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Giggs
Jan 21, 2018 0:00:12 GMT
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abwales likes this
Post by marsvolta on Jan 21, 2018 0:00:12 GMT
Good contextual stuff. It's also worth pointing out that Bale, by his own admission, returned too early from injury so he could help Real Madrid win the Champions League last season. This early return probably played a big part in Bale missing all four of our last qualifying matches - and therefore contributed significantly to our failure to qualify for the World Cup. Do I blame Bale? Not one bit - shit happens. But had it been Giggs in Bale's position, he would have had a lot of grief over it. I'm not exonerating Giggs for his indifferent commitment to the Welsh cause by any stretch of the imagination, nor am I having a go at Bale - but I think it's helpful to have a realistic perspective of the difficult choices that players at the very top of the game, such as Giggs and Bale, are faced with when trying to juggle the demands of club and country. Don't agree that Giggs would have got a lot of grief for trying to get fit to help Man Utd win the champions league,even if the injury came the following season due to him coming back too soon. I can't believe any sane Welsh fan would have been under any illusions in those circumstances
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Giggs
Jan 21, 2018 10:58:40 GMT
Post by alarch on Jan 21, 2018 10:58:40 GMT
My oversight regarding the first double-header - but it's reasonable to question whether the chronic re-occurring injury problems Bale has endured would have been better addressed by a lengthier lay-off towards the end of the 2016/17 season, rather than a rushed return. And this may well have impacted his availability for the last double-header. This is a direct quote by Bale: "On the one hand, it's easy now to say that I should have rested more. But when you've been injured for three months and you see your team-mates play you really want to come back and that's what I did. I had to take a lot of painkillers to play. And yes, now I think I should have taken more time to recuperate so I could have played much better and been able to do all those things that, with the ankle pain, I wasn't able to do. If I could go back, I would have taken more time to recover." - www.goal.com/en-gb/news/i-had-to-take-a-lot-of-painkillers-to-play-bale-reveals-that/9a5no3zpll2418c6993eilfth . The injury that caused Bale to miss the double-header against Georgia and ROI was a calf-injury ( www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/gareth-bale-ruled-out-wales-13708441 ), which I assume was in the same area that caused him grief towards the end of the 2016/17 season, and his decision to use painkillers to get club game time. It's tempting to see things in binary terms, with Giggs being the perfect manifestation of all that is bad, and Bale the manifestation of all that is good. Reality is never that simple. I don't blame Bale for missing the last double-header at all, but are others willing to show similar generosity of spirit towards Giggs?
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Giggs
Jan 21, 2018 10:59:22 GMT
Post by alarch on Jan 21, 2018 10:59:22 GMT
Don't agree that Giggs would have got a lot of grief for trying to get fit to help Man Utd win the champions league,even if the injury came the following season due to him coming back too soon. I can't believe any sane Welsh fan would have been under any illusions in those circumstances Given the tone of the debate around Giggs, I beg to differ.
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Giggs
Jan 21, 2018 12:47:55 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2018 12:47:55 GMT
If we’re to understand that Bellers gave the Hollywood interview then that means Roberts was third at best. Someone like Brian Kidd has been a great number two at clubs. He never made being a manager his thing. That means nothing because there are also numerous examples of no. 2s going on to become great managers. I believe Jose Mourinho was an assistant manager early on - under bobby robson I think. Also, look at what Iceland did with their assistant manager stepping up to the top job this last campaign! That's probably the best comparison. That’s not what I was trying to say. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t. The vocal majority wanted Roberts but it’s clear he didn’t say what the Welsh FA wanted to hear given it was Giggs then Bellamy. Have lower league clubs or similar approached Roberts to be their manager in his own right?
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Giggs
Jan 21, 2018 13:07:39 GMT
Post by abwales on Jan 21, 2018 13:07:39 GMT
Agree with marsvolta. I think its slightly ridiculous to suggest he would. You don't get to play in many finals as a player, you have to do whatever it takes to get there. No-one doubted Giggs' commitment to turning up for very important Wales games.
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Post by alarch on Jan 21, 2018 14:09:20 GMT
And what about the stick that Giggs got for turning up for Team GB after retiring for Wales? Can't remember Bellamy, Ramsey, Allen and Taylor getting the same flak.
You're missing the point here - that Giggs is being held to a very high standard that Bale et al are not. That's hypocrisy plain and simple. However, there are plenty of good reasons for having misgivings about Giggs, but his playing record is a trivial consideration - whereas it appears to be the most significant one for most people opposed to Giggs as Wales manager. Of much, much greater concern is continuity of the Welsh Way of doing things. If Osian Roberts leaves the Welsh setup as a result of a Giggs appointment that would be a huge cause for concern - by which all this trivial stuff about turning up for Wales pales into insignificance.
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Giggs
Jan 21, 2018 14:37:13 GMT
Post by cadno on Jan 21, 2018 14:37:13 GMT
And what about the stick that Giggs got for turning up for Team GB after retiring for Wales? Can't remember Bellamy, Ramsey, Allen and Taylor getting the same flak. You're missing the point here - that Giggs is being held to a very high standard that Bale et al are not. That's hypocrisy plain and simple. However, there are plenty of good reasons for having misgivings about Giggs, but his playing record is a trivial consideration - whereas it appears to be the most significant one for most people opposed to Giggs as Wales manager. Of much, much greater concern is continuity of the Welsh Way of doing things. If Osian Roberts leaves the Welsh setup as a result of a Giggs appointment that would be a huge cause for concern - by which all this trivial stuff about turning up for Wales pales into insignificance. Bellamy and Giggs were the biggest dick heads, they should've known better! the rest were young at the time, I can forgive them.
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Giggs
Jan 21, 2018 14:59:01 GMT
Post by joseywales37 on Jan 21, 2018 14:59:01 GMT
About the friendlies from Giggs book,
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Giggs
Jan 21, 2018 16:49:15 GMT
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abwales likes this
Post by marsvolta on Jan 21, 2018 16:49:15 GMT
And what about the stick that Giggs got for turning up for Team GB after retiring for Wales? Can't remember Bellamy, Ramsey, Allen and Taylor getting the same flak. You're missing the point here - that Giggs is being held to a very high standard that Bale et al are not. That's hypocrisy plain and simple. However, there are plenty of good reasons for having misgivings about Giggs, but his playing record is a trivial consideration - whereas it appears to be the most significant one for most people opposed to Giggs as Wales manager. Of much, much greater concern is continuity of the Welsh Way of doing things. If Osian Roberts leaves the Welsh setup as a result of a Giggs appointment that would be a huge cause for concern - by which all this trivial stuff about turning up for Wales pales into insignificance. The major difference was that Giggs had supposedly retired from international football and wouldn't come back whatever the circumstances. ( when we needed a boost after Ramsey's injury or Speeds death for example) As soon as a major tournament on the doorstep appeared he came out of retirement Anyway,the others did get stick for playing for Team GB,look back at the forums at the time We forgave them tho,just like we all need to forgive Giggs and move forward.(this thread isn't helping)
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Giggs
Jan 21, 2018 19:27:40 GMT
Post by gwernybwch on Jan 21, 2018 19:27:40 GMT
About the friendlies from Giggs book, Although what he conveniently forgets to mention in his autobiography is that the friendlies that he started to play under Hughes more or less coincides with the us playing big sides. His friendlies under Hughes were Finland (first game at the Millennium Stadium), Argentina, Germany, Scotland and Canada (end of season friendly). It's funny that his hamstring suddenly loosened up when a big side came to play at a full stadium now isn't it?
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Giggs
Jan 21, 2018 22:12:56 GMT
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Post by conwy10 on Jan 21, 2018 22:12:56 GMT
Robbie Savage - "Criticism of Ryan Giggs as Wales boss is just a cheap shot - who cares if he didn't plays some meaningless friendlies" www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/ryan-giggs-deserves-only-respect-11880262Cheap shots about missing friendlies haven't changed my opinion about Ryan Giggs as the new Wales manager. It's a great opportunity for him – and an exciting appointment. I go back a long way with Giggs. I remember him coming to trials with Wales Under-15s when his name was Ryan Wilson, I shared a dressing room with him in the Class of '92 at Manchester United and I grew up with him. He's the most decorated player in Premier League history and deserves only respect for everything he has achieved in the game. Put it this way: If you are qualified to play for Wales, and you get a phone call from Ryan Giggs inviting you to join his bandwagon, why would you turn him down? I couldn't care less if he didn't always turn up for meaningless friendlies. I saw the passion when Giggs pulled on the red shirt for Wales: He loved it, he embraced it and I wish him all the luck in the world. Taking on an international job as his first managerial assignment may not be the orthodox route, but Mark Hughes started in the dugout with Wales – and it didn't do him any harm. A few things about that. 1. Savage supporting Giggs is a big indication we've probably got it wrong. 2. I didn't know that Savage played for Man United, why doesn't he remind us at every opportunity? He always seems to squeeze it in somewhere - "I've just made some toast" "oh yeah when I was at Manchester United I made toast too". 3. How many people will be invited into the Wales squad and need to be convinced by the manager? I assume they'll want to play for Wales and report for duty. 4. You can respect what he's achieved in football without giving him the main job. I appreciate the work my mechanic does but it doesn't mean I need to make him managing director of a factory, he could just be good at what he does. When I want to appreciate Giggs I'll watch videos of Giggs playing football which was his job. 5. It's not done Hughes any harm but out of Hughes/Wales who benefited more from that? I'll be harsh we got some really good results against similar teams to us, beat an under strength Italy and then fell into the play offs. We lost 3 times and finished 2nd and it was seen as a success, we just lost once and failed to get a play off spot and it was considered a failure.
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Giggs
Jan 21, 2018 23:35:16 GMT
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Post by chislenko on Jan 21, 2018 23:35:16 GMT
I read it that Otto had shared a dressing room with him in the class of 92!!!
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Giggs
Jan 22, 2018 8:09:06 GMT
Post by richierich333 on Jan 22, 2018 8:09:06 GMT
Robbie Savage - "Criticism of Ryan Giggs as Wales boss is just a cheap shot - who cares if he didn't plays some meaningless friendlies" www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/ryan-giggs-deserves-only-respect-11880262Cheap shots about missing friendlies haven't changed my opinion about Ryan Giggs as the new Wales manager. It's a great opportunity for him – and an exciting appointment. I go back a long way with Giggs. I remember him coming to trials with Wales Under-15s when his name was Ryan Wilson, I shared a dressing room with him in the Class of '92 at Manchester United and I grew up with him. He's the most decorated player in Premier League history and deserves only respect for everything he has achieved in the game. Put it this way: If you are qualified to play for Wales, and you get a phone call from Ryan Giggs inviting you to join his bandwagon, why would you turn him down? I couldn't care less if he didn't always turn up for meaningless friendlies. I saw the passion when Giggs pulled on the red shirt for Wales: He loved it, he embraced it and I wish him all the luck in the world. Taking on an international job as his first managerial assignment may not be the orthodox route, but Mark Hughes started in the dugout with Wales – and it didn't do him any harm. A few things about that. 1. Savage supporting Giggs is a big indication we've probably got it wrong. 2. I didn't know that Savage played for Man United, why doesn't he remind us at every opportunity? He always seems to squeeze it in somewhere - "I've just made some toast" "oh yeah when I was at Manchester United I made toast too". 3. How many people will be invited into the Wales squad and need to be convinced by the manager? I assume they'll want to play for Wales and report for duty. 4. You can respect what he's achieved in football without giving him the main job. I appreciate the work my mechanic does but it doesn't mean I need to make him managing director of a factory, he could just be good at what he does. When I want to appreciate Giggs I'll watch videos of Giggs playing football which was his job. 5. It's not done Hughes any harm but out of Hughes/Wales who benefited more from that? I'll be harsh we got some really good results against similar teams to us, beat an under strength Italy and then fell into the play offs. We lost 3 times and finished 2nd and it was seen as a success, we just lost once and failed to get a play off spot and it was considered a failure. This is so negative. I particularly take exception with the under strength Italy part come on look at the side they had out that day: Buffon, Panucci, Cannavaro, Nesta, Zauri, Di Biagio, Ambrosini, Pirlo, Tommasi, Del Piero, Montella. Hardly under strength considering every Int. team will have a few missing players. That was not far off their first XI.
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Giggs
Jan 22, 2018 10:18:03 GMT
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Post by conwy10 on Jan 22, 2018 10:18:03 GMT
A few things about that. 1. Savage supporting Giggs is a big indication we've probably got it wrong. 2. I didn't know that Savage played for Man United, why doesn't he remind us at every opportunity? He always seems to squeeze it in somewhere - "I've just made some toast" "oh yeah when I was at Manchester United I made toast too". 3. How many people will be invited into the Wales squad and need to be convinced by the manager? I assume they'll want to play for Wales and report for duty. 4. You can respect what he's achieved in football without giving him the main job. I appreciate the work my mechanic does but it doesn't mean I need to make him managing director of a factory, he could just be good at what he does. When I want to appreciate Giggs I'll watch videos of Giggs playing football which was his job. 5. It's not done Hughes any harm but out of Hughes/Wales who benefited more from that? I'll be harsh we got some really good results against similar teams to us, beat an under strength Italy and then fell into the play offs. We lost 3 times and finished 2nd and it was seen as a success, we just lost once and failed to get a play off spot and it was considered a failure. This is so negative. I particularly take exception with the under strength Italy part come on look at the side they had out that day: Buffon, Panucci, Cannavaro, Nesta, Zauri, Di Biagio, Ambrosini, Pirlo, Tommasi, Del Piero, Montella. Hardly under strength considering every Int. team will have a few missing players. That was not far off their first XI. Don't get me wrong I loved it at the time but I've always felt they were missing some big players. The way we played that match we were on fire, we probably would have beaten them with Maldini, Inzaghi involved but we absolutely collapsed after that for the rest of Hughes reign. I thought he did really well with Wales at the time but looking back I don't think he did. I get what you mean about being negative but I feel at times you have to look at it in a negative light to really assess things. I apologise if you're offended by the comment, I was just trying to open it up for debate really.
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Giggs
Jan 22, 2018 10:53:39 GMT
Post by richierich333 on Jan 22, 2018 10:53:39 GMT
This is so negative. I particularly take exception with the under strength Italy part come on look at the side they had out that day: Buffon, Panucci, Cannavaro, Nesta, Zauri, Di Biagio, Ambrosini, Pirlo, Tommasi, Del Piero, Montella. Hardly under strength considering every Int. team will have a few missing players. That was not far off their first XI. Don't get me wrong I loved it at the time but I've always felt they were missing some big players. The way we played that match we were on fire, we probably would have beaten them with Maldini, Inzaghi involved but we absolutely collapsed after that for the rest of Hughes reign. I thought he did really well with Wales at the time but looking back I don't think he did. I get what you mean about being negative but I feel at times you have to look at it in a negative light to really assess things. I apologise if you're offended by the comment, I was just trying to open it up for debate really. I just think we need to all look forward now Conwy I'm not offended at all. I have gone from sitting on the fence to being optimistic about the times ahead. You can't deny the kids will love having Giggsy around the place. Even the older ones will have had his picture on their bedroom walls.
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Giggs
Jan 22, 2018 12:00:05 GMT
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Post by conwy10 on Jan 22, 2018 12:00:05 GMT
Don't get me wrong I loved it at the time but I've always felt they were missing some big players. The way we played that match we were on fire, we probably would have beaten them with Maldini, Inzaghi involved but we absolutely collapsed after that for the rest of Hughes reign. I thought he did really well with Wales at the time but looking back I don't think he did. I get what you mean about being negative but I feel at times you have to look at it in a negative light to really assess things. I apologise if you're offended by the comment, I was just trying to open it up for debate really. I just think we need to all look forward now Conwy I'm not offended at all. I have gone from sitting on the fence to being optimistic about the times ahead. You can't deny the kids will love having Giggsy around the place. Even the older ones will have had his picture on their bedroom walls. He is a legend, no doubt about it, I used to idolise him as a kid as a player, I've just got major concerns over the future with him as manager. Even the ones who wanted Giggs usually said the dream team of Giggs and Osian, now it's looking like Osian won't be involved. To me it seems like it's getting worse and at what stage are the FAW going to step in and say we've got this successful structure, we want you to lead this not revolutionise it.
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Post by richierich333 on Jan 22, 2018 12:20:37 GMT
I think we all want Osh to stay, I hope he will be kept on in some shape or form.
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Giggs
Jan 22, 2018 12:49:09 GMT
Post by phillywelsh83 on Jan 22, 2018 12:49:09 GMT
Giggs featured in a total of 10 friendlies for Wales out of a possible 40 (25%) - scoring one goal against Finland in 2000. 0.1 goals per friendly ratio. Bale has featured in 15 friendlies so far out of a possible 36 (41%) - scoring three goals against Norway, Austria and Iceland. 0.2 goals per friendly ratio. For easier reading:
| Friendly appearances (percentage attendance) | Goals in friendlies | Goals per friendly ratio | Ryan Giggs | 10 out of a possible 40 (25%) | 1 v Finland (2000) | 0.1 | Gareth Bale | 15 out of a possible 36 (41%) | 1 v Norway (2011) 1 v Austria (2013) 1 v Iceland (2014) | 0.2 |
Since playing for Madrid, Bale has only made 3 friendly games in 4.5 years (out of a possible 9). Absolutely meaningless stats really, but I thought I would share my useless research anyway! The comparable stat is the last statement, he has made 3 friendlies in 9 since joining Real Madrid. Which is a similar ratio to Giggs. It would have been less, Bale only played in the Sweden friendly because it was just before the Euros. And i have no issue with either missing friendlies. Its best for Bale to manage his injuries for the sake of his career, as it was for Giggs.
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Post by gaz on Jan 23, 2018 21:08:14 GMT
www.skysports.com/share/11218477 Interesting comment about meeting a youngster to try an get him on board who has come through wales age group. Sounds as if this player may be undecided so my guess maybe rabbi mattondo at Man City
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Giggs
Jan 23, 2018 21:57:10 GMT
Post by iot on Jan 23, 2018 21:57:10 GMT
Slightly concerned about some of these comments. A lot of people were saying that Giggs' friendly record and general lack of commitment to Wales was irrelevant and to some extent I agreed with them, but in passing on his experience it seems to include passing on that lack of commitment:
"Just like with all of the other players, I'll be looking to pass on my experience from looking after myself playing into my 40s... It is all about being sensible and if Gareth has an important game for his club coming up such as Champions League quarter-final and is carrying a niggle then, if it means missing out on a training session, it is better being safe than risking him getting injured."
Also the following comments suggest to me he's going to replace all the coaches and bring in people he knows, so the likes of Scholes and Butt seem like real possibilities:
"The backroom staff will pretty much stay the same in terms of the physios and the kit man but I have been speaking to other coaches to be involved.
I want somebody with experience, preferably with international background, but most importantly that I can trust to contribute to Wales going forward."
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Giggs
Jan 23, 2018 22:06:39 GMT
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Post by gaz on Jan 23, 2018 22:06:39 GMT
Not overly confident myself from what I’ve heard and seen from him. Looking like he’s gonna break up what’s gone on for last few years but hope I’m wrong
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Giggs
Jan 23, 2018 22:08:34 GMT
Post by marsvolta on Jan 23, 2018 22:08:34 GMT
Slightly concerned about some of these comments. A lot of people were saying that Giggs' friendly record and general lack of commitment to Wales was irrelevant and to some extent I agreed with them, but in passing on his experience it seems to include passing on that lack of commitment: "Just like with all of the other players, I'll be looking to pass on my experience from looking after myself playing into my 40s... It is all about being sensible and if Gareth has an important game for his club coming up such as Champions League quarter-final and is carrying a niggle then, if it means missing out on a training session, it is better being safe than risking him getting injured." Also the following comments suggest to me he's going to replace all the coaches and bring in people he knows, so the likes of Scholes and Butt seem like real possibilities: "The backroom staff will pretty much stay the same in terms of the physios and the kit man but I have been speaking to other coaches to be involved. I want somebody with experience, preferably with international background, but most importantly that I can trust to contribute to Wales going forward." When he says he's looking for someone with 'an international background', I wonder if he means as a manager/coach or as a player? If he means management then it rules out the likes of Scholes and Butt.
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Post by cymroircarn on Jan 23, 2018 22:17:09 GMT
Slightly concerned about some of these comments. A lot of people were saying that Giggs' friendly record and general lack of commitment to Wales was irrelevant and to some extent I agreed with them, but in passing on his experience it seems to include passing on that lack of commitment: "Just like with all of the other players, I'll be looking to pass on my experience from looking after myself playing into my 40s... It is all about being sensible and if Gareth has an important game for his club coming up such as Champions League quarter-final and is carrying a niggle then, if it means missing out on a training session, it is better being safe than risking him getting injured." Also the following comments suggest to me he's going to replace all the coaches and bring in people he knows, so the likes of Scholes and Butt seem like real possibilities: "The backroom staff will pretty much stay the same in terms of the physios and the kit man but I have been speaking to other coaches to be involved. I want somebody with experience, preferably with international background, but most importantly that I can trust to contribute to Wales going forward." When he says he's looking for someone with 'an international background', I wonder if he means as a manager/coach or as a player? If he means management then it rules out the likes of Scholes and Butt. Carlos Quieroz? What’s he up to these days? Now that would be a coup! Edit: he’s managing Iran, so gone from a long shot to no shot
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Giggs
Jan 24, 2018 0:10:47 GMT
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Post by bale-droed on Jan 24, 2018 0:10:47 GMT
Matondo is the most educated guess but it could be dasilva
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Giggs
Jan 24, 2018 7:19:25 GMT
Post by yanto on Jan 24, 2018 7:19:25 GMT
I have few concerns about who he brings in if it improves on our failure to get anywhere near the world cup.
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Post by welshiron on Jan 24, 2018 7:35:47 GMT
My 2 main concerns
His first week in charge of Wales wasn't the lead story. And.
He went to watch Salford on Saturday, shouldn't he be watching players he might call up
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Giggs
Jan 24, 2018 11:48:01 GMT
Post by haruki on Jan 24, 2018 11:48:01 GMT
I hope it's not Ampadu that he met who is considering options
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Post by conwy10 on Jan 24, 2018 12:09:51 GMT
Slightly concerned about some of these comments. A lot of people were saying that Giggs' friendly record and general lack of commitment to Wales was irrelevant and to some extent I agreed with them, but in passing on his experience it seems to include passing on that lack of commitment: "Just like with all of the other players, I'll be looking to pass on my experience from looking after myself playing into my 40s... It is all about being sensible and if Gareth has an important game for his club coming up such as Champions League quarter-final and is carrying a niggle then, if it means missing out on a training session, it is better being safe than risking him getting injured." Also the following comments suggest to me he's going to replace all the coaches and bring in people he knows, so the likes of Scholes and Butt seem like real possibilities: "The backroom staff will pretty much stay the same in terms of the physios and the kit man but I have been speaking to other coaches to be involved. I want somebody with experience, preferably with international background, but most importantly that I can trust to contribute to Wales going forward." When he says he's looking for someone with 'an international background', I wonder if he means as a manager/coach or as a player? If he means management then it rules out the likes of Scholes and Butt. He should go for the Osian Roberts lad, sure he's been coaching at international level.
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Post by gaz on Jan 24, 2018 12:47:00 GMT
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Giggs
Jan 24, 2018 21:58:41 GMT
Post by pendragon on Jan 24, 2018 21:58:41 GMT
I doubt it'd be any of the "young guns" that we have now, including Ampadu and Brooks. I reckon it's someone in the under's who hasn't yet had the opportunity to graduate to the first team. I believe exposure and promotion is a very big carrot in luring these players. Although I could be wrong.
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