct, then you are also stating that Juventus are complicit in fabricating these injuries, and are so committed to this that they are willing to let Ramsey miss multiple games for them. Ramsey missed the two games leading into this international break - if you are correct you are saying Juventus prevented Ramsey from playing in these games for no reason other than to block him playing 2 international fixtures I've never heard such nonsense in my life So: From sept 2019-March 2021 Ramsey has played 61 games for juventus From January 2019-March 2021 Ramsey had played 3 international matches Thanks for strengthening my argument there. You have no evidence you have word of mouth. The press via a source from juventus. No evidence from wales and as far as I know didn’t turn up to be assessed. Also recent pull outs have been injuries not shown up on scans and ‘personal reasons’ And lastly I can hold an opinion on something, this isn’t science. It’s opinion. |
|
|
|
Post by insertname on Mar 25, 2021 23:25:58 GMT
The same arguments were probably made in defence of Giggs back in the day, I recall a poster on here in fact many years ago telling me that players NEVER skip international duty. It’s just not a thing. A couple of years later Giggs brings his book out and admits that he was leant on to not turn up for certain games for Wales. There’s damning evidence out there about Ollie McBurnie as another example. So it does happen, undoubtedly. Giggs is probably not the first and certainly is absolutely not the last. It’s just a hard thing to prove categorically without the player in question coming out and admitting it.
WRT Ramsey would a club play a complicated ruse involving missing fixtures for the sake of a small country with little FIFA clout? Whilst I can very well believe that it’s possible they saw a short term ruse as better than a long term injury on international duty considering how much they are paying him is it likely? Most likely not. Why would Juventus pander round Wales? Surely they would just lean on Ramsey after he played those fixtures and tell him not to go.
|
|
|
|
Post by njdragon on Mar 25, 2021 23:35:01 GMT
The same arguments were probably made in defence of Giggs back in the day, I recall a poster on here in fact many years ago telling me that players NEVER skip international duty. It’s just not a thing. A couple of years later Giggs brings his book out and admits that he was leant on to not turn up for certain games for Wales. There’s damning evidence out there about Ollie McBurnie as another example. So it does happen, undoubtedly. Giggs is probably not the first and certainly is absolutely not the last. It’s just a hard thing to prove categorically without the player in question coming out and admitting it. WRT Ramsey would a club play a complicated ruse involving missing fixtures for the sake of a small country with little FIFA clout? Whilst I can very well believe that it’s possible they saw a short term ruse as better than a long term injury on international duty considering how much they are paying him is it likely? Most likely not. Why would Juventus pander round Wales? Surely they would just lean on Ramsey after he played those fixtures and tell him not to go. Yeh it makes you wonder what would it be like if we had these boards during the giggs era. Prob the same conversations. I don’t necessarily think It’s the club pulling the strings here but maybe Ramsey more concerned with his fitness and keeping his place at juventus. It’s difficult to make a case for him being committed to wales right now. |
|
|
|
Post by marsvolta on Mar 25, 2021 23:37:42 GMT
There's no such thing as a 2019 season. It's 2019-20. International appearances you quoted were year by year not a season by season, which if you now think about it I'm sure you will realise cannot be compared directly. So I corrected you on that one to ensure you were also quoting yearly club appearances I'm going to teach you something. When you don't have evidence either way for something, the default position is neutrality. This is how epistemology works. For example, if you were asked "what colour is the sky?" but you had no evidence of what the answer was, the correct response is "I don't know". The incorrect response is "it's pink because I think so, and until anyone provides proof otherwise I'm going to believe it's pink". This is called bias. Unless you have proof Ramsey is intentionally missing games all you have is a wild guess with nothing backing it up Here's a convincing reason why he's missing games for us - it's a coincidence. I'm sorry that's not as interesting as there being a grand conspiracy, but it's the neutral position when you have no other information either way However, we actually do have evidence against your position. If you are correct, then you are also stating that Juventus are complicit in fabricating these injuries, and are so committed to this that they are willing to let Ramsey miss multiple games for them. Ramsey missed the two games leading into this international break - if you are correct you are saying Juventus prevented Ramsey from playing in these games for no reason other than to block him playing 2 international fixtures I've never heard such nonsense in my life So: From sept 2019-March 2021 Ramsey has played 61 games for juventus From January 2019-March 2021 Ramsey had played 3 international matches Thanks for strengthening my argument there. You have no evidence you have word of mouth. The press via a source from juventus. No evidence from wales and as far as I know didn’t turn up to be assessed. Also recent pull outs have been injuries not shown up on scans and ‘personal reasons’ And lastly I can hold an opinion on something, this isn’t science. It’s opinion. We know how many games he played for Juventus but do we know how many he missed? It’s all very well saying that he played 61 games in the 18 or so months from September 2019-March 2021 but for all we know, Juventus could have had 120 matches in that time and he missed about 60 of them (and please, no one say that he only missed those Juventus games to add credibility to his plan to miss Wales games) |
|
|
|
Post by njdragon on Mar 25, 2021 23:45:33 GMT
So: From sept 2019-March 2021 Ramsey has played 61 games for juventus From January 2019-March 2021 Ramsey had played 3 international matches Thanks for strengthening my argument there. You have no evidence you have word of mouth. The press via a source from juventus. No evidence from wales and as far as I know didn’t turn up to be assessed. Also recent pull outs have been injuries not shown up on scans and ‘personal reasons’ And lastly I can hold an opinion on something, this isn’t science. It’s opinion. We know how many games he played for Juventus but do we know how many he missed? It’s all very well saying that he played 61 games in the 18 or so months from September 2019-March 2021 but for all we know, Juventus could have had 120 matches in that time and he missed about 60 of them (and please, no one say that he only missed those Juventus games to add credibility to his plan to miss Wales games) Well it doesn’t take a genius to work out he played the majority of games does it. 61 games in 2 seasons is a good return for someone who is injured most international matches. |
|
|
|
Post by quetzal on Mar 26, 2021 1:24:41 GMT
But just to make it clear. I’m a huge Aaron Ramsey fan. I have a video with my kids crossing the Severn Bridge in my hire car on the way back from Euros singing ‘Aaron Ramsey baby’(Human league-Don’t you want me). Pure joy! Just the overall picture he has dodged around 10-15 games. Rushie and Hughes dodged more. Don’t mention Giggs. Doesn’t mean I like it though.
|
|
|
|
Post by marsvolta on Mar 26, 2021 6:32:53 GMT
We know how many games he played for Juventus but do we know how many he missed? It’s all very well saying that he played 61 games in the 18 or so months from September 2019-March 2021 but for all we know, Juventus could have had 120 matches in that time and he missed about 60 of them (and please, no one say that he only missed those Juventus games to add credibility to his plan to miss Wales games) Well it doesn’t take a genius to work out he played the majority of games does it. 61 games in 2 seasons is a good return for someone who is injured most international matches. Not really. Not sure how many games in the Italian league but it’s surely 30+ per season, add in two seasons of cup games and champions league and I’d say that 61 games in total means he’s missed a fair few Juve games too. |
|
