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Giggs
Nov 17, 2019 14:03:53 GMT
Post by welwyn on Nov 17, 2019 14:03:53 GMT
The fact that, for the first time, I think we could all predict and probably agree what our best team would be (and how they would play) if everyone was fit is a positive.
------------Wayne Roberts-Mepham-Rodon-Davies -------Ampadu---Allen Bale-------Ramsey----James -----------Moore
Having the likes of Harry and Dai to come into those attacking positions with clearly defined roles is a huge positive too.
Plus the emergence of Morrell means that if Allen is injured/suspended/drops off a cliff like Ledley we are not forced into a holding midfield of 2 players with no comfort in playing there.
On the Ash issue. All I can judge it on is my brothers review of his performance in the Luton v Bristol City game a couple of weeks ago. "Slowest CB I've seen, constantly caught out, turning circle of a low grad tank. A liability." I'm sure his experience will shine through in some games but certainly on that review, wouldn't want him starting against a fluid team like Azerbaijan. A more physical team like Hungary? Maybe.
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Post by superunknown on Nov 17, 2019 14:40:19 GMT
Got to give it to him, he’s had the biggest turnaround I’ve known for a modern manager. From seemingly incapable of stringing a decent game plan together to looking like they’ve been playing together for years is remarkable.
Still a little way to go but credit where it’s due so far.
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Giggs
Nov 17, 2019 15:04:00 GMT
Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2019 15:04:00 GMT
Got to give it to him, he’s had the biggest turnaround I’ve known for a modern manager. From seemingly incapable of stringing a decent game plan together to looking like they’ve been playing together for years is remarkable. Still a little way to go but credit where it’s due so far. Most of them have been playing together for years, Ryan.
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Post by superunknown on Nov 17, 2019 15:05:59 GMT
Got to give it to him, he’s had the biggest turnaround I’ve known for a modern manager. From seemingly incapable of stringing a decent game plan together to looking like they’ve been playing together for years is remarkable. Still a little way to go but credit where it’s due so far. Most of them have been playing together for years, Ryan. Moore, James, Lockyer, Ampadu, Morrell? Ok fella
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Giggs
Nov 17, 2019 15:07:49 GMT
Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2019 15:07:49 GMT
DJ and Morrell have been playing together for over 5 years. We have a very good and consistent youth development pathway for the majority of the players coming through.
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Post by iot on Nov 17, 2019 15:25:21 GMT
Lets be honest Whatever you think of him Giggs has been absolutely BRAVE and RUTHLESS All these kids he has thrown in (and I have been thinking before he has thrown in too many too soon) was akin to forward planning 2 to 4 years down the road and he must have been aware that he was risking qualification for this tournament though this approach. Sure he needed to threshen things up but he ripped things up and started again! If he suceeds on Tuesday while doing this then he deserves massive credit. To get the results while incorporating a load of youngsters, new players in a new philosophy. Whatever you think he has been far less rigid / predictable than Coleman. Who would have thought he would even revert to a 7ft, oldish (he is 27) target man with limited skills / poor goal record to get us over the line, which has so far proven successful! Does it not send a chill down your spine that if Colemand were still there then we may still be seeing the likes of Gunter playing? Would also note that he has been hurt a lot by the unavailability of Ramsey (especially) and Bale. Also with Bale, when he has had him, he has been low on fitness, quality and confidence for the most part. The youngsters have filled the void and who is the one that has backed them and given belief! The only selection I don't get is Giggs not picking Williams for the last game (only). Does anyone know if there is a reason? Throwing youngsters in ahead of him and one - Lockyer - who is not so young = but one that I personally do not rate - has surprised me. I always think he has a mistake in him and he has made clear errors in both games he has played in. I can't believe Williams has made things awkward for him as he always comes across as humble but driven. Maybe its based on some scientific analysis or something! Finally, it is MUCH more exciting to watch Wales. My only concern is sometimes we are naturally very open - strangely this seems to be the case right from the middle in the middle half of the field (which is surprising) and on our right (teams are deliberately overloading on that side - even Azerbajan did it!). Maybe this is the sacrifice we need to make to more attacking. Our attacking options are now pretty awesome so I guess it makes sense to do so but it is a concern. COME ON WALES! If Giggs delivers on Tuesday then we should all shut up and focus on the football and not his moral code or his playing days (in which he still made a massively positive contribution by the way!). Judge him as a manager and that ultimately comes down to getting results and changing things with the future in mind Lots to agree and disagree with here. Yes he has been brave and ruthless in prioritising players over the established players who are still playing at a high level such as the mepham/lockyer over Ash call yesterday. However, if that is the case why does he feel the need to do that? The thing that really annoys me is when people draw comparisons with the toshack youth overhaul - it was a necessity for him but it hasn't been to anywhere near the same extent with giggs. He doesn't need to prioritse future campaigns over this one like toshack had to. Do I need to remind anyone that bale, ramsey and allen are all around 30 and are only going downhill from this point forward? We've got great players coming through, but when some of them reach their prime in 4/5 years our current top class players will be past it. So prioritising future campaigns over this one is completely daft. The other criticism people will have of giggs is the question marks that remain over his tactical acumen. He had fifteen odd games before these last three good performances where he used about 15 different combinations in the front 3 / front 4 and about 15 different combinations in our centre back pairings too. He's now abandoned all of those forward combinations and reverted to a completely different style with a big cf. It should be possible to implement a different style of play with a combination of bale, james, brooks, wilson, lawrence, matondo up front but giggs, barring the china and ireland games, was completely unable to do it. I'm not sure he should be praised for having to revert into choosing moore - he seemed forced into it after the complete shambles of the previous performances. But he does deserve credit for placing trust in moore over someone like vokes, which is what coleman might have done.
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Post by allezlesrouges on Nov 17, 2019 15:26:21 GMT
I personally can't stand Giggs for reasons that have been pointed out here so many times, and was saddened when he was appointed. Up until the Croatia game at home (Nations League Rep Ireland home performance accepted - don't acknowledge China trip as being relevant) thought he was clueless. Somehow, and I'm not sure how (partly Kieffer Moore's arrival perhaps) we are in a fantastic position of needing a win on Tuesday to qualify for the finals automatically. It's been a massive turnaround in a short time and we look a completely transformed side from the beginning of this campaign. IF.. we do manage to qualify then he certainly deserves major credit for the second half of this qualifying campaign. Failure to qualify now though, either automatically or through the backdoor then his future as Wales manager should be discussed (and I'm sure it will be) . Sorry I just don't get how this makes sense? If he qualifies us he deserves major credit, but if he doesn't he should be sacked? There's always nuance in football, and it just feels to me that modern fans only seem to think in extremes. Side note - to everyone who said Giggs out after Hungary away, who said that our campaign was over, that it was better to disregard the rest of the campaign and start over with a new manager (and there was a LOT of people out there saying this), I hope you all realise that if you were in charge we wouldn't be going to Euro 2020. As it stands we are one win away. And if we qualify then you should be as quick to praise Giggs as you were to call for his head.
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Post by iot on Nov 17, 2019 15:31:34 GMT
Lets be honest Whatever you think of him Giggs has been absolutely BRAVE and RUTHLESS All these kids he has thrown in (and I have been thinking before he has thrown in too many too soon) was akin to forward planning 2 to 4 years down the road and he must have been aware that he was risking qualification for this tournament though this approach. Sure he needed to threshen things up but he ripped things up and started again! If he suceeds on Tuesday while doing this then he deserves massive credit. To get the results while incorporating a load of youngsters, new players in a new philosophy. Whatever you think he has been far less rigid / predictable than Coleman. Who would have thought he would even revert to a 7ft, oldish (he is 27) target man with limited skills / poor goal record to get us over the line, which has so far proven successful! Does it not send a chill down your spine that if Colemand were still there then we may still be seeing the likes of Gunter playing? Would also note that he has been hurt a lot by the unavailability of Ramsey (especially) and Bale. Also with Bale, when he has had him, he has been low on fitness, quality and confidence for the most part. The youngsters have filled the void and who is the one that has backed them and given belief! The only selection I don't get is Giggs not picking Williams for the last game (only). Does anyone know if there is a reason? Throwing youngsters in ahead of him and one - Lockyer - who is not so young = but one that I personally do not rate - has surprised me. I always think he has a mistake in him and he has made clear errors in both games he has played in. I can't believe Williams has made things awkward for him as he always comes across as humble but driven. Maybe its based on some scientific analysis or something! Finally, it is MUCH more exciting to watch Wales. My only concern is sometimes we are naturally very open - strangely this seems to be the case right from the middle in the middle half of the field (which is surprising) and on our right (teams are deliberately overloading on that side - even Azerbajan did it!). Maybe this is the sacrifice we need to make to more attacking. Our attacking options are now pretty awesome so I guess it makes sense to do so but it is a concern. COME ON WALES! If Giggs delivers on Tuesday then we should all shut up and focus on the football and not his moral code or his playing days (in which he still made a massively positive contribution by the way!). Judge him as a manager and that ultimately comes down to getting results and changing things with the future in mind Great post there hooky And I agree with much of it and some of this is going to feel like splitting hairs - He has been brave and ruthless, but throwing youngsters in too soon has been his choice. There have been a few occasions where his need to be 'his own man' have left us short of cover. He has been SO lucky to receive the benefits of all the hard work of Tosh / Flynn / Osian. He did rip things up and start again. Although he ripped things up without an obvious plan and with more time to fiddle about than any Welsh manager has ever experienced has finally found a new system. He has set his system up in such a way that the only way it would succeed is if we have a mobile centre-forward. I will ALWAYS judge him on his off-field activities. There is SO much more that he could give to Welsh football if he wanted to. For him it is ManU.Salford.Wales.In that order. PS: Not playing A. Williams last night made perfect sense to me. Azeri aren't any great shakes going forward and a rusty Mepham and Lockyer should have easily dealt with them. The Hungarian centre-forward is an absolute unit and a rested Ashley should be left to deal with him. Oops, I wouldn't have replied if I'd have seen this first. You wrote what I meant to say much better!
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Giggs
Nov 17, 2019 15:51:42 GMT
Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2019 15:51:42 GMT
I personally can't stand Giggs for reasons that have been pointed out here so many times, and was saddened when he was appointed. Up until the Croatia game at home (Nations League Rep Ireland home performance accepted - don't acknowledge China trip as being relevant) thought he was clueless. Somehow, and I'm not sure how (partly Kieffer Moore's arrival perhaps) we are in a fantastic position of needing a win on Tuesday to qualify for the finals automatically. It's been a massive turnaround in a short time and we look a completely transformed side from the beginning of this campaign. IF.. we do manage to qualify then he certainly deserves major credit for the second half of this qualifying campaign. Failure to qualify now though, either automatically or through the backdoor then his future as Wales manager should be discussed (and I'm sure it will be) . Sorry I just don't get how this makes sense? If he qualifies us he deserves major credit, but if he doesn't he should be sacked? There's always nuance in football, and it just feels to me that modern fans only seem to think in extremes. Side note - to everyone who said Giggs out after Hungary away, who said that our campaign was over, that it was better to disregard the rest of the campaign and start over with a new manager (and there was a LOT of people out there saying this), I hope you all realise that if you were in charge we wouldn't be going to Euro 2020. As it stands we are one win away. And if we qualify then you should be as quick to praise Giggs as you were to call for his head. Why do you think Giggs' replacement wouldn't have put together a run of two nail-biting draws and two wins against the whipping boys of the group? Would FIFA have revoked our playoff spot as well? He's managed to do the bare minimum to still be able to qualify from a very average group for a big (in terms of number of teams going) tournament. An improvement on where we were, which shows how bad a job he was doing.
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Post by jbt95 on Nov 17, 2019 16:07:36 GMT
Personally this group has gone how I expected.
We beat Slovakia at home. We lost in Croatia on a boiling hot June Saturday 3pm KO. Hungary was a tight game which we lost but could've won. Beat Azerbaijan at home. Avoided defeat in Slovakia. Avoided defeat at home to Croatia. Beat Azerbaijan away.
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Post by dai on Nov 17, 2019 16:29:57 GMT
You’d think we were Germany, Spain, England, Belgium etc by the way some go on here. On what planet would Croatia, Hungary and Slovakia be an easy group for us? Let’s have a bit of perspective here, are we actually much better than Slovakia and Hungary? Hungary probably, but I’d say we’re on a par with Slovakia.
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Post by insertname on Nov 17, 2019 16:38:28 GMT
You’d think we were Germany, Spain, England, Belgium etc by the way some go on here. On what planet would Croatia, Hungary and Slovakia be an easy group for us? Let’s have a bit of perspective here, are we actually much better than Slovakia and Hungary? Hungary probably, but I’d say we’re on a par with Slovakia. No group is easy, but if you were offered Croatia, Slovakia, Hungary, Azerbaijan, top two qualify automatically would you have passed it up for another spin on the wheel of fortune or bitten the other person’s hand off? I suspect it would be the latter because Slovakia and Hungary are eminently beatable, Croatia are not infallible either so it has everything you could want of a group really.
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Post by cadno on Nov 17, 2019 16:53:25 GMT
You’d think we were Germany, Spain, England, Belgium etc by the way some go on here. On what planet would Croatia, Hungary and Slovakia be an easy group for us? Let’s have a bit of perspective here, are we actually much better than Slovakia and Hungary? Hungary probably, but I’d say we’re on a par with Slovakia. Bydde ni'n really siomedig os newn ni ddim yn qualifio o'r grwp ma, surely hwn yw un o'r routes rhwydda ni erioed di cal! ma'r 3 performance dwetha wedi bod lot well, gyda big kieff up top. Gobeitho gewn ni good performance arall nos fawrth!
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Giggs
Nov 17, 2019 17:23:00 GMT
Post by hooky on Nov 17, 2019 17:23:00 GMT
You’d think we were Germany, Spain, England, Belgium etc by the way some go on here. On what planet would Croatia, Hungary and Slovakia be an easy group for us? Let’s have a bit of perspective here, are we actually much better than Slovakia and Hungary? Hungary probably, but I’d say we’re on a par with Slovakia. Would definitely agree with that. Slovakia - generally on a par but would have hoped to sneak the better of 2 games as we are at most only marginally better. To get a net gain of 3pts is fantastic! Croatia - you always hope to sneak a win but they always come across as an excellent, technically gifted 'team' who give everything for their team. So it is not a shock we took 1pt. Hungary - this is the only disappointment. They are pretty average and we basically messed up against them in Budapest. I have hardly ever seen Bale miss the easy opportunty he had against them and their goal was down to a cock-up in defence. I think we still had the better of the play even though we were poor. We may not have deserved to win but neither did they. Hopefully at home on Monday we will put things right. We just need to make sure we do not make a stupid mistake as they are not creative and we WILL get chances against them. When they do come then hopefully Bale, Ramsey, Wilson and maybe James are on the end of it and not Moore (he has helped us massively with his hold up play but unless its a header close to goal then I would not want to rely on him for a 1 on1 with the goalkeeper!)
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Giggs
Nov 17, 2019 17:58:28 GMT
Post by allezlesrouges on Nov 17, 2019 17:58:28 GMT
You’d think we were Germany, Spain, England, Belgium etc by the way some go on here. On what planet would Croatia, Hungary and Slovakia be an easy group for us? Let’s have a bit of perspective here, are we actually much better than Slovakia and Hungary? Hungary probably, but I’d say we’re on a par with Slovakia. Would definitely agree with that. Slovakia - generally on a par but would have hoped to sneak the better of 2 games as we are at most only marginally better. To get a net gain of 3pts is fantastic! Croatia - you always hope to sneak a win but they always come across as an excellent, technically gifted 'team' who give everything for their team. So it is not a shock we took 1pt. Hungary - this is the only disappointment. They are pretty average and we basically messed up against them in Budapest. I have hardly ever seen Bale miss the easy opportunty he had against them and their goal was down to a cock-up in defence. I think we still had the better of the play even though we were poor. We may not have deserved to win but neither did they. Hopefully at home on Monday we will put things right. We just need to make sure we do not make a stupid mistake as they are not creative and we WILL get chances against them. When they do come then hopefully Bale, Ramsey, Wilson and maybe James are on the end of it and not Moore (he has helped us massively with his hold up play but unless its a header close to goal then I would not want to rely on him for a 1 on1 with the goalkeeper!) Agree with that. If we hadn't conceded that late goal against Hungary a point would have been enough for us on Tuesday to qualify. Fine margins! Just shows how aside from that everything else has gone as expected.
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Giggs
Nov 17, 2019 18:27:39 GMT
Post by jbt95 on Nov 17, 2019 18:27:39 GMT
Would definitely agree with that. Slovakia - generally on a par but would have hoped to sneak the better of 2 games as we are at most only marginally better. To get a net gain of 3pts is fantastic! Croatia - you always hope to sneak a win but they always come across as an excellent, technically gifted 'team' who give everything for their team. So it is not a shock we took 1pt. Hungary - this is the only disappointment. They are pretty average and we basically messed up against them in Budapest. I have hardly ever seen Bale miss the easy opportunty he had against them and their goal was down to a cock-up in defence. I think we still had the better of the play even though we were poor. We may not have deserved to win but neither did they. Hopefully at home on Monday we will put things right. We just need to make sure we do not make a stupid mistake as they are not creative and we WILL get chances against them. When they do come then hopefully Bale, Ramsey, Wilson and maybe James are on the end of it and not Moore (he has helped us massively with his hold up play but unless its a header close to goal then I would not want to rely on him for a 1 on1 with the goalkeeper!) Agree with that. If we hadn't conceded that late goal against Hungary a point would have been enough for us on Tuesday to qualify. Fine margins! Just shows how aside from that everything else has gone as expected. Playing for a draw is a dangerous game though, especially when Hungary would need to win anyway.
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Giggs
Nov 17, 2019 22:52:42 GMT
Post by 1gwaunview on Nov 17, 2019 22:52:42 GMT
We're in a great position to qualify now, either directly (preferable) or through play-offs (UEFA's system). Since dragging ourselves out of a slump in the last couple of fixtures, failing to qualify would be awful. Surely then a review would be required by the FAW, including the position of Manager. I really hope we win on Tuesday night, then Giggs' position will be safe should he wish to continue, and those of us who criticise can shut up for a while.
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Post by alarch on Nov 17, 2019 23:31:31 GMT
We're in a great position to qualify now, either directly (preferable) or through play-offs (UEFA's system). Since dragging ourselves out of a slump in the last couple of fixtures, failing to qualify would be awful. Surely then a review would be required by the FAW, including the position of Manager. I really hope we win on Tuesday night, then Giggs' position will be safe should he wish to continue, and those of us who criticise can shut up for a while. I understand and sympathise with your perspective, but to be realistic this isn't going to happen. I don't think it would have happened even if we'd continued in the same vein after the Croatia/Hungary double-header. So, now that we have shown some progress under Giggs it's definitely not going to happen. So, like it or not, we're going to be stuck with Giggs until after the Euros at the very least. Even then he will only leave at that point if we do spectacularly well and he gets the Man U gig. Then we can all happily moan at his departure, if you get my drift.
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Giggs
Nov 18, 2019 11:03:36 GMT
Post by impeachabull on Nov 18, 2019 11:03:36 GMT
| W | D | L | Win % | Gary Speed | 5 | 0 | 5 | 50 | Ryan Giggs | 8 | 3 | 7 | 44.44 | John Toshack ('05 - 10) | 22 | 8 | 23 | 42 | Terry Yorath | 16 | 8 | 17 | 39 | Chris Coleman | 19 | 13 | 17 | 39 |
There's no way he's going to get sacked anytime soon. Still have my reservations about him but he's now the second best manager by win %.
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Post by 1gwaunview on Nov 18, 2019 11:09:06 GMT
We're in a great position to qualify now, either directly (preferable) or through play-offs (UEFA's system). Since dragging ourselves out of a slump in the last couple of fixtures, failing to qualify would be awful. Surely then a review would be required by the FAW, including the position of Manager. I really hope we win on Tuesday night, then Giggs' position will be safe should he wish to continue, and those of us who criticise can shut up for a while. I understand and sympathise with your perspective, but to be realistic this isn't going to happen. I don't think it would have happened even if we'd continued in the same vein after the Croatia/Hungary double-header. So, now that we have shown some progress under Giggs it's definitely not going to happen. So, like it or not, we're going to be stuck with Giggs until after the Euros at the very least. Even then he will only leave at that point if we do spectacularly well and he gets the Man U gig. Then we can all happily moan at his departure, if you get my drift. I'm fully aware that the FAW bent over backwards to employ him, and he's on the biggest salary a manager of Cymru has ever been afforded. Let's hope now he lives up to that billing and we qualify properly tomorrow night. I'm sure most of us will tolerate him if that comes to fruition. Come On Cymru!!
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Post by welshiron on Nov 18, 2019 11:17:19 GMT
Giggs is more likely to leave if we qualify.
I think his ambition is well known and a good showing at the euros could see him in line to replace Ole. That's if we qualify.
Bizarley if we dont qualify he will still be in charge for the 2022 campaign.
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Giggs
Nov 18, 2019 15:16:12 GMT
Post by pendragon on Nov 18, 2019 15:16:12 GMT
I understand and sympathise with your perspective, but to be realistic this isn't going to happen. I don't think it would have happened even if we'd continued in the same vein after the Croatia/Hungary double-header. So, now that we have shown some progress under Giggs it's definitely not going to happen. So, like it or not, we're going to be stuck with Giggs until after the Euros at the very least. Even then he will only leave at that point if we do spectacularly well and he gets the Man U gig. Then we can all happily moan at his departure, if you get my drift. I'm fully aware that the FAW bent over backwards to employ him, and he's on the biggest salary a manager of Cymru has ever been afforded. Let's hope now he lives up to that billing and we qualify properly tomorrow night. I'm sure most of us will tolerate him if that comes to fruition. Come On Cymru!! Not disputing this, however post-Euros, wasn't Coleman given a bonus (probably rightly) that exceeded Giggs' current salary?
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Post by rossyjones on Nov 18, 2019 15:30:25 GMT
You get the feeling no matter what Giggs does going forward there´ll always be large swathes of our support who will give him shit. I heard people slating Bale out in Budapest ffs
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Post by manulike on Nov 18, 2019 23:08:24 GMT
#in.giggs.we.trust
#YES.WE.CAN
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Giggs
Nov 19, 2019 11:07:02 GMT
Post by 1gwaunview on Nov 19, 2019 11:07:02 GMT
I'm fully aware that the FAW bent over backwards to employ him, and he's on the biggest salary a manager of Cymru has ever been afforded. Let's hope now he lives up to that billing and we qualify properly tomorrow night. I'm sure most of us will tolerate him if that comes to fruition. Come On Cymru!! Not disputing this, however post-Euros, wasn't Coleman given a bonus (probably rightly) that exceeded Giggs' current salary? Re: Chris Coleman's salary, found on-line initial £200k increased to £350k post Euro 2016 (well deserved). Only found one mention of Ryan Giggs salary, quoted on a website as £300k+ (so not definitive). If we qualify no doubt it'll be raised as did Coleman's.
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Post by pendragon on Nov 19, 2019 11:11:16 GMT
What we should bear in mind is, that despite the salary being relatively high, it is very low in comparison to the managers of the likes of England and even Ireland and Scotland whose managers are on circa 1 - 2 million! PS: I'll move on from this topic now
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Giggs
Nov 19, 2019 11:15:27 GMT
Post by TheWelshWay on Nov 19, 2019 11:15:27 GMT
Was reading that we'd get over £9 million if we qualify - plus add ons for wins and progressing - will be massive for the coffers and we can keep paying managers and coaches a decent salary if we qualify
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Post by holmesdaleultra on Nov 19, 2019 16:56:38 GMT
#in.giggs.we.trust #YES.WE.CAN Agree bro. I know Chris took over in difficult circumstances and he did a fantastic job but our Ryan has had to build a completely new team with ageing stars injured and needing replacing while keeping us in contention in the group. Well done Ryan.
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Post by manulike on Nov 19, 2019 17:02:10 GMT
Was reading that we'd get over £9 million if we qualify - plus add ons for wins and progressing - will be massive for the coffers and we can keep paying managers and coaches a decent salary if we qualify Think another semi final run will bag us £23m. :+) if we get Russia and Belgium in our group, we will be half way there already :+))
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Giggs
Nov 19, 2019 21:58:55 GMT
via mobile
barry likes this
Post by conwy10 on Nov 19, 2019 21:58:55 GMT
I’ve been one of the most vocal against Giggs, I believe it was mostly justified, but fair play he’s done amazing to qualify. He bought in a few lads who’ve really clicked, found a pattern of play and really taken this squad forward. He’s done good by me.
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