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Post by robin1864 on Apr 7, 2019 11:45:43 GMT
Nowhere near enough to justify a recall. If he can get goals at championship level then maybe it not now. Personally hope never for 2 reasons 1. Means are strikers are doing okay 2. The circus that will surround a call up. If it was Tom Bradshaw, Burns or Watkins who scored 16 goals, people would be crying from the rooftops to get them called up. We've had threads on here before now advocating the call up of players in Scotland. 16 goals is plenty enough for a call-up. That said, the media circus around any recall of Ched would be insufferable. |
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Post by marsvolta on Apr 7, 2019 12:17:58 GMT
Interesting stat from Leon Barton - "Top Welsh goal scorer in the football league/EPL this season? You’re not gonna like this but it’s Ched Evans for League 1 Fleetwood (16 goals)" Unfortunately all this does is prove that, whether anyone thinks he is guilty or innocent,we lost a decent striker when Ched went into that hotel room in Rhyl. |
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Post by manulike on Apr 7, 2019 12:41:15 GMT
16 goals and 4 assists in 33 appearances is a very decent return. Gone under my radar, as I never recall dragonsoccer (or the WoL) once mentioning him this season... compared to the press Wes Burns does get with the same 33 appearances with 6 goals and 2 assists ;-) Only turned 30 in December. Maybe a recall by United if they dont make it into the PL? |
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Post by pendragon on Apr 7, 2019 15:37:08 GMT
2. The circus that will surround a call up. This. I won't go into the rights or wrongs of a call-up, but as extremely selfish as it sounds, I personally wouldn't want to see a call-up because of the potential impact it could have on the rest of the team. |
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Post by welshiron on Apr 7, 2019 18:29:38 GMT
Nowhere near enough to justify a recall. If he can get goals at championship level then maybe it not now. Personally hope never for 2 reasons 1. Means are strikers are doing okay 2. The circus that will surround a call up. If it was Tom Bradshaw, Burns or Watkins who scored 16 goals, people would be crying from the rooftops to get them called up. We've had threads on here before now advocating the call up of players in Scotland. 16 goals is plenty enough for a call-up. That said, the media circus around any recall of Ched would be insufferable. I was crying out for none of those to be called up |
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Post by conwy10 on Apr 8, 2019 21:47:14 GMT
I didn’t really keep up to date with any of this but wasn’t he acquitted in a retrial or something?
If that is the case would it be wrong of us to close the door on someone who’s been the victim of a terrible accusation, served a prison sentence and then found to be innocent?
I personally don’t think he’s good enough for Wales but is interesting to see where we’d draw the line.
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Post by pendragon on Apr 8, 2019 23:52:09 GMT
Yes, he was, but should someone be recalled despite a potential risk that it could possibly lead to a detrimental impact on the rest of the team? Whose interest should receive precedence in this situation?
I'm NOT saying that it would carry such a risk but there is surely more than one factor to consider here.
It's worth pointing out that in some countries, players are sometimes left out of their national squads due to personal conduct (that need not be illegal), although usually, another reason is officially given.
Notwithstanding, he should be considered only when his standard of football merits possible inclusion.
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Post by richierich333 on Apr 9, 2019 6:54:04 GMT
I didn’t really keep up to date with any of this but wasn’t he acquitted in a retrial or something? If that is the case would it be wrong of us to close the door on someone who’s been the victim of a terrible accusation, served a prison sentence and then found to be innocent? I personally don’t think he’s good enough for Wales but is interesting to see where we’d draw the line. This is why he shouldn't be included. |
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Post by fiveattheback on Apr 9, 2019 16:19:48 GMT
He's not good enough, already 30 so not going to improve and comes with way too much baggage
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Post by conwy10 on Apr 9, 2019 18:24:47 GMT
Yes, he was, but should someone be recalled despite a potential risk that it could possibly lead to a detrimental impact on the rest of the team? Whose interest should receive precedence in this situation? I'm NOT saying that it would carry such a risk but there is surely more than one factor to consider here. It's worth pointing out that in some countries, players are sometimes left out of their national squads due to personal conduct (that need not be illegal), although usually, another reason is officially given. Notwithstanding, he should be considered only when his standard of football merits possible inclusion. Just hypothetically here, I’d say if a player has been found innocent he should be treated as just another player. If there’s attention around it I see that as a problem with the players, coaching staff, fans, sponsors, media and not one the person himself, who in this case would be the victim. We will never know what properly happened that night but he’s been found innocent according to the country’s legal system. I’d hate to think if I was accused of a crime and was eventually found innocent I’d still have to face all the repercussions as I would if I was guilty. |
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Post by pendragon on Apr 9, 2019 19:42:11 GMT
I understand what you're saying, but if the recall has the potential to impact on more than one individual, then those other individuals' needs and interests also need to be taken into consideration.
As I mentioned, players whose conduct have called into question their integrity, have been singled out from their national squads. In those instances, their conduct has not necessarily been illegal.
Some might feel opposed to a recall for Evans on similar grounds.
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Post by conwy10 on Apr 9, 2019 21:19:36 GMT
I understand what you're saying, but if the recall has the potential to impact on more than one individual, then those other individuals' needs and interests also need to be taken into consideration. As I mentioned, players whose conduct have called into question their integrity, have been singled out from their national squads. In those instances, their conduct has not necessarily been illegal. Some might feel opposed to a recall for Evans on similar grounds. Yeah I get what you mean too, just opening it for debate really. I just think how devastated I’d be if I was banned from playing for my country because of a wrong place wrong time situation. |
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Post by welshiron on Apr 10, 2019 11:49:50 GMT
I understand what you're saying, but if the recall has the potential to impact on more than one individual, then those other individuals' needs and interests also need to be taken into consideration. As I mentioned, players whose conduct have called into question their integrity, have been singled out from their national squads. In those instances, their conduct has not necessarily been illegal. Some might feel opposed to a recall for Evans on similar grounds. Yeah I get what you mean too, just opening it for debate really. I just think how devastated I’d be if I was banned from playing for my country because of a wrong place wrong time situation. Think it was more than wrong place wrong time. Only 2 or 3 people know if hes guilty or not but he was eventually found innocent was that the truth or good lawyers we will never know. For me he isn't good enough for the squad and unless he was way ahead of other options I would not include him as the potential negatives would outweigh any positives. |
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Post by bringbackelmo on Apr 10, 2019 12:36:15 GMT
This thread resurfacing periodically is so depressing, particularly at a time when we have such an exciting young squad.
Even if you put his history aside (I wouldn't have him back on that basis), he is simply not good enough to be in the current squad.
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Post by biwmares on Apr 10, 2019 15:37:38 GMT
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Post by alarch on Apr 10, 2019 16:17:51 GMT
On the grounds of justice alone there should be no question about the merits of including Evans in the squad. This is someone who suffered a miscarriage of justice and 2 and a half years in prison for a crime he didn't commit. Contrast that with media darlings such as Troy Deeney, who was convicted of an act of thuggery (no doubt a reformed character), and it would be very hard to argue against any continued omission of Evans just on the grounds of how he may be perceived in some quarters. That would be merely compounding the injustice Evans has endured.
When it comes to footballing matter, to make a case for inclusion in a squad on footballing grounds when you're representing a League One club you need to be doing something special. 16 goals is no small matter - but he would need to be close to the 30 mark to be pushing his case (ironic considering that he exceeded 30 goals in League One for Sheffield United the season he was arrested). Having said that Lockyear is getting into Welsh squads on a regular basis, whilst playing for lowly Bristol Rovers, and with far greater competition in his position.
Chances are that Evans is too old and past his prime to see him included in Welsh squads in the future - but it wouldn't surprise me at all if those hoping that he will simply fade away into obscurity will be disappointed.
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Post by pendragon on Apr 10, 2019 16:42:43 GMT
There is no question that he is not guilty in the eyes of the law.
Some have raised questions about his conduct on the night in question, and on his character.
Just as some players have been deselected in the past due to involvement in scandals that called into question their personal integrity. It's the same issue with any other form of employment, you might not have committed any crime, but you have nevertheless conducted yourself in a manner that calls your personal integrity into question and potentially brings your employment into disrepute.
Under these circumstances, your employer (or the football association) has every right to sack you or to not select you (as the case may be) irrespective of your personal circumstances. It's not a black or white issue.
I agree with Bringbackelmo though, and this will (finally) be the last word from me on the subject.
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Post by alarch on Apr 10, 2019 17:04:03 GMT
There is no question that he is not guilty in the eyes of the law. Some have raised questions about his conduct on the night in question, and on his character. Just as some players have been deselected in the past due to involvement in scandals that called into question their personal integrity. It's the same issue with any other form of employment, you might not have committed any crime, but you have nevertheless conducted yourself in a manner that calls your personal integrity into question and potentially brings your employment into disrepute. Under these circumstances, your employer (or the football association) has every right to sack you or to not select you (as the case may be) irrespective of your personal circumstances. It's not a black or white issue. I agree with Bringbackelmo though, and this will (finally) be the last word from me on the subject. I understand your perspective I just don't agree with it. If Evans' footballing case for inclusion became compelling then there would be no justifiable basis for excluding him - in law or otherwise. If moral considerations should play any part in these decisions, whose morals? And how would we justify having Giggs as manager, whilst excluding Evans, given his chequered past? This is a minefield which we will probably avoid owing to Evans having missed the boat, and although there's a lot to be said about having an easy life, Evans' inclusion in a future Welsh squad would help to tease out a number of complex moral issues that will otherwise be conveniently be swept under the carpet. I, for one, am happy to have that debate. |
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Post by iot on Apr 10, 2019 21:03:01 GMT
If he was 25 or 26, I think he'd have a decent chance of making the squad. But he's only going to go downhill from here and he's not good enough now, so I can't see him offering anything to us unfortunately.
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Post by cymruramdcfc on Apr 11, 2019 9:07:06 GMT
he is 30 and only playing in league 1, sam vokes younger and playing higher level. yes retired its just showing that his day has gone, career was wasted after a big error of judgment
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Post by 1gwaunview on Apr 11, 2019 10:48:59 GMT
There is no question that he is not guilty in the eyes of the law. Some have raised questions about his conduct on the night in question, and on his character. Just as some players have been deselected in the past due to involvement in scandals that called into question their personal integrity. It's the same issue with any other form of employment, you might not have committed any crime, but you have nevertheless conducted yourself in a manner that calls your personal integrity into question and potentially brings your employment into disrepute. Under these circumstances, your employer (or the football association) has every right to sack you or to not select you (as the case may be) irrespective of your personal circumstances. It's not a black or white issue. I agree with Bringbackelmo though, and this will (finally) be the last word from me on the subject. I understand your perspective I just don't agree with it. If Evans' footballing case for inclusion became compelling then there would be no justifiable basis for excluding him - in law or otherwise. If moral considerations should play any part in these decisions, whose morals? And how would we justify having Giggs as manager, whilst excluding Evans, given his chequered past? This is a minefield which we will probably avoid owing to Evans having missed the boat, and although there's a lot to be said about having an easy life, Evans' inclusion in a future Welsh squad would help to tease out a number of complex moral issues that will otherwise be conveniently be swept under the carpet. I, for one, am happy to have that debate. This would also bring back to the fore the inevitable comments about the manager's morals or lack of them. |
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Post by pendragon on Apr 11, 2019 14:12:05 GMT
Conversely, it can work the other way. If you support Evans picking up his Wales International career, then surely you cannot raise an issue with Giggs' behaviour.
As it happens, I don't personally think both situations are comparable (although both are bad). I think one of those situations went beyond short or long-term infidelity, and tested the limits (and shortcomings) of the law on this area, even if the conduct itself was ultimately, not criminal.
That's it from me now. I just felt compelled to respond to the last point!
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Post by TheWelshWay on Apr 11, 2019 15:56:18 GMT
There is no question that he is not guilty in the eyes of the law. Some have raised questions about his conduct on the night in question, and on his character. Just as some players have been deselected in the past due to involvement in scandals that called into question their personal integrity. It's the same issue with any other form of employment, you might not have committed any crime, but you have nevertheless conducted yourself in a manner that calls your personal integrity into question and potentially brings your employment into disrepute. Under these circumstances, your employer (or the football association) has every right to sack you or to not select you (as the case may be) irrespective of your personal circumstances. It's not a black or white issue. I agree with Bringbacelmo though, and this will (finally) be the last word from me on the subject. So much for this haha  |
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Post by 1gwaunview on Apr 11, 2019 18:56:15 GMT
Conversely, it can work the other way. If you support Evans picking up his Wales International career, then surely you cannot raise an issue with Giggs' behaviour. As it happens, I don't personally think both situations are comparable (although both are bad). I think one of those situations went beyond short or long-term infidelity, and tested the limits (and shortcomings) of the law on this area, even if the conduct itself was ultimately, not criminal. That's it from me now. I just felt compelled to respond to the last point. Can't see Evans playing for Wales again, so let's hope this issue doesn't raise it's ugly head. |
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Post by manulike on May 9, 2019 11:16:00 GMT
Congratulations on being the top Welsh goal scorer in the EFL and good luck for a new and exciting future.
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Post by CrackityJones on Aug 6, 2019 16:43:43 GMT
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Post by welshrover on Dec 21, 2020 17:58:21 GMT
Today released by Fleetwood Town, "non footballing reasons"
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Post by marsvolta on Dec 22, 2020 7:35:59 GMT
Today released by Fleetwood Town, "non footballing reasons" Joey Barton says it’s for ‘discipline and behavioural reasons’. *Insert your own joke here* |
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Post by evans1282 on Dec 22, 2020 18:17:27 GMT
Even when he was the great new hope ,I always remember a story about how he didn't ride the team bus to an U21 game in Wrexham,so he could show off his new motor.It was a small thing but remember having a a little shake if the head at the time.
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Post by marsvolta on Dec 23, 2020 8:44:45 GMT
One report is saying that part of his discipline problems are due to the fact that ‘his personal circumstances have changed’.
Hmmmm.
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