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Post by marsvolta on Sept 7, 2021 7:16:24 GMT
The question all of Ramsey’s detractors don’t really answer is if he really doesn’t want to play for Wales anymore, why doesn’t he just retire from international football?
It would be a lot easier than faking injuries 6 or 7 times a year, even to the point of missing Juventus games to add credibility to the facade.
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Post by njdragon on Sept 7, 2021 7:20:06 GMT
The question all of Ramsey’s detractors don’t really answer is if he really doesn’t want to play for Wales anymore, why doesn’t he just retire from international football? It would be a lot easier than faking injuries 6 or 7 times a year, even to the point of missing Juventus games to add credibility to the facade. because he wants to play tournaments like every other world class footballer! i think this is the pinnacle for a lot of players im not sure if its him not wanting to play or the club stopping him or having a quiet word. The wages they pay him prob doesn't help as pressure for him not to play internationals with a chance of getting inured. |
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Post by marsvolta on Sept 7, 2021 7:50:03 GMT
The question all of Ramsey’s detractors don’t really answer is if he really doesn’t want to play for Wales anymore, why doesn’t he just retire from international football? It would be a lot easier than faking injuries 6 or 7 times a year, even to the point of missing Juventus games to add credibility to the facade. because he wants to play tournaments like every other world class footballer! i think this is the pinnacle for a lot of players im not sure if its him not wanting to play or the club stopping him or having a quiet word. The wages they pay him prob doesn't help as pressure for him not to play internationals with a chance of getting inured. Do Juventus apply this pressure to every international player they have? Or just Ramsey? |
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Post by njdragon on Sept 7, 2021 8:10:33 GMT
because he wants to play tournaments like every other world class footballer! i think this is the pinnacle for a lot of players im not sure if its him not wanting to play or the club stopping him or having a quiet word. The wages they pay him prob doesn't help as pressure for him not to play internationals with a chance of getting inured. Do Juventus apply this pressure to every international player they have? Or just Ramsey? I don't know, look im trying to meet you in the middle here. It's either huge co-incidence he's almost always inured for internationals or more likely i think the club are putting pressure on him to not play. We know this happens. He's a massive loss to us and its a source of frustration as he's a great player |
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Post by marsvolta on Sept 7, 2021 8:18:08 GMT
Do Juventus apply this pressure to every international player they have? Or just Ramsey? I don't know, look im trying to meet you in the middle here. It's either huge co-incidence he's almost always inured for internationals or more likely i think the club are putting pressure on him to not play. We know this happens. He's a massive loss to us and its a source of frustration as he's a great player I get that, it’s just that it would be strange for Juventus to single out one player to stop playing international football when they have a full squad of players who play international football all over the world. |
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Post by iot on Sept 7, 2021 8:38:14 GMT
Fair enough, I remembered him being originally out of the ireland game only to come back in - i thought it was because of injury, but you're right it was covid related. And you're right, they were two different international windows - doh! I hold my hands up, had a 'mare there - that'll teach me from rushing my comments in defence of our Rambo! haha none of us know though i suppose, he could well be injured! Think the one thing we can all agree on is that we miss him in a welsh shirt - he is a fantastic player He definitely is injured. I don't think there's ever been an occasion where he's been completely injury free and decided to avoid joining up with the squad. I maintain it's completely absurd to think he is colluding with Juventus to miss a club game or two before each international window in order to give him an excuse to miss an international game. But what I will concede, and have said on a couple of times on this matter, is that there probably have been occasions where he could play through injury but decided not to risk it. I think he loves playing for Wales and is desperate to do so, but he's accepted that his injury record and his precarious position at Juve which doesn't give him any leverage (fans and the club are understandably frustrated by his form and fitness issues considering he's one of their highest earners and he's far from guaranteed a starting spot) - all of this means he has to weigh up whether to take the risk of playing through injury for us. So if it's a nations league double header where he's carrying a knock, he might have decided not to risk it, whereas if it's the euros or a crucial qualifier, he's decided to take the risk. One of my frustrations is that people talk about this in such black and white terms - he's either injured or not, and skipping games when fit or missing games because he's injured. There's a massive amount of grey area in between - listen to any footballer talk about their careers and they will talk about how they would always carry little knocks - so it isn't a binary injured / not injured issue. With some footballers, those little injury concerns pose more of a threat than others. If it's a muscle / ligament issues - the type of ones that have dogged Ramsey's entire career and means he hasn't gone through one season without being injured for at least 20-30% of it, then it's a bigger concern. With that Ireland game - he played it, then it was announced he'd picked up a knock and so he missed the game against Bulgaria before retuning in Juve's crucial champions league tie. I don't think any of that is untrue, I think all parties would have agreed it wasn't worth risking him in that nations league game, whereas if it was a crucial qualifier, he probably would have played through his injury. So it's been a mix of losing games to not risk aggravating injuries, and losing other games through more serious injuries. I suspect with qualifiers, such as this current window, it's the latter. We know he wasn't fit enough to play in Juve's last game, so I have no problem believing he wasn't fit enough to play against Belarus. He then had a scan shortly after the Belarus game. After seeing the shitshow that was the Belarus game, I'm confident that he would have retuned for tomorrow's game if he could, so I'm also confident that the scan would have revealed his ligament damage had not healed enough for him to take a risk, even. That's my judgement and everyone else will make their own. |
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Post by njdragon on Sept 7, 2021 8:38:34 GMT
I don't know, look im trying to meet you in the middle here. It's either huge co-incidence he's almost always inured for internationals or more likely i think the club are putting pressure on him to not play. We know this happens. He's a massive loss to us and its a source of frustration as he's a great player I get that, it’s just that it would be strange for Juventus to single out one player to stop playing international football when they have a full squad of players who play international football all over he world. Yes i know but if you look at that england game with the covid bubble - most Juve international players still went out to play for their teams but Ramsey didnt join us. I think he did at the end of some isolation period. Was he right to do so probably, but maybe those others (ronaldo was one) carried more weight in the side to be able to force that... I know he got Covid later btw |
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Post by rangers15 on Sept 7, 2021 8:40:57 GMT
devils advocate - maybe Juve are putting a bit of pressure on Rambo as he is so injury prone and when with wales he'll generally play 90 mins all action.
Also, Aaron is injury prone as we all know, thus a bit part player ... its something we have to be used to now especially as gets older. but i dont believe for a second him coming back into the squad causes upset to other players. it'll more likely be a boost that we have one of our genuinely world class players available.
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Post by iot on Sept 7, 2021 8:45:53 GMT
You're mistaken - the situation you describe would never happen did, in fact, happen last year in the Ireland away fixture. Rambo was ruled out initially with an injury and missed a game for Juve, but then came back earlier than expected and flew over to join the squad once he proved his fitness: www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/wales-hit-fresh-blow-aaron-19228035www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54479348 But that doesn't fit the narrative. It also shows up some of the amateur detective nonsense that comes up here. And spare me the faux outrage about the unfairness of him coming back in instead of Wilson or Jonny when he regains his fitness, it's so irritating. It might not be faux outrage, but surely we at the point now where Ramsey's absence (and reappearance) is having an effect on the team? If a player had put in the hard yards in only to get dropped because Ramsey was available, surely it would effect their morale and even their performance? Which would then affect the morale of others? And then to see that he walks back straight back into the team and give a poor (by his standards) performance? Surely all this changing team / system to accommodate Ramsey, has an impact on the fluidity of the team? Nah, I don't buy that at all I'm afraid. As rangers15 says above, to see one of your few genuine top level players coming back in is far more likely to be a boost and raise morale than affect it adversely. I guess it partly depends on how precious you are as an individual, but they all are clearly desperate for Wales to do well and know that having Rambo involved gives us a far better chance. |
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Post by johnoster on Sept 7, 2021 9:27:05 GMT
Maybe the others have got better injury records?
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Post by insertname on Sept 7, 2021 12:07:29 GMT
I don't know, look im trying to meet you in the middle here. It's either huge co-incidence he's almost always inured for internationals or more likely i think the club are putting pressure on him to not play. We know this happens. He's a massive loss to us and its a source of frustration as he's a great player I get that, it’s just that it would be strange for Juventus to single out one player to stop playing international football when they have a full squad of players who play international football all over he world. Theoretically not so in Ramsey’s case- he has a patchy injury record as it is and he is their third highest earner in a deal that has made them look a bit daft to their fans because they have basically paid him his transfer fee making him one of the world’s best players in the process and yet he hasn’t really produced for them. They will look even more daft if he picks up a serious injury on international duty when they knew how potentially injury prone he was before hand. I shall stress again that for me, the whole thing is just really really odd that he can miss qualifiers with such metronomic regularity and yet play in the biggest show piece occasions v Hungary and then have literally no injury concerns staying fit for 4 consecutive games in a month for the Euros. Never mind any crackpot conspiracy theories, to me, that in and of itself just feels too contrived to be complete chance. |
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Post by iot on Sept 7, 2021 12:48:29 GMT
I get that, it’s just that it would be strange for Juventus to single out one player to stop playing international football when they have a full squad of players who play international football all over he world. Theoretically not so in Ramsey’s case- he has a patchy injury record as it is and he is their third highest earner in a deal that has made them look a bit daft to their fans because they have basically paid him his transfer fee making him one of the world’s best players in the process and yet he hasn’t really produced for them. They will look even more daft if he picks up a serious injury on international duty when they knew how potentially injury prone he was before hand. I shall stress again that for me, the whole thing is just really really odd that he can miss qualifiers with such metronomic regularity and yet play in the biggest show piece occasions v Hungary and then have literally no injury concerns staying fit for 4 consecutive games in a month for the Euros. Never mind any crackpot conspiracy theories, to me, that in and of itself just feels too contrived to be complete chance. It's not odd at all, the reasons are obvious and it's precisely the point I was making in my previous comment. |
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Post by dai on Sept 7, 2021 12:56:57 GMT
Judging by how ineffective he was during the Euro's, I'd say he was playing through injury, so you could argue that other players should have taken his spot, or at least played a bigger part. Why not play through niggles for our qualifiers?
Turkey game doesn't count because every other team in the competition would have beaten Turkey during the summer.
Regardless how your opinion on him, you can't blame people for questioning all this. It could be genuine, off the scale odds of injuries each time - be it minor or serious, or it could be clever game management to support his club career.
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Post by iot on Sept 7, 2021 13:19:45 GMT
Judging by how ineffective he was during the Euro's, I'd say he was playing through injury, so you could argue that other players should have taken his spot, or at least played a bigger part. Why not play through niggles for our qualifiers? Turkey game doesn't count because every other team in the competition would have beaten Turkey during the summer. Regardless how your opinion on him, you can't blame people for questioning all this. It could be genuine, off the scale odds of injuries each time - be it minor or serious, or it could be clever game management to support his club career. I think that's slightly unfair, we can't dismiss how incredible he was against Turkey. Yes he was fairly ineffective in the other games, but if you think back to how those games were played out, was it really his fault? He was playing in an advanced position, and yet we couldn't get the ball to him. I'm not sure what we could expect from him in that scenario. Bale struggled for much the same reason and I have no doubt had it been Wilson or Brooks in his place, they would have had no more impact. There was clear evidence of that in the Denmark game, with both coming on with a fair chunk of the game remaining and yet failing to have an impact. I think you're showing some serious misunderstanding of the realities in football if you think a player like Ramsey experiencing loads of niggly injuries throughout the season represents "off the scale odds" |
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Post by insertname on Sept 7, 2021 13:46:32 GMT
Judging by how ineffective he was during the Euro's, I'd say he was playing through injury, so you could argue that other players should have taken his spot, or at least played a bigger part. Why not play through niggles for our qualifiers? Turkey game doesn't count because every other team in the competition would have beaten Turkey during the summer. Regardless how your opinion on him, you can't blame people for questioning all this. It could be genuine, off the scale odds of injuries each time - be it minor or serious, or it could be clever game management to support his club career. I think that's slightly unfair, we can't dismiss how incredible he was against Turkey. Yes he was fairly ineffective in the other games, but if you think back to how those games were played out, was it really his fault? He was playing in an advanced position, and yet we couldn't get the ball to him. I'm not sure what we could expect from him in that scenario. Bale struggled for much the same reason and I have no doubt had it been Wilson or Brooks in his place, they would have had no more impact. There was clear evidence of that in the Denmark game, with both coming on with a fair chunk of the game remaining and yet failing to have an impact. I think you're showing some serious misunderstanding of the realities in football if you think a player like Ramsey experiencing loads of niggly injuries throughout the season represents "off the scale odds" And yet despite all those persistent niggling injuries he manages to play 4 games in the space of ~16 days in a prestigious tournament no problem. That’s some kind of luck isn’t it? To put that even more into context it took him til November to play 4 international games in his last season at Arsenal yet he didn’t reach that milestone til the Euros at the end of his second season whilst with Juventus and yet managed to play 4 games on the spin no problem and everyone’s all like “yeah nothing to see here” 😂 Either way, given his previous attendance form would you bet against him being fit for the Belgium game if there is automatic qualification at stake? |
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Post by marsvolta on Sept 7, 2021 13:49:34 GMT
This thread is going round and round in circles (and he been for months).
We’ve got a game tomorrow,lads.
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Post by insertname on Sept 7, 2021 13:53:52 GMT
This thread is going round and round in circles (and he been for months). We’ve got a game tomorrow,lads. Which in itself is testament to how contrived the situation looks. If it wasn’t so consistent we’d all have something else to talk about. I know, let’s move the conversation on by talking about how he’s not fit for the next double header, because based on previous form it’s odds on he’s not going to be. Might as well get a head start on that discussion now….. |
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Post by iot on Sept 7, 2021 13:59:50 GMT
I think that's slightly unfair, we can't dismiss how incredible he was against Turkey. Yes he was fairly ineffective in the other games, but if you think back to how those games were played out, was it really his fault? He was playing in an advanced position, and yet we couldn't get the ball to him. I'm not sure what we could expect from him in that scenario. Bale struggled for much the same reason and I have no doubt had it been Wilson or Brooks in his place, they would have had no more impact. There was clear evidence of that in the Denmark game, with both coming on with a fair chunk of the game remaining and yet failing to have an impact. I think you're showing some serious misunderstanding of the realities in football if you think a player like Ramsey experiencing loads of niggly injuries throughout the season represents "off the scale odds" And yet despite all those persistent niggling injuries he manages to play 4 games in the space of ~16 days in a prestigious tournament no problem. That’s some kind of luck isn’t it? To put that even more into context it took him til November to play 4 international games in his last season at Arsenal yet he didn’t reach that milestone til the Euros at the end of his second season whilst with Juventus and yet managed to play 4 games on the spin no problem and everyone’s all like “yeah nothing to see here” 😂 Either way, given his previous attendance form would you bet against him being fit for the Belgium game if there is automatic qualification at stake? "And yet despite all those persistent niggling injuries he manages to play 4 games in the space of ~16 days in a prestigious tournament no problem. That’s some kind of luck isn’t it?" No it isn't. The whole point I'm trying to make is that he will always have niggles - most footballers do, but it's an even bigger issue for Ramsey because of the type of injuries he suffers from and the recurrences he gets. Because of that, he has to weigh up whether to play through the injury or not. During the euros he's taken more of a risk and thus played more, whereas in nations league games he may have decided not to take certain risks. So it's not a matter of luck, it's calculated. But the accusations of him feigning injuries are completely false. |
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Post by iot on Sept 7, 2021 14:06:00 GMT
This thread is going round and round in circles (and he been for months). We’ve got a game tomorrow,lads. I know, sorry I'm largely at fault. Just feels like I'm trying to make a fairly basic point which appears to fly over some people's heads (probably deliberately). It's so frustrating, there's just no logic to some people's thought processes. We know he's a real passionate Welshman, I could spend some time demonstrating that but won't. We know he loves representing Wales. There is no chance that he's trying to avoid Wales games because he can't be arsed. So if you accept that, then you have to accept it is fitness concerns that are preventing him from playing more often. Anyway, that's the last comment I'll make on this, we could all probably do with not dragging it out further. |
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Post by insertname on Sept 7, 2021 14:27:22 GMT
And yet despite all those persistent niggling injuries he manages to play 4 games in the space of ~16 days in a prestigious tournament no problem. That’s some kind of luck isn’t it? To put that even more into context it took him til November to play 4 international games in his last season at Arsenal yet he didn’t reach that milestone til the Euros at the end of his second season whilst with Juventus and yet managed to play 4 games on the spin no problem and everyone’s all like “yeah nothing to see here” 😂 Either way, given his previous attendance form would you bet against him being fit for the Belgium game if there is automatic qualification at stake? "And yet despite all those persistent niggling injuries he manages to play 4 games in the space of ~16 days in a prestigious tournament no problem. That’s some kind of luck isn’t it?" No it isn't. The whole point I'm trying to make is that he will always have niggles - most footballers do, but it's an even bigger issue for Ramsey because of the type of injuries he suffers from and the recurrences he gets. Because of that, he has to weigh up whether to play through the injury or not. During the euros he's taken more of a risk and thus played more, whereas in nations league games he may have decided not to take certain risks. So it's not a matter of luck, it's calculated. But the accusations of him feigning injuries are completely false. We are actually on the same page here because that’s what I’m getting at And and what you have just verbalised- that it’s not random, it’s a pattern, eg it’s (in your words) “calculated”. Not that there is outright feigning of injuries going on but that there is a psychological element to it that means he is able to turn up but only when the player feels like it’s worth the effort of climbing off the treatment table essentially. Even in those conditions it’s something that doesn’t really sit right with me, to be honest. It’s leveraging your importance to the team to know you can miss the hard yards but have the benefit of knowing you will start come what may when you target the biggest games to play through the niggles. Would Ramsey miss so many qualifiers if his starting place was genuinely under threat? As for the faux outrage I can assure you there is nothing faux about it, it’s genuine. If it wasn’t for the likes of Williams scoring against The Czechs and turning the game around vs Belarus there won’t be any shop window in the first place in Qatar for players to come waltzing in to the starting line up like the prodigal son. You sound perfectly okay with that because all you care about is being able to play the best players in the big games without a seconds thought to anything else. That’s your prerogative. Personally I think I would rather stick by the players who have been the more useful servant to the cause by being there when the chips were really down and dragging us through to the glory games. Eg if I was the manager of Sweden when Ibrahimovic came out of retirement for the Euros I would have told him to piss off. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2021 15:33:12 GMT
On and on and on.
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Post by iot on Sept 7, 2021 19:09:38 GMT
"And yet despite all those persistent niggling injuries he manages to play 4 games in the space of ~16 days in a prestigious tournament no problem. That’s some kind of luck isn’t it?" No it isn't. The whole point I'm trying to make is that he will always have niggles - most footballers do, but it's an even bigger issue for Ramsey because of the type of injuries he suffers from and the recurrences he gets. Because of that, he has to weigh up whether to play through the injury or not. During the euros he's taken more of a risk and thus played more, whereas in nations league games he may have decided not to take certain risks. So it's not a matter of luck, it's calculated. But the accusations of him feigning injuries are completely false. We are actually on the same page here because that’s what I’m getting at And and what you have just verbalised- that it’s not random, it’s a pattern, eg it’s (in your words) “calculated”. Not that there is outright feigning of injuries going on but that there is a psychological element to it that means he is able to turn up but only when the player feels like it’s worth the effort of climbing off the treatment table essentially. Even in those conditions it’s something that doesn’t really sit right with me, to be honest. It’s leveraging your importance to the team to know you can miss the hard yards but have the benefit of knowing you will start come what may when you target the biggest games to play through the niggles. Would Ramsey miss so many qualifiers if his starting place was genuinely under threat? As for the faux outrage I can assure you there is nothing faux about it, it’s genuine. If it wasn’t for the likes of Williams scoring against The Czechs and turning the game around vs Belarus there won’t be any shop window in the first place in Qatar for players to come waltzing in to the starting line up like the prodigal son. You sound perfectly okay with that because all you care about is being able to play the best players in the big games without a seconds thought to anything else. That’s your prerogative. Personally I think I would rather stick by the players who have been the more useful servant to the cause by being there when the chips were really down and dragging us through to the glory games. Eg if I was the manager of Sweden when Ibrahimovic came out of retirement for the Euros I would have told him to piss off. No, we're not on the same page, because it isn't a case of him turning up "only when the player feels like it’s worth the effort". That's where I think you're wrong which makes the rest of your post irrelevant nonsense, and more than a tad dramatic, in my view. |
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Post by njdragon on Sept 7, 2021 22:19:13 GMT
We are actually on the same page here because that’s what I’m getting at And and what you have just verbalised- that it’s not random, it’s a pattern, eg it’s (in your words) “calculated”. Not that there is outright feigning of injuries going on but that there is a psychological element to it that means he is able to turn up but only when the player feels like it’s worth the effort of climbing off the treatment table essentially. Even in those conditions it’s something that doesn’t really sit right with me, to be honest. It’s leveraging your importance to the team to know you can miss the hard yards but have the benefit of knowing you will start come what may when you target the biggest games to play through the niggles. Would Ramsey miss so many qualifiers if his starting place was genuinely under threat? As for the faux outrage I can assure you there is nothing faux about it, it’s genuine. If it wasn’t for the likes of Williams scoring against The Czechs and turning the game around vs Belarus there won’t be any shop window in the first place in Qatar for players to come waltzing in to the starting line up like the prodigal son. You sound perfectly okay with that because all you care about is being able to play the best players in the big games without a seconds thought to anything else. That’s your prerogative. Personally I think I would rather stick by the players who have been the more useful servant to the cause by being there when the chips were really down and dragging us through to the glory games. Eg if I was the manager of Sweden when Ibrahimovic came out of retirement for the Euros I would have told him to piss off. No, we're not on the same page, because it isn't a case of him turning up "only when the player feels like it’s worth the effort". That's where I think you're wrong which makes the rest of your post irrelevant nonsense, and more than a tad dramatic, in my view. Bloody hell get a grip you can’t seem to grasp this grey area can you. |
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Post by iot on Sept 7, 2021 22:29:41 GMT
No, we're not on the same page, because it isn't a case of him turning up "only when the player feels like it’s worth the effort". That's where I think you're wrong which makes the rest of your post irrelevant nonsense, and more than a tad dramatic, in my view. Bloody hell get a grip you can’t seem to grasp this grey area can you. That's rich... |
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Post by insertname on Sept 8, 2021 15:00:32 GMT
We are actually on the same page here because that’s what I’m getting at And and what you have just verbalised- that it’s not random, it’s a pattern, eg it’s (in your words) “calculated”. Not that there is outright feigning of injuries going on but that there is a psychological element to it that means he is able to turn up but only when the player feels like it’s worth the effort of climbing off the treatment table essentially. Even in those conditions it’s something that doesn’t really sit right with me, to be honest. It’s leveraging your importance to the team to know you can miss the hard yards but have the benefit of knowing you will start come what may when you target the biggest games to play through the niggles. Would Ramsey miss so many qualifiers if his starting place was genuinely under threat? As for the faux outrage I can assure you there is nothing faux about it, it’s genuine. If it wasn’t for the likes of Williams scoring against The Czechs and turning the game around vs Belarus there won’t be any shop window in the first place in Qatar for players to come waltzing in to the starting line up like the prodigal son. You sound perfectly okay with that because all you care about is being able to play the best players in the big games without a seconds thought to anything else. That’s your prerogative. Personally I think I would rather stick by the players who have been the more useful servant to the cause by being there when the chips were really down and dragging us through to the glory games. Eg if I was the manager of Sweden when Ibrahimovic came out of retirement for the Euros I would have told him to piss off. No, we're not on the same page, because it isn't a case of him turning up "only when the player feels like it’s worth the effort". That's where I think you're wrong which makes the rest of your post irrelevant nonsense, and more than a tad dramatic, in my view. I shall never understand why someone with as capable a vocabulary as yours can’t articúlate a response without reducing themselves to being so snippy when responding to someone, it does you a dis-service. However If you wish to see my response as “dramatic irrelevant nonsense” then again that is of course your opinion and you are entitled to it. I shall again just refer to your use of the words “calculated” and “risk” insinuating that there is a conscious decision making going on, which is understandable in terms of managing injuries but doesn’t acknowledge that in order for injuries to be managed there are still games that have to be won and players needed to win them. Discarding of those players at the drop of a hat for one of a more prodigal nature can’t be good for morale in the long term. |
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Post by jimexotic on Sept 8, 2021 15:04:09 GMT
All of this aside, we're a better team with Ramsey, I maintain that we could have beaten Portugal five years ago had he not been stupidly suspended and in the Euros just gone he linked up with Bale fantastically. If Ramsey is fit he plays.
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Post by saturn9 on Sept 9, 2021 8:42:28 GMT
Could be on the bench this weekend 😀😀😀😀😀😀😀
You can't make it up, can you?
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Post by dai on Sept 9, 2021 9:08:35 GMT
Where's the evidence?
I'll reserve judgement until/unless he actually gets on the pitch.
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Post by njdragon on Sept 9, 2021 9:13:10 GMT
Where's the evidence? I'll reserve judgement until/unless he actually gets on the pitch. it was posted by juve he's hoping to be fit this weekend |
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Post by saturn9 on Sept 9, 2021 9:15:45 GMT
Where's the evidence? I'll reserve judgement until/unless he actually gets on the pitch. Over on dragonsoccer also |
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