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Post by johnoster on Nov 28, 2019 11:56:43 GMT
As good as he was yesterday (has been recently) we need to let go of some of the players from 2016. For me this includes HRK, Andy King, Joe Ledley and Chris Gunter. Anyone calling for the return of these players clearly has a trouble moving on as they are nowhere near good enough to be involved. We have several players who are an improvement on these so let's see the change of personnel as a positive. Very harsh on Gunter. Quality defender, average going forward, you'd be glad to have him alongside you in the trenches, solid 7/10 every game.
I think Gunter should go to the Euros, but after that keeping him could be stifling the progress of younger players. Neco has the potential to overtake Connor as our first choice RB, but not for a few years.
After the Euros I'd look to have Neco as backup RB in the squad.
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Post by superunknown on Nov 28, 2019 12:00:47 GMT
All comes down to a) his reasons for retiring, b) if he has been in contact with the FAW and Giggs in the meantime and c) if the players are aware and on-board. If he passes all three of those then I'd have him back. Even if he does though we will prtobably never know for sure on the outside. So we kind of have to trust everyone at the FAW on this. Retired to focus on his cryptocurrency business and family. Which is fine, sounded more of an excuse to focus on his club career but whatever, he did a lot for us. Now out of nowhere, he's seemingly willing to come out of retirement, must have focussed on his business and family as much as he could and is ready for international football as well. You have to ask yourself would he have done it if we hadn't have qualified. In my opinion he wouldn't be and is looking to put himself in the shop window. We don't need him back and it's a slap in the face to the players who have made themselves available throughout the campaign and one of them would miss out because Hal now decides he's an international footballer again. Sends a crap message that players can just pick and choose what games they play in when the mood takes them. Bale travelled out to China and Albania for meaningless friendlies and Hal retires at 29, just not buying it.
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Post by richierich333 on Nov 28, 2019 12:08:01 GMT
As good as he was yesterday (has been recently) we need to let go of some of the players from 2016. For me this includes HRK, Andy King, Joe Ledley and Chris Gunter. Anyone calling for the return of these players clearly has a trouble moving on as they are nowhere near good enough to be involved. We have several players who are an improvement on these so let's see the change of personnel as a positive. Very harsh on Gunter. Quality defender, average going forward, you'd be glad to have him alongside you in the trenches, solid 7/10 every game. Perhaps but sentiment must go out the window at this level. You don't get a free pass into the squad and Gunter is no exception. He has not done enough to warrant inclusion i.e. He would not be able to complete this sentence: ' I deserve to be in this squad because...'
He has played one game for Reading but if he's getting regular football again and playing well, sure, he warrants a squad place.
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Post by iot on Nov 28, 2019 12:38:07 GMT
The cynic in me's thinking he's thought about how much he gained personally from playing in the last euros (raised profile and the WBA move) and is hoping for some more. I doubt it's for altruistic / patriotic reasons. He would be a handy squad member though, I suspect he'd be far more effective than vokes/roberts/bradshaw etc. in replacing moore for the last 20mins - be it to hold onto a result or chasing a goal I was thinking more about personal glory, but you’re right he’s probably thinking of the shop window considering what the last one did for him. One last pay day before he retires. For me, he’s the same as Lawrence and Roberts: not a target man, not a winger, not really a typical nine in the way that Bradshaw is, although he’s got an eye for goal on occasion. Even if it were Messi I’d prefer to see some loyalty shown to the players who turned up in Croatia and Hungary at the end of the season when it would be easier to go on holiday. I think you do him a slight disservice in terms of what he offers. He's not a targetman, but he's incredibly strong. If you play it into his feet with defender in close quarters, more often than not he'll hold onto the ball and play people in. He's also tireless and runs the channels really well, turning bad balls into good ones and giving an outlet that way, rather than just lumping it long more centrally like we do with moore. He seems to have become more prolific this season too so I think he would be a really valuable squad member, but I agree with you it would just leave too much of a bad taste in the mouth, so he shouldn't be selected.
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Post by iot on Nov 28, 2019 12:43:26 GMT
Very harsh on Gunter. Quality defender, average going forward, you'd be glad to have him alongside you in the trenches, solid 7/10 every game. Perhaps but sentiment must go out the window at this level. You don't get a free pass into the squad and Gunter is no exception. He has not done enough to warrant inclusion i.e. He would not be able to complete this sentence: ' I deserve to be in this squad because...'
He has played one game for Reading but if he's getting regular football again and playing well, sure, he warrants a squad place.
We should only move on from '16 players when better alternatives are found. I don't think that's an argument to move on from Hal, because neither vokes, roberts or bradshaw have shown that they can offer what he does. So I wouldn't say that's a reason for not selecting him, it's more of a morale one for me + the effect it would have on other squad members. I also don't think any backup right backs have done enough to dislodge gunter yet, so he doesn't deserve to be dropped. Agree on the others.
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Post by richierich333 on Nov 28, 2019 13:09:22 GMT
Perhaps but sentiment must go out the window at this level. You don't get a free pass into the squad and Gunter is no exception. He has not done enough to warrant inclusion i.e. He would not be able to complete this sentence: ' I deserve to be in this squad because...'
He has played one game for Reading but if he's getting regular football again and playing well, sure, he warrants a squad place.
We should only move on from '16 players when better alternatives are found. I don't think that's an argument to move on from Hal, because neither vokes, roberts or bradshaw have shown that they can offer what he does. So I wouldn't say that's a reason for not selecting him, it's more of a morale one for me + the effect it would have on other squad members. I also don't think any backup right backs have done enough to dislodge gunter yet, so he doesn't deserve to be dropped. Agree on the others. The timing of his plea is rather suspect and smacks of personal gains.
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Post by bale-droed on Nov 28, 2019 13:15:49 GMT
Welcome back HAL, You can play your first game in the nations league or world cup qualifiers. You might not get into the team so just like Vokes you'll need to fight for it. Cheers butt
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Post by welshiron on Nov 28, 2019 13:25:11 GMT
Very harsh on Gunter. Quality defender, average going forward, you'd be glad to have him alongside you in the trenches, solid 7/10 every game. Perhaps but sentiment must go out the window at this level. You don't get a free pass into the squad and Gunter is no exception. He has not done enough to warrant inclusion i.e. He would not be able to complete this sentence: ' I deserve to be in this squad because...'
He has played one game for Reading but if he's getting regular football again and playing well, sure, he warrants a squad place.
I have over 90 caps and have been available for every game. I can cover right back centre half and left back. Proud welshman with vast experience who will never quit on the team. Also played this week
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Post by richierich333 on Nov 28, 2019 13:55:05 GMT
Young Connor has blown him out of the water and it won't be long before another right back comes of age. We including myself in this have gone away from Hal
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Post by allezlesrouges on Nov 28, 2019 14:05:19 GMT
Awful timing from Hal. Even if he made himself available halfway through the campaign he would have gotten away with it.
What I would say is, okay you want to come back to play for us, we will consider you for the World Cup campaign and you can help us qualify and earn the right to be in the squad. In the meantime cheer the boys on at 2020.
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Post by welshiron on Nov 28, 2019 14:23:06 GMT
Young Connor has blown him out of the water and it won't be long before another right back comes of age. We including myself in this have gone away from Hal But did it not answer the question you were asking? We dont have 2 better right backs than Gunter. As for Hal he can do one, quitting at 28 and now wanting back in. Feck right off.
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Post by insertname on Nov 28, 2019 16:43:29 GMT
I was thinking more about personal glory, but you’re right he’s probably thinking of the shop window considering what the last one did for him. One last pay day before he retires. For me, he’s the same as Lawrence and Roberts: not a target man, not a winger, not really a typical nine in the way that Bradshaw is, although he’s got an eye for goal on occasion. Even if it were Messi I’d prefer to see some loyalty shown to the players who turned up in Croatia and Hungary at the end of the season when it would be easier to go on holiday. I think you do him a slight disservice in terms of what he offers. He's not a targetman, but he's incredibly strong. If you play it into his feet with defender in close quarters, more often than not he'll hold onto the ball and play people in. He's also tireless and runs the channels really well, turning bad balls into good ones and giving an outlet that way, rather than just lumping it long more centrally like we do with moore. He seems to have become more prolific this season too so I think he would be a really valuable squad member, but I agree with you it would just leave too much of a bad taste in the mouth, so he shouldn't be selected. Fair points, I think for me he just never really stood out (Belgium goal aside obviously) or brought something different. But now you mention it I do recall that he was a good outlet at times by chasing a few aimless balls down the channels (Cyprus at home in particular occurs to me, perhaps because he scored by running onto a through ball IIRC).
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Post by insertname on Nov 28, 2019 16:45:44 GMT
Awful timing from Hal. Even if he made himself available halfway through the campaign he would have gotten away with it. What I would say is, okay you want to come back to play for us, we will consider you for the World Cup campaign and you can help us qualify and earn the right to be in the squad. In the meantime cheer the boys on at 2020. What will be interesting is if he is pictured at any of the games, Toby Faletau (amongst others) was pictured in France hanging out with other fans. Or maybe we’ll see the dreaded cheering for England tweet if he doesn’t get called up
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Post by TheWelshWay on Nov 28, 2019 17:08:57 GMT
Awful timing from Hal. Even if he made himself available halfway through the campaign he would have gotten away with it. What I would say is, okay you want to come back to play for us, we will consider you for the World Cup campaign and you can help us qualify and earn the right to be in the squad. In the meantime cheer the boys on at 2020. What will be interesting is if he is pictured at any of the games, Toby Faletau (amongst others) was pictured in France hanging out with other fans. Or maybe we’ll see the dreaded cheering for England tweet if he doesn’t get called up Harry Wilson was in a bucket hat #oneofus
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Post by iot on Nov 28, 2019 17:09:00 GMT
I think you do him a slight disservice in terms of what he offers. He's not a targetman, but he's incredibly strong. If you play it into his feet with defender in close quarters, more often than not he'll hold onto the ball and play people in. He's also tireless and runs the channels really well, turning bad balls into good ones and giving an outlet that way, rather than just lumping it long more centrally like we do with moore. He seems to have become more prolific this season too so I think he would be a really valuable squad member, but I agree with you it would just leave too much of a bad taste in the mouth, so he shouldn't be selected. Fair points, I think for me he just never really stood out (Belgium goal aside obviously) or brought something different. But now you mention it I do recall that he was a good outlet at times by chasing a few aimless balls down the channels (Cyprus at home in particular occurs to me, perhaps because he scored by running onto a through ball IIRC). In most of our tight, nervy games where we won and hal played, he was really important in giving us some breathing space through hold up play and running the channels - 1-0 against Belgium immediately springs to mind. His workrate also means that he occupied defenders like Moore does, but in a different way - through his running rather than the arial ability offered by Moore.
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Post by TheWelshWay on Nov 28, 2019 17:20:15 GMT
Fair points, I think for me he just never really stood out (Belgium goal aside obviously) or brought something different. But now you mention it I do recall that he was a good outlet at times by chasing a few aimless balls down the channels (Cyprus at home in particular occurs to me, perhaps because he scored by running onto a through ball IIRC). In most of our tight, nervy games where we won and hal played, he was really important in giving us some breathing space through hold up play and running the channels - 1-0 against Belgium immediately springs to mind. His workrate also means that he occupied defenders like Moore does, but in a different way - through his running rather than the arial ability offered by Moore. As much as i don't like that he can walk back in - the more i think about it, the more I'm inclined to take him over Vokes, Bradshaw or Doidge - proven, dependable, big game player who can find the net
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Post by georgetm1 on Nov 28, 2019 17:27:25 GMT
He never gave me the impression that he really got what being Welsh means. I love the guy for what he did, but he really doesn't deserve to just jump into the Euro's like that, especially after he quit on us.
Maybe if we have an abundance of injuries, but it would be completely unfair on the players that have stuck around for him to take their place on his whim.
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Post by CrackityJones on Dec 8, 2019 14:37:17 GMT
Hal’s been at it again...
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Post by marsvolta on Dec 9, 2019 14:19:52 GMT
Slaves Bilic has been quoted as saying that he ‘doesn’t see many players of Hal’s quality in the Welsh squad’
I’d love to see Hal return and he’s bang on form but we have many,many players of his quality.
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Post by iot on Dec 9, 2019 14:40:10 GMT
Slaves Bilic has been quoted as saying that he ‘doesn’t see many players of Hal’s quality in the Welsh squad’ I’d love to see Hal return and he’s bang on form but we have many,many players of his quality. To be fair, I read the article and think what he was trying to say got lost in translation slightly. The full sentence was: "I don't see many players of Hal's quality (in the Wales squad). They are different, but nobody has what Hal has. That's my opinion." He was trying to say, from my reading of it, that we don't have other players in the same mould as HRK, rather than our other players are not as good. It would be ridiculous to imply that bale, ramsey, james and brooks aren't as good as HRK, even for a club manager backing his player! I don't think that's what he meant. I sort of agree with him. He's clearly a very different proposition to moore and vokes. He's more similar to tyler roberts, but his aerial ability and hold up play is a lot better. Tyler Roberts may be the worst cf I've ever seen in terms of competing for the ball in the air. I don't think I've ever seen him win a header
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Post by cadno on Dec 9, 2019 15:06:31 GMT
Call him up!
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Post by bleddccfc on Dec 9, 2019 15:11:59 GMT
At this rate you have to take him over Tyler Roberts.
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Post by Tommy32 on Dec 9, 2019 15:13:10 GMT
He's good. I'd personally have him in the squad for the nation's League in 20-22. Wonder if he would be up for that, or does he just want to piggyback on success?
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Post by walesgolfmadrid on Dec 9, 2019 15:19:39 GMT
Slaves Bilic has been quoted as saying that he ‘doesn’t see many players of Hal’s quality in the Welsh squad’ I’d love to see Hal return and he’s bang on form but we have many,many players of his quality. Well if Hal doesn't go to the Euros, it's no-ones fault bar his own. He's not the only Welsh striker to score this weekend in the Championship, but the only one of those who wasn't available when he was needed. I don't think he was that good or impressive against the Swans, sure he got himself another goal, but the real quality for West Brom and the reason they scored five was down to Pereira and Diangana who provided him with unreal service.
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Post by walesgolfmadrid on Dec 9, 2019 15:25:11 GMT
Slaves Bilic has been quoted as saying that he ‘doesn’t see many players of Hal’s quality in the Welsh squad’ I’d love to see Hal return and he’s bang on form but we have many,many players of his quality. To be fair, I read the article and think what he was trying to say got lost in translation slightly. The full sentence was: "I don't see many players of Hal's quality (in the Wales squad). They are different, but nobody has what Hal has. That's my opinion." He was trying to say, from my reading of it, that we don't have other players in the same mould as HRK, rather than our other players are not as good. It would be ridiculous to imply that bale, ramsey, james and brooks aren't as good as HRK, even for a club manager backing his player! I don't think that's what he meant. I sort of agree with him. He's clearly a very different proposition to moore and vokes. He's more similar to tyler roberts, but his aerial ability and hold up play is a lot better. Tyler Roberts may be the worst cf I've ever seen in terms of competing for the ball in the air. I don't think I've ever seen him win a header Tyler's 20 years of age. It's absolutely daft to say he's the worst forward you've seen in any regard. HRK's hold up play is obviously better at the moment, but Tyler Robert's hold up play will obviously significantly improve with age. He's also scored a few headers in his career already, where as Hal hadn't score in the Championship at his age. But as had been said on a few threads here with younger players, you need to consider that Dan James for instance at Tyler Roberts age hadn't played any professional football, and when fit he's in for one of the two sides that look certain for automatic promotion this season.
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Post by underwood on Dec 9, 2019 15:27:03 GMT
I think all the speculation is way off the mark. Giggs had already decided against him pretty much from day one, forcing his hand in terms of retirement. A lot of the ‘old guard’ from 2016 have been replaced & I don’t see Giggs going back on that, barring a catastrophic bout of injuries, in which case, if he continues to score at this rate, Hal will be back in contention.
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Post by iot on Dec 9, 2019 16:15:08 GMT
To be fair, I read the article and think what he was trying to say got lost in translation slightly. The full sentence was: "I don't see many players of Hal's quality (in the Wales squad). They are different, but nobody has what Hal has. That's my opinion." He was trying to say, from my reading of it, that we don't have other players in the same mould as HRK, rather than our other players are not as good. It would be ridiculous to imply that bale, ramsey, james and brooks aren't as good as HRK, even for a club manager backing his player! I don't think that's what he meant. I sort of agree with him. He's clearly a very different proposition to moore and vokes. He's more similar to tyler roberts, but his aerial ability and hold up play is a lot better. Tyler Roberts may be the worst cf I've ever seen in terms of competing for the ball in the air. I don't think I've ever seen him win a header Tyler's 20 years of age. It's absolutely daft to say he's the worst forward you've seen in any regard. HRK's hold up play is obviously better at the moment, but Tyler Robert's hold up play will obviously significantly improve with age. He's also scored a few headers in his career already, where as Hal hadn't score in the Championship at his age. But as had been said on a few threads here with younger players, you need to consider that Dan James for instance at Tyler Roberts age hadn't played any professional football, and when fit he's in for one of the two sides that look certain for automatic promotion this season. I think Tyler Roberts has many real good qualities and he could be a really important player for us for years to come. Didn't mean to knock him at all. However, the conversation is on HRK - whether he should be included in the squad and, if so, in place of whom. So I think it is valid to look at their attributes and, though he may improve in that regard, I have been surprised by just how poor roberts is in competing for balls in the air - particularly long punts upfield. Fair enough, it's not really his forte or what his game is about, but there are several games where we've been under pressure and Roberts hasn't been able to relieve that pressure because he hasn't been able to make anything stick. That's why I would take HRK over roberts purely in terms of what they can offer on the field (although I'm not sure it's right to take HRK at all). Roberts has supposedly done really well as a 10 for leeds so that's the position he should be competing for.
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Post by holmesdaleultra on Dec 9, 2019 22:09:58 GMT
Tyler's 20 years of age. It's absolutely daft to say he's the worst forward you've seen in any regard. HRK's hold up play is obviously better at the moment, but Tyler Robert's hold up play will obviously significantly improve with age. He's also scored a few headers in his career already, where as Hal hadn't score in the Championship at his age. But as had been said on a few threads here with younger players, you need to consider that Dan James for instance at Tyler Roberts age hadn't played any professional football, and when fit he's in for one of the two sides that look certain for automatic promotion this season. I think Tyler Roberts has many real good qualities and he could be a really important player for us for years to come. Didn't mean to knock him at all. However, the conversation is on HRK - whether he should be included in the squad and, if so, in place of whom. So I think it is valid to look at their attributes and, though he may improve in that regard, I have been surprised by just how poor roberts is in competing for balls in the air - particularly long punts upfield. Fair enough, it's not really his forte or what his game is about, but there are several games where we've been under pressure and Roberts hasn't been able to relieve that pressure because he hasn't been able to make anything stick. That's why I would take HRK over roberts purely in terms of what they can offer on the field (although I'm not sure it's right to take HRK at all). Roberts has supposedly done really well as a 10 for leeds so that's the position he should be competing for. Tyler needs to start showing these really good qualities for Wales in the next few months otherwise I would take HRK.
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Post by texan on Dec 10, 2019 10:14:30 GMT
Giggs had already decided against him pretty much from day one, forcing his hand in terms of retirement. I don't really think that's fair. HRK wasn't picked for the China Cup squad but WAS included in the 1st Mexico squad that trained in Wrexham, only being cut from the final one that travelled to California. Hal hadn't been playing for WBA regularly in any way shape or form during 17/18, only appearing a total of 20 times, often from the subs bench, and between January and May 2018 he only made 4 (very ineffective & poor) appearances in total (all from the bench) as WBA slipped out of the EPL. I don't really blame Giggs for not picking him on that evidence, he blatantly wasn't match fit and wasn't playing. By the time the Nations League rolled around in the Autumn he'd already retired, only finding form in the 12 months since. I think to be fair both have grown over the last year. Giggs has learnt he can't be as ruthless as saying "if you're not playing you're not being picked" as he's slowly learnt that round pegs in round holes (whether playing at club level or not) is preferable to match fit square pegs playing out of position. Also of course HRK himself has really hit a purple patch. Giggs hasn't had the opportunity to work with an effective HRK yet. I'm buoyed by the fact his representatives say they've been in a dialogue with Wales for a while and really do hope they find a way to bring him back in for the March games...providing this form of his continues of course!
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Post by allezlesrouges on Dec 10, 2019 12:52:39 GMT
Giggs had already decided against him pretty much from day one, forcing his hand in terms of retirement. I don't really think that's fair. HRK wasn't picked for the China Cup squad but WAS included in the 1st Mexico squad that trained in Wrexham, only being cut from the final one that travelled to California. Hal hadn't been playing for WBA regularly in any way shape or form during 17/18, only appearing a total of 20 times, often from the subs bench, and between January and May 2018 he only made 4 (very ineffective & poor) appearances in total (all from the bench) as WBA slipped out of the EPL. I don't really blame Giggs for not picking him on that evidence, he blatantly wasn't match fit and wasn't playing. By the time the Nations League rolled around in the Autumn he'd already retired, only finding form in the 12 months since. I think to be fair both have grown over the last year. Giggs has learnt he can't be as ruthless as saying "if you're not playing you're not being picked" as he's slowly learnt that round pegs in round holes (whether playing at club level or not) is preferable to match fit square pegs playing out of position. Also of course HRK himself has really hit a purple patch. Giggs hasn't had the opportunity to work with an effective HRK yet. I'm buoyed by the fact his representatives say they've been in a dialogue with Wales for a while and really do hope they find a way to bring him back in for the March games...providing this form of his continues of course! For me it would have been as simple as declaring himself available publically before the final round of games. From the noises being made it does sound like this has been in the offing for a while, and Hal himself has been liking tweets about it for a while. But it's awful timing for him to come out with it after we qualified, it hasn't helped him at all doing it that way. I think I could get on board with him coming back if Giggs reveals Hal made himself available privately prior to our qualification though.
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