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Post by derynglas on Jun 16, 2019 8:52:00 GMT
We were 5th in the group for the Brazil world cup. Should have at least got to the play off for Russia with the squad we have,that was a failure really.But naturally people mainly remember the Euros.
Weve had 2 difficult games which could have gone either way but individual mistakes cost us. Bale can still come good,form is temporary,class is permanent. Maybe the youngsters will really start to come into their own next season Their attitude seems fine but their still learning off course.
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Post by fiveattheback on Jun 16, 2019 15:22:42 GMT
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Giggs
Jun 16, 2019 16:03:59 GMT
Post by pendragon on Jun 16, 2019 16:03:59 GMT
This is really worrying if true. A dip in form is one thing but a dip in form and a lack of morale is a potential recipe for disaster. However, we don't really know who the source is. The lack of form plaguing Bale and several key players missing following post-season fatigue cannot be questioned. Even so, if this is true, Giggs will need to wise up.
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Giggs
Jun 16, 2019 17:13:44 GMT
via mobile
Post by cymruramdcfc on Jun 16, 2019 17:13:44 GMT
There is no evidence in that article , 10 players who?
The euros have gone and we failed to qualify for the world cup under Coleman who played to defensive for my opinion. And alot on here at the time. The next game v Azerbaijan is critical for Wales but more important for Giggs
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Post by alarch on Jun 16, 2019 17:49:46 GMT
In an effort to give myself some belief about our prospects under Giggs I watched the 4-1 defeat of ROI again to see what we got so right in that performance and setup that has been so desperately lacking in the recent double header. I was also curious how many stated that the formation that day was 4-3-3, when my recollection was that it was a 4-2-3-1.
As far as the formation was concerned it was most definitely not a flat 4-3-3. Rather, when ROI had the ball in their own half our default position was more of 4-1-4-1 than anything, with Ampadu sitting in front of the back four and Allen and Ramsey further forwards (arguably a 4-3-3, but not in the strict sense). However, a big feature of our play throughout was the flexibility of the formation - with Allen in particular dropping back alongside Ampadu, when ROI advanced into our half. Although Ampadu rarely strayed from in front of the back four he did so with great effect when he robbed Walters inside the ROI half and fed Ramsey perfectly for his goal. Ramsey, less frequently dropped deep, especially into the second half, with less effect, with his poor control outside our box gifting ROIs goal. But overall the pattern was clear, Ampadu playing in front of the back four, Ramsey behind Bale and Allen flitting intelligently backwards and forwards.
The same pattern was manifest in possession. When ROI pressed high Allen dropped back to offer an extra passing option for Hennessey or the back four, otherwise he remained further forward, next to Ramsey.
The upshot of the flexible formation was a superbly fluid dynamic performance, where we zipped the ball around, predominantly with short-passing triangles. Where we hit the ball long we did so mainly to players standing in space, via long diagonals (mainly from Ampadu and Smith when he came on), or the sublime straightish 60 yarder from Davies to Bale that led to Bale's goal. There was very little in the way of hit and hope hoofball, or passing long into the feet of closely marked players, in stark contrast to what we saw in the recent double-header.
People could say that we only did so well because ROI were so poor. It's impossible to know for sure, but I don't think ROI were that bad - we were just very, very good, with Ampadu, Roberts and Mepham - all competitive debutants - outstanding.
Giggs rightly got and merited a lot of praise for that performance, the brave team selection, and our tactical approach. It set a very high benchmark for his tenure - which makes it such a mystery why he's deviated so far from that template. Injuries have played their part for sure - but it's worth noting that Ramsey was one of the more peripheral players in the 4-1 win. However injuries alone cannot account for some frankly weird decisions, such as going out to Denmark immediately after that wonderful performance and adopting a 4-4-2 formation, with Bale and Ramsey up front. Away. To Denmark. Who excel at 4-2-3-1. WTF. There were some issues with Brooks I recall, but we could have stuck to the same formation and similar personnel by moving Bale to the wing and bringing Vokes into the team. In the defensive phase we were virtually playing a 4-4-0 at times - such was the poverty of Bale and Ramsey's defensive work. That was very evident in Ericksen's opener.
You really couldn't get more of a contrast between that ROI performance and the double-header games, where we were so listless and directionless, and with such a poor tactical setup. What was the idea behind playing such a defensively weak right side of Bale, Vaulks (who's a box-to-box midfielder not a defensive mid) and Roberts, up against Croatia's strongest outlet - in Perisic? Why did we set up to play such long passes to feet out of defence, leading to Croatia's second? Why, against Hungary, did we seem so unprepared for their approach in sitting deep and denying us space to counter-attack into? The Hungarian manager even flagged up before the game that he understood the threat presented by James, so their setup was hardly out of the blue.
I'm depressing myself again - so I'll stop. That ROI performance showed that Giggs can get it right. He needs to stop fannying around with formations and personnel. If Ampadu isn't available we should make sure we play round pegs in round holes, and adopt a formation that the players are comfortable and familiar with. The magic formula is already in our possession - we just need to use it consistently from now on.
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Post by allezlesrouges on Jun 16, 2019 18:41:19 GMT
In an effort to give myself some belief about our prospects under Giggs I watched the 4-1 defeat of ROI again to see what we got so right in that performance and setup that has been so desperately lacking in the recent double header. I was also curious how many stated that the formation that day was 4-3-3, when my recollection was that it was a 4-2-3-1. As far as the formation was concerned it was most definitely not a flat 4-3-3. Rather, when ROI had the ball in their own half our default position was more of 4-1-4-1 than anything, with Ampadu sitting in front of the back four and Allen and Ramsey further forwards (arguably a 4-3-3, but not in the strict sense). However, a big feature of our play throughout was the flexibility of the formation - with Allen in particular dropping back alongside Ampadu, when ROI advanced into our half. Although Ampadu rarely strayed from in front of the back four he did so with great effect when he robbed Walters inside the ROI half and fed Ramsey perfectly for his goal. Ramsey, less frequently dropped deep, especially into the second half, with less effect, with his poor control outside our box gifting ROIs goal. But overall the pattern was clear, Ampadu playing in front of the back four, Ramsey behind Bale and Allen flitting intelligently backwards and forwards. The same pattern was manifest in possession. When ROI pressed high Allen dropped back to offer an extra passing option for Hennessey or the back four, otherwise he remained further forward, next to Ramsey. The upshot of the flexible formation was a superbly fluid dynamic performance, where we zipped the ball around, predominantly with short-passing triangles. Where we hit the ball long we did so mainly to players standing in space, via long diagonals (mainly from Ampadu and Smith when he came on), or the sublime straightish 60 yarder from Davies to Bale that led to Bale's goal. There was very little in the way of hit and hope hoofball, or passing long into the feet of closely marked players, in stark contrast to what we saw in the recent double-header. People could say that we only did so well because ROI were so poor. It's impossible to know for sure, but I don't think ROI were that bad - we were just very, very good, with Ampadu, Roberts and Mepham - all competitive debutants - outstanding. Giggs rightly got and merited a lot of praise for that performance, the brave team selection, and our tactical approach. It set a very high benchmark for his tenure - which makes it such a mystery why he's deviated so far from that template. Injuries have played their part for sure - but it's worth noting that Ramsey was one of the more peripheral players in the 4-1 win. However injuries alone cannot account for some frankly weird decisions, such as going out to Denmark immediately after that wonderful performance and adopting a 4-4-2 formation, with Bale and Ramsey up front. Away. To Denmark. Who excel at 4-2-3-1. WTF. There were some issues with Brooks I recall, but we could have stuck to the same formation and similar personnel by moving Bale to the wing and bringing Vokes into the team. In the defensive phase we were virtually playing a 4-4-0 at times - such was the poverty of Bale and Ramsey's defensive work. That was very evident in Ericksen's opener. You really couldn't get more of a contrast between that ROI performance and the double-header games, where we were so listless and directionless, and with such a poor tactical setup. What was the idea behind playing such a defensively weak right side of Bale, Vaulks (who's a box-to-box midfielder not a defensive mid) and Roberts, up against Croatia's strongest outlet - in Perisic? Why did we set up to play such long passes to feet out of defence, leading to Croatia's second? Why, against Hungary, did we seem so unprepared for their approach in sitting deep and denying us space to counter-attack into? The Hungarian manager even flagged up before the game that he understood the threat presented by James, so their setup was hardly out of the blue. I'm depressing myself again - so I'll stop. That ROI performance showed that Giggs can get it right. He needs to stop fannying around with formations and personnel. If Ampadu isn't available we should make sure we play round pegs in round holes, and adopt a formation that the players are comfortable and familiar with. The magic formula is already in our possession - we just need to use it consistently from now on. With this in mind, and given the players we had available for the Croatia game (i.e no Ramsey, Ampadu or Brooks), what would your 4-2-3-1 have looked like against them in terms of personnel?
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Giggs
Jun 16, 2019 18:44:11 GMT
Post by pendragon on Jun 16, 2019 18:44:11 GMT
I agree with the points you have raised with regards to the home ROI game in the Nations League. The performances in the recent double-header could not have been more chalk and cheese - and as with the Denmark game a few days later, I think one clue lies in the change of personnel in a very short amount of time. The Denmark away approach looked haphazard, as did Croatia and Hungary away. Even though we lost the Denmark home game, I do think it was an improvement on our previous encounter. My impression was that we looked threatening until Dummett had to be replaced during the first quarter. Furthermore, despite having a poor away record, I was relatively impressed with our performance against Ireland in the Nations League during a "must-win" game for both sides, particularly given the fact that we were heavily depleted. I would argue that Ireland are a stronger side than Hungary. Their players are a mixture of Premiership and Championship players, which on paper, is possibly superior to Hungary's credentials. The same could certainly be said about Slovakia (although we possessed the home advantage in March). Furthermore, the pace of both of those games seemed far quicker than the one we played in Budapest, so clearly we have the personnel to have at least rescued a point away from home.
So here's what I think Giggs needs to do to turn things around: - Strip it right down - draw up our best starting eleven, barring injuries. Obviously a contingency is needed for injuries etc, but the only thing that might require a change between games is formation (ie. slightly more defensive against stronger opposition), not personnel - I don't know how much input Osian has in team decisions etc but I would hope that they are able to be open with another. If not, things need to change. If it's possible to talk to other successful coaches in the business, all the better - Re-build rapport with the team if needs be - Get the squad playing as a team once more with well defined roles (I may be wrong but this element doesn't seem so apparent now in comparison to pre-Euro 2016).
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Deleted
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Giggs
Jun 16, 2019 19:24:07 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2019 19:24:07 GMT
There is no evidence in that article , 10 players who? The euros have gone and we failed to qualify for the world cup under Coleman who played to defensive for my opinion. And alot on here at the time. The next game v Azerbaijan is critical for Wales but more important for Giggs My money's on Big Ash and Neil Taylor like every time there was a story like this about Swansea. Love a moan to the press the pair of them.
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Giggs
Jun 16, 2019 19:48:54 GMT
Post by iot on Jun 16, 2019 19:48:54 GMT
In an effort to give myself some belief about our prospects under Giggs I watched the 4-1 defeat of ROI again to see what we got so right in that performance and setup that has been so desperately lacking in the recent double header. I was also curious how many stated that the formation that day was 4-3-3, when my recollection was that it was a 4-2-3-1. As far as the formation was concerned it was most definitely not a flat 4-3-3. Rather, when ROI had the ball in their own half our default position was more of 4-1-4-1 than anything, with Ampadu sitting in front of the back four and Allen and Ramsey further forwards (arguably a 4-3-3, but not in the strict sense). However, a big feature of our play throughout was the flexibility of the formation - with Allen in particular dropping back alongside Ampadu, when ROI advanced into our half. Although Ampadu rarely strayed from in front of the back four he did so with great effect when he robbed Walters inside the ROI half and fed Ramsey perfectly for his goal. Ramsey, less frequently dropped deep, especially into the second half, with less effect, with his poor control outside our box gifting ROIs goal. But overall the pattern was clear, Ampadu playing in front of the back four, Ramsey behind Bale and Allen flitting intelligently backwards and forwards. The same pattern was manifest in possession. When ROI pressed high Allen dropped back to offer an extra passing option for Hennessey or the back four, otherwise he remained further forward, next to Ramsey. The upshot of the flexible formation was a superbly fluid dynamic performance, where we zipped the ball around, predominantly with short-passing triangles. Where we hit the ball long we did so mainly to players standing in space, via long diagonals (mainly from Ampadu and Smith when he came on), or the sublime straightish 60 yarder from Davies to Bale that led to Bale's goal. There was very little in the way of hit and hope hoofball, or passing long into the feet of closely marked players, in stark contrast to what we saw in the recent double-header. People could say that we only did so well because ROI were so poor. It's impossible to know for sure, but I don't think ROI were that bad - we were just very, very good, with Ampadu, Roberts and Mepham - all competitive debutants - outstanding. Giggs rightly got and merited a lot of praise for that performance, the brave team selection, and our tactical approach. It set a very high benchmark for his tenure - which makes it such a mystery why he's deviated so far from that template. Injuries have played their part for sure - but it's worth noting that Ramsey was one of the more peripheral players in the 4-1 win. However injuries alone cannot account for some frankly weird decisions, such as going out to Denmark immediately after that wonderful performance and adopting a 4-4-2 formation, with Bale and Ramsey up front. Away. To Denmark. Who excel at 4-2-3-1. WTF. There were some issues with Brooks I recall, but we could have stuck to the same formation and similar personnel by moving Bale to the wing and bringing Vokes into the team. In the defensive phase we were virtually playing a 4-4-0 at times - such was the poverty of Bale and Ramsey's defensive work. That was very evident in Ericksen's opener. You really couldn't get more of a contrast between that ROI performance and the double-header games, where we were so listless and directionless, and with such a poor tactical setup. What was the idea behind playing such a defensively weak right side of Bale, Vaulks (who's a box-to-box midfielder not a defensive mid) and Roberts, up against Croatia's strongest outlet - in Perisic? Why did we set up to play such long passes to feet out of defence, leading to Croatia's second? Why, against Hungary, did we seem so unprepared for their approach in sitting deep and denying us space to counter-attack into? The Hungarian manager even flagged up before the game that he understood the threat presented by James, so their setup was hardly out of the blue. I'm depressing myself again - so I'll stop. That ROI performance showed that Giggs can get it right. He needs to stop fannying around with formations and personnel. If Ampadu isn't available we should make sure we play round pegs in round holes, and adopt a formation that the players are comfortable and familiar with. The magic formula is already in our possession - we just need to use it consistently from now on. I always enjoy your posts alarch and find them thoughtful. However, if you don't mind me saying, I think you are guilty of overthinking things at times You seem to think the way we play in games is always by design, whereas I think it's more often than not reactionary and disrupted by opponents. Anyone who's played football knows you go out trying to play a certain way, but it's not always possible. My main gripe is your constant references to "hoofball". I suspect that Giggs is hopelessly out of his depth as a manager, but I don't believe for one second that even he tells the team to go out playing route 1 up to james, bale and brooks. I suspect we always go out trying to play good possession football, but against teams who have a good pressing game we often don't have the ability to cope with it, panic and hoof it as a last resort. Against hungary there was no excuse as they weren't playing a particularly good pressing game, I think we had just lost the plot. I'm going to make a very controversial comment, verging on heresy! When we play these hopeless long balls, people always blame the player who's sent it long - more often than not hennessey. However, other players, particularly our midfielders, are just as liable if they don't give them a solid option. When Joe Allen was with swansea, he was brilliant at constantly offering himself with the confidence and ability to 99 times out of a hundred take the ball in dangerous areas and moving the play up the field. However, I'm not exactly sure when it was, but these last few seasons he's largely stopped doing that. I watched him closely when he was with stoke in their last PL season, and whether by instruction or not, he never went looking for the ball and seemed to shy away from it. He's not quite the same for Wales, but he's not half as good as he used to be in going looking for the ball, making sure we keep hold of it and get us up the field. I think that's part of the reason we often resort to hoofball - out of panic when we don't have any options at the back more than anything else.
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Giggs
Jun 16, 2019 20:22:05 GMT
via mobile
Post by cymruramdcfc on Jun 16, 2019 20:22:05 GMT
We wanted all these young up coming players and they have struggled plus bale demise and loss of Ramsey will have consequences on and nation our size. There no doubting Giggs inexperienced added to this makes it worse.
Giggs will be judged if we fail
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Post by conwy10 on Jun 16, 2019 21:04:06 GMT
There is no evidence in that article , 10 players who? The euros have gone and we failed to qualify for the world cup under Coleman who played to defensive for my opinion. And alot on here at the time. The next game v Azerbaijan is critical for Wales but more important for Giggs Literally were only losing for 30 mins that whole campaign, we failed agreed but it wasn’t as embarrassing as this. I hated how defensive we were but I felt we should have just fine tuned it. Giggs is catastrophically failing, we’re nearly eliminated after 4 matches.
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Post by cadno on Jun 16, 2019 21:38:54 GMT
It's been said before, maybe the area Giggs needs to improve in most is his man management / people skills? That's an interesting point about Joe Allen iot, although I can't say it's something I've picked up on myself. A good manager / captain has belief in all their players, they lift everyone around them and give them confidence on and off the pitch. It's been neccessary to bring the young players through, but maybe the way it's been handled has had a negative effect on some of the older players mentality, thus we have lost the cohesion we used to have on the pitch, where players would fight for eachother on the pitch. You can put that down as players fault or the manager of a bit of both. How you sort it out I'm not quite sure. Maybe I'm looking into things too much now 🤣.
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Giggs
Jun 16, 2019 21:52:18 GMT
via mobile
Post by cadno on Jun 16, 2019 21:52:18 GMT
Against Croatia...
Hennessey Mepham Williams Lawrence Gunter Allen Smith Taylor Bale Vokes James
That 11 would've given us more protection defensively, added with the experience/leadership of Williams, Taylor and Gunter.
Vokes would've been a decent outlet.
Brooks and Ampadu could have come on when needed. And Jonny Williams should have been an option on the bench.
A vaulable draw game was there for the taking, especially with the hot weather.
Wrong thread? 🙃
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Giggs
Jun 16, 2019 22:35:02 GMT
via mobile
Post by cymruramdcfc on Jun 16, 2019 22:35:02 GMT
What input has osian got? He was big input with colman and I assume he has big input now? As part of the management team he seems to be with out criticism? If Giggs isn't taken his input surely he would have left?
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Giggs
Jun 16, 2019 23:01:07 GMT
Post by alarch on Jun 16, 2019 23:01:07 GMT
Ok, so my thread has been merged with this one. Bit annoying, because it meant that my lengthy response to iot's comment above vanished when I submitted it.
To summarise, my main critique from the Croatia game, was our tendency to play excessively long balls along the floor to feet, rather than hoofballs - which I would define as long balls in the air, to a player who is closely marked, where the expectation is that you win less than 50% of the resulting possession. Although hoofball isn't a major facet of our play, it's still very much in the mix, and partly intentional. Right from the kick-off in the Hungary game we hoofed the ball out to Bale on the wing - and duly lost possession. What a way of waste of possession. Also, there was another instance where Hennessey, with ball in hand, ushered the defenders downfield, before proceeding to hoof the ball down the middle - to none other than Dan James in the number 9 position. He didn't even bother competing for the ball, and I don't blame him. That was a crime against football. Any manager who believed in a possession-based game would be livid at those two actions - unless of course that was a part of the game plan.
I really don't understand your point about Allen, iot. He's been our most consistent performer since the Euros, and continues to the one consistent shining light in the middle of the park. It's true that he has a different, more attacking role for Stoke (reflected in more goals and assists), but that doesn't really translate to his performances for Wales. Where his impact has been more limited he's often been isolated, and to get the best out of players like Allen, you really need players with similar skillsets playing alongside him. This was the case with Ampadu in the ROI game and Smith in the Slovakia game. In the Croatia game the distance between the flat 3 in midfield and the back four was too great to make that Smith-Allen function as it could have, had they been closer to the back four.
Giggs really needs to have the humility to recognise where he's gone wrong in this double-header. It should make it easier for him to rectify his mistakes that he's got it so right in the ROI game. It's not as if he needs to start from scratch - just implement once again what we know works.
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Giggs
Jun 17, 2019 7:08:27 GMT
Post by biwmares on Jun 17, 2019 7:08:27 GMT
What input has osian got? He was big input with colman and I assume he has big input now? As part of the management team he seems to be with out criticism? If Giggs isn't taken his input surely he would have left? Possibly the problem is with the composition of his backroom team. Stuivenburg,Strudwick, Roberts are they strong enough to point out to Giggs the error of his ways/tactics? If not then the FAW need to act and pronto.
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Giggs
Jun 17, 2019 7:51:31 GMT
Post by pendragon on Jun 17, 2019 7:51:31 GMT
There is no evidence in that article , 10 players who? The euros have gone and we failed to qualify for the world cup under Coleman who played to defensive for my opinion. And alot on here at the time. The next game v Azerbaijan is critical for Wales but more important for Giggs My money's on Big Ash and Neil Taylor like every time there was a story like this about Swansea. Love a moan to the press the pair of them. Or someone like James Lawrence, if he felt he was under attack following the two goals. However, it needn't even be one of the players, it could have been one of the backroom staff unhappy with the way things are going.
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Giggs
Jun 17, 2019 9:23:24 GMT
Post by cymruramdcfc on Jun 17, 2019 9:23:24 GMT
What input has osian got? He was big input with colman and I assume he has big input now? As part of the management team he seems to be with out criticism? If Giggs isn't taken his input surely he would have left? Possibly the problem is with the composition of his backroom team. Stuivenburg,Strudwick, Roberts are they strong enough to point out to Giggs the error of his ways/tactics? If not then the FAW need to act and pronto. surely Giggs would be taking in Osian input if not i agree FAW should look into it its either Roberts sitting back or Giggs not listening
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Giggs
Jun 17, 2019 10:55:28 GMT
Post by BA Baracus on Jun 17, 2019 10:55:28 GMT
Click on the reporter's byline and it shows his most recent stories, including an interview with a Welsh international who played at Euro 2016. #justsaying
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Post by welshiron on Jun 17, 2019 11:50:55 GMT
Too technical for me.
Who did he interview?
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Post by alarch on Jun 17, 2019 12:30:34 GMT
Jonny Williams: www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-7070643/Charltons-Iniesta-Jonny-Williams-pass-final-test-against-Sunderland.htmlIt's worth saying though that the article about Giggs talks of an "insider" rather than a "player" on the inside, as being the source. So, it could be any member of the playing or non-playing staff. Could easily be a case of putting two and two together and making 5. The most interesting thing for me about that interview with Jonny Williams was this bit: "Manager Lee Bowyer, a top midfielder in his playing days, gave him important advice on cutting down on injuries. 'He has helped keep me available for as many matches as possible,' says Williams. 'There are times when I got into silly tackles but he has told me there is a time and a place to fly in. It's not life or death to win a throw." Christ, if he'd followed this forum he could have read that advice years ago, and saved himself a lot of grief...
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Giggs
Jun 17, 2019 14:40:08 GMT
Post by foxmulder on Jun 17, 2019 14:40:08 GMT
Don't worry about that article. It's from the Daily Mail ie... fucking bullshit.
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Giggs
Jun 17, 2019 14:46:00 GMT
Post by fiveattheback on Jun 17, 2019 14:46:00 GMT
The Daily Mail's sport is pretty good
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Post by jackanapes on Jun 17, 2019 14:54:00 GMT
Obviously I don't watch the Wales team training but I think it's fairly clear from recent games that Giggs doesn't do much work on team shape. It is absolutely vital both for defensive solidity and to create a good passing team. Players need to know what positions to take up, when to fill in when certain players break forward, midfielders and forwards need to know what movement is required to ensure good passing angles when playing out from the back. Coleman did a huge amount of work on the defensive shape and there was almost always someone covering if Gunter or Taylor ventured forward (for example).
You mentioned Jo Allen - he's a great player but has suffered somewhat in his choice of club! That aside people underestimate the amount of drilling needed to play a passing game. At Swansea's peak Martinez, Rodgers and Laudrup did a lot of work on team shape and movement - you might think that players should 'know' how to make space and create passing angles, but constant work on this makes it second nature and allows you to trust your team mates to be available. Last season Potter did a lot of this so that by mid season a bunch of kids were passing teams like Norwich off the park (unfortunately there was a bit more needed to actually win games!). The point being - none of this happens by accident, it requires work.
Based on the evidence of Giggs' games (and my uninformed prejudice) I suspect:
1. We don't do enough on team shape (defensively or offensively) 2. There is no consistent approach to team play and tactics which makes it virtually impossible for players to adapt to a settled style. 3. Personnel changes, particularly unecessary ones, have undermined cohesion. Maybe he's trying to be a bit too clever. 4. Giggs has no track record and his experience is of working with elite players who (I suspect) need less direction than the majority of players (particularly the types we have). 5. Giggs wasn't particularly conscientious himself about the defensive part of his game. He frequently left our left backs isolated 2 on 1 and often gave the ball away in suicidal positions (Austria at home being a particularly egregious example). You get bailed out at Man Utd by top players, not so with Wales. I'm not sure he knows how to put these situations right beyond blaming players. 6. His ego may not allow him to see his limitations. I haven't seen or heard anything to suggest he has the humility to recognise his own mistakes. Given the lack of clear game plan I felt it was harsh to blame the players the way he did.
It's no accident that the most successful Welsh managers of the last 30 years (Yorath and Coleman) understood the need for well drilled teams and consistent selection (where possible). After Coleman I would have liked to have seen someone experienced who could build on our defensive solidity and develop our ability to control and dictate games with passing football. Bar the Ireland game we haven't seen it.
I think this could get a whole lot worse before it gets better. Such a shame because we have the exact blend of youth and experience needed for success. It's painful to watch it being wasted.
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Giggs
Jun 17, 2019 15:03:35 GMT
Post by alarch on Jun 17, 2019 15:03:35 GMT
Obviously I don't watch the Wales team training but I think it's fairly clear from recent games that Giggs doesn't do much work on team shape. It is absolutely vital both for defensive solidity and to create a good passing team. Players need to know what positions to take up, when to fill in when certain players break forward, midfielders and forwards need to know what movement is required to ensure good passing angles when playing out from the back. Coleman did a huge amount of work on the defensive shape and there was almost always someone covering if Gunter or Taylor ventured forward (for example). You mentioned Jo Allen - he's a great player but has suffered somewhat in his choice of club! That aside people underestimate the amount of drilling needed to play a passing game. At Swansea's peak Martinez, Rodgers and Laudrup did a lot of work on team shape and movement - you might think that players should 'know' how to make space and create passing angles, but constant work on this makes it second nature and allows you to trust your team mates to be available. Last season Potter did a lot of this so that by mid season a bunch of kids were passing teams like Norwich off the park (unfortunately there was a bit more needed to actually win games!). The point being - none of this happens by accident, it requires work. Based on the evidence of Giggs' games (and my uninformed prejudice) I suspect: 1. We don't do enough on team shape (defensively or offensively) 2. There is no consistent approach to team play and tactics which makes it virtually impossible for players to adapt to a settled style. 3. Personnel changes, particularly unecessary ones, have undermined cohesion. Maybe he's trying to be a bit too clever. 4. Giggs has no track record and his experience is of working with elite players who (I suspect) need less direction than the majority of players (particularly the types we have). 5. Giggs wasn't particularly conscientious himself about the defensive part of his game. He frequently left our left backs isolated 2 on 1 and often gave the ball away in suicidal positions (Austria at home being a particularly egregious example). You get bailed out at Man Utd by top players, not so with Wales. I'm not sure he knows how to put these situations right beyond blaming players. 6. His ego may not allow him to see his limitations. I haven't seen or heard anything to suggest he has the humility to recognise his own mistakes. Given the lack of clear game plan I felt it was harsh to blame the players the way he did. It's no accident that the most successful Welsh managers of the last 30 years (Yorath and Coleman) understood the need for well drilled teams and consistent selection (where possible). After Coleman I would have liked to have seen someone experienced who could build on our defensive solidity and develop our ability to control and dictate games with passing football. Bar the Ireland game we haven't seen it. I think this could get a whole lot worse before it gets better. Such a shame because we have the exact blend of youth and experience needed for success. It's painful to watch it being wasted. A strong contender for post of the year. Couldn't agree more. One of the reasons that ROI 4-1 victory went so well is down to Joe Allen's positional movement, giving us the fluidity and flexibility to transition from defence to attack and vice versa. A player of his intelligence and experience doesn't need to be coached to perform such a role - but unfortunately the same can't be said of many other players in the squad, even those of the calibre of Aaron Ramsey. This can be rectified with the right direction and drilling, but is Giggs up to the task?
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Post by 1gwaunview on Jun 17, 2019 15:30:34 GMT
No idea what input Giggs' assistants have, but Osian Roberts looked as miserable as sin during the last two games. Totally different to Coleman's time when he was back and fore from the bench all game passing on info.
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Post by pendragon on Jun 17, 2019 16:17:48 GMT
I don't either. It may be that he has input but that the strategy failed anyway, it might be that Osh doesn't speak up often enough or that Giggs doesn't listen. Whatever the case, the FAW need to urgently establish what is going on and resolve it.
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Post by CrackityJones on Jun 17, 2019 16:45:34 GMT
I'm putting my money on Giggs doesn't listen.
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Giggs
Jun 17, 2019 17:45:35 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2019 17:45:35 GMT
Obviously I don't watch the Wales team training but I think it's fairly clear from recent games that Giggs doesn't do much work on team shape. It is absolutely vital both for defensive solidity and to create a good passing team. Players need to know what positions to take up, when to fill in when certain players break forward, midfielders and forwards need to know what movement is required to ensure good passing angles when playing out from the back. Coleman did a huge amount of work on the defensive shape and there was almost always someone covering if Gunter or Taylor ventured forward (for example). You mentioned Jo Allen - he's a great player but has suffered somewhat in his choice of club! That aside people underestimate the amount of drilling needed to play a passing game. At Swansea's peak Martinez, Rodgers and Laudrup did a lot of work on team shape and movement - you might think that players should 'know' how to make space and create passing angles, but constant work on this makes it second nature and allows you to trust your team mates to be available. Last season Potter did a lot of this so that by mid season a bunch of kids were passing teams like Norwich off the park (unfortunately there was a bit more needed to actually win games!). The point being - none of this happens by accident, it requires work. That "bunch of kids" had been playing that style of football through youth levels for years. Plus they're bloody good footballers, not some randoms he hauled in off a local park. DJ won't be the first to go for £10/15m+. Won a lot of games doing it, too. Undefeated at home since the turn of the year (the Man City game doesn't count).
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Post by jackanapes on Jun 17, 2019 18:12:02 GMT
[/quote]That "bunch of kids" had been playing that style of football through youth levels for years. Plus they're bloody good footballers, not some randoms he hauled in off a local park. DJ won't be the first to go for £10/15m+.
Won a lot of games doing it, too. Undefeated at home since the turn of the year (the Man City game doesn't count).[/quote]
Well that's true - they had been playing that style (or similar) for years but they couldn't produce it consistently at first team level at the start of the season. They were significantly better by the end of the year and that was down to coaching as much as experience. They are certainly good footballers - my point was good players still need good coaching to succeed and I'd say Potter's Swansea was a good example of this.
Who do you think would get more out of this Wales squad - Giggs or Potter?
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