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Post by iot on Sept 8, 2019 12:01:19 GMT
Having watched the game back, I'm going for:
Hennessey - 4, he had about 5 contributions in total (not sure if I've ever seen a GK having less touches), and two of them were absolute howlers
Roberts - 7, thought he did alright on the night and, watching it back, he made some very nice contributions with his running causing a few problems
Rodon - 7, if it weren't for the goal it would be an 8, but he made a very poor decision there in an otherwise very good performance with some great passing / running out of defence
Mepham - 6, tends to get bullied a little, dived in a couple of times when he shouldn't, was a little more hesitant than Rodon on the ball. Needs to be a much more commanding presence, he creates a little nervousness in defence
Taylor - 5, started off poorly with getting found out of position, then was mostly solid without offering much of an attacking threat, before making two big errors for the goal after which confidence visibly drained out of him
Ampadu - 5, couple of good tackles and dominating play, but he was poorer on the ball than usual, went for the safe option too many times for me, and his movement was extremely poor. He didn't fill the gaps that needed to be filled, allowing them to get on top of us far too easily.
Allen - 6, not as poor as I first though, but he was sloppy at times and gave away far too many fouls which made it difficult to build momentum.
Wilson - 4.5, he was sloppy on the ball, his corners were appalling (although that appeared to be a training ground move, so not sure if he can be blamed for that). The main problem, however, was his movement. He didn't find spaces in between the lines and thus couldn't link midfield and attack, which to my mind is the main purpose of that position.
James - 7, not his best performances but he and bale were clearly our main threats and he created a couple of really good chances which on another day would have led to goals.
Bale - 8, his best performance in a while. He didn't shy away from responsibility, he created a couple of good opportunities, he was generally very good on the ball and of course grabbed the winner.
Lawrence - 5, just way too inconsistent, can't hold up the ball and loses it way too often, and doens't have that killer instinct. His movement in the box is terrible, he's neither quick thinking enough to get ahead of defenders to take advantage of the dangerous balls James and Bale put in, and he's also not intelligent enough to hold his runs to make himself available for the pull-back. He just runs thoughtlessly in with his marker.
Joniesta - 7, injected much needed pace into the game and upped the tempo through his running and crisp passing.
Davies - 5, clearly rusty.
Vokes - 5, he was on the pitch for 15mins but must have only had 2 touches, which is quite typical of what vokes offers
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Post by oscardelta on Sept 8, 2019 13:28:06 GMT
Perhaps there was a "revenge" factor motivating them (there probably was for us fans đ). To be fair I fully understand that and it was no probability about it. It was obvious on here and I ignored the abusers on here, in much the same way that I didn't rub it in after the first game.
Personally would rather have lost that game that the original one.
BUT the reality was it flattered to deceive, as I said were inept with a management team that should have resigned but were too keen on the pay check.
The actions of Keane (one Roy) added nothing in terms of what had happened and his poisonous attitude of "Look at my medals" in recent days shows what a cock he is.
As a Man Utd fan i lost respect for him in 2002 when he walked out in Saipan and he should never have been allowed back in. We were bad on that night and while Wales were competent, our ineptitude, complete lack of organisation etc did not make Wales the best team in the world. A fact that was seemingly lost in the aftermath of the game. The game to Denmark away brought some semblance of reality back to Wales fans.
Possibly there was an underrating of the opposition in that they are only X in the world and an easy result, would not be the first team to mentally underrate an opposition.
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Post by pendragon on Sept 8, 2019 16:19:42 GMT
Perhaps there was a "revenge" factor motivating them (there probably was for us fans đ). To be fair I fully understand that and it was no probability about it. It was obvious on here and I ignored the abusers on here, in much the same way that I didn't rub it in after the first game.
Personally would rather have lost that game that the original one.
BUT the reality was it flattered to deceive, as I said were inept with a management team that should have resigned but were too keen on the pay check.
The actions of Keane (one Roy) added nothing in terms of what had happened and his poisonous attitude of "Look at my medals" in recent days shows what a cock he is.
As a Man Utd fan i lost respect for him in 2002 when he walked out in Saipan and he should never have been allowed back in. We were bad on that night and while Wales were competent, our ineptitude, complete lack of organisation etc did not make Wales the best team in the world. A fact that was seemingly lost in the aftermath of the game. The game to Denmark away brought some semblance of reality back to Wales fans.
Possibly there was an underrating of the opposition in that they are only X in the world and an easy result, would not be the first team to mentally underrate an opposition.
I'm not having a dig at Ireland or implying that we were the "best team in the world". My point is that during that game, there was a link-up between defence, midfield and attack. I'm not discussing the result, nor the opposition. I'm discussing the strategy and the organisation that was completely absent on Friday, and was more visible during the Ireland home and to a lesser extent, the Ireland away and Slovakia home games.
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Post by alarch on Sept 8, 2019 19:25:57 GMT
Having watched the match again I'm a little bit more optimistic about the rest of the campaign.
One of the main impressions I gained watching the game from a more dispassionate perspective was that Azerbaijan were a much better side than we all gave them credit for before the game. They were far better than the likes of Andorra - probably on a par with Moldova, who we struggled to beat away last time out. They defended their box very well, with countless blocks, showed good technical ability in tight areas (better than us in fact), and had some quality in their side, reflected in the best bit of footie in the whole evening - the perfectly weighted, outside of the boot pass that set up their equalizer. With this in mind, it puts our victory in a better light.
Allen and Ampadu were better than people (myself included) rated them post-match. Neither were near their best, and both misplaced a few more passes than usual - but they both put in decent performances. The problems we had lay very much elsewhere, most notably in the performances of Lawrence, Wilson, Taylor and Hennessey. To be fair, Wilson did do one or two things well, but by and large he had a poor game - not least with his three corners all failing to gain any sort of elevation - what the hell was going on there? Very much a bad day at the office. More disappointing in many ways was his anonymous performance in general, rarely offering himself to link play, reinforcing my suspicion that he's got a long way to go in terms of the development of his all-round game.
It was a bit understandable that Taylor wasn't at his best, given that he's never played with Rodon and James previously, and the fact that he's been absent from the national side for so long. Having said that he surrendered possession far too easily on too many occasions (and not just the equalizer) with over-ambitious longer balls. Hopefully Davies will have gained some precious game time and match fitness by the Slovakia match.
Given Davies' lack of match fitness (which showed in his cameo) I can't really blame Giggs for Taylor's selection, nor Hennessey's for that matter. However, selecting Lawrence as a number 9 was a really dumb decision, which anybody who's seen Lawrence play for Wales would know was going to fail. I felt for him, because his game is so unsuited to the role. He failed miserably to hold up play with his back to goal, or succeed in attempted lay-offs. Less excusable was his consistent failure to make anticipatory runs to several near-post crosses from James and Bale. There was also a good chance where he received the ball well inside the Azeri box from a James cross, with back to goal and just one defender between him and the goal. But his attempted spin and shot failed miserably. All-in-all a pretty poor showing from Lawrence - but he should never have been put in that position in the first place. It would have been great for Giggs to have had the humility to acknowledge his mistake in this regard. His insistence on simply blaming the players is probably the main reason for doubting his ability to put things right.
The problem against Azerbaijan was getting a platform in and around the opposition penalty area for sustained periods - due to the aforementioned poor hold-up play, but moreso the lack of patience and willingness to ratchet up the pressure by high tempo, short-passing movements with low risk passes. The entire front four were culpable, even Bale - and I wonder if this is what Giggs cryptically alluded to in his post-match comments. If so then much of the responsibility lies on Giggs' shoulders for his team selection - in particular his omission of Jonny Williams from the starting eleven. Prior to Joniesta's introduction just about the only occasions we managed to progress the ball in a controlled manner from the middle to the final third was when Rodon went on a couple of mazy runs up to the edge of the Azeri box, before making a possession-retaining pass. A bit embarrassing for the likes of Bale that a rookie centre back earning his first cap was showing what was needed. Joniesta took that to a whole new level. Every time he dropped deep he attacked any space or half-space, before laying on an accurate pass to feet, giving us base camp around the opposition area. His leadership by example helped the rest of the team raise their game, with good link-up play on the right between Roberts, Allen and James.
The big question for me is whether or not the penny has finally dropped for Giggs? If he has any sort of acumen at all as a manager he should now understand the need for balance between goal-scoring players and those, such as Joniesta, who provide the ammunition. The one outstanding performance of Giggs' tenure came in the home match against ROI, when we had round pegs in round holes, and good balance all-round. With this in mind, even if Ramsey is available for the next double header Giggs should keep Jonny Williams in the team. I think he would be far better at playing the short-passing triangles on the right with Allen and Roberts than Wilson (or perhaps even Brooks at this stage of his career). Against Slovakia away and Croatia at home hanging on to possession for sustained periods is not something that's going to happen if we have too many attacking players who are weak at combination play, as we saw against the Azeris.
The all-important question on my mind - does Giggs have any capacity to recognize where he's been going wrong and make the necessary adjustments? Given his repeated tactical mistakes (e.g. 4-4-2 away to Denmark) I'm not optimistic, but if he doesn't learn from the glaring errors in team composition from the off on Friday then he never will.
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Post by iot on Sept 8, 2019 21:39:09 GMT
Having watched the match again I'm a little bit more optimistic about the rest of the campaign. One of the main impressions I gained watching the game from a more dispassionate perspective was that Azerbaijan were a much better side than we all gave them credit for before the game. They were far better than the likes of Andorra - probably on a par with Moldova, who we struggled to beat away last time out. They defended their box very well, with countless blocks, showed good technical ability in tight areas (better than us in fact), and had some quality in their side, reflected in the best bit of footie in the whole evening - the perfectly weighted, outside of the boot pass that set up their equalizer. With this in mind, it puts our victory in a better light. Allen and Ampadu were better than people (myself included) rated them post-match. Neither were near their best, and both misplaced a few more passes than usual - but they both put in decent performances. The problems we had lay very much elsewhere, most notably in the performances of Lawrence, Wilson, Taylor and Hennessey. To be fair, Wilson did do one or two things well, but by and large he had a poor game - not least with his three corners all failing to gain any sort of elevation - what the hell was going on there? Very much a bad day at the office. More disappointing in many ways was his anonymous performance in general, rarely offering himself to link play, reinforcing my suspicion that he's got a long way to go in terms of the development of his all-round game. It was a bit understandable that Taylor wasn't at his best, given that he's never played with Rodon and James previously, and the fact that he's been absent from the national side for so long. Having said that he surrendered possession far too easily on too many occasions (and not just the equalizer) with over-ambitious longer balls. Hopefully Davies will have gained some precious game time and match fitness by the Slovakia match. Given Davies' lack of match fitness (which showed in his cameo) I can't really blame Giggs for Taylor's selection, nor Hennessey's for that matter. However, selecting Lawrence as a number 9 was a really dumb decision, which anybody who's seen Lawrence play for Wales would know was going to fail. I felt for him, because his game is so unsuited to the role. He failed miserably to hold up play with his back to goal, or succeed in attempted lay-offs. Less excusable was his consistent failure to make anticipatory runs to several near-post crosses from James and Bale. There was also a good chance where he received the ball well inside the Azeri box from a James cross, with back to goal and just one defender between him and the goal. But his attempted spin and shot failed miserably. All-in-all a pretty poor showing from Lawrence - but he should never have been put in that position in the first place. It would have been great for Giggs to have had the humility to acknowledge his mistake in this regard. His insistence on simply blaming the players is probably the main reason for doubting his ability to put things right. The problem against Azerbaijan was getting a platform in and around the opposition penalty area for sustained periods - due to the aforementioned poor hold-up play, but moreso the lack of patience and willingness to ratchet up the pressure by high tempo, short-passing movements with low risk passes. The entire front four were culpable, even Bale - and I wonder if this is what Giggs cryptically alluded to in his post-match comments. If so then much of the responsibility lies on Giggs' shoulders for his team selection - in particular his omission of Jonny Williams from the starting eleven. Prior to Joniesta's introduction just about the only occasions we managed to progress the ball in a controlled manner from the middle to the final third was when Rodon went on a couple of mazy runs up to the edge of the Azeri box, before making a possession-retaining pass. A bit embarrassing for the likes of Bale that a rookie centre back earning his first cap was showing what was needed. Joniesta took that to a whole new level. Every time he dropped deep he attacked any space or half-space, before laying on an accurate pass to feet, giving us base camp around the opposition area. His leadership by example helped the rest of the team raise their game, with good link-up play on the right between Roberts, Allen and James. The big question for me is whether or not the penny has finally dropped for Giggs? If he has any sort of acumen at all as a manager he should now understand the need for balance between goal-scoring players and those, such as Joniesta, who provide the ammunition. The one outstanding performance of Giggs' tenure came in the home match against ROI, when we had round pegs in round holes, and good balance all-round. With this in mind, even if Ramsey is available for the next double header Giggs should keep Jonny Williams in the team. I think he would be far better at playing the short-passing triangles on the right with Allen and Roberts than Wilson (or perhaps even Brooks at this stage of his career). Against Slovakia away and Croatia at home hanging on to possession for sustained periods is not something that's going to happen if we have too many attacking players who are weak at combination play, as we saw against the Azeris. The all-important question on my mind - does Giggs have any capacity to recognize where he's been going wrong and make the necessary adjustments? Given his repeated tactical mistakes (e.g. 4-4-2 away to Denmark) I'm not optimistic, but if he doesn't learn from the glaring errors in team composition from the off on Friday then he never will. I too watched the game back today and agreed with much, if not all, of this. As you say, they were better than we'd given them credit for either before or during the game. We also weren't as bad as I'd initially thought, particularly allen who at the time I thought had a terrible performance, but on second viewing he did ok. I disagree with you on ampadu who I thought played quite well when watching it live, but on second viewing his movement was really poor which added to our inability to disrupt their play and a better team would have punished us more for it. As has been said a few times, the main reason for the poor performance cam down do the lack of balance in the starting xi. We had four finishers who don't offer much by way of patient build up play, and then two midfielders with a big gap between the two lines. We need a third midfielder in there instead of either wilson or lawrence. Joniesta did really well, but he's not at the same level as a fit ramsey so Rambo should always start alongside allen and ampadu/smith. The best balance for me would be: Hennessey Roberts Mepham Rodon Davies Allen Ampadu/Smith Ramsey Brooks Bale James Joniesta, Wilson and Lawrence off the bench to change things if needs be.
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Post by alarch on Sept 8, 2019 21:48:35 GMT
I agree with much of that. I suppose I was a bit generous in relation to Ampadu in view of his lack of game time and pre-season. I thought he did well considering - but yes he wasn't great.
It would be hard to argue for Jonny Williams starting ahead of Ramsey for sure - but they're not really like for like players. Ramsey has much more by way of passing range, goalscoring and assist making capability - but can be very inconsistent when it comes to ball retention. I think we should look for ways to include both.
I think the chance of Brooks being ready for the upcoming double-header is extremely remote, even if notionally available. He's a terrific prospect, but is still a bit green. So even if he was fully fit I think I'd go with Joniesta ahead of him. Brooks would be a terrific option off the bench - but first we need to exert control and dominance. Joniesta will help us achieve that aim in my opinion.
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Post by majorraglan on Sept 8, 2019 22:21:48 GMT
Having watched the match again I'm a little bit more optimistic about the rest of the campaign. One of the main impressions I gained watching the game from a more dispassionate perspective was that Azerbaijan were a much better side than we all gave them credit for before the game. They were far better than the likes of Andorra - probably on a par with Moldova, who we struggled to beat away last time out. They defended their box very well, with countless blocks, showed good technical ability in tight areas (better than us in fact), and had some quality in their side, reflected in the best bit of footie in the whole evening - the perfectly weighted, outside of the boot pass that set up their equalizer. With this in mind, it puts our victory in a better light. Allen and Ampadu were better than people (myself included) rated them post-match. Neither were near their best, and both misplaced a few more passes than usual - but they both put in decent performances. The problems we had lay very much elsewhere, most notably in the performances of Lawrence, Wilson, Taylor and Hennessey. To be fair, Wilson did do one or two things well, but by and large he had a poor game - not least with his three corners all failing to gain any sort of elevation - what the hell was going on there? Very much a bad day at the office. More disappointing in many ways was his anonymous performance in general, rarely offering himself to link play, reinforcing my suspicion that he's got a long way to go in terms of the development of his all-round game. It was a bit understandable that Taylor wasn't at his best, given that he's never played with Rodon and James previously, and the fact that he's been absent from the national side for so long. Having said that he surrendered possession far too easily on too many occasions (and not just the equalizer) with over-ambitious longer balls. Hopefully Davies will have gained some precious game time and match fitness by the Slovakia match. Given Davies' lack of match fitness (which showed in his cameo) I can't really blame Giggs for Taylor's selection, nor Hennessey's for that matter. However, selecting Lawrence as a number 9 was a really dumb decision, which anybody who's seen Lawrence play for Wales would know was going to fail. I felt for him, because his game is so unsuited to the role. He failed miserably to hold up play with his back to goal, or succeed in attempted lay-offs. Less excusable was his consistent failure to make anticipatory runs to several near-post crosses from James and Bale. There was also a good chance where he received the ball well inside the Azeri box from a James cross, with back to goal and just one defender between him and the goal. But his attempted spin and shot failed miserably. All-in-all a pretty poor showing from Lawrence - but he should never have been put in that position in the first place. It would have been great for Giggs to have had the humility to acknowledge his mistake in this regard. His insistence on simply blaming the players is probably the main reason for doubting his ability to put things right. The problem against Azerbaijan was getting a platform in and around the opposition penalty area for sustained periods - due to the aforementioned poor hold-up play, but moreso the lack of patience and willingness to ratchet up the pressure by high tempo, short-passing movements with low risk passes. The entire front four were culpable, even Bale - and I wonder if this is what Giggs cryptically alluded to in his post-match comments. If so then much of the responsibility lies on Giggs' shoulders for his team selection - in particular his omission of Jonny Williams from the starting eleven. Prior to Joniesta's introduction just about the only occasions we managed to progress the ball in a controlled manner from the middle to the final third was when Rodon went on a couple of mazy runs up to the edge of the Azeri box, before making a possession-retaining pass. A bit embarrassing for the likes of Bale that a rookie centre back earning his first cap was showing what was needed. Joniesta took that to a whole new level. Every time he dropped deep he attacked any space or half-space, before laying on an accurate pass to feet, giving us base camp around the opposition area. His leadership by example helped the rest of the team raise their game, with good link-up play on the right between Roberts, Allen and James. The big question for me is whether or not the penny has finally dropped for Giggs? If he has any sort of acumen at all as a manager he should now understand the need for balance between goal-scoring players and those, such as Joniesta, who provide the ammunition. The one outstanding performance of Giggs' tenure came in the home match against ROI, when we had round pegs in round holes, and good balance all-round. With this in mind, even if Ramsey is available for the next double header Giggs should keep Jonny Williams in the team. I think he would be far better at playing the short-passing triangles on the right with Allen and Roberts than Wilson (or perhaps even Brooks at this stage of his career). Against Slovakia away and Croatia at home hanging on to possession for sustained periods is not something that's going to happen if we have too many attacking players who are weak at combination play, as we saw against the Azeris. The all-important question on my mind - does Giggs have any capacity to recognize where he's been going wrong and make the necessary adjustments? Given his repeated tactical mistakes (e.g. 4-4-2 away to Denmark) I'm not optimistic, but if he doesn't learn from the glaring errors in team composition from the off on Friday then he never will. Saw the size of the post and thought I cant be asked to read it, but I am glad I did. Good post which summarises exactly what I thought of the game on a Friday. I am concerned about the double header thatâs coming up, Giggs needs to up his game and thereâs not much sign of that happening. I have always liked Joniesta and thought he made a big difference on Friday, I was just surprised it took Giggs an hour to make some changes.
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Post by insertname on Sept 8, 2019 22:53:25 GMT
With respect, did anybody really think that Azerbaijan were on the same level of Andorra? They were one of the tougher lower seeds and in the criticism of Giggs I do think people overlooked that they have found a way to score against all the teams in this group so they have something about them.
That being said it would always be the case that we have more of the ball being at home and they would sit back and try and come away with a draw. On that basis I really think that even a scratch Wales team with round pegs in square holes should be beating them, maybe not well, but edging them out with a tactical plan only adding to the score. I donât like the phrase âwe just need to turn up to winâ but really with the players we have we should be able to find a way to win a game like that even when playing poorly. So it was the expected result for me, 2-1 although the goals were fortuitous and needing a late winner not ideal. A performance would have been great but in hindsight we always make hard work of the bottom seed so Iâm just grateful for a win now.
I certainly wouldnât feel the same about just needing to turn up for the reverse fixture though, decent Wales sides have found a way not to win when travelling to these remote states many times in the past and given our troubles at the moment I think people are in danger of over-looking that game. It will still be pretty embarrassing not to win so I wouldnât accept a draw now if offered but I bloody well would take another scrappy, crappy 1-0 or 2-1 win. The result will be all that matters there.
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Post by marsvolta on Sept 9, 2019 5:41:53 GMT
With respect, did anybody really think that Azerbaijan were on the same level of Andorra? They were one of the tougher lower seeds and in the criticism of Giggs I do think people overlooked that they have found a way to score against all the teams in this group so they have something about them. That being said it would always be the case that we have more of the ball being at home and they would sit back and try and come away with a draw. On that basis I really think that even a scratch Wales team with round pegs in square holes should be beating them, maybe not well, but edging them out with a tactical plan only adding to the score. I donât like the phrase âwe just need to turn up to winâ but really with the players we have we should be able to find a way to win a game like that even when playing poorly. So it was the expected result for me, 2-1 although the goals were fortuitous and needing a late winner not ideal. A performance would have been great but in hindsight we always make hard work of the bottom seed so Iâm just grateful for a win now. I certainly wouldnât feel the same about just needing to turn up for the reverse fixture though, decent Wales sides have found a way not to win when travelling to these remote states many times in the past and given our troubles at the moment I think people are in danger of over-looking that game. It will still be pretty embarrassing not to win so I wouldnât accept a draw now if offered but I bloody well would take another scrappy, crappy 1-0 or 2-1 win. The result will be all that matters there. Definitely, weâve drawn away to Azerbaijan in the past. 3 points needed, irrespective of how scrappy the game is.
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Post by allezlesrouges on Sept 9, 2019 7:16:48 GMT
With respect, did anybody really think that Azerbaijan were on the same level of Andorra? They were one of the tougher lower seeds and in the criticism of Giggs I do think people overlooked that they have found a way to score against all the teams in this group so they have something about them. That being said it would always be the case that we have more of the ball being at home and they would sit back and try and come away with a draw. On that basis I really think that even a scratch Wales team with round pegs in square holes should be beating them, maybe not well, but edging them out with a tactical plan only adding to the score. I donât like the phrase âwe just need to turn up to winâ but really with the players we have we should be able to find a way to win a game like that even when playing poorly. So it was the expected result for me, 2-1 although the goals were fortuitous and needing a late winner not ideal. A performance would have been great but in hindsight we always make hard work of the bottom seed so Iâm just grateful for a win now. I certainly wouldnât feel the same about just needing to turn up for the reverse fixture though, decent Wales sides have found a way not to win when travelling to these remote states many times in the past and given our troubles at the moment I think people are in danger of over-looking that game. It will still be pretty embarrassing not to win so I wouldnât accept a draw now if offered but I bloody well would take another scrappy, crappy 1-0 or 2-1 win. The result will be all that matters there. I have a feeling the away leg will be a bit easier. Looking at their results, Azerbaijan have come closer away from home (us and Croatia), than they have at home (Hungary, Slovakia). I think this is because at home they tend to take more possession further up the pitch at home, which leaves them more open at the back. Away from home they are backs to the wall and this suits them better. It wouldn't be a bad tactics to drop off more against them ourselves. Make them come out of their low block and give us some space to counter on them.
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Post by dai on Sept 9, 2019 8:37:14 GMT
The issue I have with this whole 'Azerbaijan are better than we thought' talk is that they're really not. Slovakia and Hungary beat them comfortably 1-3 and 1-5. It was the same story during the previous qualifiers - most teams battered Andorra while we struggled to score against them home and away.
The issue is with us, our game plan, and complete ineptitude up front. I don't know what the answer is though.
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vader
steve evans
Posts: 29
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Post by vader on Sept 9, 2019 11:15:36 GMT
The game Friday was dismal viewing, but as others have mentioned I think a bit of perspective is required.
Firstly, we are not as good as a lot of us would like to believe (with or without Giggs). Sure we have a very talented bunch of youngsters and a couple of world class players, but the youngsters are of course still very young and are yet to reach their potential or come anywhere near close to getting some consistency into their game. They are mostly inexperienced at club level, never mind international football.
IMO, our most important player is Ramsey, and he has been missing for large parts of Giggs' tenure so far, and on that note I'm not sure there's been a single game that Giggs has been able to field our strongest possible line up? We came close in the two ROI games in the Nations League, and for a small nation who is reliant on such a tiny core of quality players it is a huge deal.
A lot of people wanted to see the Xi who started Friday, with maybe a few small differences in one or two positions but it was hardly outrageous. We just played really badly and missed the link between midfield and attack (Ramsey) as Wilson offered close to nothing. Williams was the correct sub and he had the required impact, and the manager even mentioned afterwards that he was unlucky not to start so he realised the mistake made.
Hopefully we can have a fit and coherent squad for the next round of qualifiers, the margins for us are so thin and we need our best team to be playing in order to get the results needed.
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Post by allezlesrouges on Sept 9, 2019 11:21:31 GMT
The issue I have with this whole 'Azerbaijan are better than we thought' talk is that they're really not. Slovakia and Hungary beat them comfortably 1-3 and 1-5. It was the same story during the previous qualifiers - most teams battered Andorra while we struggled to score against them home and away. The issue is with us, our game plan, and complete ineptitude up front. I don't know what the answer is though. Rubbish. Go and actually watch the highlights in those games. Slovakia scored 4 shots from outside the box, and Hungary scored 2 from set pieces. They are not an easy team to breakdown in open play. Hence why the world cup finalists struggled in a similar way to us in their home fixture vs Azerbaijan.
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Post by CrackityJones on Sept 9, 2019 11:26:22 GMT
The game Friday was dismal viewing, but as others have mentioned I think a bit of perspective is required. Firstly, we are not as good as a lot of us would like to believe (with or without Giggs). Sure we have a very talented bunch of youngsters and a couple of world class players, but the youngsters are of course still very young and are yet to reach their potential or come anywhere near close to getting some consistency into their game. They are mostly inexperienced at club level, never mind international football. IMO, our most important player is Ramsey, and he has been missing for large parts of Giggs' tenure so far, and on that note I'm not sure there's been a single game that Giggs has been able to field our strongest possible line up? We came close in the two ROI games in the Nations League, and for a small nation who is reliant on such a tiny core of quality players it is a huge deal. A lot of people wanted to see the Xi who started Friday, with maybe a few small differences in one or two positions but it was hardly outrageous. We just played really badly and missed the link between midfield and attack (Ramsey) as Wilson offered close to nothing. Williams was the correct sub and he had the required impact, and the manager even mentioned afterwards that he was unlucky not to start so he realised the mistake made. Hopefully we can have a fit and coherent squad for the next round of qualifiers, the margins for us are so thin and we need our best team to be playing in order to get the results needed.
Good post. I agree that Ramsey is going to be absolutely vital to us getting the results we need to qualify. We desperately need him out in Slovakia, hopefully he'll be fully fit and firing by then.
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Post by alarch on Sept 9, 2019 11:39:52 GMT
The game Friday was dismal viewing, but as others have mentioned I think a bit of perspective is required. Firstly, we are not as good as a lot of us would like to believe (with or without Giggs). Sure we have a very talented bunch of youngsters and a couple of world class players, but the youngsters are of course still very young and are yet to reach their potential or come anywhere near close to getting some consistency into their game. They are mostly inexperienced at club level, never mind international football. IMO, our most important player is Ramsey, and he has been missing for large parts of Giggs' tenure so far, and on that note I'm not sure there's been a single game that Giggs has been able to field our strongest possible line up? We came close in the two ROI games in the Nations League, and for a small nation who is reliant on such a tiny core of quality players it is a huge deal. A lot of people wanted to see the Xi who started Friday, with maybe a few small differences in one or two positions but it was hardly outrageous. We just played really badly and missed the link between midfield and attack (Ramsey) as Wilson offered close to nothing. Williams was the correct sub and he had the required impact, and the manager even mentioned afterwards that he was unlucky not to start so he realised the mistake made. Hopefully we can have a fit and coherent squad for the next round of qualifiers, the margins for us are so thin and we need our best team to be playing in order to get the results needed. You make a lot of very reasonable points, but it does remind me of the sort of apologist stuff we get from Wales Online and Abbandonato in particular. The game against ROI at home we fielded pretty much our strongest 11, including the BRA holy trinity of Bale, Ramsey and Allen - and every player played in a sensible position in a sensible formation. It showed. Next game, within a few days, we go out to Denmark with the same side available and needlessly switch to a 4-4-2 - with Ramsey playing alongside Bale and Connor Roberts playing as a winger in front of Gunter - wtf! The result, unsurprisingly, was an incoherent performance and a 2-0 defeat. The pattern since has been the same. Yes, player absences have played a part - but then it doesn't explain mystifying decisions like dropping the right-sided Mepham for the Hungary game, resulting in two left-sided centre backs - with one of them, in Lawrence, largely responsible for the loss to Croatia. The fact that some were happy with the line-up versus Azerbaijan says more about their footballing judgement than anything - a bit of a straw man argument that one. A number of us voiced our misgivings about the lineup - and the avoidable lack of balance it produced. The more people make apologies for Giggs the more annoyed I get - especially when he's demonstrated publically that he hasn't a clue that Mepham and Rodon had formed a partnership at U21 level for some period of time. There's no excuse for that basic lack of professionalism.
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Post by iot on Sept 9, 2019 12:08:16 GMT
Agreed, we need to avoid this apologism. My particular bugbear is the line continually trotted out that we should lower our expectations given our young crop of players are not in their prime. As such a small nation, we're unlikely to ever get a side where the whole team is at their peak - we're always going to rely on a bunch of players that are in their prime and those who are on their way up. This is no different. If we simply accept that line and wait until that group of players reach their prime, we lose the best years of Bale, Ramsey and Allen. It's no excuse, this is one of the best squads we've had and it would be criminal to sacrifice this campaign as part of a longer term plan.
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Post by insertname on Sept 9, 2019 13:08:36 GMT
With respect, did anybody really think that Azerbaijan were on the same level of Andorra? They were one of the tougher lower seeds and in the criticism of Giggs I do think people overlooked that they have found a way to score against all the teams in this group so they have something about them. That being said it would always be the case that we have more of the ball being at home and they would sit back and try and come away with a draw. On that basis I really think that even a scratch Wales team with round pegs in square holes should be beating them, maybe not well, but edging them out with a tactical plan only adding to the score. I donât like the phrase âwe just need to turn up to winâ but really with the players we have we should be able to find a way to win a game like that even when playing poorly. So it was the expected result for me, 2-1 although the goals were fortuitous and needing a late winner not ideal. A performance would have been great but in hindsight we always make hard work of the bottom seed so Iâm just grateful for a win now. I certainly wouldnât feel the same about just needing to turn up for the reverse fixture though, decent Wales sides have found a way not to win when travelling to these remote states many times in the past and given our troubles at the moment I think people are in danger of over-looking that game. It will still be pretty embarrassing not to win so I wouldnât accept a draw now if offered but I bloody well would take another scrappy, crappy 1-0 or 2-1 win. The result will be all that matters there. I have a feeling the away leg will be a bit easier. Looking at their results, Azerbaijan have come closer away from home (us and Croatia), than they have at home (Hungary, Slovakia). I think this is because at home they tend to take more possession further up the pitch at home, which leaves them more open at the back. Away from home they are backs to the wall and this suits them better. It wouldn't be a bad tactics to drop off more against them ourselves. Make them come out of their low block and give us some space to counter on them. Interesting analysis but would they really push up if Dan James is playing? We are seeing that his presence forces teams to drop deep. Not sure that is a good thing for us given how we struggle to break teams down.
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Post by alarch on Sept 9, 2019 13:45:13 GMT
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Post by alarch on Sept 9, 2019 13:53:58 GMT
At least this article by the PA offers some sort of scrutiny of our performance against the Azeris: sport360.com/article/football/international-football/334215/ryan-giggs-under-pressure-as-wales-boss-but-gareth-bale-back-to-best-and-joe-rodon-on-the-rise These comments grasp the essence of the complaints: "TACTICAL APPROACH Giggsâ post-Azerbaijan briefing came across as muddled, saying his players were too hasty in their passing and in the next breath accusing them of being too slow. What is clear is that Wales are an unbalanced unit, with Giggs trying to shoehorn his rich attacking options into a team framework." My optimistic interpretation of Giggs' post-match comments is that he wanted Cymru to play a high-tempo, short-passing, possession-retaining game. What we got was low tempo passing in the middle third, but over-ambitious, impatient passing into and within the final third. If that is indeed is what he wants from our team I would be encouraged - although it still wouldn't explain Lawrence at number 9, nor the absence of Joniesta from the starting eleven. But, who knows, perhaps there really is a God, and Giggs has finally realised that to play a high tempo possession game we need players who can pass the ball reliably. On that note - Rodon managed a 94% pass completion on his debut. Very impressive - especially when you consider that two of his completed 75 passes came at the end of dribbles up to the edge of the Azeri penalty area, and also the pass into Bale's feet for the opener.
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Post by pendragon on Sept 9, 2019 16:09:37 GMT
The issue I have with this whole 'Azerbaijan are better than we thought' talk is that they're really not. Slovakia and Hungary beat them comfortably 1-3 and 1-5. It was the same story during the previous qualifiers - most teams battered Andorra while we struggled to score against them home and away. The issue is with us, our game plan, and complete ineptitude up front. I don't know what the answer is though. While given their previous results, it would be reasonable to assume that they're not a very good team, equally, those results might also explain why they were such a dangerous opponent for us on Friday. I completely agree that we should have done far better performance-wise and results-wise, but they had just suffered two catastrophic defeats. There was always a chance they were going to come out fighting, particularly given the fact they - like us - had been given the time to "regroup", reflect on what went wrong for them and identify strengths, weaknesses and areas for improvement etc. It is not necessarily so that they were would capitulate. It was a similar story for us against Moldova in the qualifiers, who came out fighting at home. As poor as Azerbaijan are, they are relatively effective as a defensive unit, as the Croats have also found.
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Post by allezlesrouges on Sept 9, 2019 16:10:06 GMT
I have a feeling the away leg will be a bit easier. Looking at their results, Azerbaijan have come closer away from home (us and Croatia), than they have at home (Hungary, Slovakia). I think this is because at home they tend to take more possession further up the pitch at home, which leaves them more open at the back. Away from home they are backs to the wall and this suits them better. It wouldn't be a bad tactics to drop off more against them ourselves. Make them come out of their low block and give us some space to counter on them. Interesting analysis but would they really push up if Dan James is playing? We are seeing that his presence forces teams to drop deep. Not sure that is a good thing for us given how we struggle to break teams down. They undoubtedly would look to drop in as much as they could, as they'd recognise this as our strength. However, teams tend to have more possession at home, and tend to be under more pressure to play in the final third in front of their own fans, which may mean less defensive stability. But I agree we have to be careful of teams cancelling out our pace too much.
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Post by oscardelta on Sept 9, 2019 16:50:58 GMT
Agreed, we need to avoid this apologism. My particular bugbear is the line continually trotted out that we should lower our expectations given our young crop of players are not in their prime. As such a small nation, we're unlikely to ever get a side where the whole team is at their peak - we're always going to rely on a bunch of players that are in their prime and those who are on their way up. This is no different. If we simply accept that line and wait until that group of players reach their prime, we lose the best years of Bale, Ramsey and Allen. It's no excuse, this is one of the best squads we've had and it would be criminal to sacrifice this campaign as part of a longer term plan. Hmmmm
I go into every qualification assumming we will qualify or get to a play off position, even when we are playing crap, ok with exception of Nations League.
Wales have a very good squad, just need a very good team.
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Post by rushy on Sept 9, 2019 16:56:57 GMT
Don't think I'd live long enough to read all the recent posts, but I get the gist. Just to make my point l shall keep it brief, we were and are unbalanced and Ramsey and Brooks would see a major improvement in us, however being unbalanced should not stop us putting two passes together. Plus Giggs was expecting too much from inexperienced players in a must win game,which shows his own inexperience.
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