|
|
Post by iot on Apr 26, 2017 17:04:05 GMT
Of course I expect a little bit of bias. Where did I say I didn't? I'm just pointing out that it's a little bit more than a little bit of bias, that's all. Here's a line from above (before I posted): "I remember when Shawcross broke Ramseys leg, I hated every inch of him, and thought he should be banned from football." The reaction here, in comparison to that, shrieking about a two game ban for a literal leg breaker, is more than a little bit of bias, and a little bit of double standards. It's not black and white, but there's no need for "whataboutery", re: Glenn Whelan and others. Whelan didn't "get away with murder"; he got away with a questionable challenge or two. I'm not denying Ireland got a few favourable decisions. However, both teams did: Bale got away with a challenge worse than anything any Irish player did. The ref was lenient to both sides on the night, there's no doubt about that, and indeed there's a solid argument that with a stronger ref, who had properly punished your bun-haired hero, Coleman would have been grand. I note that this has not been denied. Anyway, engaging with the whataboutery, the long and the short of it is this: the worst two challenges on the night (by a f**king long shot) came inside the space of sixty seconds, and they both came from Welsh players. That's undeniable. You can have no complaints with a two game ban for Taylor, and whether Whelan or Long should have been sent off has literally nothing to do with that. And Coleman, while he is one of our best players, is not Gareth Bale. Bale is head and shoulders your best player; Coleman is merely a solid, consistent Premier League pro, in comparison. We don't have many of them, which is why he's a big miss. Further, as acknowledged above: "2 games won't stop someone doing that in the heat of the moment when their head has gone and for all we know it could be Bale on the end of it, heaven forbid." Maybe that's why Irish fans wanted a longer ban for Neil Taylor. A 2 game ban won't stop players diving in like that. If it was a six game ban, maybe it would. I'm not saying it should have been that length, but we can all agree tackles like Taylor's have no place in the game. In short, and to reiterate the main point, to be up in arms about a two game ban for Neil Taylor, is laughable in the extreme. It is deniable, it's rubbish. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2017 17:07:28 GMT
Of course I expect a little bit of bias. Where did I say I didn't? I'm just pointing out that it's a little bit more than a little bit of bias, that's all. Here's a line from above (before I posted): "I remember when Shawcross broke Ramseys leg, I hated every inch of him, and thought he should be banned from football." The reaction here, in comparison to that, shrieking about a two game ban for a literal leg breaker, is more than a little bit of bias, and a little bit of double standards. It's not black and white, but there's no need for "whataboutery", re: Glenn Whelan and others. Whelan didn't "get away with murder"; he got away with a questionable challenge or two. I'm not denying Ireland got a few favourable decisions. However, both teams did: Bale got away with a challenge worse than anything any Irish player did. The ref was lenient to both sides on the night, there's no doubt about that, and indeed there's a solid argument that with a stronger ref, who had properly punished your bun-haired hero, Coleman would have been grand. I note that this has not been denied. Anyway, engaging with the whataboutery, the long and the short of it is this: the worst two challenges on the night (by a f**king long shot) came inside the space of sixty seconds, and they both came from Welsh players. That's undeniable. You can have no complaints with a two game ban for Taylor, and whether Whelan or Long should have been sent off has literally nothing to do with that. And Coleman, while he is one of our best players, is not Gareth Bale. Bale is head and shoulders your best player; Coleman is merely a solid, consistent Premier League pro, in comparison. We don't have many of them, which is why he's a big miss. Further, as acknowledged above: "2 games won't stop someone doing that in the heat of the moment when their head has gone and for all we know it could be Bale on the end of it, heaven forbid." Maybe that's why Irish fans wanted a longer ban for Neil Taylor. A 2 game ban won't stop players diving in like that. If it was a six game ban, maybe it would. I'm not saying it should have been that length, but we can all agree tackles like Taylor's have no place in the game. In short, and to reiterate the main point, to be up in arms about a two game ban for Neil Taylor, is laughable in the extreme. Now it is you who is wearing the tinted specs. Stronger reffing on Bale? With respect there are refs who would have given reds to Whelan for the arm to Allen and to Shane Long for his stamp and shoulder on Williams. You could quite conceivably have been two men down by half time, that would have saved Coleman so why are you not a noyed at your own players for not 'taking one for the team' and saving Coleman from a broken leg. If you browse these boards properly you will see that most do not condone at all the tackles our players have put in, yet all I see from you lot is trying to excuse your thuggery by classing it as 'whataboutery' - I mean what? I've never even heard that phrase until you lot showed up on our boards. It is a cultural Irish thing to deflect from discussing your part in contentious issues? You lot are obviously old hands at this! xD So yeah, that for me has been the biggest disappointment of this whole sorry debacle. Most of us have condemned our tackles yet I have seen very little condemnation from the Irish about the tackles they put in. You should be denouncing your tactics regardless of whether you got a card for it FFS! Go and have another look at Long's challenge, sly in the extreme. If you are proud to have players like that represent you then good luck to you son, thankfully most of us are able to call a spade a spade, a humility that the Irish as a whole know nothing of. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2017 17:10:54 GMT
I should add that if your plauers hadn't acted like thugs Bale and Taylor would not have made challenges like that, they are both not exactly known for their hard man image.
The management and players of ROI have to take a certain amount of responsibility for escalating things to the point where your player got injured. You were like a playground bully that got a slap off his victim. You need to go away and have a little think about the role Ireland played in all this.
|
|
|
|
Post by erasedcitizen on Apr 26, 2017 17:18:01 GMT
The management and players of ROI have to take a certain amount of responsibility for escalating things to the point where your player got injured. You were like a playground bully that got a slap off his victim. You need to go away and have a little think about the role Ireland played in all this. This is what really grates me about Ireland and plays a large part in why I'm so keen to see them fail in this campaign. Their management is the reason the game was dragged into the mud and had this not have happened, Coleman would most likely still be available for Ireland to use. Despite this, the Irish management were the ones calling for Taylor to receive a lengthy ban. The absolute cheek of it! |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2017 17:29:26 GMT
The management and players of ROI have to take a certain amount of responsibility for escalating things to the point where your player got injured. You were like a playground bully that got a slap off his victim. You need to go away and have a little think about the role Ireland played in all this. This is what really grates me about Ireland and plays a large part in why I'm so keen to see them fail in this campaign. Their management is the reason the game was dragged into the mud and had this not have happened, Coleman would most likely still be available for Ireland to use. Despite this, the Irish management were the ones calling for Taylor to receive a lengthy ban. The absolute cheek of it! Exactly. I wish the media would look at things objectively. Look at Wales disciplinary record and our behaviour in the Euros. If anything we are far too meek as a side. So why were people not asking why a team like Wales suddenly snaps and starts putting in disgusting challenges? Were we not provoked, at all? Honestly, I've had such a fucking gutsful of the saintly, holier than thou Irish that I hope we go full bore on them in Cardiff. If we can't rely on an Italian ref to take a hardline on bullying behaviour we need to do it ourselves from the first whistle and let the Irish know that they will be lucky to escape without another serious injury unless they cut their bullshit out. |
|
|
|
Post by vandenhauwe on Apr 26, 2017 18:36:54 GMT
Just been on the highly intelligent irish forum super daves on there saying hes on here to wind us up....neil taylor is still the devil on there and whealen is still a saint yawn.
|
|
|
|
Post by superdave on Apr 26, 2017 18:45:52 GMT
Whataboutery: definition: deflection from one topic by saying "what about" another; e.g. "what about Whelan?" "what about Long?".
Taking the replies in turn:
Taylor's tackle, even without injury, deserved a red card. It was late, high and over the ball, designed to save himself from injury, without real regard for the consequences, or whether another player was injured. I'm not denying it was an honest attempt to win the ball, but it was nonetheless reckless in the extreme.
Next point, on Bale's tackle:
The fact a tackle takes place in the goalmouth doesn't mean it is not reckless. Two players go for a ball, one gets there before the other, the second player catches the first, studs up, straight leg on a planted foot: regardless of where that happens, it's a reckless foul and deserves at least a free kick, probably a yellow, possibly a red. There were no other tackles that reckless on the night, aside from Taylor's, even if Long and Whelan, and even a few others from Irish players, were the wrong side of robust and the wrong side of fair. They may even have been cynical, but there is a difference between cynicism and dangerous play.
Re: Long and Whelan:
I'm not ignoring them, nor trying to excuse them, the very opposite. We all agree stronger refereeing on the night and Coleman would likely have been fine. Whether that was by properly punishing Whelan and Long, or properly punishing Bale, it wouldn't have happened. Bringing up those issues is, however, deflecting from the primary issue here: the leg breaker from Taylor. Also, the fact Ireland made a few strong tackles does not in any way excuse what Bale and Taylor did (nor does the reverse excuse anything either, of course). Maybe Bale and Taylor were provoked, but that doesn't excuse their actions, and the failure to turn the other cheek, rather than diving in repeatedly and recklessly. If they were bigger men, they would have responded with skill, rather than equal or worse thuggery. Their reaction doesn't speak of a side who are "far too meek", anyway. The actions of Irish players earlier in no way excuse the actions of the Welsh players. Bringing that up is deflection, no doubt. Maybe Ireland were trying to drag the game down, making it less about skill and more about fight. However, they managed to do that without maiming any of their opponents. It is utterly illogical to claim that because in a physical match Ireland acted less than fairly (which, no doubt, Ireland did), that somehow Ireland are to blame when one of their own is left with a leg looking like something from a Victorian medical journal, as a result of a tackle unlike anything that had gone before (even ignoring Bale's studs up plant on O'Shea). Saying that the Irish need to go away and think about themselves and their alleged "holier than thou" attitude is more than a bit ironic. I'm not saying Ireland were much better, but at least all your players walked off the pitch. Blaming Ireland for the actions of Taylor is, frankly, 100% complete, unadulterated, ludicrous, fragrant bullsh*t; it actually offends my sense of smell to read such total bollocks.
Also, I'm not sure O'Neill and Keane did call for a longer ban; all I can see is a line from O'Neill saying "I've seen the challenge on Seamus, I've seen the challenge on John. They are very poor". If there is more than that, so be it, but I'm not sure there is.
It was a tough game with more than one or two questionable challenges by both sides, but all the Welsh players walked off the pitch. One Irishman was carried out with his leg bones in multiple pieces and an oxygen mask on his face. No amount of deflection, or blaming Whelan and Long for what happened, will change any of that. It's not about being holier than thou, it's about properly punishing reckless play so it doesn't happen again. The referee was poor all night, but none of that excuses Taylor.
A two game ban is lenient, in the extreme.
Finally, I have engaged with the posts and posters on here on even terms. Lines like "thankfully most of us are able to call a spade a spade, a humility that the Irish as a whole know nothing of", castigating an entire nation because of one or two posts on my part and on the part of others, are another extreme overreaction, not to mention close to racist. I haven't come on here and accused Welsh people as a whole of anything. I've responded the points raised calmly and politely (with a little exaggeration for effect), without resorting to stereotypes; I'd have hoped you'd all have been capable of the same, but it seems not. I haven't resorted to bald vengeance either. Hell, with lines like "we need to ... let the Irish know that they will be lucky to escape without another serious injury unless they cut their bullshit out", you'd swear you were the ones with the player with a broken leg!
I don't think I have much more to say other than that I haven't seen anything that makes me think Taylor deserved less than a two game ban.
|
|
|
|
Post by oscardelta on Apr 26, 2017 19:00:17 GMT
I should add that if your plauers hadn't acted like thugs Bale and Taylor would not have made challenges like that, they are both not exactly known for their hard man image. The management and players of ROI have to take a certain amount of responsibility for escalating things to the point where your player got injured. You were like a playground bully that got a slap off his victim. You need to go away and have a little think about the role Ireland played in all this. Sorry but why was Bale sent off again when playing for RM after his comeback ? What it for blowing kisses at the ref or kicking a player on the ground ? As for Taylor, hell even on here pre match there was questions as to whether he was right choice and it is not his first time beings ent off for reckless challenges, he lastest less than 90 seconds v Forest and got dismissed for a foot in challenge. |
|
|
|
Post by vandenhauwe on Apr 26, 2017 19:08:10 GMT
I should add that if your plauers hadn't acted like thugs Bale and Taylor would not have made challenges like that, they are both not exactly known for their hard man image. The management and players of ROI have to take a certain amount of responsibility for escalating things to the point where your player got injured. You were like a playground bully that got a slap off his victim. You need to go away and have a little think about the role Ireland played in all this. Sorry but why was Bale sent off again when playing for RM after his comeback ? What it for blowing kisses at the ref or kicking a player on the ground ? As for Taylor, hell even on here pre match there was questions as to whether he was right choice and it is not his first time beings ent off for reckless challenges, he lastest less than 90 seconds v Forest and got dismissed for a foot in challenge. Theres zero point carrying this on all welsh players are dirty all irish players are saints and they've never had a player sent off ever!If it keeps the irish happy then they'll stop coming on here and it'll be peace and quiet the entire thing is boring now... |
|
|
|
Post by superdave on Apr 26, 2017 19:15:44 GMT
No one has said our players are saints.
But neither are yours. No one is saying they are *all* dirty, either.
To suggest that their behaviour is excusable because it was responding to provocation, even if true, is nonsense. They need to take responsibility for their own actions. Taylor's two game ban is certainly no greater than justified and he should be happy it wasn't more.
|
|
|
|
Post by irish on Apr 26, 2017 20:22:49 GMT
What a fucking disgrace that is. FIFA are a fucking joke and the sooner it collapses the better. What grounds do they have to hand out a longer ban for this?
I hope Ireland crash and burn. Calm down ffs. You are a moderator aren't you?  Anyway I didn't know much about Article 48 of the FIFA Discliplinary Code but he has breached it. Article 48 Misconduct against players or persons other than match offi cials 1. Including the automatic suspension incurred in accordance with art. 18 par. 4, the overall suspension imposed on any person receiving a direct red card shall be for: a) at least one match for denying the opposing team a clear goal-scoring opportunity (particularly by deliberately handling the ball); b) at least two matches for serious foul play (particularly in the case
of excessive or brute force);
c) at least two matches for unsporting conduct towards an opponent or a person other than a match offi cial (subject to art. 53, 54 and 57-60); d) at least two matches for assaulting (elbowing, punching, kicking etc.) an opponent or a person other than a match offi cial; e) at least six matches for spitting at an opponent or a person other than a match official. Do you not think Taylor whether intentional or not has definitely breached this in relation to point b? With Bale the ball was there to be won in fairness but it still should have been red for dangerous play imo. |
|
|
|
Post by vandenhauwe on Apr 26, 2017 20:38:15 GMT
Im surprised it was'nt three games for taylor i expected him to get three,fair point bale could've gone for sure!whealen should've gone 100% long could've gone fact is ref didn't do his job and not much has been said about his poor performance!
|
|
|
|
Post by alarch on Apr 26, 2017 20:49:51 GMT
I can understand how upset the Irish posters feel about Coleman's injury, been there got the t-shirt. But their inability to be objective is making them look ridiculous.
Taking the incidents in chronological order:
Long's very late dipped shoulder into the side of Williams' face was by some distance the most cynical and deliberate of the evening. A definite red card, and if it weren't for the fact that Williams is made of granite, a probable jaw-breaker.
Whelan's elbow into Joe Allen face. Reckless in the extreme and dangerous. A certain red card. Had he received his marching orders the FIFA regulations quoted (point d) above would have meant that he would be facing a 2 match ban.
David Meyler at the start of the second half caught Ramsey on the side of the head with the point of his elbow. He got a yellow card, a less lenient ref could have given a red. So at this point ROI should have been down to 9, possibly 8 men.
Bale's challenge was reckless, and I wouldn't have complained had he received a red for it.
Taylor's challenge was very reckless and I have no complaint about the red card. But it wasn't late at all (both players arrived at the ball simultaneously). The difference is that Coleman played the ball cleanly, whereas Taylor missed it. The point of contact is unclear, but it looks more likely that Coleman connected with Taylor's ankle or lower leg rather than Taylor's studs catching Coleman. The leg break was freakish and extremely unlucky for Coleman for certain. When the outcome is that bad it's hard to complain about a lengthier ban, but a 2 game ban is proportionate when you consider the precise circumstances in detail.
Finally, Whelan could easily have been sent off a second time for his raking of Richards' shins.
A strict referee would have been entirely justified in sending off 4 Irish players (well, one twice over) and 2 Welsh ones. Mind you, had the ref done his job properly then Wales would have been facing 8 or 9 Irish players for most of the second half - in which case I very much doubt either Bale nor Taylor's tackles would have ever happened.
|
|
|
|
Post by irish on Apr 26, 2017 21:03:25 GMT
Im surprised it was'nt three games for taylor i expected him to get three,fair point bale could've gone for sure!whealen should've gone 100% long could've gone fact is ref didn't do his job and not much has been said about his poor performance! Wasn't entirely sure of the rules myself with internationals but it's an automatic one game suspension at international level which isn't surprising giving there's lesser games than club level. Long's was definitely a yellow but you're not going to get a red for leaving you're foot in on the opposing players foot when making a clearance. Regarding Whelan's elbow, it's not quite Fashanu but wouldn't have been surprised if he seen red. I don't think it was a 100% red as he like Long was cute enough to not make the foul that blatant. I knew it would suit Ireland to make it a scrap given our style of play and it was even more compounded by our injury list. I think Johnny Giles gave a fair enough take on Irish radio if you haven't heard it yet. I'll post the link below www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzSq5dPWP50 |
|
|
|
Post by alarch on Apr 26, 2017 21:20:51 GMT
Have you looked at Long's challenge frame-by-frame irishmufc? Clearly not, but I have, and you can clearly see that not only is he very late, but he clearly (avoidably and intentionally) dips his shoulder into the side of Williams' face. The fact that Williams - who's pretty much indestructible - was laid out, says it all.
Once you've watched the coverage as closely as I have irishmufc come back and try telling me that it wasn't a certain red card...
|
|
|
|
Post by oscardelta on Apr 26, 2017 21:40:56 GMT
Sorry but why was Bale sent off again when playing for RM after his comeback ? What it for blowing kisses at the ref or kicking a player on the ground ? As for Taylor, hell even on here pre match there was questions as to whether he was right choice and it is not his first time beings ent off for reckless challenges, he lastest less than 90 seconds v Forest and got dismissed for a foot in challenge. Theres zero point carrying this on all welsh players are dirty all irish players are saints and they've never had a player sent off ever!If it keeps the irish happy then they'll stop coming on here and it'll be peace and quiet the entire thing is boring now... I haven't been doing it and nope not claiming we are saints either. |
|
|
|
Post by manulike on Apr 26, 2017 21:47:07 GMT
What a fucking disgrace that is. FIFA are a fucking joke and the sooner it collapses the better. What grounds do they have to hand out a longer ban for this?
I hope Ireland crash and burn.Calm down ffs. You are a moderator aren't you? Anyway I didn't know much about Article 48 of the FIFA Discliplinary Code but he has breached it. Article 48 Misconduct against players or persons other than match offi cials 1. Including the automatic suspension incurred in accordance with art. 18 par. 4, the overall suspension imposed on any person receiving a direct red card shall be for: a) at least one match for denying the opposing team a clear goal-scoring opportunity (particularly by deliberately handling the ball); b) at least two matches for serious foul play (particularly in the case
of excessive or brute force);
c) at least two matches for unsporting conduct towards an opponent or a person other than a match offi cial (subject to art. 53, 54 and 57-60); d) at least two matches for assaulting (elbowing, punching, kicking etc.) an opponent or a person other than a match offi cial; e) at least six matches for spitting at an opponent or a person other than a match official. Do you not think Taylor whether intentional or not has definitely breached this in relation to point b? With Bale the ball was there to be won in fairness but it still should have been red for dangerous play imo.
The injury itself was horrible, NOT the tackle.
There are worse tackles in every single EPL match. Luckily, players seldom get so badly injured.
The two match ban is a disgrace. It is classic bowing down to Irish and English media pressure.
To justify the punishment in some way by talking of the actual injury suffered is a nonsense. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2017 21:53:46 GMT
I can understand how upset the Irish posters feel about Coleman's injury, been there got the t-shirt. But their inability to be objective is making them look ridiculous. Taking the incidents in chronological order: Long's very late dipped shoulder into the side of Williams' face was by some distance the most cynical and deliberate of the evening. A definite red card, and if it weren't for the fact that Williams is made of granite, a probable jaw-breaker. Whelan's elbow into Joe Allen face. Reckless in the extreme and dangerous. A certain red card. Had he received his marching orders the FIFA regulations quoted (point d) above would have meant that he would be facing a 2 match ban. David Meyler at the start of the second half caught Ramsey on the side of the head with the point of his elbow. He got a yellow card, a less lenient ref could have given a red. So at this point ROI should have been down to 9, possibly 8 men. Bale's challenge was reckless, and I wouldn't have complained had he received a red for it. Taylor's challenge was very reckless and I have no complaint about the red card. But it wasn't late at all (both players arrived at the ball simultaneously). The difference is that Coleman played the ball cleanly, whereas Taylor missed it. The point of contact is unclear, but it looks more likely that Coleman connected with Taylor's ankle or lower leg rather than Taylor's studs catching Coleman. The leg break was freakish and extremely unlucky for Coleman for certain. When the outcome is that bad it's hard to complain about a lengthier ban, but a 2 game ban is proportionate when you consider the precise circumstances in detail. Finally, Whelan could easily have been sent off a second time for his raking of Richards' shins. A strict referee would have been entirely justified in sending off 4 Irish players (well, one twice over) and 2 Welsh ones. Mind you, had the ref done his job properly then Wales would have been facing 8 or 9 Irish players for most of the second half - in which case I very much doubt either Bale nor Taylor's tackles would have ever happened.[\b] This is the crux of the matter really and something that hasn't been talked about anywhere near as much as it should have been as everyone has focused so much on the end result which was a horrific injury. When looking at how it got to that point there is a certain amount of cause and effect at work. "Behaviour breeds behaviour" as the saying goes and that very much encapsulates what went on in Dublin. |
|
|
|
Post by irish on Apr 26, 2017 22:01:09 GMT
Have you looked at Long's challenge frame-by-frame irishmufc? Clearly not, but I have, and you can clearly see that not only is he very late, but he clearly (avoidably and intentionally) dips his shoulder into the side of Williams' face. The fact that Williams - who's pretty much indestructible - was laid out, says it all. Once you've watched the coverage as closely as I have irishmufc come back and try telling me that it wasn't a certain red card... Frame by Frame?! You do realize any challenge will look awful if you go frame by frame but real life doesn't work like that. And by the way Bale and Taylor's tackle would look pretty damning being honest in that regard. The tackles should be judged in real time not slow motion or frame by frame as you lose context. Between Long's, Bale's,Whelan's and Taylor's in real time, Taylor's was the immediate one where even our TV coverage wouldn't show it again. It was immediately obvious that it stood out from anything that preceded it before. It's one of those where you wince straight away. Not even Bale's or Whelan's is anywhere near Taylor's as Taylor was not in control once he committed with two feet off the ground. I know this is a Welsh forum but there's a reason tackles like that have to be severely punished. Personally I have no ill-will towards Taylor and didn't care whatever ban he got or gave it any thought being honest. Without trying to sound too kumbaya, I think we can both admit it's impossible to have any objectivity here given our vested interests in both our teams but maybe try and at least have some empathy and pause for thought if the same happened Bale. Coleman is the closest we have to a world class player as Bale is and would've been our number one potentially catastrophic injury. |
|
|
|
Post by manulike on Apr 26, 2017 22:10:36 GMT
... but there is no discussion at all to be had about the seriousness of the injury, every two year old Welshman will have 100% empathy with Coleman.
Today's miscarriage of justice was about the punishment for a tackle. It is not a punishment for the consequence of said tackle.
|
|
|
|
Post by irish on Apr 26, 2017 22:13:35 GMT
I can understand how upset the Irish posters feel about Coleman's injury, been there got the t-shirt. But their inability to be objective is making them look ridiculous. Taking the incidents in chronological order: Long's very late dipped shoulder into the side of Williams' face was by some distance the most cynical and deliberate of the evening. A definite red card, and if it weren't for the fact that Williams is made of granite, a probable jaw-breaker. Whelan's elbow into Joe Allen face. Reckless in the extreme and dangerous. A certain red card. Had he received his marching orders the FIFA regulations quoted (point d) above would have meant that he would be facing a 2 match ban. David Meyler at the start of the second half caught Ramsey on the side of the head with the point of his elbow. He got a yellow card, a less lenient ref could have given a red. So at this point ROI should have been down to 9, possibly 8 men. Bale's challenge was reckless, and I wouldn't have complained had he received a red for it. Taylor's challenge was very reckless and I have no complaint about the red card. But it wasn't late at all (both players arrived at the ball simultaneously). The difference is that Coleman played the ball cleanly, whereas Taylor missed it. The point of contact is unclear, but it looks more likely that Coleman connected with Taylor's ankle or lower leg rather than Taylor's studs catching Coleman. The leg break was freakish and extremely unlucky for Coleman for certain. When the outcome is that bad it's hard to complain about a lengthier ban, but a 2 game ban is proportionate when you consider the precise circumstances in detail. Finally, Whelan could easily have been sent off a second time for his raking of Richards' shins. A strict referee would have been entirely justified in sending off 4 Irish players (well, one twice over) and 2 Welsh ones. Mind you, had the ref done his job properly then Wales would have been facing 8 or 9 Irish players for most of the second half - in which case I very much doubt either Bale nor Taylor's tackles would have ever happened.[\b] This is the crux of the matter really and something that hasn't been talked about anywhere near as much as it should have been as everyone has focused so much on the end result which was a horrific injury. When looking at how it got to that point there is a certain amount of cause and effect at work. "Behaviour breeds behaviour" as the saying goes and that very much encapsulates what went on in Dublin. Being honest I actually agree with this. I knew we had to make this a scrap in Dublin and play to our strengths irrespective of any potential injuries we pay have had and we had 5 probable starters out so it was even more the case. I was surprised to see (from the tv replays especially) late/high challenges from Long/Whelan and obviously Wales responded in kind in the second half. My own take on it given the injury list was O'Neill had this more of a must not lose than win and when the injuries came in, that was that. Because Wales have Bale and despite our great win in Austria, O'Neill was fearful of this home game given the derby nature and to lose it would've been a disaster. It's a Pyrrhic victory for us given our best player in his position and captain is out for the foreseeable future despite not losing points at home to our rival who needed the win more. |
|
|
|
Post by alarch on Apr 26, 2017 22:16:44 GMT
The point about watching Long's challenge frame-by-frame is that only then can you clearly see that he dipped his shoulder into the side of Williams' face. Arguing that this is irrelevant is ludicrous - as the evidence is as clear as daylight that Long intended to clear Williams out. As for the Taylor incident, the fact that the TV coverage refused to show the coverage owed everything to the horrendous nature of the leg break. I've looked at the incident several times, and what led to the leg break was Coleman making contact with the ball and Taylor's outstretched leg simultaneously. That doesn't excuse Taylor - because he had a duty of care to make sure that he made a clean contact with the ball - but if you have any regard for the evidence of what actually happened you would have to acknowledge that freakish bad luck played as big a part in the outcome as Taylor's recklessness.
If it's empathy you want I don't think you'll find that's in short supply. Quite apart from being an excellent footballer, he comes across as a really decent bloke. If we were in the same position as the Irish (as we were with the Ramsey leg break) we would be angry and frustrated too for sure. But that doesn't change reality - which is a lot more nuanced than most Irish posters on this site seem capable of acknowledging.
|
|
|
|
Post by irish on Apr 26, 2017 22:34:57 GMT
The point about watching Long's challenge frame-by-frame is that only then can you clearly see that he dipped his shoulder into the side of Williams' face. Arguing that this is irrelevant is ludicrous - as the evidence is as clear as daylight that Long intended to clear Williams out. As for the Taylor incident, the fact that the TV coverage refused to show the coverage owed everything to the horrendous nature of the leg break. I've looked at the incident several times, and what led to the leg break was Coleman making contact with the ball and Taylor's outstretched leg simultaneously. That doesn't excuse Taylor - because he had a duty of care to make sure that he made a clean contact with the ball - but if you have any regard for the evidence of what actually happened you would have to acknowledge that freakish bad luck played as big a part in the outcome as Taylor's recklessness.
If it's empathy you want I don't think you'll find that's in short supply. Quite apart from being an excellent footballer, he comes across as a really decent bloke. If we were in the same position as the Irish (as we were with the Ramsey leg break) we would be angry and frustrated too for sure. But that doesn't change reality - which is a lot more nuanced than most Irish posters on this site seem capable of acknowledging. I admire your articulate point though I'd be curious to know how you can actually measure a bad luck/recklessness ratio? |
|
|
|
Post by alarch on Apr 26, 2017 22:52:27 GMT
You can't, it's a subjective thing. But, if you can make yourself look at the footage (video and still images) online, you'll find it hard to disagree with anything I've said.
|
|
|
|
Post by CrackityJones on Mar 6, 2018 19:29:42 GMT
Gonna have to eat some humble pie here. After laying into Taylor's long term lack of form and gametime on the Dummett thread, he's only gone and earned a recall...starting for Villa tonight for the first time in ages.
Hopefully this is step toward him regaining some pre-Euros solidity and not just coz Hutton is injured.
|
|
|
|
Post by welshiron on Mar 7, 2018 7:54:07 GMT
The fact that Alan Hutton has been selected ahead of him out of position should worry anyone
His lunge on Long hampered our qualifying chances and he almost cost us by giving away a penalty in Andorra.
Personally never been a big fan but still worthy of being in the squad although he wouldn't make my starting 11.
|
|
|
|
Post by cymroircarn on Mar 7, 2018 8:51:36 GMT
This made me chuckle ๐ How times have changed! |
|
|
|
Post by manulike on Mar 7, 2018 12:42:43 GMT
This made me chuckle ๐ How times have changed! Chuckle all you like, but the joy he gave me in Toulouse will always carry credit in my books :+) |
|
|
|
Post by cymroircarn on Mar 7, 2018 18:52:17 GMT
This made me chuckle ๐ How times have changed! Chuckle all you like, but the joy he gave me in Toulouse will always carry credit in my books :+) Same with me, but it just shows how quickly football can change when heโs gone from being scouted by the top 4 to benchwarming at the Championship |
|
|
|
Post by cadno on Mar 7, 2018 19:08:51 GMT
He played well last night. He's a better option than Dummett IMO.
|
|
