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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2022 13:00:44 GMT
So is john hartson an I.R.A supporter because he loves celtic? my god i would be horrified if i had to drag bullshit politics and bigotry into football,where the fuck would you have left then after you poisoned it? some of you need to go lock yourselves in a darkroom and have a little cry and a wank,arseholes.
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Post by robin1864 on Feb 1, 2022 13:13:39 GMT
Imagine thinking British footballers were remotely political.
Is Gazza a Neo-Nazi, Semetic Britnat because he played for Lazio, Spurs and Rangers? No. They see a big payday because that's all that matters to the majority of them.
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Post by allezlesrouges on Feb 1, 2022 13:36:10 GMT
I don't think anyone has said Ramsey is a Brit-nat or a Nazi or anything like that
I said that between the Team GB thing where he went against our FAW/fans, and now joining a club that is overtly pro-union that waves union flags around with a picture of the queen in their dressing room, it just seems like he at best isn't knowledgeable of how this comes across to our fan base. At worst he is aware and is supportive of Rangers political leanings - it's not impossible this is the case
No I don't think this move means he necessarily aligns with the politics of the club, but it will be perceived a certain type of way by a large section of our fan base that stands against everything Rangers culturally stands for
I never said I hate Ramsey either - just that he's going from being a cult favourite amongst our fans, to dropping down that pecking order for a lot of people
Lastly, football and politics is inter-linked there's no getting away from that. Like it or not all sport is political. And commenting or speculating on this as a subject isn't childish, and doesn't require us needing to grow up. It's just a forum where we are discussing the subject, of course differing opinions will be here
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Post by allezlesrouges on Feb 1, 2022 13:41:33 GMT
Yes you'd have thought he'd been advised. Either way between playing for GB and now this it isn't a good look for him with the indy crowd - of whom I know a lot of people loved Rambo. Especially given that he's a Welsh speaker It almost makes you think that maybe he does have an opinion on these political issues and that he is a unionist I'm an advocate for Welsh independence, but I genuinely believe lamenting the fact that Ramsey has moved to Rangers and questioning his political leanings because of it does more harm than good. If we can't learn be tolerant and accepting of other people's political views (so long as they aren't extreme), then quite frankly we don't deserve to be independent. As proven by our excellent support out in the Euros in 2016 and the team spirit throughout the camp that got us to a semi final, we work best as a nation when we are united. If people are going to turn their backs on Rambo because of the football team he has decided to sign for, then we have little hope for the future. I'm not saying I won't support Ramsey - I absolutely will as I will for anyone turning out for Wales. However, what Rangers stand for is extreme. They are anti-Celt and support institutions that have attempted to eradicate our cultures/languages, which is why I don't tolerate the politics of their club I don't advocate for anyone turning their backs on Rambo and I don't think anyone here has said we should |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Feb 1, 2022 13:43:33 GMT
Yes you'd have thought he'd been advised. Either way between playing for GB and now this it isn't a good look for him with the indy crowd - of whom I know a lot of people loved Rambo. Especially given that he's a Welsh speaker It almost makes you think that maybe he does have an opinion on these political issues and that he is a unionist Did anyone seriously think he was a nationalist? I would be genuinely staggered if any of our players are anything but unionists. It doesn't make me think any less of them at all. No I don't think anyone did, but he appeared to be more neutral than he appears now. That's all. It does change how highly regarded he is in the eyes of the pro-indy fandom however and I think that's fair |
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Post by cadno on Feb 1, 2022 14:12:01 GMT
Crazy os troiodd e Sevilla neu Dortmund lawr. I might be wrong, I think he'll be only the 2nd Welshman to play for Rangers, Andy Dibble being the other? Andy King and Declan John are 2 others I can name off the top of my head. Good shout, totally forgot they played for Rangers! Did King ever make an appearance? |
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Post by insertname on Feb 1, 2022 14:12:18 GMT
I don't think anyone has said Ramsey is a Brit-nat or a Nazi or anything like that I said that between the Team GB thing where he went against our FAW/fans, and now joining a club that is overtly pro-union that waves union flags around with a picture of the queen in their dressing room, it just seems like he at best isn't knowledgeable of how this comes across to our fan base. At worst he is aware and is supportive of Rangers political leanings - it's not impossible this is the case No I don't think this move means he necessarily aligns with the politics of the club, but it will be perceived a certain type of way by a large section of our fan base that stands against everything Rangers culturally stands for I never said I hate Ramsey either - just that he's going from being a cult favourite amongst our fans, to dropping down that pecking order for a lot of people Lastly, football and politics is inter-linked there's no getting away from that. Like it or not all sport is political. And commenting or speculating on this as a subject isn't childish, and doesn't require us needing to grow up. It's just a forum where we are discussing the subject, of course differing opinions will be here If they gave that much of a shit about Sport and politics Ramsey would never have been a cult hero in the first place because of the Team GB stuff. He was happy to take the Queens shilling on that occasion when there was a concerted effort to raise awareness of anti-GB feeling amongst Welsh sports fans. If he didn’t get the message then then he never will. Bale, notably, called in sick. It smacks to me like people have tried to make excuses for the team GB stuff and this is the last straw. Such people obviously don’t have the courage of their convictions if they were prepared to sweep the much more heinous team GB stuff under the carpet and then make signing for poxy Rangers the hill upon which they die on. |
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Post by cadno on Feb 1, 2022 14:12:42 GMT
He is a Brit and a Tory no doubt about it No different to many in Wales then, you forgot to say brexit voter Did he vote for Brexit? |
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Post by squatter1 on Feb 1, 2022 14:34:05 GMT
Probably the most disappointing transfer I've seen in my lifetime.
I doubt, however, it says anything about Ramsey's politics, probably more about his ignorance of politics I would have thought.
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Post by iot on Feb 1, 2022 14:40:51 GMT
People can feel gutted about a Welsh hero going to a club that represents British nationalism and is the antithesis of Scottish nationhood (and by extension Welsh nationhood) without holding him to blame for it because that sort of sentiment is unlikely to be on his radar. I hate the move even if I don't blame him for it.
But perhaps moreso, I hate the move for footballing reasons because of what it says about his standing in the game and thus our standing in the game. We've been able to make out that we're one of the top 2nd-tier national teams in recent years and having superstars playing for Madrid, Juventus and Arsenal has been part of that narrative. I would imagine it also contributes towards how we're perceived by others, including opposing nations. So I see this move as a bit of a hit to our standing in the game.
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Post by CrackityJones on Feb 1, 2022 14:52:55 GMT
No different to many in Wales then, you forgot to say brexit voter Did he vote for Brexit? Why would anyone on this forum know that? Why do you think Ramsey votes Tory and is a Brit as you say? |
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Post by robin1864 on Feb 1, 2022 14:54:39 GMT
People can feel gutted about a Welsh hero going to a club that represents British nationalism and is the antithesis of Scottish nationhood (and by extension Welsh nationhood) without holding him to blame for it because that sort of sentiment is unlikely to be on his radar. I hate the move even if I don't blame him for it. But perhaps moreso, I hate the move for footballing reasons because of what it says about his standing in the game and thus our standing in the game. We've been able to make out that we're one of the top 2nd-tier national teams in recent years and having superstars playing for Madrid, Juventus and Arsenal has been part of that narrative. I would imagine it also contributes towards how we're perceived by others, including opposing nations. So I see this move as a bit of a hit to our standing in the game. We're an ageing team with no viable replacements in the pipeline, this was always going to happen. Allen and Ramsey, who made Euro 2016's team of the tournament, are winding down and being gradually replaced by league 1 standard players like Morrell, Levitt and Smith. Say what you like about Ampadu, Brooks, James etc. but they're never coming close to Bale, Rambo & Allen in their prime. |
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Post by iot on Feb 1, 2022 15:11:45 GMT
People can feel gutted about a Welsh hero going to a club that represents British nationalism and is the antithesis of Scottish nationhood (and by extension Welsh nationhood) without holding him to blame for it because that sort of sentiment is unlikely to be on his radar. I hate the move even if I don't blame him for it. But perhaps moreso, I hate the move for footballing reasons because of what it says about his standing in the game and thus our standing in the game. We've been able to make out that we're one of the top 2nd-tier national teams in recent years and having superstars playing for Madrid, Juventus and Arsenal has been part of that narrative. I would imagine it also contributes towards how we're perceived by others, including opposing nations. So I see this move as a bit of a hit to our standing in the game. We're an ageing team with no viable replacements in the pipeline, this was always going to happen. Allen and Ramsey, who made Euro 2016's team of the tournament, are winding down and being gradually replaced by league 1 standard players like Morrell, Levitt and Smith. Say what you like about Ampadu, Brooks, James etc. but they're never coming close to Bale, Rambo & Allen in their prime. Agreed, and it was always unlikely that we would ever sustain a top 20 (never mind the brief top 10) position in the world rankings. A lot of people didn't realize how rare it was for us to have 2 players of such quality, accompanied by several very decent players all in the same crop. People were talking like the only way was up when the likes of Brooks, Ampadu and Woodburn were coming through, without ever appreciating how the decline of bale and ramsey would be a much greater hit than the value brought by that group. |
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Post by insertname on Feb 1, 2022 15:44:06 GMT
Probably the most disappointing transfer I've seen in my lifetime. I doubt, however, it says anything about Ramsey's politics, probably more about his ignorance of politics I would have thought. Why does anybody even think politics should come into it? It obviously wasn’t about money as it seems his wage will stay the same wherever he went. A sports site is today reporting that he was whored out by Juve to a load of middle of the table prem teams but no one was interested even at heavily subsidised wages. So if he didn’t have his pick of suitors I don’t see how anyone can hold politics over his head for going somewhere where he could just play football. The only clubs who definitely seemed to be in for him were Burnley Newcastle and Rangers and to be fair to the bloke whichever one of those he went to he would have got stick and if he‘d sat on his arse and picked up his wages he’d have got stick then. I don’t think he could win. |
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Post by CrackityJones on Feb 1, 2022 15:54:45 GMT
From the man himself:
"I had a number of offers on the table," the Cardiff City youth product added. "But none matched the magnitude of this club, with European football and the chance to play in front of 50,000 fans every other week."
It was probably the chance of European football that swayed him over the prem offers.
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Post by abwales on Feb 1, 2022 16:01:58 GMT
Hopefully he gets fit, stays fit and it leads to good performances for us. Could not give a shit who he plays for.
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Post by insertname on Feb 1, 2022 16:19:13 GMT
People can feel gutted about a Welsh hero going to a club that represents British nationalism and is the antithesis of Scottish nationhood (and by extension Welsh nationhood) without holding him to blame for it because that sort of sentiment is unlikely to be on his radar. I hate the move even if I don't blame him for it. But perhaps moreso, I hate the move for footballing reasons because of what it says about his standing in the game and thus our standing in the game. We've been able to make out that we're one of the top 2nd-tier national teams in recent years and having superstars playing for Madrid, Juventus and Arsenal has been part of that narrative. I would imagine it also contributes towards how we're perceived by others, including opposing nations. So I see this move as a bit of a hit to our standing in the game. Hmm…..I think Bale has been great for Wales, no question, but he’s the extreme end of the scale, once you get into the realms of Ramsey at Juventus and Allen at Liverpool or hell, Morrell at Inter (suspend your disbelief 😂) I don’t think it’s that culturally important. The higher standard of football undoubtedly helps the player and the national side. But in terms of raising the profile of the country in a football sense qualifying for tournaments and excelling at them is what chiefly puts Wales on the map and gains respect and I don’t think you need players playing for big name clubs to do that, that’s just a nice to have imo. I’ve said for a while that we are in a sort of transition phase that is somehow still producing results, I mean in the sense that our club players are in and out of their teams and our surfeit of premier players has dwindled. I think Ramsey is part of that picture unfortunately and I think there has been some extreme optimism and lack of objectivity when it comes to Ramsey in particular. I’ve never got the impression that he has been particularly rated out of Wales and the move to Juventus brought that to the fore when the public found out how much he was being paid compared to how good he was perceived to be. Sadly he’s proved all the people who thought he was going to be a poor signing at a CL contender right (injuries and position played a part in hampering his opportunities to show off his ability, granted) and, if people didn’t rate him before then his stock was never going to be high coming off the back of the breakdown of his time in Italy. In terms of what we’ve seen on the pitch he’s looked good for Wales against the Czechs but he gave the ball away with literally every touch in the first half against Belgium, it was looking like ROI in the World Cup until he improved second half. He also had a fairly anonymous Euros (and that’s probably the key driver of his lowered stock given the wide reach of Wales games at a tournament), bar that cameo against Turkey. On that evidence + his injuries it’s not hard to see why he’s struggled to find suitors (apart from clubs in relegation trouble) who think they can accommodate him. But he’s what, 31? Given his injuries he’s probably got one last long term move after Rangers, it’s down to him to claw his way back up and make himself a marketable asset. Not impossible but the question is whether age and injuries mean his ceiling is lower than the form he showed at the 2016 Euros? |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Feb 1, 2022 16:35:40 GMT
I don't think anyone has said Ramsey is a Brit-nat or a Nazi or anything like that I said that between the Team GB thing where he went against our FAW/fans, and now joining a club that is overtly pro-union that waves union flags around with a picture of the queen in their dressing room, it just seems like he at best isn't knowledgeable of how this comes across to our fan base. At worst he is aware and is supportive of Rangers political leanings - it's not impossible this is the case No I don't think this move means he necessarily aligns with the politics of the club, but it will be perceived a certain type of way by a large section of our fan base that stands against everything Rangers culturally stands for I never said I hate Ramsey either - just that he's going from being a cult favourite amongst our fans, to dropping down that pecking order for a lot of people Lastly, football and politics is inter-linked there's no getting away from that. Like it or not all sport is political. And commenting or speculating on this as a subject isn't childish, and doesn't require us needing to grow up. It's just a forum where we are discussing the subject, of course differing opinions will be here If they gave that much of a shit about Sport and politics Ramsey would never have been a cult hero in the first place because of the Team GB stuff. He was happy to take the Queens shilling on that occasion when there was a concerted effort to raise awareness of anti-GB feeling amongst Welsh sports fans. If he didn’t get the message then then he never will. Bale, notably, called in sick. It smacks to me like people have tried to make excuses for the team GB stuff and this is the last straw. Such people obviously don’t have the courage of their convictions if they were prepared to sweep the much more heinous team GB stuff under the carpet and then make signing for poxy Rangers the hill upon which they die on. I completely agree with what you are saying. You're perhaps right that I have been conveniently ignoring the Team GB thing. Maybe it is because I was younger when that all happened (mid teens), and was less dialled into the politics of it all. Maybe because it was in the pre "unity of the Euros spirit" days, so I could be a bit more forgiving of Rambo given there wasn't the same positive atmosphere around our national team then Now I'm thinking about it more I think what bothers me is that as fans we like the illusion that the players really understand the fans. And this move shatters that illusion for me. Perhaps I'm being too idealistic |
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Post by insertname on Feb 1, 2022 16:50:23 GMT
If they gave that much of a shit about Sport and politics Ramsey would never have been a cult hero in the first place because of the Team GB stuff. He was happy to take the Queens shilling on that occasion when there was a concerted effort to raise awareness of anti-GB feeling amongst Welsh sports fans. If he didn’t get the message then then he never will. Bale, notably, called in sick. It smacks to me like people have tried to make excuses for the team GB stuff and this is the last straw. Such people obviously don’t have the courage of their convictions if they were prepared to sweep the much more heinous team GB stuff under the carpet and then make signing for poxy Rangers the hill upon which they die on. I completely agree with what you are saying. You're perhaps right that I have been conveniently ignoring the Team GB thing. Maybe it is because I was younger when that all happened (mid teens), and was less dialled into the politics of it all. Maybe because it was in the pre "unity of the Euros spirit" days, so I could be a bit more forgiving of Rambo given there wasn't the same positive atmosphere around our national team then Now I'm thinking about it more I think what bothers me is that as fans we like the illusion that the players really understand the fans. And this move shatters that illusion for me. Perhaps I'm being too idealistic I’m not aiming that at you btw, it was more about the people you were referring to who seem to be very firmly entrenched in the equating of football club’s vs National independence. I try not to get involved as whilst I agree that sport and politics do collide (England v Argentina in 86 being a case in point) it’s dangerous to let it get to the sort of extreme embodied in the Old Firm. I just think that the time for recrimination with Ramsey was back at the time of the olympics, that set a precedent of Wales competing as GB. I always thought it was a bit blown out of proportion to be honest and nothing has come of it since but I can appreciate why people were worried and the threat should have really been enough for the players. In fact didnt the FAW try and educate our players on the ramifications and they still did it anyway? For a gold medal? Signing for Rangers doesn’t compare, imo. But yeah I think you might be on the idealistic side though! 😂 it’s a job isn’t it? They’ll go where their needs are served best and they won’t think twice about political messages. Bale perhaps would as I feel his withdrawal from team GB through “injury” was a great bit of PR that offended nobody whilst tacitly indicating to the Welsh that he wasn’t having it. Perhaps he would rather retire than sign for Rangers, but Bale is a rare old breed in sporting terms who seems very clued in about his heritage. Most either won’t care or will care but put their career first. It’s their livelihood at the end of the day so it’s hard to blame them for signing for a club with dubious connotations. Team GB on the other hand, is far harder to defend, for a pretty crap prize too, compared to what could have been at stake. |
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Post by erasedcitizen on Feb 1, 2022 16:58:48 GMT
From the man himself: "I had a number of offers on the table," the Cardiff City youth product added. "But none matched the magnitude of this club, with European football and the chance to play in front of 50,000 fans every other week." It was probably the chance of European football that swayed him over the prem offers. He hasn't added the opportunity to win trophies either, but I'd wager that was also part of it. |
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Post by erasedcitizen on Feb 1, 2022 17:01:57 GMT
Andy King and Declan John are 2 others I can name off the top of my head. Good shout, totally forgot they played for Rangers! Did King ever make an appearance? Limited appearances, but I do seem to remember him being pictured holding up the Union Jack which made me feel a little queasy. I suppose he was born in England. |
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Post by cadno on Feb 1, 2022 17:03:25 GMT
Why would anyone on this forum know that? Why do you think Ramsey votes Tory and is a Brit as you say? Pretty sure he's posted things about footballers paying too much taxes! Played for GB, Rangers, supports the Lions etc, hes a Brit no doubt! Each to their own, he's been an amazing player for us and he's also a proud Welshman so it is what it is. Team GB upset me, playing for Rangers I'm not that bothered, at least he'll have regular game time now! |
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Post by erasedcitizen on Feb 1, 2022 17:04:33 GMT
I'm an advocate for Welsh independence, but I genuinely believe lamenting the fact that Ramsey has moved to Rangers and questioning his political leanings because of it does more harm than good. If we can't learn be tolerant and accepting of other people's political views (so long as they aren't extreme), then quite frankly we don't deserve to be independent. As proven by our excellent support out in the Euros in 2016 and the team spirit throughout the camp that got us to a semi final, we work best as a nation when we are united. If people are going to turn their backs on Rambo because of the football team he has decided to sign for, then we have little hope for the future. I'm not saying I won't support Ramsey - I absolutely will as I will for anyone turning out for Wales. However, what Rangers stand for is extreme. They are anti-Celt and support institutions that have attempted to eradicate our cultures/languages, which is why I don't tolerate the politics of their club I don't advocate for anyone turning their backs on Rambo and I don't think anyone here has said we should Chelsea are the same, but I doubt many would hound Ampadu if he broke into their side. I get what you're saying, that his status among fans will drop with this move but I argue that it's just a little daft all in all. He'd probably lose more support from fans on the whole if he moved to Swansea. |
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Post by foxmulder on Feb 1, 2022 17:25:09 GMT
I despised Team GB (and always will). I was very disappointed in our players, but I've given Ramsey, Allen and Taylor the benefit of the doubt by thinking they were just 21 year olds that got swept up in it all.
They naturally would've looked up to Bellamy and Giggs. If those two were doing it, surely it was fine. It's obvious Bellamy and Giggs wanted an international tournament taste.
Now let's be realistic. The only reason he's signed for Rangers is because he fucked up. Ramsey doesn't hide on the pitch and he has that winning sportsman mentality. He wanted a big Premier League club and turned down the ones he though weren't big enough for him. Going from Arsenal > Juve > Rangers is bonkers and random as fuck!
It came down to deadline day and that was the only realistic option for him.
And when asked about why he joined Rangers, he's not going to say, "Oh sorry butt, I wanted to rejoin Arsenal, not those other clubs, but time ran out and now I'm stuck with these unionists. Joey Leds just unfriended me on Facebook too."
He gave a pretty generic soundbite instead.
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Post by gwernybwch on Feb 1, 2022 17:55:33 GMT
I'm an advocate for Welsh independence, but I genuinely believe lamenting the fact that Ramsey has moved to Rangers and questioning his political leanings because of it does more harm than good. If we can't learn be tolerant and accepting of other people's political views (so long as they aren't extreme), then quite frankly we don't deserve to be independent. As proven by our excellent support out in the Euros in 2016 and the team spirit throughout the camp that got us to a semi final, we work best as a nation when we are united. If people are going to turn their backs on Rambo because of the football team he has decided to sign for, then we have little hope for the future. I'm not saying I won't support Ramsey - I absolutely will as I will for anyone turning out for Wales. However, what Rangers stand for is extreme. They are anti-Celt and support institutions that have attempted to eradicate our cultures/languages, which is why I don't tolerate the politics of their club I don't advocate for anyone turning their backs on Rambo and I don't think anyone here has said we should Great post. Even for those that considers themselves some kind of expert on socio-political aspect of Scottish football, it gives a good overview of what Rangers represents and why some Welsh football fans would rather not have 'one of their own' being associated with that. Regardless as whether people like or loath it, politics, society are nationality are inheritantly mixed up in football. Even in Welsh international football. Just a couple of months ago, there were 20k+ Welsh football fans singing "in spite of everyone and everything, we are still here". |
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Post by caws1958 on Feb 1, 2022 18:05:49 GMT
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Post by robin1864 on Feb 1, 2022 18:59:10 GMT
I reckon he'll end up retiring at Cardiff. I just can't see a way back to the PL for him at his age & with his injury record.
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Post by allezlesrouges on Feb 1, 2022 21:27:42 GMT
I'm not saying I won't support Ramsey - I absolutely will as I will for anyone turning out for Wales. However, what Rangers stand for is extreme. They are anti-Celt and support institutions that have attempted to eradicate our cultures/languages, which is why I don't tolerate the politics of their club I don't advocate for anyone turning their backs on Rambo and I don't think anyone here has said we should Just a couple of months ago, there were 20k+ Welsh football fans singing "in spite of everyone and everything, we are still here". Cywir! That song means something to us for a reason! |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Feb 1, 2022 21:29:26 GMT
Why would anyone on this forum know that? Why do you think Ramsey votes Tory and is a Brit as you say? Pretty sure he's posted things about footballers paying too much taxes! Played for GB, Rangers, supports the Lions etc, hes a Brit no doubt! Each to their own, he's been an amazing player for us and he's also a proud Welshman so it is what it is. Team GB upset me, playing for Rangers I'm not that bothered, at least he'll have regular game time now! When you put it like that it's definitely the most likely thing that he isn't clued up enough to see the contradiction between being proud to be Welsh and proud to be British. Makes the most sense |
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Post by eppingblue1 on Feb 1, 2022 22:07:13 GMT
Pretty sure he's posted things about footballers paying too much taxes! Played for GB, Rangers, supports the Lions etc, hes a Brit no doubt! Each to their own, he's been an amazing player for us and he's also a proud Welshman so it is what it is. Team GB upset me, playing for Rangers I'm not that bothered, at least he'll have regular game time now! When you put it like that it's definitely the most likely thing that he isn't clued up enough to see the contradiction between being proud to be Welsh and proud to be British. Makes the most sense What gives you the right to judge his intellect just cause he may have different views from you ? Of course its not a contradiction being proudly British and Welsh at the same time. Seems to me that you and yours are the real bigots in this argument. |
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