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Post by allezlesrouges on Jan 27, 2020 23:54:44 GMT
Look I am very grateful for what he did for us - he definitely was one of the catalysts for turning our qualification around. However, the kind of 1 on 1 miss against Hungary - I don't see on a 7 a side court for the over 40s. You can't afford to not, at the very least, make a full blooded effort on goal against the best teams, if you get a chance! Lets be honest his record at Wigan is shocking. How come he is not effective / dropped for them, yet he us clearly a better option than Hal for us? I mean being a catalyst for turning our campaign is far more important than scoring a 1 on 1. If you know a load of over 40s playing 7-a-side who are international class you should probably let the FAW know, I'm sure they'd be interested. I just don't understand your argument. Making a 'full blooded effort on goal' means getting the best out of our attacking players e.g Bale, Ramsey and James, and with Moore in the side we have done this. Putting Hal in because he scores more goals (only 7 in 23 in the Championship, which is hardly remarkable) would likely sacrifice our attacking structure that has worked really well, as Hal is a completely different player to Moore. If you want to talk goal records for Cymru, then Moore has the far superior ratio. Not that I think this makes the slightest bit of difference, Moore starts ahead of Hal irrespective of goal records for us or for their clubs. Also he hasn't been dropped for Wigan, he's been injured. This isn't to say I think Hal should be excluded from the squad, I'm just very surprised anyone wants Moore dropped after the difference he has made for us!
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Post by allezlesrouges on Jan 28, 2020 0:02:47 GMT
His contribution to the team isn't about his goal scoring. His goals for us have been a bonus on top of the fact that he has got us playing much better football. I don't want to seem like some unsophisticated pub-grumbler in comparison to the all-knowing tactical hipsters, but the position he plays means he should be scoring goals. You don't hear about posties who get more praise for their safe driving than their ability to deliver letters.It's not like he's brought about a tactical revolution either, he's just a big fucker who's size makes him a handful for the defenders. If he's out injured or suspended, we're back to square one tactics-wise - not really a sustainable plan. The reason that this comparison doesn't work is that you are comparing a team (Cymru) to one person in a team (the postie). It would be fairer to say Moore is the guy that does the dirty work going round collecting and organising post and giving it on to the fastest delivery drivers (Bale, Ramsey). It's not exactly a revolution, but he has brought on a tactical change which has massively helped us. His aerial ability means that we don't have to force playing out from the back anymore, if we are under pressure we can send it forward AND retain the ball doing so, with James, Bale and Ramsey against a teams exposed back 4. Stark contrast from when we were tippy tapping it around Azerbaijan with no one to aim for, and Tom Lawrence up front who is a better 'goal-scorer'. Football is a tactical game, which is why it isn't as simple as sticking as many goal scorers on the pitch as you can. I do agree we need a back up, which is why I think trying Hal in the friendlies isn't a bad idea necessarily.
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Post by chislenko on Jan 28, 2020 0:07:20 GMT
To be fair it's the best chant we have and in a world of double barrelled names, our only one.
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Post by richierich333 on Jan 28, 2020 8:19:28 GMT
Can we stop being so precious and a bit more ruthless? I am grateful for what Moore did for us but if we were in the last 5 mins of a match against a decent team in the euros and one man had a 1 on 1 with the keeper, who would you want there - Robson-Kanu or Moore? Sorry but Moore can hardly hit a barn door when shooting. Maybe an option from the bench but not a starter unless we have no option.Robson-Kanu is far more rounded too and can also score headers (ie. Scotland, Moldova) and he always gave 101%! I bet some jokers would rather have Ledley in the squad after making 2 sub apearances for Newport than Robson-Kanu. Ledley is someone who lost interest. Robson-Kanu was honest, left and wants to come back. I want the strongest team/squad possible. In friendlies people say play this youngster (Williams - Liverpool) or the likes of 2nd / 3rd players who never made it. This is a guy who settled things versus Slovakia when we needed it and stunned Belgium on the BIG STAGE. You cannot buy that mentality!Not a starter but started all the games in the run in where we bothered to turn up, scored and was one of our best players and bullied very good CB's off the park ( )
That was 4 years ago now. Yes it was great but it's stuck in 2016 time to move on.
I can't believe others are asking him to stay at home for the Euro's and then come back for Autumn as well. To what end? If we don't need him for a major tournament why the hell bring him back afterwards. Serves no purpose particularly as we have good youngsters waiting to go up.
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Post by alarch on Jan 28, 2020 11:30:43 GMT
I'm not sure why this argument Moore versus HRK has developed, as the real choice is between Vokes and HRK. Moore is a given for the Euros squad, but the secondary (and possibly tertiary) picks are up for grabs. Vokes is more of a like-for-like alternative to HRK, and is getting good game time at the moment under O'Neill, very much playing the target man role. He had a decent game against Swansea on Saturday and is more of an all-rounder than Moore, but he's not impressed at all under Giggs, so my guess is that Giggs will go for HRK over Vokes.
Moore was great for us in the Autumn fixtures, but will he be as effective in the searing heat of Baku and Rome? I can't help but feel that his attributes will be nullified by the conditions - but that would apply to a large extent to Vokes and HRK as well. What we really lack is a nippy forward of the Vardy variety, and much as I'd like to see Bradshaw given a chance in the upcoming friendlies, I doubt whether he fits the bill.
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Post by 1gwaunview on Jan 28, 2020 13:16:34 GMT
Take him to the euros Ryan. Take Moore and Vokes as well. And drop and leave at home Tyler Roberts please. Tyler has yet to convince, that's not to say he won't in the future. It's a 'no' from me for 2020 Euros though, sorry. Kanu and Kieffer yes, Vokes?
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Post by kingstonred on Jan 28, 2020 13:20:55 GMT
I think Giggs risks upsetting the senior players if Vokes is excluded from the Euro squad. All the stuff on Social Media from the Wales camps shows Bale, Ramsey, Hennessey, Allen and Vokes together most of the time.
I think for HRK in June it's either AS WELL as Vokes, or Not at all.
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Post by jbt95 on Jan 28, 2020 17:46:46 GMT
I think Giggs risks upsetting the senior players if Vokes is excluded from the Euro squad. All the stuff on Social Media from the Wales camps shows Bale, Ramsey, Hennessey, Allen and Vokes together most of the time. I think for HRK in June it's either AS WELL as Vokes, or Not at all. No way are Vokes and HRK both going. There's no loyalty in football and no loyalty in work. Vokes doesn't deserve to go.
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Post by CrackityJones on Jan 28, 2020 21:05:08 GMT
Bang average against cardiff tonight anyway.
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Post by manulike on Jan 28, 2020 21:07:55 GMT
Kieffer must be reading this thread, as he scored with a brilliant swivel taking two defenders out and a great finish. Not quite as big as Lille. But big none the less...
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Post by iot on Jan 28, 2020 21:19:03 GMT
Look I am very grateful for what he did for us - he definitely was one of the catalysts for turning our qualification around. However, the kind of 1 on 1 miss against Hungary - I don't see on a 7 a side court for the over 40s. You can't afford to not, at the very least, make a full blooded effort on goal against the best teams, if you get a chance! Lets be honest his record at Wigan is shocking. How come he is not effective / dropped for them, yet he us clearly a better option than Hal for us? Hal gets hooked off following a nondescript performance, two mins later West Brom scores. Meanwhile, Moore scores his third goal for wigan (so just 4 less than Hal), and here's the description from the bbc: "Great finish from Kieffer Moore and Wigan are level! The balls is played into him 12 yards out, and the big Wales striker shows all the neat footwork of a much smaller forward to steal a yard and fire home left-footed." You timed these comments well
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Post by welwyn on Feb 14, 2020 16:37:28 GMT
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Post by manulike on Feb 15, 2020 12:34:46 GMT
Open minded, but all things being equal, I'd say "come back in September".
For me, I'd rather have George / Rabbi / Tyler, as our wild-card.
Also, I am quietly confident, that if all else fails, Harry can play as an effective striker.<!---->
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Post by manulike on Feb 22, 2020 18:53:43 GMT
Hal. Robson. Hal Robson Kanu
TIMES TWO ;-))
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Post by underwood on Feb 22, 2020 19:04:56 GMT
I was against his reintroduction & earlier in the season it wasn’t warranted, but we must face facts & he is in the form of his life playing for a team heading to the Premier League.
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Post by jbt95 on Feb 22, 2020 22:05:46 GMT
Must be called up in March.
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Post by allezlesrouges on Feb 22, 2020 23:06:15 GMT
I'm getting conflicting feelings about this now. I was totally against him coming back when he first declared himself available, but West Brom seem to be bankers for promotion now, and he is a regular in that team playing really well. His finish today was brilliant. If I'm being objective, as it stands he is our best available backup to Moore, but should we override the loyalty Vokes has shown after Hal turned his back on playing for us??
Very torn at the moment, but I'm starting to think Hal coming in for Vokes would improve our squad.
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Post by zakbaby on Feb 22, 2020 23:29:31 GMT
My mind is still the same. Just like Vokes,it dosnt matter what he has done in the past.He turned his back on us and only wants back in because we have qualified. If we hadn't he woudnt be interested. He won't be playing in the premier if they get promoted. That's why he using us now. Looking for another contract on the back of another Euros. Been 'retired' for 2 years now. Stay that way.
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Post by hooky on Feb 23, 2020 10:35:44 GMT
This is professional sport at international level. If we are talking about a marginal difference between 2 players then loyalty can sway the decision However, Hal is much, much better than Vokes Its the same with Gunter - he is so, so limited and gives zero in defence. He would not be in my squad 'provided':
- Roberts form does not 'continue' to decline to a very low level - Neco performs decently enough in the friendlies to show he is ready, as he look a far better player than Gunter.
Experience can only count for so much when the alternative are much, much better!
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Post by iot on Feb 23, 2020 11:44:46 GMT
This is professional sport at international level. If we are talking about a marginal difference between 2 players then loyalty can sway the decision However, Hal is much, much better than Vokes Its the same with Gunter - he is so, so limited and gives zero in defence. He would not be in my squad 'provided': - Roberts form does not 'continue' to decline to a very low level - Neco performs decently enough in the friendlies to show he is ready, as he look a far better player than Gunter. Experience can only count for so much when the alternative are much, much better! Hang on, let's not forget that before his brace yesterday, HRK had only scored 1 in 13 games. He's also been up against Swansea and Cardiff in that period and fans from both teams were saying on here he wasn't great in those games. I've seen him playing once recently too where he was quite poor. So he isn't in blistering form. The issue here is that he's had so many iconic moments for us, those are the moments that stand out. Each of the goals he scored were big ones. He's also had a couple of monster performances where he hasn't scored e.g. the 1-0 Belgium home game. Because of that, the games where he was ineffective tends to fade from memory. But, if you were to look at all his appearances in the round there are many, many games where he was completely ineffective. On gunter, I would certainly take him over Taylor. To say he gives zero in defence is quite a silly thing to say. Gunter doesn't offer much other than being one of the most consistent and dependable players around, constantly putting in 6/10 performances. His limitations can be frustrating, but I'd ask you to name a game where he's really cost us? I can certainly name a couple where Taylor has!
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Post by hooky on Feb 23, 2020 12:07:51 GMT
I did not say zero in defence.
Nowadays a full back needs to be an attacking threat. I think we all agree he offers little in that respect. I understand Neco can cover left and right back?
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Post by CrackityJones on Feb 23, 2020 12:09:52 GMT
Mate you clearly said zero in defence, have a look. Anyway save it for the Gunter/Neco thread where it has been discussed in depth.
As for Hal, it could be disruptive to the squad dynamics but I wouldn’t be surprised if he gets the call in March. Would rather see what Doidge can do personally.
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Post by jbt95 on Feb 23, 2020 18:43:32 GMT
This is professional sport at international level. If we are talking about a marginal difference between 2 players then loyalty can sway the decision However, Hal is much, much better than Vokes Its the same with Gunter - he is so, so limited and gives zero in defence. He would not be in my squad 'provided': - Roberts form does not 'continue' to decline to a very low level - Neco performs decently enough in the friendlies to show he is ready, as he look a far better player than Gunter. Experience can only count for so much when the alternative are much, much better! Hang on, let's not forget that before his brace yesterday, HRK had only scored 1 in 13 games. He's also been up against Swansea and Cardiff in that period and fans from both teams were saying on here he wasn't great in those games. I've seen him playing once recently too where he was quite poor. So he isn't in blistering form. You are talking out of your ass. Swansea last played WBA best part of 3 months ago and HRK scored.
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Post by iot on Feb 23, 2020 19:57:22 GMT
Hang on, let's not forget that before his brace yesterday, HRK had only scored 1 in 13 games. He's also been up against Swansea and Cardiff in that period and fans from both teams were saying on here he wasn't great in those games. I've seen him playing once recently too where he was quite poor. So he isn't in blistering form. You are talking out of your ass. Swansea last played WBA best part of 3 months ago and HRK scored. Fair enough, I may have got that bit wrong. But his record is exactly as I described, check it up for yourself. And there were definitely people saying on here after one of the games that he had been poor, so the point stands.
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Post by jbt95 on Feb 23, 2020 20:25:49 GMT
You are talking out of your ass. Swansea last played WBA best part of 3 months ago and HRK scored. Fair enough, I may have got that bit wrong. But his record is exactly as I described, check it up for yourself. And there were definitely people saying on here after one of the games that he had been poor, so the point stands. You going on as if he had score 30 goals every season since 2010. He scored 5 goals for Wales. Only 2 were before Euro2016. This is his best season ever for goalscoring, and we have 2 months of it left.
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Post by hooky on Feb 23, 2020 20:40:14 GMT
Mate you clearly said zero in defence, have a look. Anyway save it for the Gunter/Neco thread where it has been discussed in depth. As for Hal, it could be disruptive to the squad dynamics but I wouldn’t be surprised if he gets the call in March. Would rather see what Doidge can do personally. Apologies - that was a typo I meant in attack. Why does it have to be disruptive to the team dynamic? If someone is available and elevates the team to a higher level then players playing at an elite level welcome that surely. Gunter takes away an attacking dimension and Vokes is hardly likely to break the dynamic against a top team is he?
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Post by CrackityJones on Feb 24, 2020 8:10:13 GMT
I was alluding to Hal conveniently coming out of retirement now we have qualified. If selected that could be disruptive to the squad. Then again it may not have a negative impact but that one is for Giggs to decide.
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Post by iot on Feb 24, 2020 11:53:27 GMT
Fair enough, I may have got that bit wrong. But his record is exactly as I described, check it up for yourself. And there were definitely people saying on here after one of the games that he had been poor, so the point stands. You going on as if he had score 30 goals every season since 2010. He scored 5 goals for Wales. Only 2 were before Euro2016. This is his best season ever for goalscoring, and we have 2 months of it left. "You going on as if he had score 30 goals every season since 2010." I'm not sure how you arrived at that conclusion, but anyway... My only point is, he started the season on fire scoring 6 in 14 games. If he had continued scoring at that rate and if he was also putting in good all-round performances, it would be difficult to leave him out. But, in the 14 games since then he's only managed 3 goals and I know anecdotally there have been games where he's been poor. There was a great hoo-ha about his form earlier in the season which came back up after his brace the other day, I was only pointing out that in the middle of all that he'd only managed 1 goal in 13. I suspect most people wouldn't have known that and would have just assumed he'd been banging them in throughout, so it's important not to blow his credentials for a squad place out of proportion. Because of the way he left us whilst others (who were also not getting any gametime) stuck at it, he needs to do more than most to get a call-up.
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Post by squatter1 on Feb 24, 2020 13:30:29 GMT
Bumped into some West Brom fans in Bristol on Sat after the match. Asked them about Hal, and they were gushing. Said he's been immense for them this season. Main thing they were talking about was the work he does for the team, holding the ball up, running the channels, chasing everything.
Which, let's face it, is exactly why we've turned to Keiffer Moore - to provide an outlet ball for our AM's to play off.
If you take away the fact HRK retired, I don't think there would be any doubt he would be in the team ahead of Moore. Moore has done really well, but he's languishing at the bottom of the Championship, HRK is about to help get a team promoted out of it.
If he's got any sense, what Giggs will do is talk to Bale, Ramsey, Gunter etc, and ask them whether they think Hal should be called up. If the senior players are all for it, then he should come. If they say it would be bad for morale, then it shouldn't happen.
Keiffer's done great for us, but he's not a sustainable solution. You simply can't expect sustained success with players of his limitations. HRK is not a great player either, but he's got more assets than Keiffer Moore, and has spent his career playing at a higher level as a result.
The fact we're even talking about which one from Moore/HRK would be preferable is sadly an indictment of our options upfront, but there you go. For what it's worth, I would rather we switch back to trying Bale up front, with James, Ramsey, Brooks behind him, and go down in a free-flowing ball of flames, rather than risk looking stoneage, playing embarrassing hoofball to Moore and still not qualifying from the group.
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Post by iot on Feb 24, 2020 13:48:09 GMT
Bumped into some West Brom fans in Bristol on Sat after the match. Asked them about Hal, and they were gushing. Said he's been immense for them this season. Main thing they were talking about was the work he does for the team, holding the ball up, running the channels, chasing everything. Which, let's face it, is exactly why we've turned to Keiffer Moore - to provide an outlet ball for our AM's to play off. If you take away the fact HRK retired, I don't think there would be any doubt he would be in the team ahead of Moore. Moore has done really well, but he's languishing at the bottom of the Championship, HRK is about to help get a team promoted out of it. If he's got any sense, what Giggs will do is talk to Bale, Ramsey, Gunter etc, and ask them whether they think Hal should be called up. If the senior players are all for it, then he should come. If they say it would be bad for morale, then it shouldn't happen. Keiffer's done great for us, but he's not a sustainable solution. You simply can't expect sustained success with players of his limitations. HRK is not a great player either, but he's got more assets than Keiffer Moore, and has spent his career playing at a higher level as a result. The fact we're even talking about which one from Moore/HRK would be preferable is sadly an indictment of our options upfront, but there you go. For what it's worth, I would rather we switch back to trying Bale up front, with James, Ramsey, Brooks behind him, and go down in a free-flowing ball of flames, rather than risk looking stoneage, playing embarrassing hoofball to Moore and still not qualifying from the group. Completely disagree with the point highlighted in black. Take the brazilian world cup winning teams for example. They had lots of superstars but also some limited, solid players who just did what needed to be done to let the others shine - the likes of Kleberson and gilberto silva in the 2002 world cup.
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