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Post by cymruramdcfc on Nov 22, 2019 22:44:27 GMT
He isn’t a Messi or Ronaldo and he could be more clinical with his finishing, BUT, he’s good with his head, puts himself about and gets stuck in. He is awkward to defend against, & mark and has given us a different dimension which we haven’t had for a long time. He doesn’t half take some punishment from the opposition, Keiffer Moore take a bow son, you’re doing well. and can only improve. |
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Post by welshiron on Nov 25, 2019 19:50:17 GMT
Watched Moore closely against Hungary.
He had a shocking first half (got nothing from ref).
Had an excellent second half and was a real menace.
Impressed the way he keeps his composure and gets on with it although his finishing is a big concern.
We need a plan B as teams will now know about him and just sit off him and pick up the second ball.
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Post by 1gwaunview on Nov 25, 2019 19:52:56 GMT
Watched Moore closely against Hungary. He had a shocking first half (got nothing from ref). Had an excellent second half and was a real menace. Impressed the way he keeps his composure and gets on with it although his finishing is a big concern. We need a plan B as teams will now know about him and just sit off him and pick up the second ball. One observation, he wins the majority of aerial duels and there's rarely a red shirt picking up the knock downs, flick ons. |
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Post by welshiron on Nov 25, 2019 19:57:14 GMT
Watched Moore closely against Hungary. He had a shocking first half (got nothing from ref). Had an excellent second half and was a real menace. Impressed the way he keeps his composure and gets on with it although his finishing is a big concern. We need a plan B as teams will now know about him and just sit off him and pick up the second ball. One observation, he wins the majority of aerial duels and there's rarely a red shirt picking up the knock downs, flick ons. Didnt win more than one first half but you need runners to get on the end of the headers he does win. His control isn't great so headers are his main threat |
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Post by pendragon on Nov 25, 2019 22:52:28 GMT
Another observation (and this was picked up by the commentators), is that the man-marking of Moore, sometimes creates spaces and opportunities for other players to step forward. While Bale and Moore were being marked, no one was marking Ramsey for instance who was able to run in between Barath and Moore for the first goal.
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Post by insertname on Nov 25, 2019 23:45:36 GMT
Watched Moore closely against Hungary. He had a shocking first half (got nothing from ref). Had an excellent second half and was a real menace. Impressed the way he keeps his composure and gets on with it although his finishing is a big concern. We need a plan B as teams will now know about him and just sit off him and pick up the second ball. One observation, he wins the majority of aerial duels and there's rarely a red shirt picking up the knock downs, flick ons. He’s been left too isolated at times, which is why I want to see a Jermaine Defoe type character alongside him, the closest we have probably got is Bradshaw. There were some interesting signs when he nodded a ball back into space for Williams in the box against Azerbaijan but Williams wasn’t quite up with him. If we could get Bradshaw or whoever with a striker’s instinct running onto the knockdowns it wouldn’t exactly be a plan B but could be useful when chasing a game. |
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Post by insertname on Nov 25, 2019 23:48:40 GMT
Another observation (and this was picked up by the commentators), is that the man-marking of Moore, sometimes creates spaces and opportunities for other players to step forward. While Bale and Moore were being marked, no one was marking Ramsey for instance who was able to run in between Barath and Moore for the first goal. They suggested he had been picked out by Hungary as a player to nullify but it’s testament to his application that after an average first half he had proper gotten under their bald centre back’s skin by the end and they just couldn’t compete as he was winning free kicks left right and centre. So even if you set out to target him it isn’t that easy to take him out of the game. |
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Post by iot on Nov 26, 2019 0:31:43 GMT
One observation, he wins the majority of aerial duels and there's rarely a red shirt picking up the knock downs, flick ons. He’s been left too isolated at times, which is why I want to see a Jermaine Defoe type character alongside him, the closest we have probably got is Bradshaw. There were some interesting signs when he nodded a ball back into space for Williams in the box against Azerbaijan but Williams wasn’t quite up with him. If we could get Bradshaw or whoever with a striker’s instinct running onto the knockdowns it wouldn’t exactly be a plan B but could be useful when chasing a game. The idea with moore, and HRK before him, is that you play a limited championship striker who's a handful and occupies defenders in order to create room and bring out the best from our stardust players - bale, rambo, james and brooks. You're suggesting we go from that, to a 442 with two average championship strikers up front. That goes from a dynamic of having one limited forward who brings out the best in other top quality forwards, to just having an average championship striker pairingup front. Terrible idea imo, which is why you won't ever see it in a Wales team |
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Post by welshiron on Nov 26, 2019 7:42:57 GMT
Dont need a second striker just need the wide men to tuck in a little.
Bradshaw has been benched by Millwall even after his golden patch.
Time to blend together what we have unless someone special comes along (possibly Neco Williams)
Bradshaw and Doidge simply aren't good enough and unless there are injuries will be nowhere near the 23.
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Post by insertname on Nov 26, 2019 10:04:06 GMT
He’s been left too isolated at times, which is why I want to see a Jermaine Defoe type character alongside him, the closest we have probably got is Bradshaw. There were some interesting signs when he nodded a ball back into space for Williams in the box against Azerbaijan but Williams wasn’t quite up with him. If we could get Bradshaw or whoever with a striker’s instinct running onto the knockdowns it wouldn’t exactly be a plan B but could be useful when chasing a game. The idea with moore, and HRK before him, is that you play a limited championship striker who's a handful and occupies defenders in order to create room and bring out the best from our stardust players - bale, rambo, james and brooks. You're suggesting we go from that, to a 442 with two average championship strikers up front. That goes from a dynamic of having one limited forward who brings out the best in other top quality forwards, to just having an average championship striker pairingup front. Terrible idea imo, which is why you won't ever see it in a Wales team I think you've missed the point of my post- I said when chasing a game. If you are going to throw extra men forward and gamble in the last 10 minutes are you going to bring on extra strikers or stick with the personnel that you have? Makes sense to me to sacrifice a holding midfielder and play a striker who can play in between the gaps that are left by Moore occupying the centre backs. |
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Post by insertname on Nov 26, 2019 10:06:22 GMT
Dont need a second striker just need the wide men to tuck in a little. Bradshaw has been benched by Millwall even after his golden patch. Time to blend together what we have unless someone special comes along (possibly Neco Williams) Bradshaw and Doidge simply aren't good enough and unless there are injuries will be nowhere near the 23. With respect you said Moore wasn't good enough and look how that turned out...some click others don't but we should always be trying to expand our options. Giggs has and look how it's paid off. Okay, maybe Vaulks and Lawrence haven't but it's always worth using friendlies to try players out for the one or two gems that will succeed and give you options. |
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Post by iot on Nov 26, 2019 11:26:47 GMT
The idea with moore, and HRK before him, is that you play a limited championship striker who's a handful and occupies defenders in order to create room and bring out the best from our stardust players - bale, rambo, james and brooks. You're suggesting we go from that, to a 442 with two average championship strikers up front. That goes from a dynamic of having one limited forward who brings out the best in other top quality forwards, to just having an average championship striker pairingup front. Terrible idea imo, which is why you won't ever see it in a Wales team I think you've missed the point of my post- I said when chasing a game. If you are going to throw extra men forward and gamble in the last 10 minutes are you going to bring on extra strikers or stick with the personnel that you have? Makes sense to me to sacrifice a holding midfielder and play a striker who can play in between the gaps that are left by Moore occupying the centre backs. It would be my worst nightmare if we're chasing a game with 20mins to go against a top class team and need a result, and we bring bradshaw on for a holding midfielder. I agree with you that we need a plan b, but please don't let that be it! If moore isn't getting any joy, I'd much rather move bale centrally and bring on brooks, matondo, lawrence or joniesta |
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Post by welshiron on Nov 26, 2019 11:28:46 GMT
Dont need a second striker just need the wide men to tuck in a little. Bradshaw has been benched by Millwall even after his golden patch. Time to blend together what we have unless someone special comes along (possibly Neco Williams) Bradshaw and Doidge simply aren't good enough and unless there are injuries will be nowhere near the 23. With respect you said Moore wasn't good enough and look how that turned out...some click others don't but we should always be trying to expand our options. Giggs has and look how it's paid off. Okay, maybe Vaulks and Lawrence haven't but it's always worth using friendlies to try players out for the one or two gems that will succeed and give you options. Dont think Moore will be long term. Also think we would of qualified if he hadn't been selected. We will only have 2 or 3 friendlies and already 30 + players vying for places so no time to blood lots of players who are not going to improve the team or offer something others cant. |
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Post by iot on Nov 26, 2019 11:38:22 GMT
With respect you said Moore wasn't good enough and look how that turned out...some click others don't but we should always be trying to expand our options. Giggs has and look how it's paid off. Okay, maybe Vaulks and Lawrence haven't but it's always worth using friendlies to try players out for the one or two gems that will succeed and give you options. Dont think Moore will be long term. Also think we would of qualified if he hadn't been selected. We will only have 2 or 3 friendlies and already 30 + players vying for places so no time to blood lots of players who are not going to improve the team or offer something others cant. Don't think you'll find many people agreeing with that first sentence welshiron. If Moore hadn't come in, there's no reason to believe we wouldn't have continued the incoherent rubbish we were playing previously, and if that were the case there's no chance we would have qualified. I know you questioned the selection of moore (as did I), but it's obvious he had a massive impact. There's no shame in admitting we were wrong, it happens to the best of us  |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2019 11:51:07 GMT
What got my back up about picking moore was his tweet showing his English cap and how proud he was etc,of course he should have been proud of it but it did seem we were just convenient.But since he was picked it looks like he runs himself into the ground and gives 100% for us and has certainly given us another option,cant argue with that really.
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Post by welshiron on Nov 26, 2019 12:01:00 GMT
Dont think Moore will be long term. Also think we would of qualified if he hadn't been selected. We will only have 2 or 3 friendlies and already 30 + players vying for places so no time to blood lots of players who are not going to improve the team or offer something others cant. Don't think you'll find many people agreeing with that first sentence welshiron. If Moore hadn't come in, there's no reason to believe we wouldn't have continued the incoherent rubbish we were playing previously, and if that were the case there's no chance we would have qualified. I know you questioned the selection of moore (as did I), but it's obvious he had a massive impact. There's no shame in admitting we were wrong, it happens to the best of us No denying he had a big impact. However we changed the way we played which was the biggest difference. I feel we could of done that with Vokes. Giggs didn't and we qualified so mo arguing there. We will never know any other scenario so could debate until Scotland qualify for a tournament 🤣🙈 |
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Post by richierich333 on Nov 26, 2019 12:06:08 GMT
Don't think you'll find many people agreeing with that first sentence welshiron. If Moore hadn't come in, there's no reason to believe we wouldn't have continued the incoherent rubbish we were playing previously, and if that were the case there's no chance we would have qualified. I know you questioned the selection of moore (as did I), but it's obvious he had a massive impact. There's no shame in admitting we were wrong, it happens to the best of us No denying he had a big impact. However we changed the way we played which was the biggest difference. I feel we could of done that with Vokes. Giggs didn't and we qualified so mo arguing there. We will never know any other scenario so could debate until Scotland qualify for a tournament 🤣🙈 Are you saying we would have done just as well with Vokes in those 4 games instead of Moore? Wow. You might have to swallow some pride here. |
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Post by impeachabull on Nov 26, 2019 12:16:47 GMT
Totally agree Moore had a huge impact and definitely deserves the plaudits!
I do wonder, however. how necessary he is with Ramsey in the side. Without Rambo, there was no one running effectively between the lines and the links between the front three and the rest were really disjointed.
Moore proved a great addition then because we could knock it long to him and let him bring Bale/James/Wilson into the game.
With a fully fit squad, I'd like to see us try Bale, James, Ramsey, and Brooks in one of the friendlies to see if Ramsey's addition would make it work.
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Post by insertname on Nov 26, 2019 12:18:30 GMT
No denying he had a big impact. However we changed the way we played which was the biggest difference. I feel we could of done that with Vokes. Giggs didn't and we qualified so mo arguing there. We will never know any other scenario so could debate until Scotland qualify for a tournament 🤣🙈 Are you saying we would have done just as well with Vokes in those 4 games instead of Moore? Wow. You might have to swallow some pride here. I haven't seen one performance from Vokes that was as good as Moore's worst. But maybe that's just me... |
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Post by insertname on Nov 26, 2019 12:19:32 GMT
I think you've missed the point of my post- I said when chasing a game. If you are going to throw extra men forward and gamble in the last 10 minutes are you going to bring on extra strikers or stick with the personnel that you have? Makes sense to me to sacrifice a holding midfielder and play a striker who can play in between the gaps that are left by Moore occupying the centre backs. It would be my worst nightmare if we're chasing a game with 20mins to go against a top class team and need a result, and we bring bradshaw on for a holding midfielder. I agree with you that we need a plan b, but please don't let that be it! If moore isn't getting any joy, I'd much rather move bale centrally and bring on brooks, matondo, lawrence or joniesta You must have been having kittens then when we had Church and Vokes up front against Portugal! |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Nov 26, 2019 12:23:27 GMT
Totally agree Moore had a huge impact and definitely deserves the plaudits! I do wonder, however. how necessary he is with Ramsey in the side. Without Rambo, there was no one running effectively between the lines and the links between the front three and the rest were really disjointed. Moore proved a great addition then because we could knock it long to him and let him bring Bale/James/Wilson into the game. With a fully fit squad, I'd like to see us try Bale, James, Ramsey, and Brooks in one of the friendlies to see if Ramsey's addition would make it work.For me this is plan B. Or if it works as well as the Ireland game, potentially plan A. |
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Post by iot on Nov 26, 2019 12:30:00 GMT
It would be my worst nightmare if we're chasing a game with 20mins to go against a top class team and need a result, and we bring bradshaw on for a holding midfielder. I agree with you that we need a plan b, but please don't let that be it! If moore isn't getting any joy, I'd much rather move bale centrally and bring on brooks, matondo, lawrence or joniesta You must have been having kittens then when we had Church and Vokes up front against Portugal! Exactly, it was clear we stood no chance once that happened. Thank god we now have fledgling bundesliga and premier league talents that can come off the bench to make an impact. With these youngsters, we shouldn't need to rely on an average championship cf pairing for years to come |
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Post by insertname on Nov 26, 2019 12:40:20 GMT
You must have been having kittens then when we had Church and Vokes up front against Portugal! Exactly, it was clear we stood no chance once that happened. Thank god we now have fledgling bundesliga and premier league talents that can come off the bench to make an impact. With these youngsters, we shouldn't need to rely on an average championship cf pairing for years to come But none of those players you mention are an out and out striker. We tried Bale up front and he isn't a striker, his movement (imo) is not good enough- way too static. One thing it seemed Bradshaw did give us (from his brief cameo) would be movement. We tried Lawrence as a striker - he's not a striker. To me it makes total sense that if we find ourselves 2-0 down again against Portugal we bring on an actual striker alongside Moore (when they have some previous experience of playing together) replacing a defensive midfielder and go almost totally direct. Losing a defensive player at that time of the game is less of an issue as it's very rare these days you see even top teams push for a 3rd at that stage- they will sit in and see the game out so going direct and having more options up top makes sense. Especially with Bale and James utilised on either flank because then the opposition know they can't go narrow and clog up the centre of the pitch (as most like to do when defending deep). This isn't Bradshaw specific, but we need to find someone (imo) who can play as an out and out goal scoring striker to give us an extra dimension. We simply don't have one amongst the usual suspects and it's the glaring hole in the squad, for my money and we should be committing a lot more resource to finding one and giving them the opportunity to show they can contribute. |
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Post by iot on Nov 26, 2019 13:05:45 GMT
Exactly, it was clear we stood no chance once that happened. Thank god we now have fledgling bundesliga and premier league talents that can come off the bench to make an impact. With these youngsters, we shouldn't need to rely on an average championship cf pairing for years to come But none of those players you mention are an out and out striker. We tried Bale up front and he isn't a striker, his movement (imo) is not good enough- way too static. One thing it seemed Bradshaw did give us (from his brief cameo) would be movement. We tried Lawrence as a striker - he's not a striker. To me it makes total sense that if we find ourselves 2-0 down again against Portugal we bring on an actual striker alongside Moore (when they have some previous experience of playing together) replacing a defensive midfielder and go almost totally direct. Losing a defensive player at that time of the game is less of an issue as it's very rare these days you see even top teams push for a 3rd at that stage- they will sit in and see the game out so going direct and having more options up top makes sense. Especially with Bale and James utilised on either flank because then the opposition know they can't go narrow and clog up the centre of the pitch (as most like to do when defending deep). This isn't Bradshaw specific, but we need to find someone (imo) who can play as an out and out goal scoring striker to give us an extra dimension. We simply don't have one amongst the usual suspects and it's the glaring hole in the squad, for my money and we should be committing a lot more resource to finding one and giving them the opportunity to show they can contribute. We've only tried bale up top once or twice I believe, and he scored against ireland and denmark frm there, so I haven't given up on that prospect. We've also never tried it with rambo in behind and james and brooks either side,and as allezlesrouges says, rambo might be the missing link. I'm pretty sure we would have a much better chance chasing a 2-0 lead against a top side with a combination of bale/rambo/brooks/james than moore/bradshaw and what, only allen in midfield? That would likely result in us failing to get a kick in for the rest of the game. |
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Post by Counting Crows on Nov 26, 2019 13:12:36 GMT
I don't believe Bale as a CF will work, unless he suddenly goes against his natural instinct to drop deep or go wide looking for the ball. Moore stays up front, occupies the CBs and generally waits for the ball to come to his neck of the woods. Of course he does run the channels when needed, but he doesn't go AWOL, popping up in the centre circle or just in front of the full backs. If Bale vacates the CF position during the game in an attempt to get the ball, then the opposition CBs have little to worry about and can start picking-up our midfielders instead. Vokes could do a similar job, but he's unlikely to run the channels. HRK could do a similar job, but he'll win fewer headers. Moore seems to have a bit of the good attributes of those two. A Welsh Angelos Charisteas  |
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Post by insertname on Nov 26, 2019 13:18:38 GMT
But none of those players you mention are an out and out striker. We tried Bale up front and he isn't a striker, his movement (imo) is not good enough- way too static. One thing it seemed Bradshaw did give us (from his brief cameo) would be movement. We tried Lawrence as a striker - he's not a striker. To me it makes total sense that if we find ourselves 2-0 down again against Portugal we bring on an actual striker alongside Moore (when they have some previous experience of playing together) replacing a defensive midfielder and go almost totally direct. Losing a defensive player at that time of the game is less of an issue as it's very rare these days you see even top teams push for a 3rd at that stage- they will sit in and see the game out so going direct and having more options up top makes sense. Especially with Bale and James utilised on either flank because then the opposition know they can't go narrow and clog up the centre of the pitch (as most like to do when defending deep). This isn't Bradshaw specific, but we need to find someone (imo) who can play as an out and out goal scoring striker to give us an extra dimension. We simply don't have one amongst the usual suspects and it's the glaring hole in the squad, for my money and we should be committing a lot more resource to finding one and giving them the opportunity to show they can contribute. We've only tried bale up top once or twice I believe, and he scored against ireland and denmark frm there, so I haven't given up on that prospect. We've also never tried it with rambo in behind and james and brooks either side,and as allezlesrouges says, rambo might be the missing link. I'm pretty sure we would have a much better chance chasing a 2-0 lead against a top side with a combination of bale/rambo/brooks/james than moore/bradshaw and what, only allen in midfield? That would likely result in us failing to get a kick in for the rest of the game. I stand to be corrected but I'm pretty sure he's played more games than that because you would think if he had a yield of 2 goals from 2 games he wouldn't be playing on the wing now! he hasn't particularly stood out for Real either when they had that short lived experiment of playing him as a lone striker when Ronaldo left which is why they, like us, utilise him as a winger even though his explosiveness has all but gone these days. Re: Not getting a kick, we replaced Ledley with Vokes against Portugal and had Vokes and Church up front and I don't recall being dominated as a result. When teams sit back you don't need two defensive midfielders- it's overkill. Our problem was that Vokes and Church played like a pair of strangers (which they were) and we had no ability to build a cohesive attack. |
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Post by welshiron on Nov 26, 2019 13:33:03 GMT
I do think we would of qualified with Vokes.
The main reason was the change in the way we played and whilst Vokes wouldnt of run the channels as much I do believe he would of buried some of the chances Moore missed.
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Post by insertname on Nov 26, 2019 13:47:17 GMT
I do think we would of qualified with Vokes. The main reason was the change in the way we played and whilst Vokes wouldnt of run the channels as much I do believe he would of buried some of the chances Moore missed. Ironically his strike rate at international level is not as good as Moore's. There is also an argument to be made that Moore's ability to put himself about is actually worth mo(o)re to the team than his goal return to the point where Vokes may not have had those chances in the first place. But regardless of stuff that can't be factually proved I don't see how anyone can in all seriousness compare Moore's 2 goals in 5 games with Vokes 11 in 61 and the nature of their two performances (ie Moore is a handful for defenders Vokes isn't) and come to the conclusion that Vokes would have saved our campaign if only Giggs would have picked him. |
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Post by cadno on Nov 26, 2019 13:59:14 GMT
One observation, he wins the majority of aerial duels and there's rarely a red shirt picking up the knock downs, flick ons. He’s been left too isolated at times, which is why I want to see a Jermaine Defoe type character alongside him, the closest we have probably got is Bradshaw. There were some interesting signs when he nodded a ball back into space for Williams in the box against Azerbaijan but Williams wasn’t quite up with him. If we could get Bradshaw or whoever with a striker’s instinct running onto the knockdowns it wouldn’t exactly be a plan B but could be useful when chasing a game. Great shout. Bradshaw runs all day and makes intelligent runs too, Matondo is another option but Bradshaw is a proven goalscorer. |
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Post by cadno on Nov 26, 2019 14:04:55 GMT
We scored 10 goals in qualifying, and people won't give Bradshaw a chance. I don't get it, if he scores 15+ this season should he still be overlooked?
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