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Post by mrpicton79 on Jun 23, 2024 2:54:44 GMT
God you can't really be this dense. The physical abilities of men vs women leads to different tactics being applicable and viable in each version of the sport. There's a reason there isn't a bunch of crossover in the managers department. Isn’t that the exact point iwlos is making? There is a big crossover, but it’s one-way: men managing women. If those men can adapt, why can’t the women?It’s either me being ‘dense’ and misunderstanding, or you being ‘dense’ and not reading the posts properly (or not fully comprehending what was written) It's not just a matter of adapting. There's a vast difference in the level and the intensity the two sports are played at and that has to be considered too. Why can't a Cymru Premier manager just "adapt" and coach at a much higher level? I'm sure an experienced football league manager would find it much easier the other way round if they fancied a stint managing Barry Town United. There are other concerns too. Look at the abuse managers get in the men's game, even Page got it after achieving a lot with Wales. Imagine a female coach being targeted with all that. That element doesn't even exist in the women's game as far as I can see. If even hooky's questioning Ludlow's contribution when she was managing Wales women, then you have think people are suggesting it for reasons other than footballing ones. |
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Post by melynwy on Jun 23, 2024 7:51:07 GMT
Isn’t that the exact point iwlos is making? There is a big crossover, but it’s one-way: men managing women. If those men can adapt, why can’t the women?It’s either me being ‘dense’ and misunderstanding, or you being ‘dense’ and not reading the posts properly (or not fully comprehending what was written) It's not just a matter of adapting. There's a vast difference in the level and the intensity the two sports are played at and that has to be considered too. Why can't a Cymru Premier manager just "adapt" and coach at a much higher level? I'm sure an experienced football league manager would find it much easier the other way round if they fancied a stint managing Barry Town United. There are other concerns too. Look at the abuse managers get in the men's game, even Page got it after achieving a lot with Wales. Imagine a female coach being targeted with all that. That element doesn't even exist in the women's game as far as I can see. If even hooky's questioning Ludlow's contribution when she was managing Wales women, then you have think people are suggesting it for reasons other than footballing ones. You’re conflating (and confusing) ability and adaptability. A Cymru Premier coach can’t coach at a higher level because they don’t have the ability. We’re talking here about being able to adapt between the slightly different requirements of the two games. As mention, men are often able to this (or, more accurately perhaps, they are given the chance to do this) Are you suggesting that women, fundamentally, can’t possess the technical, personal and psychological skills and ability to coach football at a high level? That they are somehow not programmed to understand football completely? And regarding your point about abuse that managers get… why is that even a concern? If you are still of the mindset that women need to protected and sheltered from the unpleasant things in life, then it’s quite concerning and I don’t think this discussion is going to get much further. |
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Post by surge on Jun 23, 2024 8:08:12 GMT
Adaptation suggests need to develop and/or change. Matty Jones as Welsh youth manager has spent time with women's team as part of his/their development and I see no reason this cannot be reversed with the potential of a permanent switch with the right candidate
We haven't seen Cymru Premier managers jump into EFL team but we have seen club physio's (Adkins), analysts (Will Still), translators (Jose Mourinho) and even bankers (Sarri) make the transition, but this is rare and these roles mostly came alongside minor coaching roles with increasing responsibility before the full step up. More common is ex-players without managerial experience but this has had very mixed results. It seems that jumping in with too much difference in role increases risks of failure...who knew?
Think the idea that I) potential managerial abuse should stop the idea is pretty foul and ii) another thread on this site is being turned into this discussion point is less than ideal.
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Post by allezlesrouges on Jun 23, 2024 8:21:38 GMT
It's not just a matter of adapting. There's a vast difference in the level and the intensity the two sports are played at and that has to be considered too. Why can't a Cymru Premier manager just "adapt" and coach at a much higher level? I'm sure an experienced football league manager would find it much easier the other way round if they fancied a stint managing Barry Town United. There are other concerns too. Look at the abuse managers get in the men's game, even Page got it after achieving a lot with Wales. Imagine a female coach being targeted with all that. That element doesn't even exist in the women's game as far as I can see. If even hooky's questioning Ludlow's contribution when she was managing Wales women, then you have think people are suggesting it for reasons other than footballing ones. You’re conflating (and confusing) ability and adaptability. A Cymru Premier coach can’t coach at a higher level because they don’t have the ability. We’re talking here about being able to adapt between the slightly different requirements of the two games. As mention, men are often able to this (or, more accurately perhaps, they are given the chance to do this) Are you suggesting that women, fundamentally, can’t possess the technical, personal and psychological skills and ability to coach football at a high level? That they are somehow not programmed to understand football completely? And regarding your point about abuse that managers get… why is that even a concern? If you are still of the mindset that women need to protected and sheltered from the unpleasant things in life, then it’s quite concerning and I don’t think this discussion is going to get much further. I wouldn't bother with this guy. He's off the deep end. See the women's team thread |
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Post by surge on Jun 23, 2024 8:22:05 GMT
Regarding Osian Roberts, the poll leader, my one concern is that Viera (and our favourite for the Wales job) had Crystal Palace play quite a safe style of football and didn't get the best out of their striker.
Oliver Glasner has come in and got much, much more out of the team with not too many changes in personal - although extra time on the grass and in training has improved key, young players.
Would a more safe style of football work at intentional level? Southgate, Deschamps, the whole of Poland and Janne Anderson (another name mentioned) would suggest it does work and is the way to go, but this Euros might suggest a change of approach is happening.
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Post by winsumluzsum on Jun 23, 2024 8:45:02 GMT
Regarding Osian Roberts, the poll leader, my one concern is that Viera (and our favourite for the Wales job) had Crystal Palace play quite a safe style of football and didn't get the best out of their striker. Oliver Glasner has come in and got much, much more out of the team with not too many changes in personal - although extra time on the grass and in training has improved key, young players. Would a more safe style of football work at intentional level? Southgate, Deschamps, the whole of Poland and Janne Anderson (another name mentioned) would suggest it does work and is the way to go, but this Euros might suggest a change of approach is happening. When Viera and Roberts first took over at Palace they did an excellent job of transitioning to a more possession-led playing style. Second season was more of a struggle. A conservative approach may have been a factor, buy I distinctly remember they had a dreadful run of fixtures where they drew or lost narrowly. When Hodgson took over he immediately had an easier run of games. The vagaries of the fixture list certainly played a part in the ending of their tine in charge. Also worth noting that Eze, Mateta and Olise have come on in leaps and bounds. Glasner may have played some part in that, but this may have happened regardless, through experience. |
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Post by winsumluzsum on Jun 23, 2024 9:34:53 GMT
Reflecting on our previous managerial appointments I have to admit that I had big reservations about all four.
Gary Speed had a short and difficult spell in charge of Sheffield United. He tried to get them to play a possession-led game but they were close to the relegation zone when he got the Cymru job. I was skeptical about his credentials and early results seemed to vindicated that perspective. But by the tragic end of his tenure we were clearly on an upwards trajectory.
I was also dubious about Coleman given his unimpressive track record at club level. His Cymru career followed a similar path of initial failure and subsequent success to Speed's.
I was very much opposed to Giggs' appointment, for much the same reason that I was opposed to Henry. But once again he proved to be a qualified success.
I had very little confidence in Page when he took over and yet, once again, he proved this doubting Thomas wrong.
Bearing all of this consistent record of qualified success in mind I have to acknowledge that I could well get the next appointment wrong too. The one thing that is essential is that if we do interview the likes of Henry that the interview panel are wary of being star struck. Henry could be a good manager but if so it would have very little to do with his playing career.
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Post by kracken88 on Jun 23, 2024 10:00:29 GMT
You realise you are not actually going to get to pick the next manager in the real world don't you winsum?
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Post by surge on Jun 23, 2024 10:07:05 GMT
Given our budget, I expect that we will have some reservations about whoever is appointed.
The best Welsh managers of recent times have answered the question of where do we need to go next and have left amicably when they can no longer answer that question.
Toshack answered but stayed too long; Speed answered but tragic circumstances meant he departed too early; Coleman answered and left at the right time; and it's probably too early to judge most recent managers.
Guess the initial conundrum therefore is trying to work out what the question they need to answer is.
My suggestion would be as follows:
We need to win games to qualify but have a main striker in autumn of his career and no target men strikers coming up the ranks after him, we don't have any immediate depth at GK and no one ready to be a premier league superstar that you can build a team around.
I think we're looking for someone like Arteta who can succeed with smaller forwards and if they don't have that experience then I don't think they're right for us.
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Post by surge on Jun 23, 2024 10:12:51 GMT
As a final point, even though our budget isn't great and challenges are obvious, i do think we give managers good experience and can strap a rocket to their back in terms of career development.
See the way that Dutch Al went from out the door at Man United to main assistant at Arsenal, one of the favourites to win premier league, with us bridging that gap for him.
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Post by winsumluzsum on Jun 23, 2024 10:30:42 GMT
You realise you are not actually going to get to pick the next manager in the real world don't you winsum? What a strange post. |
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Post by winsumluzsum on Jun 23, 2024 12:16:19 GMT
Given our budget, I expect that we will have some reservations about whoever is appointed. The best Welsh managers of recent times have answered the question of where do we need to go next and have left amicably when they can no longer answer that question. Toshack answered but stayed too long; Speed answered but tragic circumstances meant he departed too early; Coleman answered and left at the right time; and it's probably too early to judge most recent managers. Guess the initial conundrum therefore is trying to work out what the question they need to answer is. My suggestion would be as follows: We need to win games to qualify but have a main striker in autumn of his career and no target men strikers coming up the ranks after him, we don't have any immediate depth at GK and no one ready to be a premier league superstar that you can build a team around. I think we're looking for someone like Arteta who can succeed with smaller forwards and if they don't have that experience then I don't think they're right for us. Good points. I'd be interested to know what other posters think are the main issues are for the new manager and what sort of questions people would like to see raised at interview. One of the main issues for me is whether or not we stay with 3 at the back. We struggled in the last campaign and in the recent friendlies with 4 at the back. Do we risk a loss of security at the back by playing a flat back 4 to gain an extra attacker? If so what happens to Ben Davies? Alternatively if we persevere with wing backs do we tweak things, for instance going to a 3-4-1-2 formation, or giving our centre backs (especially Davies) more license to get forwards? |
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Post by winsumluzsum on Jun 23, 2024 14:48:52 GMT
Abbandonato on Twitter suggesting there may be some enthusiasm for re-employing Giggs.
This would be a reckless move. They overlooked his personal conduct the first time. To overlook his personal conduct at the second time of asking is making the FAW hostage to fortune. I'd be very surprised if they took the risk.
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Post by iantov on Jun 23, 2024 14:55:57 GMT
Osian would be more that just a manager. I'd get him in and try to get a respected ex-player in as assistant. Bellamy would also be a fine choice but I feel it's Osian's time. He's proven himself now. I think you are right. My gut feeling is we’ll go around the mountains looking for a manager and then it will come down to an interview in a crumby hotel in Birmingham so FAW councillors from North and South can save money on petrol and Osian will get the vote. Oh! God....that sounds just about right. They'll probably deduct the cost of the petrol from Osian's first pay packet also. |
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Post by iot on Jun 23, 2024 15:58:25 GMT
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Post by cadno on Jun 23, 2024 17:02:14 GMT
Of course women can manage men’s teams and one day I’m sure it will be the norm. But the transition won’t be an easy one, because the men’s game is a different world at the moment and the first few women managers are likely to struggle to adjust, due to misogyny. Managers already aren’t given a lot of time, they’re given a bit more time if they’re an ex star like Pirlo or Giggs. So the first run of bad form and there’d be so much pressure just because they’re a female, it will take a success story to break that barrier.
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Post by surge on Jun 23, 2024 17:05:35 GMT
Abbandonato on Twitter suggesting there may be some enthusiasm for re-employing Giggs. This would be a reckless move. They overlooked his personal conduct the first time. To overlook his personal conduct at the second time of asking is making the FAW hostage to fortune. I'd be very surprised if they took the risk. Trying to remember what Giggs did as a manager and the context he did it in. - Think he tried to move to 4-2-3-1 shape with Ramsey appearing at times at base of midfield and at times as a 10. Think this was to control the ball more than we did under Coleman - Bale played as CF (which I don't think worked). - Made sure we had CB's comfortable on the ball, even if that meant using James Lawrence who was slower than needed - Connor Roberts came in instead of Gunter I think he struggled to answer the question of how to play without focal point up top, one of my main questions going forward. Off the pitch, think he burned the bridge that was being built. Much better than a Sam Allardyce but I would have reservations. |
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Post by hooky on Jun 23, 2024 17:30:21 GMT
Abbandonato on Twitter suggesting there may be some enthusiasm for re-employing Giggs. This would be a reckless move. They overlooked his personal conduct the first time. To overlook his personal conduct at the second time of asking is making the FAW hostage to fortune. I'd be very surprised if they took the risk. Trying to remember what Giggs did as a manager and the context he did it in. - Think he tried to move to 4-2-3-1 shape with Ramsey appearing at times at base of midfield and at times as a 10. Think this was to control the ball more than we did under Coleman - Bale played as CF (which I don't think worked). - Made sure we had CB's comfortable on the ball, even if that meant using James Lawrence who was slower than needed - Connor Roberts came in instead of Gunter I think he struggled to answer the question of how to play without focal point up top, one of my main questions going forward. Off the pitch, think he burned the bridge that was being built. Much better than a Sam Allardyce but I would have reservations. 'I think he struggled to answer the question of how to play without focal point up top, one of my main questions going forward'. I don't agree - he took the surprise decision to introduce Moore which transformed our Euro qualification campaign. It showed he was pretty tactically aware and happy to make big decisions, even if it went against how he himself used to play the game He also brought through loads of youngsters and effectively retired a lot of the older guard, most notably Gunter and even Ashley Williams. That was a very brave and confident decision as he knew he was not liked and a sequence of bad results would put him at risk. By contrast we had Page against Poland who was not able to use his bench as he was not confident / good enough to understand what they could bring, as he had not utilised them much previously. The big decisions decide big games in the balance. The tragedy of Giggs is that he was a confident manager in his decision making but his personal failings let Welsh football down and left his own managerial career in tatters |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Jun 23, 2024 17:45:01 GMT
Interesting to see Osian so far ahead. Not to toot our horn too much as a community, but we are the people who probably spend the most time thinking and talking about Welsh football, so I'd say the hardcore fanbase have spoken. Osian is the fans choice
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Post by erasedcitizen on Jun 23, 2024 17:55:26 GMT
Interesting to see Osian so far ahead. Not to toot our horn too much as a community, but we are the people who probably spend the most time thinking and talking about Welsh football, so I'd say the hardcore fanbase have spoken. Osian is the fans choice I'll be very surprised if it isn't Osian. Looking forward to welcoming in the new era vs Turkey. |
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Post by surge on Jun 23, 2024 17:56:40 GMT
Interesting to see Osian so far ahead. Not to toot our horn too much as a community, but we are the people who probably spend the most time thinking and talking about Welsh football, so I'd say the hardcore fanbase have spoken. Osian is the fans choice But that doesn't necessarily mean he's the right choice for now. Just that we've all read the same articles and interviews. Of course he might be the right choice for now and that he has such a warm support from off will be a positive. If we head in that direction. |
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Post by marsvolta on Jun 23, 2024 17:57:14 GMT
Interesting to see Osian so far ahead. Not to toot our horn too much as a community, but we are the people who probably spend the most time thinking and talking about Welsh football, so I'd say the hardcore fanbase have spoken. Osian is the fans choice Osian is my choice too. Trouble is, he’ll not be a big enough name for the Twitter/Facebook mob. Some of who will be asking ‘Osian who?’ He’ll need to get off to a flyer otherwise we’ll be back to square one, with everything he says being challenged and every player he leaves out of the squad will suddenly become a world beater. |
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Post by iot on Jun 23, 2024 18:21:28 GMT
Trying to remember what Giggs did as a manager and the context he did it in. - Think he tried to move to 4-2-3-1 shape with Ramsey appearing at times at base of midfield and at times as a 10. Think this was to control the ball more than we did under Coleman - Bale played as CF (which I don't think worked). - Made sure we had CB's comfortable on the ball, even if that meant using James Lawrence who was slower than needed - Connor Roberts came in instead of Gunter I think he struggled to answer the question of how to play without focal point up top, one of my main questions going forward. Off the pitch, think he burned the bridge that was being built. Much better than a Sam Allardyce but I would have reservations. 'I think he struggled to answer the question of how to play without focal point up top, one of my main questions going forward'. I don't agree - he took the surprise decision to introduce Moore which transformed our Euro qualification campaign. It showed he was pretty tactically aware and happy to make big decisions, even if it went against how he himself used to play the game He also brought through loads of youngsters and effectively retired a lot of the older guard, most notably Gunter and even Ashley Williams. That was a very brave and confident decision as he knew he was not liked and a sequence of bad results would put him at risk. By contrast we had Page against Poland who was not able to use his bench as he was not confident / good enough to understand what they could bring, as he had not utilised them much previously. The big decisions decide big games in the balance. The tragedy of Giggs is that he was a confident manager in his decision making but his personal failings let Welsh football down and left his own managerial career in tatters You're missing the point there. The criticism was that Giggs wasn't able to find a working formula without Moore acting as the spearhead - we were terrible before Moore was introduced against Slovakia away, with really poor performances in the away double header against Hungary and Croatia and then at home to Azerbaijan. Page had much more success playing without Moore. There are some parallels with when Page introduced JJ and how that turned our campaign around. I agree that Giggs deserves credit for the youngsters he introduced, but I don't think he was a particularly good tactician or motivator. |
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Post by erasedcitizen on Jun 23, 2024 18:34:29 GMT
Interesting to see Osian so far ahead. Not to toot our horn too much as a community, but we are the people who probably spend the most time thinking and talking about Welsh football, so I'd say the hardcore fanbase have spoken. Osian is the fans choice Osian is my choice too. Trouble is, he’ll not be a big enough name for the Twitter/Facebook mob. Some of who will be asking ‘Osian who?’ He’ll need to get off to a flyer otherwise we’ll be back to square one, with everything he says being challenged and every player he leaves out of the squad will suddenly become a world beater. He'll get the time needed to build and challenge for a WC spot. |
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Post by winsumluzsum on Jun 23, 2024 18:55:06 GMT
Interesting to see Osian so far ahead. Not to toot our horn too much as a community, but we are the people who probably spend the most time thinking and talking about Welsh football, so I'd say the hardcore fanbase have spoken. Osian is the fans choice Osian is my choice too. Trouble is, he’ll not be a big enough name for the Twitter/Facebook mob. Some of who will be asking ‘Osian who?’ He’ll need to get off to a flyer otherwise we’ll be back to square one, with everything he says being challenged and every player he leaves out of the squad will suddenly become a world beater. Osian has quite widespread backing, even on club forums which are often superficial in their discussion about the national team. |
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Post by conwy10 on Jun 23, 2024 18:58:40 GMT
Osian is my choice too. Trouble is, he’ll not be a big enough name for the Twitter/Facebook mob. Some of who will be asking ‘Osian who?’ He’ll need to get off to a flyer otherwise we’ll be back to square one, with everything he says being challenged and every player he leaves out of the squad will suddenly become a world beater. He'll get the time needed to build and challenge for a WC spot. I can't see us qualifying for the World Cup again. We just aren't that good anymore. As long as we qualify for Euros I think that is more than enough for me. |
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Post by erasedcitizen on Jun 23, 2024 19:01:03 GMT
He'll get the time needed to build and challenge for a WC spot. I can't see us qualifying for the World Cup again. We just aren't that good anymore. As long as we qualify for Euros I think that is more than enough for me. That's the spirit. There'll be equal sides on paper to us qualifying. Have faith. |
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Post by talyfan on Jun 23, 2024 19:42:22 GMT
Andrew Crofts? Been at Brighton for a while in a plethora of roles. Still their at first tean coach despite the changes of managers.
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Post by winsumluzsum on Jun 23, 2024 19:50:16 GMT
Andrew Crofts? Been at Brighton for a while in a plethora of roles. Still their at first tean coach despite the changes of managers. Good shout. Highly thought of. |
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Post by redwall65 on Jun 23, 2024 20:15:37 GMT
We can’t underestimate the importance of this appointment for the future of Welsh football. Its a moment in time, both on and off the field.
Mooney will want a marquee signing and Osh isn’t that for him. He’s still using the FAW to build his CV and the appointment of a manager is the biggest ‘highlight’ of any CEO’s CV. But Mooney will be gone soon, so they have to do what is right for Welsh Football not Mooneys CV…
Financially they can’t afford a marquee signing so the debate internally will be furious as if they get a marquee signing will it mean dipping into the reserves?
Mooneys honeymoon period is fading amongst the council…. Lots of talk and no delivery… he’s still dining out on the legacy of work that was done before he even joined.. but financially they are in the worst place they have ever been.
So don’t underestimate how important this appointment is, financially, politically and for the long term stability of Welsh football.
The most important appointment (on and off the field) the FAW have had to make in 30 years. Don’t forget the blazers still hold the power to hire and fire..
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