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Post by garynysmon on Sept 29, 2024 18:26:37 GMT
I think playing in the EFL is light years away from the Welsh league for a start, financially for a start, And have you ever stopped to wonder why a developed nation like Wales, with a 3m population, has such an under-developed domestic structure in the first place? It never ceases to amaze me how so many fail to grasp that the Cymru Prem wouldn’t be in the shape it was it it actually was a national league. Its not inherent that any Welsh league is only ever allowed to have crowds of 400, the league we have just reflects the clubs that are members of it and as a result of all that media/supporters attention and cash being diverted over the border. Surely anyone can see that? |
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Post by kracken88 on Sept 29, 2024 18:30:29 GMT
Probably because of the geography layout and the weak fan support,why do you think football is flooded with betting site advertising at the top level even,it's the only companies with money to waste on any clubs that aren't playing at the top level,it's a money pit and Cardiff Swansea would never survive,that's the hard facts if football in the modern era I'm afraid,like it or nit
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Post by dragon64 on Sept 29, 2024 18:33:07 GMT
Cards on the table, I’m strongly of the belief that its a bit embarrassing that as a nation of 3m people that we have clubs playing in another country’s league. We’e not Liechtenstein and I feel that the argument that we couldn’t sustain a 10-12 team professional top-flight (if everything were equal) to be rather pathetic. So clearly I think all Welsh clubs should be in Welsh competition. End of. As a result I’m torn because I know how great it would be for any domestic side to face those teams on a regular basis, both from an attendance and financial point of view. The Welsh pyramid can feel a little 'closed off' at times and there are no 'giants' to face unless you make it to Europe. It would probably result in a decent sponsor and TV income, meaning the loss of one club’s Euro income would be mitigated by the across the board benefits. The only thing that sticks in my craw is they would be literally having their cake and eating it, picking off the parts of the Welsh system that suits them. But swallowing my pride, the additional income would probably felt by more clubs and would go further across the board than just handing 250k Euro a year to clubs that are going nowhere like Connah’s Quay or Bala wasting a European spot. Given that Newtown and Haverfordwest’s Chairmen, having received a presentation on the idea last week, seem so enthused on Twitter today suggests to me there’s major financial/commercial/media implications being talked about here. In an ideal World this would happen [but it isnt I am afraid] a big investor coming in and Cardiff,Swansea,Wrexham,Newport and Merthyr all back 'Home' playing in Wales that would be fantastic...in the FM World that is what I have set up, as it isnt going to happen IRL sadly. However what may be feasible one day is to have an U23/B team from those clubs playing full time in Wales that is the nearest we can get to what you/I want but I doubt this will happen either |
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Post by kracken88 on Sept 29, 2024 18:35:16 GMT
An reserve swans Cardiff is all that could happen,but would anyone want that,I wouldn't ,you do remember when Newport, Merthyr were doing amazing things in Europe,that's was through the Welsh cup,they weren't actually playing in a Welsh league,thats because sadly it isn't sustainable for those cell at that time,and sadly times are harder now for football clubs,its a keeping the heads above what life,im sure that money for getting into Europe through the Welsh league is good but its not a longer term plan than hopefully getting the riches in the English system,sadly
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Post by kracken88 on Sept 29, 2024 19:05:07 GMT
As it happens I want Briton ferry home games so I'm not a Welsh league hater but Swansea Cardiff surviving in this league it just fantasy , surviving as clubs as they are in their present state that is,how would they hope to survive in the Welsh league,I'm sorry in a perfect world it would be amazing but we will never be Croatia no matter how much you want us to be, would have to teach our children differently for a start ,and maybe pitches that weren't muddy, climate is a bigger thing to leaning passing a ball than we think lol
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Post by allezlesrouges on Sept 29, 2024 21:17:23 GMT
As it happens I want Briton ferry home games so I'm not a Welsh league hater but Swansea Cardiff surviving in this league it just fantasy , surviving as clubs as they are in their present state that is,how would they hope to survive in the Welsh league,I'm sorry in a perfect world it would be amazing but we will never be Croatia no matter how much you want us to be, would have to teach our children differently for a start ,and maybe pitches that weren't muddy, climate is a bigger thing to leaning passing a ball than we think lol Yeah but you're simply imagining the current league with the EFL clubs in it and you're not factoring in the fact that their presence would change things. It would bring in more supporters, more eyes on the league, more TV money, more European money, this in turn would pick up other clubs and overall things would be improved. More money in the league would mean better facilities and you wouldn't need to rely on muddy pitches, it would be mixed artificial all weather pitches and you'd get more games on all year round Yes the EFL clubs would have to scale back operations initially to adjust to the loss of some income, but the betterment of the league long term and European qualifications would compensate for this. Imagine Swansea/Cardiff in the Champions League group stages, Wrexham/Newport in the Europa League/Conference League, Merthyr/TNS pushing those clubs. TNS would have to adjust to not having a cake walk every season - maybe they'd be forced to appeal more to Oswestry Town and try and improve crowds etc...If this all happened the Welsh league could be a league in the same ball park as the Croatian league on the coefficient It won't happen, but I've never understood anyone who thinks the league is doomed to fail. It's currently a failing league because all our money and resources that we generate from our biggest football clubs gets diverted to England (a story old as time) |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Sept 29, 2024 21:36:33 GMT
I think the idea of the EFL clubs sacrificing their European spot in England makes so much sense. How many times since they could only qualify through the English system have any of them made it to Europe? Once I believe! It's hardly like they are turning something down that's a realistic option - their prospects are so much greater qualifying through the Welsh cups
I agree it should be the Welsh Cup proper. It would be weird for the League Cup to be a bigger deal than the Welsh Cup. However, there must be reasons for this? Maybe it's thinking ahead to if we do climb the coefficients and they want to give the Welsh Cup winner a Europa League qualifying spot? Might be one of the incentives for the Cymru Premier clubs to agree to it
Interesting to hear that Deloitte were commissioned by Swansea to investigate the financial implications of this. Given the reception it sounds like this is a move that will financially benefit the league as a whole. I get that on principal fans of clubs like Caernarfon might be frustrated that it potentially blocks them out of a European place. However I think we all want to see the league grow and this seems like a very positive step towards that
No change will benefit absolutely everyone, however this seems to be a change that benefits the majority of parties. It all seems to have been sparked by TNS's qualification opening people's eyes to the potential of Europe - I know they have their detractors but this is actually an example of TNS positively impacting the league systemically for once!
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Post by garynysmon on Sept 29, 2024 21:48:42 GMT
It won't happen, but I've never understood anyone who thinks the league is doomed to fail. It's currently a failing league because all our money and resources that we generate from our biggest football clubs gets diverted to England (a story old as time) Exactly this. Look, I’m not for a minute expecting it to happen, but its patently ridiculous to claim that the current setup is all we’re ever capable of achieving as a country. What we have now is the most hamstrung top divison in Europe, of course its not an accurate reflection of what it could be. Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham are bigger football clubs than any you’ll find in Ireland, but look at the LOI, a fully professional top flight with annual cup finals that fill the Aviva Stadium. Crowds of 2,3,4k are the norm from week to week. The additional revenue and status it would have from being a genuine Welsh league would, in turn, help other Welsh clubs with upside and a potential bigger supporter base such as Bangor, Colwyn Bay, Caernarfon, Penybont, Haverfordwest, Barry etc. No they would not become as big as the EPl 4 but they could become full-time sustainable clubs. Would any Cymru League match the Championship in revenue? I suppose not. But I suppose it depends if you’re willing for Cardiff and Swansea (in particular) to take a bit of a hit for the greater good. Again, its not happening unless UEFA intervene or the FA has a change of heart, but a full-time Welsh league would be more than feasible and would have a massive beneficial impact on the Welsh professional player pool. I agree it should be the Welsh Cup proper. It would be weird for the League Cup to be a bigger deal than the Welsh Cup. However, there must be reasons for this? Maybe it's thinking ahead to if we do climb the coefficients and they want to give the Welsh Cup winner a Europa League qualifying spot? Might be one of the incentives for the Cymru Premier clubs to agree to it ! I suspect as in the League Cup the Anglo clubs would only have to face Cymru Prem or Tier 2 clubs, whereas in the Welsh Cup they could face anyone (i.e a trip to a parks team rather than a Tier 1 or 2 club with at least a half decent ground, which could be a logistical nightmare with a big travelling support). Also the League Cup is a midweek competition while the Welsh Cup is played on weekends, which is out of the question for the EFL clubs. I do wonder if matches would end up being played during Sep, Oct, Nov international windows as I fail to see how they could accommodate fixtures otherwise. |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Sept 30, 2024 0:17:00 GMT
garynysmon ahh that makes sense now why they are pushing for it to be the league cup. In which case I'm behind the idea more
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Post by melynwy on Sept 30, 2024 11:28:11 GMT
You really see Swansea Cardiff etc playing in the Welsh league,that's pie in the sky and the death of those clubs,as patriotic as you are if you can't see that you are kidding yourself Of course it's unlikely to happen now, and would have a massive adverse effect on those clubs as you say. I don't think anyone is arguing against that. The point is that it's still a pretty crazy situation, but one that we've all become used to. From the outside looking in, it's a bit mad for one country to have it's best clubs playing in another, isn't it? At the moment it's totally unfeasible to change it, but it's still weird. It's not simply a case of "imagine the Cymru Premier as it is + Cardiff, Swansea, Wrexham and Newport" - that would clearly be a bit mad and a bit shit. It's a matter of imagining a much better league, with much bigger support, much more success in Europe etc. etc. etc. - things that a nation of 3m with a big interest in football ought to be able to do. It's not crazy to think about it - what's crazy is how poor our domestic system is compared to our population/football following. We'll never have a world class domestic competition, but it could be so much better. It's a matter of imagining Cardiff/Swansea etc. within that, not being dropped into the Cymru Premier as things are right now. As I said, we've become used to it as the norm, but it's still a crazy situation that a nation's clubs don't all play in the same system. |
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Post by fiveattheback on Sept 30, 2024 17:22:32 GMT
If the EFL teams are successful and increase the coefficient, would it lead to more European places? Hypothetically yes, although that would be a long long way off and quite unlikely if I'm being honest The way it works is clubs ranked 55th-51st in the coefficient get 3 places. 50th-16th get 4 places, 15th-7th get 5 places, 6th gets 6 places, and 5th-1st get 7 places This season we moved up 2 places to 50th, thereby gaining back our 4th place we lost a few seasons ago. However we wouldn't gain another place until being ranked 15th or higher. You have Scotland, Greece, Poland, Croatia, Ukraine all sitting outside of the top 15 so that gives you a clue about the standard. 5 places is probably not a realistic thing to aim for However what this move will undoubtedly do is to sure up our 4 places, and never be in a position where we are at risk of losing our 4th spot. I'd expect us to rise up the rankings over the next 10-15 years and settle somewhere between 30th-20th At 32 we'd get a Europa League spot |
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Post by conwy10 on Sept 30, 2024 22:03:38 GMT
You really see Swansea Cardiff etc playing in the Welsh league,that's pie in the sky and the death of those clubs,as patriotic as you are if you can't see that you are kidding yourself Of course it's unlikely to happen now, and would have a massive adverse effect on those clubs as you say. I don't think anyone is arguing against that. The point is that it's still a pretty crazy situation, but one that we've all become used to. From the outside looking in, it's a bit mad for one country to have it's best clubs playing in another, isn't it? At the moment it's totally unfeasible to change it, but it's still weird. It's not simply a case of "imagine the Cymru Premier as it is + Cardiff, Swansea, Wrexham and Newport" - that would clearly be a bit mad and a bit shit. It's a matter of imagining a much better league, with much bigger support, much more success in Europe etc. etc. etc. - things that a nation of 3m with a big interest in football ought to be able to do. It's not crazy to think about it - what's crazy is how poor our domestic system is compared to our population/football following. We'll never have a world class domestic competition, but it could be so much better. It's a matter of imagining Cardiff/Swansea etc. within that, not being dropped into the Cymru Premier as things are right now. As I said, we've become used to it as the norm, but it's still a crazy situation that a nation's clubs don't all play in the same system. To be fair if we dropped them into the Cymru Prem we wouldn't enrich the league, the support would leave them from Everton/Liverpool/City/United. Support needs to grow organically with the league. I think some clubs do a decent job. TNS, Bala for example do amazing with such little support. I don't see them as the problem. Bangor/Rhyl need to up their game. |
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Post by welshrover on Oct 1, 2024 7:52:23 GMT
Of course it's unlikely to happen now, and would have a massive adverse effect on those clubs as you say. I don't think anyone is arguing against that. The point is that it's still a pretty crazy situation, but one that we've all become used to. From the outside looking in, it's a bit mad for one country to have it's best clubs playing in another, isn't it? At the moment it's totally unfeasible to change it, but it's still weird. It's not simply a case of "imagine the Cymru Premier as it is + Cardiff, Swansea, Wrexham and Newport" - that would clearly be a bit mad and a bit shit. It's a matter of imagining a much better league, with much bigger support, much more success in Europe etc. etc. etc. - things that a nation of 3m with a big interest in football ought to be able to do. It's not crazy to think about it - what's crazy is how poor our domestic system is compared to our population/football following. We'll never have a world class domestic competition, but it could be so much better. It's a matter of imagining Cardiff/Swansea etc. within that, not being dropped into the Cymru Premier as things are right now. As I said, we've become used to it as the norm, but it's still a crazy situation that a nation's clubs don't all play in the same system. To be fair if we dropped them into the Cymru Prem we wouldn't enrich the league, the support would leave them from Everton/Liverpool/City/United. Support needs to grow organically with the league. I think some clubs do a decent job. TNS, Bala for example do amazing with such little support. I don't see them as the problem. Bangor/Rhyl need to up their game. I would love to revisit the days of proper Rhyl Bangor matches but the clue is in the the fact that we both carry a year at the end of our names. We both went bust, we have no money and without the folding stuff no team is ever going to be in a position to challenge TNS over a prolonged period. |
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Post by winsumluzsum on Oct 1, 2024 10:58:36 GMT
The EFL quartet will never willingly join the Cymru Premier. Forget about the Premier League, just playing in the Championship, which is the long term level of Cardiff and Swansea and perhaps Wrexham if Reynolds and McIlhenny continue to be involved, is far, far above the level of the Cymru Premier under the most optimistic forecast. Take attendances, even the most poorly supported teams average over 11,000 - and that’s down to limited capacity. The average Championship gate is around 26,000. The average gate in the Cymru Premier is just north of 300 i.e. just over 1% of the Championship. Under the most favourable of circumstances I couldn't see that growing to much more than a couple of thousands, boosted by the South Wales derby (although the derby might struggle to attract gates of 10,000 in the Cymru Premier).
It may be anomalous (although not unique - consider Liechtenstein), but the Welsh participation in the EFL is extremely fortunate, which we should be grateful for in the same way that the fans of the top PL clubs such as Man City should be that their clubs get to participate in the top European competitions annually. Why curtail the ambition of clubs to play at the highest level available to them?
In any event, short of Cymru becoming independent, it’s never going to happen, and it’s a waste of time and energy thinking about it. The participation of the EFL quartet in the league cup is as good as it gets.
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Post by allezlesrouges on Oct 1, 2024 14:57:25 GMT
The EFL quartet will never willingly join the Cymru Premier. Forget about the Premier League, just playing in the Championship, which is the long term level of Cardiff and Swansea and perhaps Wrexham if Reynolds and McIlhenny continue to be involved, is far, far above the level of the Cymru Premier under the most optimistic forecast. Take attendances, even the most poorly supported teams average over 11,000 - and that’s down to limited capacity. The average Championship gate is around 26,000. The average gate in the Cymru Premier is just north of 300 i.e. just over 1% of the Championship. Under the most favourable of circumstances I couldn't see that growing to much more than a couple of thousands, boosted by the South Wales derby (although the derby might struggle to attract gates of 10,000 in the Cymru Premier). It may be anomalous (although not unique - consider Liechtenstein), but the Welsh participation in the EFL is extremely fortunate, which we should be grateful for in the same way that the fans of the top PL clubs such as Man City should be that their clubs get to participate in the top European competitions annually. Why curtail the ambition of clubs to play at the highest level available to them? In any event, short of Cymru becoming independent, it’s never going to happen, and it’s a waste of time and energy thinking about it. The participation of the EFL quartet in the league cup is as good as it gets. I don't think there's mamy people who think it would be a good move short term, however I think people overestimate how much it would hamper those clubs moving over and underestimate how much it could improve the Cymru Premier However, I am an advocate for those clubs helping the league by doing well in Europe, whilst also remaining in the EFL. However, all 4 clubs need to do more to develop Welsh talent and to ensure minutes for Welsh footballers in my opinion |
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Post by winsumluzsum on Oct 1, 2024 18:51:55 GMT
Even Merthyr fans aren't enamoured of the idea of playing in the Cymru Premier and they would have more to gain than lose. The idea of playing a handful of competitive games every season in front of small crowds is totally dismal. I don't think it's overestimating the impact on the EFL clubs at all to see joining the Cymru Premier as an altogether bad move. Going down this rabbit hole is needlessly alienating, especially considering that the suggested involvement of the EFL cubs in the league Cup could work well for all parties.
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Post by garynysmon on Oct 1, 2024 20:21:50 GMT
Going down this rabbit hole is needlessly alienating, especially considering that the suggested involvement of the EFL cubs in the league Cup could work well for all parties. Only in Wales would the idea of clubs playing in their own country be considered an outrage and not even worth of debate though. |
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Post by kracken88 on Oct 1, 2024 21:20:17 GMT
It's not really a patriotic thing though is it,it's the harsh facts about the finances it takes to run swans, Cardiff,you can spin it however you want it still wouldn't work, well it wouldn't keep Swansea and Cardiff at the level they are now, wouldn't even cone close,you can say its a travesy but what are actual financial solutions to have this perfect world where all our teams play in our countries league,
TV rights because they are in Europe? You think anyone would actually put in the same money of the EFL? It just wouldn't happen
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Post by winsumluzsum on Oct 1, 2024 21:57:57 GMT
Going down this rabbit hole is needlessly alienating, especially considering that the suggested involvement of the EFL cubs in the league Cup could work well for all parties. Only in Wales would the idea of clubs playing in their own country be considered an outrage and not even worth of debate though. It would be great for the existing Cymru Premier sides (well perhaps not, seeing as they would have zero chance of winning the league) but terrible for the EFL clubs. You would have a low grade version of the Scottish setup. Totally unattractive. |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Oct 2, 2024 8:52:47 GMT
Only in Wales would the idea of clubs playing in their own country be considered an outrage and not even worth of debate though. It would be great for the existing Cymru Premier sides (well perhaps not, seeing as they would have zero chance of winning the league) but terrible for the EFL clubs. You would have a low grade version of the Scottish setup. Totally unattractive. The Scottish setup is great. Big crowds and a top 20 European league where the top 2 clubs do quite well in Europe and have some memorable nights. I would kill for the Cymru Premier to be a weaker imitation of the Scottish setup. It would do great things for the national team. At present we're quite unique amongst Europe for not having a pool of players from our national league that we can call upon |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Oct 2, 2024 8:54:54 GMT
Even Merthyr fans aren't enamoured of the idea of playing in the Cymru Premier and they would have more to gain than lose. The idea of playing a handful of competitive games every season in front of small crowds is totally dismal. I don't think it's overestimating the impact on the EFL clubs at all to see joining the Cymru Premier as an altogether bad move. Going down this rabbit hole is needlessly alienating, especially considering that the suggested involvement of the EFL cubs in the league Cup could work well for all parties. Yeah but I think it says more about Merthyr fans than anything. They'd be far better off in the Cymru Leagues than where they currently are. I have no idea why they want to stay at their level, it makes no sense and whenever I've asked their fans they just come up with things that don't make any sense to me |
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Post by garynysmon on Oct 2, 2024 10:29:06 GMT
quote] It would be great for the existing Cymru Premier sides (well perhaps not, seeing as they would have zero chance of winning the league) but terrible for the EFL clubs. You would have a low grade version of the Scottish setup. Totally unattractive. So basically doubling or even trebling the number of professional clubs in Wales, thus a massive increase in the number of Welsh professional footballers? No one saying its not in Cardiff or Swansea’s personal interest to remain in the EPL Championship, but from a Welsh football general viewpoint its a much healthier situation and more reflective of where a country of our size and stature should be domestically. |
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Post by tbm on Oct 2, 2024 22:54:02 GMT
So basically doubling or even trebling the number of professional clubs in Wales, thus a massive increase in the number of Welsh professional footballers? Where does this assumption come from? A professional club costs at least £1.5m per year. Without European money, solidarity payments, many commercial opportunities for most clubs in smaller towns, or a significant local broadcaster, the only option to turn pro would be huge average attendances (3,000+?) at triple the current ticket price I'd be more concerned about Newport going semi-pro than Caernarfon turning pro |
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Post by welshdan1927 on Oct 3, 2024 5:30:30 GMT
So basically doubling or even trebling the number of professional clubs in Wales, thus a massive increase in the number of Welsh professional footballers? Where does this assumption come from? A professional club costs at least £1.5m per year. Without European money, solidarity payments, many commercial opportunities for most clubs in smaller towns, or a significant local broadcaster, the only option to turn pro would be huge average attendances (3,000+?) at triple the current ticket price I'd be more concerned about Newport going semi-pro than Caernarfon turning pro Are TNS not the only pro club ATM? This a trebling wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility. |
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Post by welshrover on Oct 3, 2024 12:15:31 GMT
Although we are not in the Cymru Premier, Rhyl finally own Belle Vue after renting it for decades.
There does appear to have been quite a lot of help with the purchase with various grants and it looks like a contribution from the FAW.
Perhaps they see it as a future Northern venue for youth internationals, some have been played their in the past.
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Post by tbm on Oct 3, 2024 18:25:16 GMT
Where does this assumption come from? A professional club costs at least £1.5m per year. Without European money, solidarity payments, many commercial opportunities for most clubs in smaller towns, or a significant local broadcaster, the only option to turn pro would be huge average attendances (3,000+?) at triple the current ticket price I'd be more concerned about Newport going semi-pro than Caernarfon turning pro Are TNS not the only pro club ATM? This a trebling wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility. Again, how so? With Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham taking huge hits in popularity, yet still hoovering up most of the European money, why do Caernarfon or Aberystwyth suddenly find a 1,000% increase in revenue to justify a longterm turn to professionalism? Where does this assumed huge influx of cash for midtable teams from relatively small towns come from? |
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Post by fiveattheback on Oct 3, 2024 19:22:51 GMT
Are TNS not the only pro club ATM? This a trebling wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility. Again, how so? With Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham taking huge hits in popularity, yet still hoovering up most of the European money, why do Caernarfon or Aberystwyth suddenly find a 1,000% increase in revenue to justify a longterm turn to professionalism? Where does this assumed huge influx of cash for midtable teams from relatively small towns come from? That's the kicker really isn't it? How many Cymru Premier teams play in towns of over 20,000 people? Penybont & Barry certainly, anyone else? Aber maybe? (I'm not counting Cardiff Met) |
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Post by kracken88 on Oct 3, 2024 20:15:29 GMT
Some people seem to want to drsg the Welsh teams playing in England down to the level of all the other cymru teams just so they are teams playing in our country,it's understandable on some level I guess if all out national team players weren't playing in England and mostly reared by English teams,just seems hypocritical, small we ban all English league players from out national team as well
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Post by allezlesrouges on Oct 4, 2024 10:07:49 GMT
Are TNS not the only pro club ATM? This a trebling wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility. Again, how so? With Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham taking huge hits in popularity, yet still hoovering up most of the European money, why do Caernarfon or Aberystwyth suddenly find a 1,000% increase in revenue to justify a longterm turn to professionalism? Where does this assumed huge influx of cash for midtable teams from relatively small towns come from? It's systemic. Having the additional professional clubs would increases viewership, attendances, TV interest and money into the league. Over the course of 10 years you'd then start to see other clubs improving their attendances with big clubs coming to town. No one is saying this would improve the EFL clubs, but it would without doubt improve the league as a whole |
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Post by welshdan1927 on Oct 4, 2024 22:34:53 GMT
Are TNS not the only pro club ATM? This a trebling wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility. Again, how so? Well if my maths is correct, to treble the number of professional clubs in the Welsh Premier we'd need two clubs to turn pro. That's all I'm getting at. It won't take a lot to change the picture of the league forever. Of course the real issue with all this is whilst our biggest clubs are chained to the English system, so is our economy. Several of the poorest regions in western Europe lie this side of the Severn Bridge. Until that changes, it will be a struggle. |
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