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Giggs
Jun 12, 2019 12:34:21 GMT
Post by richierich333 on Jun 12, 2019 12:34:21 GMT
Has Giggs given a post-match conference? I haven't been able to bring myself to look at any post-match reviews etc but I wonder whether he's provided any insight from his point of view. I do wonder whether many of our players were battling with fitness problems. When I saw him give an interview before the game, it had me worried. He seemed stressed and flustered. If this was the case, then it came across in our team's display. If he's going to stay, he needs to reflect long and hard over the summer, perhaps bring in some additional coaching from someone who knows what they are doing. If changes are required, now is the time to make them. There's one on BBC sport but I can't bring myself to watch it and hear the excuses about fatigue, sharpness, the direction of the wind etc.
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Post by nwcherries on Jun 12, 2019 13:11:44 GMT
Yeah this is probably your biggest problem, and it's obviously compounded with the constant chopping and changing. I don't think Giggs is a horrific manager or anything, but there are lots of things going against you at the moment that are kind of stacking up. Players like Ramsey, Brooks and Ampadu are either injured or not quite fit enough to play well, you have the Bale situation and you have a novice manager who's clearly still learning on the job. If even one of these problems were solved the situation would probably not look as bleak as it does; Bale has shown in the past that he can individually pull results out of his arse, and with all your best players available there's not a chance in hell you lose to Hungary IMO, even with Giggs in charge. In terms of your philosophy, I think you lot should be trying to play fast, counterattacking football. You have ball winners like Allen and Ampadu, engines like Ramsey and sheer pace and creativity in the likes of Bale, James and Brooks. You don't have the players for this tikki takka nonsense, you should be playing to your strengths. --------------Hennessey-------------- Roberts--Mepham--Williams--Davies ---------Ampadu---------Allen--------- Brooks---------Ramsey---------James ------------------Bale------------------ I agreed with the first bit of your post but profoundly disagree with the latter. Of course we have the quality to play a possession-based, short passing game. Tiki taka is an extreme manifestation of that approach, there are other ways of implementing a possession-based, short-passing game than that exemplified by Barcelona under Guardiola. Not even Guardiola's City play that way any more - but there is still very much an emphasis on retaining possession and building through the thirds, albeit with greater intensity and "verticality" than under Guardiola's Barca. Potter showed this season with Swansea how it's possible to play a possession-based, short-passing game with meagre resources. It should be so much easier for Wales with Joe Allen, Ramsey, Brooks, Ampadu, Smith and Jonny Williams at our disposal. By all accounts Swansea are about to appoint Cooper, from Pontypridd, as manager. A huge risk for sure, but the right sort of risk, given his coaching pedigree. Wales could have appointed him - but instead we went for a big name with no track record in coaching or management, with no discernible philosophy. A completely wrong-headed approach. We should identify a style of play and recruit to that style, even if it means taking a punt on a complete unknown, up-and-coming coach. Oh, well, we only have to wait another three years, before we fail to take that approach again. Fair points. I suppose what I should have said is that I think the players you currently have would be more suited to counterattacking than a possession-based style. That's not to say that you don't have the quality to be that type of team or anything, you definitely do, just that IMO your best players all seem to have the perfect attributes for counterattacking (e.g. hard-working, ball winning, quick and technical). And completely agree with the bolded bit, whatever philosophy you want, it's important to have actually have one, no matter what it ends up being.
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Giggs
Jun 12, 2019 15:03:37 GMT
Post by aberbeeg on Jun 12, 2019 15:03:37 GMT
Uraguay ( in China) Denmark away, Denmark home,Albania away,Croatia away,Hungary away.....there is definitely a pattern occurring which Giggs doesn’t seem capable of stopping.
Get rid now
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Post by iot on Jun 12, 2019 15:42:49 GMT
You knew what you would get with Coleman - a fully pumped up team with everyone understanding their role, a coherent gameplan (even if a little conservative) and getting the basics right. The difference with Giggs is chalk and cheese. We seem to be lost, the players don't look confident, and the lack of the basics is the most worrying - it doesn't look like the players understand their roles. How many individual set piece takers did we have yesterday? It seemed to change with every free kick and corner taker, from brooks, to James to Allen etc.
There is no cohesion, unsurprisingly with so many changes, just muddled thinking.
There was no bravery on the ball either - we pumped it long so many times when Hungary weren't particularly using a high press. We would pump it long to bale in open play or at free kicks and there would be no one following up, as if nothing had been planned at all. You hear that some of the big managers, the likes of Mourinho, are absoultely meticulous and try to plan for every eventuality and instruct players on how to approach the game under different scenarios. You hear of the endless hours Bielsa spends analysing the opposition and planning for each game. I can't imagine Giggs doing any of those things. He's had weeks with the team including a week to prepare out in Portugal so there is no excuse for the complete lack of gameplan. Perhaps that was the issue, all international managers had an unusually long period of time to spend with their sides so their individual merits as managers probably counted more this round than it usually does, and that's where we fall well short of the competition.
I think that's the worst I've ever felt after a game. I'm absolutely gutted. In all likelihood, we now have to wait 2 years for our next meaningful game because I can't see giggs getting the 5 wins needed from this campaign.
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Giggs
Jun 12, 2019 16:07:18 GMT
Post by alarch on Jun 12, 2019 16:07:18 GMT
You knew what you would get with Coleman - a fully pumped up team with everyone understanding their role, a coherent gameplan (even if a little conservative) and getting the basics right. The difference with Giggs is chalk and cheese. We seem to be lost, the players don't look confident, and the lack of the basics is the most worrying - it doesn't look like the players understand their roles. How many individual set piece takers did we have yesterday? It seemed to change with every free kick and corner taker, from brooks, to James to Allen etc. There is no cohesion, unsurprisingly with so many changes, just muddled thinking. There was no bravery on the ball either - we pumped it long so many times when Hungary weren't particularly using a high press. We would pump it long to bale in open play or at free kicks and there would be no one following up, as if nothing had been planned at all. You hear that some of the big managers, the likes of Mourinho, are absoultely meticulous and try to plan for every eventuality and instruct players on how to approach the game under different scenarios. You hear of the endless hours Bielsa spends analysing the opposition and planning for each game. I can't imagine Giggs doing any of those things. He's had weeks with the team including a week to prepare out in Portugal so there is no excuse for the complete lack of gameplan. Perhaps that was the issue, all international managers had an unusually long period of time to spend with their sides so their individual merits as managers probably counted more this round than it usually does, and that's where we fall well short of the competition. I think that's the worst I've ever felt after a game. I'm absolutely gutted. In all likelihood, we now have to wait 2 years for our next meaningful game because I can't see giggs getting the 5 wins needed from this campaign. I wish I could disagree! Absolutely spot on. I'm just hoping, but with very low expectation, that Giggs will do a Coleman after the World Cup campaign, and do some serious introspection. Judging by his responses after setback - which is a mixture of blaming the players, bemoaning our luck or saying things were a let better than they really were - I very much doubt it. Coleman, as well as being a fantastic man manager, was also big enough to delegate and take the wisdom of others, e.g Osian Roberts, on board. He also made use of sports psychology, which he readily acknowledges. All that takes a certain amount of humility and a willingness to be a team player as well as a leader. This is a moment of truth for Giggs, because history won't remember him kindly if he blows the chances of the strongest Welsh squad in history.
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Giggs
Jun 12, 2019 16:15:36 GMT
Post by alarch on Jun 12, 2019 16:15:36 GMT
Fair points. I suppose what I should have said is that I think the players you currently have would be more suited to counterattacking than a possession-based style. That's not to say that you don't have the quality to be that type of team or anything, you definitely do, just that IMO your best players all seem to have the perfect attributes for counterattacking (e.g. hard-working, ball winning, quick and technical). And completely agree with the bolded bit, whatever philosophy you want, it's important to have actually have one, no matter what it ends up being. You're not wrong in saying that counter-attacking should be an important element of Wales' play, when the opportunity arises. However, last night illustrated perfectly how savvy opposition managers adjust to that obvious threat. Hungary, first half in particular, dropped off to the half-way line, giving us easy possession in our own half, and then formed a low defensive block. As a consequence there was no space to counter-attack into. It was almost as if we hadn't prepared at all for this eventuality - and so were left stroking the ball between the centre-backs, full-backs and goalie without any purpose. Our tempo and movement off the ball in the first half was non-existent. Things did improve a bit after the break - but then fatigue clearly set in late on - no surprises there. We really needed to take the initiative early on, and use the technical quality in the likes of Ampadu, Allen and Brooks to build with quick-passing small triangles. Just about the only time we did that resulted in the cross from Allen and the flicked effort by Lawrence. Nowhere near enough.
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Giggs
Jun 12, 2019 16:21:57 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2019 16:21:57 GMT
Playing the ball out was difficult as Ampadu's instinct is to drop into defence to try and dictate, and none of the front 4 want to receive passes in midfield, so Joe Allen was the only playing offering between the lines for the majority of the game. Add in an injured Ben Davies and looks-like-he's-injured Chris Gunter and a clear lack of preparation and coaching (players were reorganising themselves throughout the first half, countless misunderstandings and failures to anticipate), and it's a wonder we made the ground we did in the first 20 of the second half.
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Post by gwernybwch on Jun 12, 2019 20:13:59 GMT
You knew what you would get with Coleman - a fully pumped up team with everyone understanding their role, a coherent gameplan (even if a little conservative) and getting the basics right. The difference with Giggs is chalk and cheese. We seem to be lost, the players don't look confident, and the lack of the basics is the most worrying - it doesn't look like the players understand their roles. How many individual set piece takers did we have yesterday? It seemed to change with every free kick and corner taker, from brooks, to James to Allen etc. There is no cohesion, unsurprisingly with so many changes, just muddled thinking. There was no bravery on the ball either - we pumped it long so many times when Hungary weren't particularly using a high press. We would pump it long to bale in open play or at free kicks and there would be no one following up, as if nothing had been planned at all. You hear that some of the big managers, the likes of Mourinho, are absoultely meticulous and try to plan for every eventuality and instruct players on how to approach the game under different scenarios. You hear of the endless hours Bielsa spends analysing the opposition and planning for each game. I can't imagine Giggs doing any of those things. He's had weeks with the team including a week to prepare out in Portugal so there is no excuse for the complete lack of gameplan. Perhaps that was the issue, all international managers had an unusually long period of time to spend with their sides so their individual merits as managers probably counted more this round than it usually does, and that's where we fall well short of the competition. I think that's the worst I've ever felt after a game. I'm absolutely gutted. In all likelihood, we now have to wait 2 years for our next meaningful game because I can't see giggs getting the 5 wins needed from this campaign. I wish I could disagree! Absolutely spot on. I'm just hoping, but with very low expectation, that Giggs will do a Coleman after the World Cup campaign, and do some serious introspection. Judging by his responses after setback - which is a mixture of blaming the players, bemoaning our luck or saying things were a let better than they really were - I very much doubt it. Coleman, as well as being a fantastic man manager, was also big enough to delegate and take the wisdom of others, e.g Osian Roberts, on board. He also made use of sports psychology, which he readily acknowledges. All that takes a certain amount of humility and a willingness to be a team player as well as a leader. This is a moment of truth for Giggs, because history won't remember him kindly if he blows the chances of the strongest Welsh squad in history. Great posts by you both. These games are where the Giggs management style that we were promised have been open for us all to see. There is no 'he must have learnt from the best manager in the business', there is no 'he will have SAF on the end of the phone if he needs advice', there is no 'he doesn't need to watch players week in, week out, that is what analysists are for', there is 'no problem if he has other commitments outside of work', there is 'no need to meet fans / welsh kids, his results will speak for themselves'. Lets face it, the FAW aren't going to sack him, their are still too many Councillors that will have a w@nk fest just being near him and paying him and his team off will near bankrupt the FAW. Giggs' ego + his need to play off his divorce settlement + his financial commitment to Salford will mean that he won't resign. All we can hope for is that we have a period of reflection, ala Coleman, and then Giggs decides to (a) personally knuckle down, (b) use the resources available to him and (c) come up with a plan (preferably two) that will make near world beaters again. #ingiggswetrust we have no other choice but to.
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Giggs
Jun 12, 2019 20:44:11 GMT
Post by pendragon on Jun 12, 2019 20:44:11 GMT
I have to agree with you.
I'll admit, I was open-minded to his appointment, perhaps hoping that his ruthless ambition and hunger for success could translate to results. And maybe, eventually, I might be proved right, who knows.
But his away record, and his strategy in Osijek and Budapest, is causing me deep concern. I can understand injuries depleting the team's strength, but the lack of a cohesive and co-ordinated game plan is harder to understand. A failure to play fast attacking football against a technically weak, but highly organised side, is hard for me to understand.
However, if he stays (as I'm sure he will), I'm concerned that all this #GiggsOut stuff might have a demoralising effect on the team, and will do more harm than good.
Like you, my sincere hope is that Giggs reflects long and hard this summer, that he gets talking to other successful football coaches in the business, re-thinks his strategies, thoroughly scrutinises our opponents' strengths and weaknesses in time for the next round of autumn games, goes to watch our up and coming talents in their league games, re-builds rapport with the players if needs be.
The two hardest away fixtures are over. Need to look forward and see what can be done here.
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Giggs
Jun 12, 2019 21:06:06 GMT
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Post by cymro on Jun 12, 2019 21:06:06 GMT
I wish I could disagree! Absolutely spot on. I'm just hoping, but with very low expectation, that Giggs will do a Coleman after the World Cup campaign, and do some serious introspection. Judging by his responses after setback - which is a mixture of blaming the players, bemoaning our luck or saying things were a let better than they really were - I very much doubt it. Coleman, as well as being a fantastic man manager, was also big enough to delegate and take the wisdom of others, e.g Osian Roberts, on board. He also made use of sports psychology, which he readily acknowledges. All that takes a certain amount of humility and a willingness to be a team player as well as a leader. This is a moment of truth for Giggs, because history won't remember him kindly if he blows the chances of the strongest Welsh squad in history. Great posts by you both. These games are where the Giggs management style that we were promised have been open for us all to see. There is no 'he must have learnt from the best manager in the business', there is no 'he will have SAF on the end of the phone if he needs advice', there is no 'he doesn't need to watch players week in, week out, that is what analysists are for', there is 'no problem if he has other commitments outside of work', there is 'no need to meet fans / welsh kids, his results will speak for themselves'. Lets face it, the FAW aren't going to sack him, their are still too many Councillors that will have a w@nk fest just being near him and paying him and his team off will near bankrupt the FAW. Giggs' ego + his need to play off his divorce settlement + his financial commitment to Salford will mean that he won't resign. All we can hope for is that we have a period of reflection, ala Coleman, and then Giggs decides to (a) personally knuckle down, (b) use the resources available to him and (c) come up with a plan (preferably two) that will make near world beaters again. #ingiggswetrust we have no other choice but to. Indeed this could be the making of Giggs. If he fails with Wales then he can kiss goodbye to the dream of that Premier League job he obviously craves. His stock is going to plummet or rise based on whether he can get a victory in October. Time to knuckle down.
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Giggs
Jun 12, 2019 21:39:35 GMT
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Post by conwy10 on Jun 12, 2019 21:39:35 GMT
Great posts by you both. These games are where the Giggs management style that we were promised have been open for us all to see. There is no 'he must have learnt from the best manager in the business', there is no 'he will have SAF on the end of the phone if he needs advice', there is no 'he doesn't need to watch players week in, week out, that is what analysists are for', there is 'no problem if he has other commitments outside of work', there is 'no need to meet fans / welsh kids, his results will speak for themselves'. Lets face it, the FAW aren't going to sack him, their are still too many Councillors that will have a w@nk fest just being near him and paying him and his team off will near bankrupt the FAW. Giggs' ego + his need to play off his divorce settlement + his financial commitment to Salford will mean that he won't resign. All we can hope for is that we have a period of reflection, ala Coleman, and then Giggs decides to (a) personally knuckle down, (b) use the resources available to him and (c) come up with a plan (preferably two) that will make near world beaters again. #ingiggswetrust we have no other choice but to. Indeed this could be the making of Giggs. If he fails with Wales then he can kiss goodbye to the dream of that Premier League job he obviously craves. His stock is going to plummet or rise based on whether he can get a victory in October. Time to knuckle down. You assume that Giggs is the only manager in the world who wants to move onto other things. Luckily the Croatia, Slovakia and Hungary managers have no dreams, hopes and aspirations so when Giggs starts to focus we’ll be rocking! I assume Giggs is already doing what he can and is just simply not good enough.
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Post by haruki on Jun 13, 2019 12:40:29 GMT
A major difference between Coleman and Giggs is that Coleman benefited from Bale in his prime, Giggs isn't working with the same player
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Giggs
Jun 13, 2019 14:21:56 GMT
Post by alarch on Jun 13, 2019 14:21:56 GMT
A major difference between Coleman and Giggs is that Coleman benefited from Bale in his prime, Giggs isn't working with the same player True, but with Chris Coleman's undoubted man management skills, perhaps he could extracted better performances from Bale. Bale's main problem is psychological, rather than physical, I suspect.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2019 13:03:02 GMT
Coleman had us well-drilled and hard to beat. It was only when teams started to respect us and stand off that we had trouble, because the game plan became ineffective rather than being poorly constructed and implemented, as it looks now with Giggs.
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Post by 1gwaunview on Jun 14, 2019 15:13:32 GMT
Coleman had us well-drilled and hard to beat. It was only when teams started to respect us and stand off that we had trouble, because the game plan became ineffective rather than being poorly constructed and implemented, as it looks now with Giggs. Can't say I've noticed much of a plan the last few games.
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Giggs
Jun 14, 2019 19:13:02 GMT
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Post by cadno on Jun 14, 2019 19:13:02 GMT
I feel for him to be honest, it's the lack of cohesion on the pitch and the lack of togetherness off it that I'm really worried about.
I had a good feeling about Coleman even when results were going against us.
I do not have that feeling about Giggs at the moment, but obviously I hope he turns things around.
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Post by pendragon on Jun 14, 2019 19:20:37 GMT
We've also had a few good results (and good performances) during his tenure... Ireland Nations League (at home and at the Aviva - without Bale and Ramsey), and Slovakia at home (although the second half of that performance was rather tense!). Sincerely hope we can recapture that momentum in three months time!
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Giggs
Jun 15, 2019 8:34:34 GMT
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Post by cadno on Jun 15, 2019 8:34:34 GMT
Hennessey Chester Ash Davies Gunter Allen Ledley Taylor Brooks Ramsey Bale
This team delivers qualification.
Bring Ampadu, James, Wilson etc on, fantastic subs.
Moving forward Roberts, Mepham and Rodon step in.
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Giggs
Jun 15, 2019 8:39:19 GMT
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Post by cadno on Jun 15, 2019 8:39:19 GMT
Just because we have a lot of talented individuals it doesn't mean we have to fit them all in to the starting 11.
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Giggs
Jun 15, 2019 8:47:12 GMT
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Post by cymroircarn on Jun 15, 2019 8:47:12 GMT
Just because we have a lot of talented individuals it doesn't mean we have to fit them all in to the starting 11. Agree. I think this is what people are missing. Hungary play as a team, look at them now. We are a collection of individuals, most of which are very young. It’s a pity there is such a gap in experience.
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Giggs
Jun 15, 2019 9:56:27 GMT
Post by 1gwaunview on Jun 15, 2019 9:56:27 GMT
Just because we have a lot of talented individuals it doesn't mean we have to fit them all in to the starting 11. Agree. I think this is what people are missing. Hungary play as a team, look at them now. We are a collection of individuals, most of which are very young. It’s a pity there is such a gap in experience. Ultimately it's the manager's responsibility to mould a team from individuals (even if they are young), certainly not the same atmosphere around the squad as there was in Coleman's days. I hope we're not returning to the knocked out after a couple of games days! We had more than enough of those.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2019 10:01:47 GMT
Hennessey Chester Ash Davies Gunter Allen Ledley Taylor Brooks Ramsey Bale This team delivers qualification. Bring Ampadu, James, Wilson etc on, fantastic subs. Moving forward Roberts, Mepham and Rodon step in. Ledley lol. You're living 5 years in the past.
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Giggs
Jun 15, 2019 10:43:29 GMT
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Post by cadno on Jun 15, 2019 10:43:29 GMT
Hennessey Chester Ash Davies Gunter Allen Ledley Taylor Brooks Ramsey Bale This team delivers qualification. Bring Ampadu, James, Wilson etc on, fantastic subs. Moving forward Roberts, Mepham and Rodon step in. Ledley lol. You're living 5 years in the past. Smith lol. You're living 5 years in the future.
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Post by cadno on Jun 15, 2019 10:44:47 GMT
Welcome to the Welsh national football team.
Once you hit 30 you belong in a retirement home.
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Post by iot on Jun 15, 2019 11:29:32 GMT
Hennessey Chester Ash Davies Gunter Allen Ledley Taylor Brooks Ramsey Bale This team delivers qualification. Bring Ampadu, James, Wilson etc on, fantastic subs. Moving forward Roberts, Mepham and Rodon step in. How does that team deliver qualification when ledley is without a club, hasn't played this past year, and apart from a decent 2 month start at derby almost 2 years ago, hasn't been in form since the euros? Gunter can't get into one of the worst sides in the championship, and roberts has been good for wales. There is a valid argument to be made that we've tried to transition too quickly and haven't respected what some of the established players can still offer - particularly ashley williams. However, some of the ridiculous claims you make in that post does that argument a disservice. I mean, James has been our one outstanding forward this campaign and you want to drop him? You want to play the same system that got us to the euros with basically 3 attack-minded players, forgetting that the system only worked because one of those 3 was a world class bale who scored 7 of our 11 goals in qualifying! We don't have that player anymore! Sorry, but that's one of the most ridiculous posts I've seen in a while.
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Giggs
Jun 15, 2019 11:35:24 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2019 11:35:24 GMT
Welcome to the Welsh national football team. Once you hit 30 you belong in a retirement home. When you take care of yourself as poorly as Ledley 32 is a long way down the hill. More interested in drinking with his mates than playing football with them. Part of the old culture the team can do without.
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Giggs
Jun 15, 2019 11:35:49 GMT
Post by cadno on Jun 15, 2019 11:35:49 GMT
Hennessey Chester Ash Davies Gunter Allen Ledley Taylor Brooks Ramsey Bale This team delivers qualification. Bring Ampadu, James, Wilson etc on, fantastic subs. Moving forward Roberts, Mepham and Rodon step in. How does that team deliver qualification when ledley is without a club, hasn't played this past year, and apart from a decent 2 month start at derby almost 2 years ago, hasn't been in form since the euros? Gunter can't get into one of the worst sides in the championship, and roberts has been good for wales. There is a valid argument to be made that we've tried to transition too quickly and haven't respected what some of the established players can still offer - particularly ashley williams. However, some of the ridiculous claims you make in that post does that argument a disservice. I mean, James has been our one outstanding forward this campaign and you want to drop him? You want to play the same system that got us to the euros with basically 3 attack-minded players, forgetting that the system only worked because one of those 3 was a world class bale who scored 7 of our 11 goals in qualifying! We don't have that player anymore! Sorry, but that's one of the most ridiculous posts I've seen in a while. Fair enough
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Giggs
Jun 15, 2019 13:55:04 GMT
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Post by cadno on Jun 15, 2019 13:55:04 GMT
Welcome to the Welsh national football team. Once you hit 30 you belong in a retirement home. When you take care of yourself as poorly as Ledley 32 is a long way down the hill. More interested in drinking with his mates than playing football with them. Part of the old culture the team can do without. What's he been doing? Ibiza with his mates? He'll find a club in the summer!
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Giggs
Jun 15, 2019 15:50:34 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2019 15:50:34 GMT
When you take care of yourself as poorly as Ledley 32 is a long way down the hill. More interested in drinking with his mates than playing football with them. Part of the old culture the team can do without. What's he been doing? Ibiza with his mates? He'll find a club in the summer! Local pubs with his teammates during the season. Of the Darron Gibson school of professionalism.
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Giggs
Jun 16, 2019 6:49:16 GMT
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Post by cymruramdcfc on Jun 16, 2019 6:49:16 GMT
Do you not feel that the Bale affect was a good cohesion running up to euros? With him at his peak scoring the vital goals his standing on world football even we thought we was unbeatable with him leading the team out.
Now Bale has lost that and struggling him self the talisman has lost that air of invincibility?
Coleman had Bale at his best Giggs has alot of younger generations players that have different attitude to football ... maybe
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