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Post by dai on Oct 4, 2021 17:43:23 GMT
Pinch of salt for me. We all saw the shambles that occurred when Bale's injury was an announced, downplayed and then ruled out for over 2 months. Won't believe it until he actually steps on the pitch Friday. Well he may not play any part but as said above at least the Wales doctors have the chance to assess the situation which is still an improvement on him staying at the Juventus training ground for rehab or whatever. Yes it is a positive, but I don't think he will actual play. Possibly 30 mins or so against Estonia, but not a high intensity match against the Czechs. |
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Post by insertname on Oct 4, 2021 17:47:03 GMT
To be fair to foxmulder I think people are missing the point. I don't think he was suggesting that it's any more difficult than what other footballers experience, I think it was just a basic point in response to those questioning Ramsey's commitment. If he wasn't bothered about representing Wales, he would have retired rather than having to make the sacrifices that comes with international football (this was HRK's stated reason for retiring btw). So he clearly does want to play for Wales. The obvious logic from that is he misses Wales games for genuine injury issues. But that doesn't fit into most people's narrative where they need to imply he lacks commitment in order to have a go, because they wouldn't look decent if they had a go at a player for the simple fact of him being injured. That's why it doesn't matter how much people are shown the games he's also missed for his club, or the fact he isn't even a first team player for his club so it's absurd to think they're going to the lengths people are suggesting to prevent him from joining up. People just won't accept it because they don't want to and they don't want to because that's how they deal with the frustration. That still doesn’t quite cover the particular circumstance Ramsey is in. He’s in a privileged position and he must on some level know it. Look at Ibrahimovic- would anyone doubt his love for representing his country? No. All the same that didnt stop him putting in a cheeky bid to miss the qualifying stages and then try and bag a squad place at the finals at the expense of someone else because he knows he is guaranteed to play as and when he fancies it. I’m not saying that’s exactly what Ramsey is doing to the letter, but human psychology is not so black and white and doubtless there will be many considerations going on similar to Ibrahimovic regarding “is it worth it putting my body through travel to Russia to play a game we should win and then playing a game we should win at home a few days later” vs “if we qualify I’m bound to play”. It won’t have escaped the attention of the more cynical types who have less faith in human nature (like myself!) that Ramsey’s turned up just when we’re drinking in the last saloon again and no doubt if he gets on the pitch, we win and we’re back on track he will get all the plaudits. |
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Post by insertname on Oct 4, 2021 17:52:07 GMT
Well he may not play any part but as said above at least the Wales doctors have the chance to assess the situation which is still an improvement on him staying at the Juventus training ground for rehab or whatever. Yes it is a positive, but I don't think he will actual play. Possibly 30 mins or so against Estonia, but not a high intensity match against the Czechs. Depends on the score I reckon. Won’t start either match but if we’re drawing with the Czechs at 70 minutes he will play and the same against Estonia. I’ll be surprised if we’re anywhere near still in the game vs the Czechs after half time so I can’t see him being risked. He could, sadly, still be an important player against Estonia even only as a late cameo as I can’t see that one being the walk in the park that it should be given how we are labouring away and lacking inspiration under Page at the moment. |
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Post by iot on Oct 4, 2021 19:07:55 GMT
To be fair to foxmulder I think people are missing the point. I don't think he was suggesting that it's any more difficult than what other footballers experience, I think it was just a basic point in response to those questioning Ramsey's commitment. If he wasn't bothered about representing Wales, he would have retired rather than having to make the sacrifices that comes with international football (this was HRK's stated reason for retiring btw). So he clearly does want to play for Wales. The obvious logic from that is he misses Wales games for genuine injury issues. But that doesn't fit into most people's narrative where they need to imply he lacks commitment in order to have a go, because they wouldn't look decent if they had a go at a player for the simple fact of him being injured. That's why it doesn't matter how much people are shown the games he's also missed for his club, or the fact he isn't even a first team player for his club so it's absurd to think they're going to the lengths people are suggesting to prevent him from joining up. People just won't accept it because they don't want to and they don't want to because that's how they deal with the frustration. That still doesn’t quite cover the particular circumstance Ramsey is in. He’s in a privileged position and he must on some level know it. Look at Ibrahimovic- would anyone doubt his love for representing his country? No. All the same that didnt stop him putting in a cheeky bid to miss the qualifying stages and then try and bag a squad place at the finals at the expense of someone else because he knows he is guaranteed to play as and when he fancies it. I’m not saying that’s exactly what Ramsey is doing to the letter, but human psychology is not so black and white and doubtless there will be many considerations going on similar to Ibrahimovic regarding “is it worth it putting my body through travel to Russia to play a game we should win and then playing a game we should win at home a few days later” vs “if we qualify I’m bound to play”. It won’t have escaped the attention of the more cynical types who have less faith in human nature (like myself!) that Ramsey’s turned up just when we’re drinking in the last saloon again and no doubt if he gets on the pitch, we win and we’re back on track he will get all the plaudits. I partly agree with some of that, but disagree with your framing of it towards the end. As I've said before, I think on the vast majority of occasions he simply hasn't been fit enough to play and has missed games for Juve on both sides of the window (it's a bit of a myth that he always turns up for Juve straight after the break, that's only happened a couple of times). I suspect there have been occasions where he's carrying knocks and potentially could play, but decided not to risk it, but that's pure speculation. The bit I disagree with you on is where you think his motivation is only to turn up when he can make a name for himself, that it's sort of ego-driven. I see it as him having had a horrible time throughout his career with injuries, and is probably always carrying some sort of muscle strain, but he's more prepared to put his body on the line when he thinks we really need him. |
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Post by iot on Oct 4, 2021 19:10:05 GMT
Yes it is a positive, but I don't think he will actual play. Possibly 30 mins or so against Estonia, but not a high intensity match against the Czechs. Depends on the score I reckon. Won’t start either match but if we’re drawing with the Czechs at 70 minutes he will play and the same against Estonia. I’ll be surprised if we’re anywhere near still in the game vs the Czechs after half time so I can’t see him being risked. He could, sadly, still be an important player against Estonia even only as a late cameo as I can’t see that one being the walk in the park that it should be given how we are labouring away and lacking inspiration under Page at the moment. I'm surprised by both of your comments. There was a picture of him doing ball work today, and looked like he was training with the rest of the squad. If he was a doubt, he would be doing different types of drills on his own |
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Post by insertname on Oct 4, 2021 19:24:01 GMT
Depends on the score I reckon. Won’t start either match but if we’re drawing with the Czechs at 70 minutes he will play and the same against Estonia. I’ll be surprised if we’re anywhere near still in the game vs the Czechs after half time so I can’t see him being risked. He could, sadly, still be an important player against Estonia even only as a late cameo as I can’t see that one being the walk in the park that it should be given how we are labouring away and lacking inspiration under Page at the moment. I'm surprised by both of your comments. There was a picture of him doing ball work today, and looked like he was training with the rest of the squad. If he was a doubt, he would be doing different types of drills on his own Hmm…seems odd we got that report that he was expected to stay at the training ground then if he is actually able to take a full part in training with Wales. It’s hard to know what to think anymore with this whole situation! Maybe he could start against Czech Republic then…would Wales risk it? God knows we need some inspiration from somewhere and in Bale’s absence that would at least give us something of a hope for getting a result. |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Oct 4, 2021 19:46:53 GMT
We need him, I just hope he is fit enough to play a part. I feel like we might actually need him for the Estonia game more than the Czech game, given we should be able to counter the Czechs without him. Whereas, Estonia will be hard to break down and he could be the key. Moore will make a difference too tbf
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Post by marsvolta on Oct 4, 2021 20:44:46 GMT
Interesting stat-Over the past 7 months, Aaron Ramsey has played more minutes with Wales (447) than he has for Juventus (378)
Kind of blows away the myth that he plays for Juve, then pulls out of the Wales squad, then plays for Juve the week after.
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Post by njdragon on Oct 4, 2021 20:56:53 GMT
Interesting stat-Over the past 7 months, Aaron Ramsey has played more minutes with Wales (447) than he has for Juventus (378) Kind of blows away the myth that he plays for Juve, then pulls out of the Wales squad, then plays for Juve the week after. It doesn’t cos all those games were in the euro build up friendlies and euros! If we hadn’t qualified it would be zero for wales |
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Post by marsvolta on Oct 4, 2021 21:12:38 GMT
Interesting stat-Over the past 7 months, Aaron Ramsey has played more minutes with Wales (447) than he has for Juventus (378) Kind of blows away the myth that he plays for Juve, then pulls out of the Wales squad, then plays for Juve the week after. It doesn’t cos all those games were in the euro build up friendlies and euros! If we hadn’t qualified it would be zero for wales Ah, I see. And the lack of playing time for Juve is to continue the facade. Clever stuff. |
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Post by njdragon on Oct 4, 2021 21:17:09 GMT
It doesn’t cos all those games were in the euro build up friendlies and euros! If we hadn’t qualified it would be zero for wales Ah, I see. The funny thing is juve fans are all over this calling him A disgrace as they now think he only turns up for us. Mind games from juventus maybe? |
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Post by saturn9 on Oct 4, 2021 21:17:40 GMT
We need him, I just hope he is fit enough to play a part. I feel like we might actually need him for the Estonia game more than the Czech game, given we should be able to counter the Czechs without him. Whereas, Estonia will be hard to break down and he could be the key. Moore will make a difference too tbf I like this new found enthusiasm for the game against the Czechs. Say it quietly, but if Giggs was in the hotseat, i would quite fancy us to get a score draw at least. |
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Post by njdragon on Oct 4, 2021 21:19:37 GMT
It doesn’t cos all those games were in the euro build up friendlies and euros! If we hadn’t qualified it would be zero for wales Ah, I see. And the lack of playing time for Juve is to continue the facade. Clever stuff. We’ll do you want to quote the last 2 years playing time for juve compared to wales. It’s zero apart from the euros where he magically became uninjured!! |
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Post by jimexotic on Oct 4, 2021 22:52:49 GMT
It's very difficult to play for Juve from the bench, it's very difficult to play for anyone from the bench, that may go some way to explaining Aaron's low minutes total for The Old Lady.
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Post by marsvolta on Oct 4, 2021 23:04:28 GMT
Ah, I see. And the lack of playing time for Juve is to continue the facade. Clever stuff. We’ll do you want to quote the last 2 years playing time for juve compared to wales. It’s zero apart from the euros where he magically became uninjured!! How about looking at his whole 14 year career? He’s only played in roughly 330 club games* in his whole career for teams who average 50-60 games a season. This works out at roughly 30-40% of the potential games he could have played for his club yet he has so far managed 67 caps for Wales. I don’t know how many games Wales have played in that time but my bet is that he probably has a similar, or even better, percentage of games played for us as he does for his clubs. The facts remain that he is unfortunately a very injury prone player, who has been injured a similar amount of times for club and country. *figures taken from wiki so apologies if they are wrong If someone with better googling skills/more patience than me wants to look at the amount of games he has missed for Arsenal and Juve over the last 14 years and compare it to the amount of games he’s missed for Wales I’d be very surprised if the Wales percentage is worse than the club percentage. |
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Post by marsvolta on Oct 4, 2021 23:10:05 GMT
It’s also ironic that we are still having the same old conversation about Ramsey even though he looks to have joined up with the squad despite
the fact that he hasn’t been playing for Juve in the last 2 or 3 games, the exact opposite of what he usually gets accused of.
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Post by evans1282 on Oct 5, 2021 5:36:32 GMT
It’s also ironic that we are still having the same old conversation about Ramsey even though he looks to have joined up with the squad despite the fact that he hasn’t been playing for Juve in the last 2 or 3 games, the exact opposite of what he usually gets accused of. I used to read this site religiously,but TBH recently I dip in and out, sometimes when enraged I comment.Just to many moany faced bastards,glass half empty,or we need to get to the next level arseholes.Passion is one thing but some posters positively revel in being contrary cunts |
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Post by njdragon on Oct 5, 2021 5:58:52 GMT
Yes Ramsey’s has turned up let’s not start an argument about it now, too many smug i told you so comments FFS! get on with it, he hasn’t even played yet. Hopefully he does and everyone who has criticised him not turning up will be over the moon. That’s the point we want him there every squad!!
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Post by vvm on Oct 5, 2021 8:28:27 GMT
If he does play then he could be massive for us potentially getting something out of the Czech game. Maybe even more so for breaking down Estonia.
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Post by jimexotic on Oct 5, 2021 9:37:28 GMT
Even under Gould I never felt like sides like Estonia we'd struggle to score against but then again we still had quality strikers back then. Ramsey is absolutely vital to us right now, fingers crossed he's able to make a telling contribution. I think the reason people on here get a bit angry about it is because he's so important for us, hopefully we can get away from having so much resting on the shoulders of so few and build a solid squad.
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Post by marsvolta on Oct 6, 2021 6:46:36 GMT
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Post by impeachabull on Oct 6, 2021 8:05:35 GMT
That's really good, sadly I doubt it'll do much. People on both sides of the argument are sad Rambo doesn't start more. Sadly, some people project that into an assumption it's because of nefarious reasons. Maybe because the national team had a long period when it wasn't particularly glamorous and that stuck. It's not hard to look at Ramsey's injury periods and realise he's a relatively broken player desperately trying to keep the dream alive. As someone else said Juve fans give him stick online for prioritising Wales. He just has injuries, a lot. It's sad, unfortunate, but how it is. |
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Post by rico on Oct 6, 2021 8:25:50 GMT
Interesting that article linked in there about Dave Kitson laying blame on Pulis approach for that Shawcross tackle. Not really hard to work out given his style & reputation but hadn't heard direct blame from a player like that.
Hope we never see him near a Cymru side.
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Post by njdragon on Oct 6, 2021 8:37:40 GMT
I'll save you the time.. person writes totally one sided argument with no substance based on the fact everyone else is wrong to call out Ramsey for playing a total of 3 games since 2019 (apart from the euros) but played 69 games for Juventus since 2019 - 35, 30 & 4 this season. He's played 4 games for Juve this season and been benched for 2 games. The minutes played Wales v Juventus is a total misrepresentation but yes lets not get the facts get in the way of a blinkered argument. Our last double header Ramsey did pull out for a minor muscle injury and played either side. He has done this before. This bloody Ramsey thing is like Brexit - Im right, your'e wrong. I think supporters are quite right to question a player who has probably pulled out of more squads than any other player in our history. |
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Post by impeachabull on Oct 6, 2021 9:26:31 GMT
"He's played 4 games for Juve this season and been benched for 2 games. The minutes played Wales v Juventus is a total misrepresentation but yes lets not get the facts get in the way of a blinkered argument."
It's a bit silly to compare minutes between club sides and international sides, no? They just play more games. If someone actually wants to compare his minutes between club and country then that would be interesting. This is just comparing apples and oranges.
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Post by njdragon on Oct 6, 2021 9:40:10 GMT
"He's played 4 games for Juve this season and been benched for 2 games. The minutes played Wales v Juventus is a total misrepresentation but yes lets not get the facts get in the way of a blinkered argument." It's a bit silly to compare minutes between club sides and international sides, no? They just play more games. If someone actually wants to compare his minutes between club and country then that would be interesting. This is just comparing apples and oranges. yes kind off my point - It was shared over twitter that ramsey had played more minutes for Wales over the last 7 months (quite specific that) than Juventus. Even though Ramsey played the euros for us which was pre season and the season has only just started for Juve - He was benched not injured for 2 games btw. . Anyway this was jumped on by Wales supporters eager to prove Ramsey is not missing our games and Juventus supporters claiming Ramsey is favouring Wales over them. Both statements are frankly stupid and that figure in no way represents the full truth. |
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Post by marsvolta on Oct 6, 2021 10:03:52 GMT
I'll save you the time.. person writes totally one sided argument with no substance based on the fact everyone else is wrong to call out Ramsey for playing a total of 3 games since 2019 (apart from the euros) but played 69 games for Juventus since 2019 - 35, 30 & 4 this season. He's played 4 games for Juve this season and been benched for 2 games. The minutes played Wales v Juventus is a total misrepresentation but yes lets not get the facts get in the way of a blinkered argument. Our last double header Ramsey did pull out for a minor muscle injury and played either side. He has done this before. This bloody Ramsey thing is like Brexit - Im right, your'e wrong. I think supporters are quite right to question a player who has probably pulled out of more squads than any other player in our history. Yeah, strange that he’s put a one sided argument out. Normally the posters on here and Twitter put out well balanced points and opinions looking at both sides of the argument before coming to a rational conclusion. |
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Post by njdragon on Oct 6, 2021 10:10:52 GMT
I'll save you the time.. person writes totally one sided argument with no substance based on the fact everyone else is wrong to call out Ramsey for playing a total of 3 games since 2019 (apart from the euros) but played 69 games for Juventus since 2019 - 35, 30 & 4 this season. He's played 4 games for Juve this season and been benched for 2 games. The minutes played Wales v Juventus is a total misrepresentation but yes lets not get the facts get in the way of a blinkered argument. Our last double header Ramsey did pull out for a minor muscle injury and played either side. He has done this before. This bloody Ramsey thing is like Brexit - Im right, your'e wrong. I think supporters are quite right to question a player who has probably pulled out of more squads than any other player in our history. Yeah, strange that he’s put a one sided argument out. Normally the posters on here and Twitter put out well balanced points and opinions looking at both sides of the argument before coming to a rational conclusion. Or they post bull shit articles to back up a weak point - I expect an article to be more objective than the usual twitter, forum posters. Its a She who's written it by the way not a He! Not that it matters but pay attention to more than just the headlines. |
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Post by marsvolta on Oct 6, 2021 10:18:01 GMT
I keep promising myself that I won’t look on this thread as it’s just the same thing being repeated over and over again in circles but I’ll make one last post.*
Of all the arguments against Ramsey, the ones saying that ‘other than these upcoming games,the Euros and the friendlies before the Euros, he hasn’t played for Wales in over a year’ is the most bizarre.
Arguing that he hasn’t played for us apart from the times that he has played for us shows that we’ll never resolve this argument.
As someone said above, it’s getting like Brexit where no one wants to budge from their position. Some seem to privately hope that Ramsey pulls out so they can be right. as opposed to him playing and, you know, us having a quality midfielder on the pitch.
*it probably won’t be my last post on the subject,haha
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Post by marsvolta on Oct 6, 2021 10:23:44 GMT
Yeah, strange that he’s put a one sided argument out. Normally the posters on here and Twitter put out well balanced points and opinions looking at both sides of the argument before coming to a rational conclusion. Or they post bull shit articles to back up a weak point - I expect an article to be more objective than the usual twitter, forum posters. Its a She who's written it by the way not a He! Not that it matters but pay attention to more than just the headlines. You’re right of course but it would be nice for some forum or Twitter posters to be a bit objective too. I read the content of articles but rarely look at the name of the person who writes them so apologies to the person who wrote this one for the incorrect presumption that it was a him. As you say, it doesn’t matter but I should have checked. |
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