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Post by erasedcitizen on Sept 9, 2021 9:24:33 GMT
Could be on the bench this weekend ššššššš You can't make it up, can you? His situation is starting to become more apparent. Ramsey simply isn't willing to put his body on the line for us when he isn't 100% fit (which he rarely ever is), except if it's a vitally important match (Hungary, Euros) or if he is playing for the club which is paying him Ā£400k per week. That is fair in my opinion. I hope he doesn't decide the Czech game isn't vitally important though, because it is. |
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Post by dai on Sept 9, 2021 9:45:46 GMT
Where's the evidence? I'll reserve judgement until/unless he actually gets on the pitch. Over on dragonsoccer also Just seen it. It's not surprising anymore. If he can make the bench on Saturday, there's no reason he could have made the bench last night. It's only four days. I remember Bale going through a short patch where he seemed to be injured during international windows yet fit for Madrid quite soon. Think he's decided fuck it now though, and is going to do what he wants to do. |
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Post by njdragon on Sept 10, 2021 15:38:00 GMT
Ramsey included in Juventus squad for tomorrow!
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Post by welshrover on Sept 10, 2021 15:49:50 GMT
Ramsey included in Juventus squad for tomorrow! To be expected. |
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Post by dai on Sept 10, 2021 16:27:33 GMT
Even the BBC are getting involved:
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Post by insertname on Sept 10, 2021 16:33:24 GMT
Whatever happened to the rule about players being barred from returning from injury the game after an international?
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Post by dai on Sept 10, 2021 16:38:59 GMT
Whatever happened to the rule about players being barred from returning from injury the game after an international? Is that genuine? First I've heard of it. |
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Post by insertname on Sept 10, 2021 16:44:39 GMT
Whatever happened to the rule about players being barred from returning from injury the game after an international? Is that genuine? First I've heard of it. This is going back many many years but iirc there was a move at one time by FIFA, following a spate of players missing internationals then playing for their club the following weekend, to punish teams who tried to do this by permitting a mechanism whereby a club would be banned from fielding the player in question immediately after an international window. I guess it must never have taken off because it was similar to the ban FIFA have threatened on teams who refused to release players to travel to red list countries recently, but I recall that there was some sort of attempt to tackle this issue but it was very long ago now. |
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Post by saturn9 on Sept 10, 2021 16:50:33 GMT
Even the BBC are getting involved: Looking at that Juve squad, DeWinter could be an absolute star of the future, needs to step up soon to the snr Belgian squad. That at present the Belgian Achilles heel, is an ageing defence. |
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Post by insertname on Sept 10, 2021 17:15:41 GMT
Even the BBC are getting involved: Looking at that Juve squad, DeWinter could be an absolute star of the future, needs to step up soon to the snr Belgian squad. That at present the Belgian Achilles heel, is an ageing defence. Donāt give them ideas! š |
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harry
the carls
Posts: 75
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Post by harry on Sept 10, 2021 21:46:18 GMT
The best midfielder we will ever see in a Welsh shirt. What annoys me, is that, if you do the maths, his record isnāt too dissimilar to Giggs, yet one is heralded and the other (as a player, nothing to do with his trial) was hated.
Ramsey has played 67 games in 13 years, Giggs did 64 in 16 but thereās loads more international games now, so I believe the sample to be fair. At least with Giggs, it was an open secret that there was more chance of John Leslie being back on Blue Peter before him playing a friendly (unless it was against Argentina, or Brazil, where he pulled out late on) Ramsey just doesnāt play. Now, Iām not certain, but what I can state is that both have similar track records, yet one was detested and the other defended to the hilt.
FWIW, I think if you believe Ramsey has genuinely been injured for all of these games, then you need sectioning - His and Juveās approach isnāt too dissimilar to Giggs and Fergieās, where Ramsey has credit mind is, two things. The first is that he is Welsh, in the sense of having grown up here, the second is that itās now the norm. When Giggs and Fergie organised this, it was new, it drew more attention, adding to the fact that Giggs grew up in Salford, playing for the most hated club in the country and thereās your results
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Post by dai on Sept 10, 2021 22:01:24 GMT
On the Ramsey / Giggs thing, it's worth pointing out that Giggs hardly missed a qualifier. I think I'd rather have a player that missed friendlies than important qualifying matches.
Ramsey's always had niggles though, but I don't remember things being this difficult with Wales until he went to Juve.
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harry
the carls
Posts: 75
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Post by harry on Sept 10, 2021 22:07:13 GMT
On the Ramsey / Giggs thing, it's worth pointing out that Giggs hardly missed a qualifier. I think I'd rather have a player that missed friendlies than important qualifying matches. Ramsey's always had niggles though, but I don't remember things being this difficult with Wales until he went to Juve. Agreed on both accounts. Since he has gone to Italy he has been worse than Giggs ever was, granted in a shorter space of time. The bloke is incredible, amazing, you say the superlative and it applies. But his record since 2016 is atrocious, tbf thereās people on here who are that positive that if Ramsey said stick your head in the oven they would ask at what temperature. Whilst he is at Juve, he is Juveās property, anyone who fails to acknowledge his loyalties needs urgent help |
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Post by iot on Sept 10, 2021 22:32:10 GMT
The key difference between Ramsey and Giggs for me is this: Giggs (with pressure from Ferguson of course) had made the decision that he would not play in international friendlies as a preventative measure to give him a break during international windows - he openly admits this in his autobiography. In other words, he missed games for us even when completely fit (or as close to that as possible). Ramsey only pulls out when he's not fit (to differing degrees) and at risk of triggering something. I'm sure he has missed some games where he could have risked playing through injuries - but that is always a significant risk with him - I remember several instances with Arsenal where he was out for a few weeks, rushed back, would trigger something in his first game back and then out for a month or two. That, to me, is a key difference on their commitment levels.
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Post by iot on Sept 10, 2021 22:37:02 GMT
The best midfielder we will ever see in a Welsh shirt. What annoys me, is that, if you do the maths, his record isnāt too dissimilar to Giggs, yet one is heralded and the other (as a player, nothing to do with his trial) was hated. Ramsey has played 67 games in 13 years, Giggs did 64 in 16 but thereās loads more international games now, so I believe the sample to be fair. At least with Giggs, it was an open secret that there was more chance of John Leslie being back on Blue Peter before him playing a friendly (unless it was against Argentina, or Brazil, where he pulled out late on) Ramsey just doesnāt play. Now, Iām not certain, but what I can state is that both have similar track records, yet one was detested and the other defended to the hilt. FWIW, I think if you believe Ramsey has genuinely been injured for all of these games, then you need sectioning - His and Juveās approach isnāt too dissimilar to Giggs and Fergieās, where Ramsey has credit mind is, two things. The first is that he is Welsh, in the sense of having grown up here, the second is that itās now the norm. When Giggs and Fergie organised this, it was new, it drew more attention, adding to the fact that Giggs grew up in Salford, playing for the most hated club in the country and thereās your results "if you believe Ramsey has genuinely been injured for all of these games, then you need sectioning" - I'm not going to get dragged back into this merry go round, but that's a very silly comment given he's missed a game for Juve every time he's been unavailable for us. So, as mentioned several times already, either the conspiracy is so elaborate that they sacrifice him from their games each window just to give them an excuse to pull him out, or he does genuinely carry injuries into the international breaks. The only thing that can reasonably be questioned is the severity of his injuries and his willingness to play through injury. |
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harry
the carls
Posts: 75
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Post by harry on Sept 10, 2021 22:40:58 GMT
The key difference between Ramsey and Giggs for me is this: Giggs (with pressure from Ferguson of course) had made the decision that he would not play in international friendlies as a preventative measure to give him a break during international windows - he openly admits this in his autobiography. In other words, he missed games for us even when completely fit (or as close to that as possible). Ramsey only pulls out when he's not fit (to differing degrees) and at risk of triggering something. I'm sure he has missed some games where he could have risked playing through injuries - but that is always a significant risk with him - I remember several instances with Arsenal where he was out for a few weeks, rushed back, would trigger something in his first game back and then out for a month or two. That, to me, is a key difference on their commitment levels. Iām not questioning him pre Euros. Since the Euros, his record is appalling, you canāt blame him missing so many games on niggles etc. Itās the same tactic as Giggs applied, except Giggs played competitive games, all the time. He wonāt play another 20 games all told for Wales Best ever abillity wise in midfielfd, but his Wales career would be the same as Giggs without Bale. |
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Post by dai on Sept 10, 2021 22:41:24 GMT
The best midfielder we will ever see in a Welsh shirt. What annoys me, is that, if you do the maths, his record isnāt too dissimilar to Giggs, yet one is heralded and the other (as a player, nothing to do with his trial) was hated. Ramsey has played 67 games in 13 years, Giggs did 64 in 16 but thereās loads more international games now, so I believe the sample to be fair. At least with Giggs, it was an open secret that there was more chance of John Leslie being back on Blue Peter before him playing a friendly (unless it was against Argentina, or Brazil, where he pulled out late on) Ramsey just doesnāt play. Now, Iām not certain, but what I can state is that both have similar track records, yet one was detested and the other defended to the hilt. FWIW, I think if you believe Ramsey has genuinely been injured for all of these games, then you need sectioning - His and Juveās approach isnāt too dissimilar to Giggs and Fergieās, where Ramsey has credit mind is, two things. The first is that he is Welsh, in the sense of having grown up here, the second is that itās now the norm. When Giggs and Fergie organised this, it was new, it drew more attention, adding to the fact that Giggs grew up in Salford, playing for the most hated club in the country and thereās your results "if you believe Ramsey has genuinely been injured for all of these games, then you need sectioning" - I'm not going to get dragged back into this merry go round, but that's a very silly comment given he's missed a game for Juve every time he's been unavailable for us. So, as mentioned several times already, either the conspiracy is so elaborate that they sacrifice him from their games each window just to give them an excuse to pull him out, or he does genuinely carry injuries into the international breaks. The only thing that can reasonably be questioned is the severity of his injuries and his willingness to play through injury. Given the fact he's on the bench merely 4 days after being unable to play makes the severity pretty obvious imo. And obviously this is not the first time. |
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Post by insertname on Sept 10, 2021 22:57:02 GMT
The best midfielder we will ever see in a Welsh shirt. What annoys me, is that, if you do the maths, his record isnāt too dissimilar to Giggs, yet one is heralded and the other (as a player, nothing to do with his trial) was hated. Ramsey has played 67 games in 13 years, Giggs did 64 in 16 but thereās loads more international games now, so I believe the sample to be fair. At least with Giggs, it was an open secret that there was more chance of John Leslie being back on Blue Peter before him playing a friendly (unless it was against Argentina, or Brazil, where he pulled out late on) Ramsey just doesnāt play. Now, Iām not certain, but what I can state is that both have similar track records, yet one was detested and the other defended to the hilt. FWIW, I think if you believe Ramsey has genuinely been injured for all of these games, then you need sectioning - His and Juveās approach isnāt too dissimilar to Giggs and Fergieās, where Ramsey has credit mind is, two things. The first is that he is Welsh, in the sense of having grown up here, the second is that itās now the norm. When Giggs and Fergie organised this, it was new, it drew more attention, adding to the fact that Giggs grew up in Salford, playing for the most hated club in the country and thereās your results "if you believe Ramsey has genuinely been injured for all of these games, then you need sectioning" - I'm not going to get dragged back into this merry go round, but that's a very silly comment given he's missed a game for Juve every time he's been unavailable for us. So, as mentioned several times already, either the conspiracy is so elaborate that they sacrifice him from their games each window just to give them an excuse to pull him out, or he does genuinely carry injuries into the international breaks. The only thing that can reasonably be questioned is the severity of his injuries and his willingness to play through injury.Ā And therein lies the rub. Just a guess but I get the impression itās a lot easier to play through injury if there is a material benefit to your career or your legacy. Like, I dunnoā¦a one off winner takes all qualifier, or a finals tournament. Thatās what bothers me about this whole situation, the convenience of the games he is fit enough to play in. If I was a player as much as Iād try and put the success of the team first it would rankle somewhat that because of who he is he is able to take liberties that wouldnāt be tolerated if it was me who was doing it. Thatās what is so admirable about Bale, he doesnāt seem to trade at all on the fact that he knows his place is secure. He has struggled with injuries too yet he turns up rain or shine and mucks in. A total class act. So itās really hard not to be cynical and speculate that, with the Belgium game now something of a write off, he focuses on the Czech game to play in. Iāll be pleasantly surprised and he will go up in my estimation if he turns up against Belarus or Estonia. You wouldnāt put money on it though. Youād probably put money on him playing some part in the Czech game, just the way these things go. |
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Post by insertname on Sept 10, 2021 22:59:39 GMT
"if you believe Ramsey has genuinely been injured for all of these games, then you need sectioning" - I'm not going to get dragged back into this merry go round, but that's a very silly comment given he's missed a game for Juve every time he's been unavailable for us. So, as mentioned several times already, either the conspiracy is so elaborate that they sacrifice him from their games each window just to give them an excuse to pull him out, or he does genuinely carry injuries into the international breaks. The only thing that can reasonably be questioned is the severity of his injuries and his willingness to play through injury.Ā Given the fact he's on the bench merely 4 days after being unable to play makes the severity pretty obvious imo. And obviously this is not the first time. I wonder what he was thinking if he watched the Estonia game knowing he could have been on the bench to play the last 20 but didnāt because he thought weād have the game sewn up š |
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Post by insertname on Sept 10, 2021 23:04:26 GMT
The key difference between Ramsey and Giggs for me is this: Giggs (with pressure from Ferguson of course) had made the decision that he would not play in international friendlies as a preventative measure to give him a break during international windows - he openly admits this in his autobiography. In other words, he missed games for us even when completely fit (or as close to that as possible). Ramsey only pulls out when he's not fit (to differing degrees) and at risk of triggering something. I'm sure he has missed some games where he could have risked playing through injuries - but that is always a significant risk with him - I remember several instances with Arsenal where he was out for a few weeks, rushed back, would trigger something in his first game back and then out for a month or two. That, to me, is a key difference on their commitment levels. Iām not questioning him pre Euros. Since the Euros, his record is appalling, you canāt blame him missing so many games on niggles etc. Itās the same tactic as Giggs applied, except Giggs played competitive games, all the time. He wonāt play another 20 games all told for Wales Best ever abillity wise in midfielfd, but his Wales career would be the same as Giggs without Bale. In some ways you just think āRetire! At least then you wonāt be pissing away your legacy in the eyes of the fansā - heās already being equated with Giggs on here and nobody on Twitter seems to be defending him. Only turning up for the glory fixtures is not a good look. Like you say heāll probably only play a handful of games between now and when he packs it in, which canāt be long away if his injuries are that repetitive and troublesome. I expect when he leaves Juve to get one last lucrative contract he will be under pressure to have retired from international football given his history of injuries. |
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Post by fiveattheback on Sept 10, 2021 23:33:22 GMT
It's quite the turnaround to go from captain at 20 to having your commitment questioned but I think it is fair for questions to be asked. I think it's incredibly naive to think all the injuries are serious enough for him to have missed the games he has though the Giggs comparisons are pushing it a little. Ramsey has been dealt a harsh hand injury wise stemming from a certain Stoke thug.
It is annoying that he's unavailable for these games, but say Ramsey plays against the Czechs and in the playoffs, puts in great performances and gets us to the World Cup, will anyone care he didn't turn out against Estonia & Belarus? I doubt it
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Post by iot on Sept 11, 2021 0:02:25 GMT
"if you believe Ramsey has genuinely been injured for all of these games, then you need sectioning" - I'm not going to get dragged back into this merry go round, but that's a very silly comment given he's missed a game for Juve every time he's been unavailable for us. So, as mentioned several times already, either the conspiracy is so elaborate that they sacrifice him from their games each window just to give them an excuse to pull him out, or he does genuinely carry injuries into the international breaks. The only thing that can reasonably be questioned is the severity of his injuries and his willingness to play through injury. And therein lies the rub. Just a guess but I get the impression itās a lot easier to play through injury if there is a material benefit to your career or your legacy. Like, I dunnoā¦a one off winner takes all qualifier, or a finals tournament. Thatās what bothers me about this whole situation, the convenience of the games he is fit enough to play in. If I was a player as much as Iād try and put the success of the team first it would rankle somewhat that because of who he is he is able to take liberties that wouldnāt be tolerated if it was me who was doing it. Thatās what is so admirable about Bale, he doesnāt seem to trade at all on the fact that he knows his place is secure. He has struggled with injuries too yet he turns up rain or shine and mucks in. A total class act. So itās really hard not to be cynical and speculate that, with the Belgium game now something of a write off, he focuses on the Czech game to play in. Iāll be pleasantly surprised and he will go up in my estimation if he turns up against Belarus or Estonia. You wouldnāt put money on it though. Youād probably put money on him playing some part in the Czech game, just the way these things go. I disagree with the first para in your comment, and the next two are based on that, so I'll just address the first bit. You think it's about him weighing up each game and thinking about the benefit to his profile - Estonia at home, nah don't fancy it; Hungary in a must-win qualifier, yes please. I completely disagree with that. I don't think it's personal glory that drives him (which is what you seem to imply), I think he's just prepared to make an extra sacrifice when he and the FAW think he's desperately needed, whereas he might not go to the extra mile in games without as much riding on them. If we consider a hypothetical, counterfactual scenario where he takes the risk in this double header by being rushed back slightly early, he then aggravates an injury and is out for a month or two, he runs the potential of missing a big chunk of Juve's season and potentially the rest of our campaign. That's not me exaggerating anything, I could spend some time finding links to support the argument because I remember so many occasions where this has happened to him playing for arsenal. Wenger used to do it all the time - rush him back too early and then he was out for a month or two. It happened with us once and Wenger was furious: www.thefreelibrary.com/Coleman+blasts+Wenger+over+%27cheap+shot%27-a0433665499In most cases where he's missed international windows, it's been because the injury has just been too severe as evidenced by the fact he's missed club games both sides of the window. In other windows, such as this one, he's chosen not to return earlier than he's supposed to. These are Page's comments on the matter from a few days ago: 'Page has revealed Wales had hoped Aaron Ramsey would be available for their third and final game of the current international break, although the 30-year-old did not recover in time to travel from Italy to Cardiff. "We've been in constant contact with the club [Juventus] and Aaron himself," added the boss. "He pushed and pushed but he just fell short of where they wanted him to be to allow him to come away." www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/gareth-bales-relief-rob-page-21503481That last sentence implies that there are some sort of tests he needs to go through to prove his fitness, and he wasn't able to do so in a way that would satisfy Juve's staff. Some will take that at face value, others might think Juve are messing us about, some may think Page should be stronger and others may think it's Ramsey messing us about - call me naive, but I'm confident it's not the latter. |
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Post by cynonvalley on Sept 11, 2021 19:22:15 GMT
Came on for Weston McKennie in the 72nd minute in the loss against Napoli.
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Post by saturn9 on Sept 11, 2021 19:51:08 GMT
Came on for Weston McKennie in the 72nd minute in the loss against Napoli. If he stays fit until January, he is more than likely on the move. Sevilla/Villarreal would be a good destination for him |
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Post by 1gwaunview on Sept 13, 2021 18:35:37 GMT
What price another injury in October?
We'll need him more than ever now with Bale likely to be out.
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Post by dai on Sept 13, 2021 18:42:47 GMT
What price another injury in October? We'll need him more than ever now with Bale likely to be out. I'd put a months wages down.  |
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Post by saturn9 on Sept 13, 2021 18:50:55 GMT
Digon gwir Dai. Sad, but enivatable nowadays.
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Post by saturn9 on Sept 14, 2021 20:00:37 GMT
On the bench tonight. Juve 3 up on Malmƶ, may come on at 75mins I reckon.
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Post by njdragon on Sept 14, 2021 21:12:50 GMT
Yes on again for his second appearance in 4 day post international break!
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Post by cynonvalley on Sept 14, 2021 21:38:18 GMT
12 minutes!
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