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Post by jimexotic on Nov 28, 2022 13:50:45 GMT
Bielsa, imagine it!  |
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Post by melynwy on Nov 28, 2022 13:55:33 GMT
It's an interesting situation. I'll admit I have one foot in the "happy to be there" camp regarding the World Cup, because that was the long term goal and we achieved it. I don't mean that in a "that's it" way nor in a way that lacks ambition, I don't think.
The next (long term) goal should be qualifying more often and more consistently. It does feel like this WC was the end of one era, and hopefully the start of another. Yes we fizzled out, but I'm fairly comfortable (though obviously disappointed) with it - it feel as though it was inevitable/needed to happen.
Page doesn't strike me as someone who has is a great observer of the game, nor does he seem to offer a lot of insight. He has steered us through a difficult, important and largely successful period, and for that he deserves respect. I hope he's not hounded out, but equally I feel someone else needs to take the next steps.
We are facing the next few years without maverick world-class talents, so we need to become a rounded, solid team. We have the core to do that, and we have gifted players to lead us.
For years I've preferred us with 3 at the back and wing-backs, but I'm starting to think reverting to 4-2-3-1 with two holding midfielders will suit us better going forward. It doesn't quite play to Ben Davies' strengths, who is arguably our star player now, but might work better for us.
For teams like us, the WC (and Euros) itself is always a flash-in-the-pan short-term opportunity for a fairytale. It can do wonders of course (see the momentum after '16), but it's the qualifiers that are the real big games for us. Beating Ukraine in the playoff was bigger for us than anything we could have realistically done in the tournament itself, and probably meant as much to the fans as winning the WC would for the bigger nations. There is nothing wrong with accepting the level we're at, as long as we look to build on it. We are 19th in the world, and Iran are 20th, so the result was not a major shock in reality.
What we have lost is the opportunity to build momentum with all the 'Yma o Hyd' hype, and the kiuds watching at school. It's a shame it didn't turn out to be more inspirational, but again I think that's a fairly short-sighted view, because our aim should be to go again, qualify again.
The last few years have been sensational, we've climbed the rankings and stayed there, and qualified for 3 out of 4 tournaments. It does feel like a natural end of the line for a lot of the remaining 2016 players, especially Bale. That in turn can lead to us becoming a new, more balanced team, but I think we need new leadership for it.
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Post by bale-droed on Nov 28, 2022 14:16:09 GMT
The last sentence will easily be explained to them by showing them a video of Hennessey’s performances in a welsh shirt lately. How lately is lately ? Ukraine game ? If so yes he’s the reason we won but as Neville Southall said to him on a sgorio interview “these are saves Wayne would expect to make none were world class. Wayne faces one shot on target v USA and conceded. I suppose Rodon headed s ball directly at him though which he stopped so I imagine that means he played well. |
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Post by jimexotic on Nov 28, 2022 14:45:22 GMT
I've said it in the Ampadu thread but we need to become more workmanlike, keep our shape, do all the nasty stuff better, that will make us harder to beat and we still have enough attacking talent and pace in the team to hurt opposing sides, we just need to get smarter. If we've learned anything this World Cup it's that if you are tight and organised and don't let teams come at you it's far more likely to work for you than hoping for a bit of magic.
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Post by allezlesrouges on Nov 28, 2022 17:49:56 GMT
melynwy We could play 4 at the back and still utilise Davies's strengths. If we tell Davies to sit in at the LB, and Neco to push on as the right-sided fullback, then we can still build up with the 3, and Davies would perform largely the same role. Might also get more out of Neco as well if he plays on the right
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Post by saturn9 on Nov 28, 2022 18:26:23 GMT
Who has the bigger challenge in a rebuild, ourselves or the Belgians?
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Post by talyfan on Nov 28, 2022 18:57:23 GMT
Who has the bigger challenge in a rebuild, ourselves or the Belgians? Us without a doubt. I mean we're debating which League One to Conference players to call up after the world cup. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2022 19:02:10 GMT
we will always have the tougher task unfortunately because lots of European countries have a much higher standard national league meaning they have more players of a higher standard coming through and playing against better players at a younger age, obvious of course but i guess saying that we do incredibly well all things factored in.
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Post by melynwy on Nov 28, 2022 19:24:48 GMT
We’re debating calling up a National League player because there is genuine belief that his level is way above that. We’re not debating Mullin because there are no options in a higher league - we’re debating him because he seems to be a damn good striker. It’s important to see these things for what they really are (and for the level we really are at), and not spout some sensationalist knee-jerk reaction that we ‘have’ to reach into the National League.
It’s also nonsensical to claim that we have a bigger challenge than Belgium simply because we have to reach further down the leagues. You can’t use the same criteria to compare our situation and Belgium’s. Our immediate goals are very different.
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Post by saturn9 on Nov 28, 2022 19:45:48 GMT
Who has the bigger challenge in a rebuild, ourselves or the Belgians? Us without a doubt. I mean we're debating which League One to Conference players to call up after the world cup. Without a doubt, they have a population of close to 12m which helps. But the drop off in talent from this generation of Belgian footballers to the next 'could' mean a few bleakish seasons ahead. From the outside looking in I get the odd impression KDB isn't exactly flavour of the month in the current Belgian dressing room. |
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Post by rushy on Nov 28, 2022 19:48:32 GMT
It's an interesting situation. I'll admit I have one foot in the "happy to be there" camp regarding the World Cup, because that was the long term goal and we achieved it. I don't mean that in a "that's it" way nor in a way that lacks ambition, I don't think. The next (long term) goal should be qualifying more often and more consistently. It does feel like this WC was the end of one era, and hopefully the start of another. Yes we fizzled out, but I'm fairly comfortable (though obviously disappointed) with it - it feel as though it was inevitable/needed to happen. Page doesn't strike me as someone who has is a great observer of the game, nor does he seem to offer a lot of insight. He has steered us through a difficult, important and largely successful period, and for that he deserves respect. I hope he's not hounded out, but equally I feel someone else needs to take the next steps. We are facing the next few years without maverick world-class talents, so we need to become a rounded, solid team. We have the core to do that, and we have gifted players to lead us. For years I've preferred us with 3 at the back and wing-backs, but I'm starting to think reverting to 4-2-3-1 with two holding midfielders will suit us better going forward. It doesn't quite play to Ben Davies' strengths, who is arguably our star player now, but might work better for us. For teams like us, the WC (and Euros) itself is always a flash-in-the-pan short-term opportunity for a fairytale. It can do wonders of course (see the momentum after '16), but it's the qualifiers that are the real big games for us. Beating Ukraine in the playoff was bigger for us than anything we could have realistically done in the tournament itself, and probably meant as much to the fans as winning the WC would for the bigger nations. There is nothing wrong with accepting the level we're at, as long as we look to build on it. We are 19th in the world, and Iran are 20th, so the result was not a major shock in reality. What we have lost is the opportunity to build momentum with all the 'Yma o Hyd' hype, and the kiuds watching at school. It's a shame it didn't turn out to be more inspirational, but again I think that's a fairly short-sighted view, because our aim should be to go again, qualify again. The last few years have been sensational, we've climbed the rankings and stayed there, and qualified for 3 out of 4 tournaments. It does feel like a natural end of the line for a lot of the remaining 2016 players, especially Bale. That in turn can lead to us becoming a new, more balanced team, but I think we need new leadership for it. Perfectly summed up, let's see what tomorrow brings and what Page has to offer. |
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Post by talyfan on Nov 28, 2022 20:21:59 GMT
We’re debating calling up a National League player because there is genuine belief that his level is way above that. We’re not debating Mullin because there are no options in a higher league - we’re debating him because he seems to be a damn good striker. It’s important to see these things for what they really are (and for the level we really are at), and not spout some sensationalist knee-jerk reaction that we ‘have’ to reach into the National League. It’s also nonsensical to claim that we have a bigger challenge than Belgium simply because we have to reach further down the leagues. You can’t use the same criteria to compare our situation and Belgium’s. Our immediate goals are very different. Someone asked who has the bigger rebuild us or Belgium? Asked to compare the two and I've just given a plain answer there really isn't that much to it |
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Post by rushy on Nov 28, 2022 20:35:47 GMT
Who has the bigger challenge in a rebuild, ourselves or the Belgians? Uruguay |
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Post by jimexotic on Nov 28, 2022 20:38:08 GMT
Who has the bigger challenge in a rebuild, ourselves or the Belgians? Belgium without a doubt. Our talent pool will stay relatively the same but they're losing a whole generation that they've had to hang onto and rely on for too long because there's not enough coming through for them. Add to that the weight of expectation and standards set compared to us and it's a huge task to keep Belgium up there as one of the best. Belgium have to rebuild while remaining contenders, we can rebuild knowing that as long as don't totally balls up Euro 2024 qualifying we might be alright but even if we aren't alright the fall for us is nothing compared to what potentially lies in store for them. This was their golden generation packed full of total footballers, genuinely World Class players all over the pitch. |
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Post by saturn9 on Nov 28, 2022 21:34:00 GMT
Who has the bigger challenge in a rebuild, ourselves or the Belgians? Uruguay They'll be fine, they always unearth some outstanding young talents. |
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Post by conwy10 on Nov 28, 2022 21:44:13 GMT
I think our rebuild will be somewhere between Iceland and Belgium.
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Post by dai on Nov 28, 2022 21:55:41 GMT
Are we honestly comparing ourselves to Belgium. They always have players in top flights to choose from. We're debating whether to call up a non-league player ffs!
Belgium will be fine, as will most top footballing countries like them.
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Post by jimexotic on Nov 28, 2022 21:59:39 GMT
Are we honestly comparing ourselves to Belgium. They always have players in top flights to choose from. We're debating whether to call up a non-league player ffs! Belgium will be fine, as will most top footballing countries like them. It's more the expectancy on Belgium that's the issue for them. The fact that we look at players in the third, fourth and fifth tiers of English football tells you all you need to know about what's really expected of us but for them they're going to have to replace a large number of players that were, until recently and come still currently, some of the best in the World in their positions. We're rebuilding a bungalow, they're rebuilding a castle. |
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Post by hooky on Nov 28, 2022 22:06:43 GMT
At least we are realistic. We know we are going to struggle to qualify moving forward. The Euros may be possible but the WC will be very difficult to qualify for again without the special one!
We are going to be generally at the level of the Republic of Ireland and hopefully Scotland in the near term and we see how tough its been for them.
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Post by Y Fenni on Nov 28, 2022 22:21:36 GMT
At least we are realistic. We know we are going to struggle to qualify moving forward. The Euros may be possible but the WC will be very difficult to qualify for again without the special one! We are going to be generally at the level of the Republic of Ireland and hopefully Scotland in the near term and we see how tough its been for them. Something that gives me a bit more optimism is that during our golden era we have embraced a more possession-based approach to football than some other small nations. Even without superstar quality, we have sought out players that are comfortable on the ball and have instilled this in our youth teams. As I think others on here have said before, even if we have a lower ceiling we will have a higher floor. I'm confident that we won't go back to the situation we had for most of my lifetime where we have one game-changer (Giggs, Bellamy) with very limited players around them. |
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Post by mortillsy on Nov 29, 2022 0:09:42 GMT
15 years on, looks like we're going to have to do it all again. Not really. Ampadu, Rodon, Johnson, James, Williams and Mepham will be the backbone of the team for a good few years yet and there’s also plenty of life still in Connor, Sorba and Ward . Add those to prospects like Luke Harris, Colwill and Cooper and we’ve got plenty to work with to start the new era. Yeah. I think that’s a decent core. I don’t think Tyler Roberts, Matondo, Regan Poole’s have quite come through like some of us expected - but they could all add value. I don’t see any Bale’s or Ramsey’s, but some of the lads from the younger age groups, who mostly haven’t played senior football, look to have decent potential. 15 years ago we would have been buzzing at the prospect of a Jordan James being so young and getting games in the Championship, but we are mostly cautiously optimistic. We’ve come a long way! |
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Post by welshrover on Nov 29, 2022 0:13:56 GMT
I think Belgium will produce better cyclists than us.
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Post by saturn9 on Nov 29, 2022 1:57:30 GMT
Does Aaron Collins get a look in, next year in some friendlies? Been linked heavily with a move away next season or possibly January to the Chs'p.
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Post by bale-droed on Nov 29, 2022 3:13:41 GMT
Who has the bigger challenge in a rebuild, ourselves or the Belgians? Us but Belgium are about to return to being a Switzerlandish team. Our problem as fans is most of us are looking to the under 21s for the future and we are: A. Forgetting that Neco, Ampadu, Norrington-Davies, Johnson And Colwill are all under 23 B. We are hyping some youngsters a lot like Harris, Popov and we forget how promising Cooper is. Cooper could be the main man next campaign C. I have not seen anyone mention David Brooks. My god how we miss and need him. For qualifying he should be back to full fitness and him in the starting 11 is a fantastic thing. Our second best finisher D. We have a lot of players that won’t be past 31 in 2026 I think Davies will be 33 but he’s fantastic so no worries We more than have enough to qualify for Euro 2024 even without Ramsey. Our squad could actually be fantastic by 2024. The good times are not over yet. Tomorrow will fucking suck but we’re still living the dream |
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Post by melynwy on Nov 29, 2022 6:38:37 GMT
Are we honestly comparing ourselves to Belgium. They always have players in top flights to choose from. We're debating whether to call up a non-league player ffs! Belgium will be fine, as will most top footballing countries like them. We’re discussing relatively who has the biggest challenge if rebuilding going forward, not comparing absolute quality. As I said previously, we’re not considering calling up a non-league player out of desperation. We have other options in higher leagues, but Mullin is obviously playing at a level well below his quality. I think it’s pretty cool for a team ranked top 20 in the world to be willing to look at a non-league player if we think he can do a job for us. And to be fair, most comments are along the lines of waiting to see where he is in a year or two. Absolutely no shame in looking pragmatically at players in lower leagues if we think they’ll be effective and not be obsessed about the league they’re in. I still believe Jonny Williams is easily one of our better technical players- he still has qualities above some of our Premiership players. |
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Post by talyfan on Nov 29, 2022 9:42:06 GMT
Think it boils down to
1) As I've said get principles of play established and call up right players to suit the system.
2) Cast the net far and wide post-WC. Get as many lads involved (within reason) and increase the pool of players available to us. Call up the likes of Paul Mullin, Aaron Collins, Jack Vale, Terry Taylor, Tom Lowery, Andrew Hughes etc. Not all at once but strategically. The aim long-term should be providing a platform for players to showcase their abilities and put them on the shop window create a bit of artificial buzz around them.
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Post by quetzal on Nov 29, 2022 10:19:56 GMT
I knew this thread would happen one day. I was hoping it was going to be a few years down the line and not two games into the World Cup. Timing is everything. I had an amazing week in Qatar. Just got back to Guatemala. Irán and USA i genuinely think a draw. Lets see
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Post by conwy10 on Nov 29, 2022 14:05:01 GMT
Who has the bigger challenge in a rebuild, ourselves or the Belgians? Us but Belgium are about to return to being a Switzerlandish team. Our problem as fans is most of us are looking to the under 21s for the future and we are: A. Forgetting that Neco, Ampadu, Norrington-Davies, Johnson And Colwill are all under 23 B. We are hyping some youngsters a lot like Harris, Popov and we forget how promising Cooper is. Cooper could be the main man next campaign C. I have not seen anyone mention David Brooks. My god how we miss and need him. For qualifying he should be back to full fitness and him in the starting 11 is a fantastic thing. Our second best finisher D. We have a lot of players that won’t be past 31 in 2026 I think Davies will be 33 but he’s fantastic so no worries We more than have enough to qualify for Euro 2024 even without Ramsey. Our squad could actually be fantastic by 2024. The good times are not over yet. Tomorrow will fucking suck but we’re still living the dream Have we ever been better than Switzerland? They are an awful team to draw in a tournament, they grind out wins against smaller teams and surprise the top teams quite regularly. Belgium at their level possibly, but historically we are similar to Bulgaria/Scotland. Bale scores all the vital goals, is it unrealistic to think we could get 4th in qualifying without him? |
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Post by jimexotic on Nov 29, 2022 14:49:17 GMT
Can we at least remain optimistic until whatever we fear happens? It's far more enjoyable that way.
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Post by rushy on Nov 29, 2022 17:16:37 GMT
We have always had at least one decent striker through the years going all the way back to big John Charles , what we have coming through now that have the potential to reach top level is anyone's guess atm, our hopes are probably pinned on Brennan Johnson to keep improving, which is more than a possibility.
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