Sam Vokes

[Deleted]

Sept 30, 2013 15:12:14 GMT welshiron said:

Alarch, the other cases listed have all been overturned and I don't personally have great faith in the legal system, for me it seems to favour the criminal and not the victim.

There was also evidence of evidence being tampered with and witness statements altered, there appears to be none of this in Ched's case.

The fact is he has been convicted of rape.

Unless we were in court and privy to all the evidence then how can we be so certain that Ched is innocent?

They don't just lock accused rapists up at the drop of a hat, at least not at the moment they don't! The likes of Harriet Hartman and Louise mensch would love to see any man accused of rape be thrown in jail on the basis of the most circumstantial evidence just to get the stats up. They talk like it doesn't matter which man pays for it as long as someone does. Thankfully though, those days are not here (yet) and we still live in a society that would rather a guilty man walk free than an innocent man go to jail so the burden is very much on the prosecution to prove guilt. Given how previous rape cases have been thrown out for lack of evidence I am pretty confident that the right decision was reached in this case and that enough proof was presented that proved consent was given to McDonald but not Ched.

[alarch]

I would really like to hear what evidence you have read, storm, that would suggest that the complainant/victim withheld her consent to Ched. If such evidence was in the public domain, then I would be much more inclined to consider that the sentence was fair - but I'm completely unaware of any such evidence. I doubt very much that it exists either, as the prosecution would have made it a central pillar of their case, and the press would certainly have picked up on it. It seems pretty certain that Evans was convicted on the basis of the conclusion that the complainant/victim was unable to consent owing to her intoxicated state.

If you start with the assumption that the jury made a just decision in deciding that the complainant/victim was too drunk to consent, there is still the question (which you've ignored storm) of whether 5 years and a life-time tag of rapist is a proportionate sentence. In my opinion it is not, given that this is a grey area, where responsibility doesn't lie entirely with the "assailant". The criminal justice system should reflect nuances such as these, not lump together significantly different acts as a single entity.

The irony of your arguments re Harriet Harman is that I have seen precisely those arguments being used as a basis for concluding that the days when "it doesn't matter which man pays for it as long as someone does" have already arrived - in exact contradiction to your belief. That the same evidence can be put forward to justify opposite conclusions just shows how subjective this area is. My view is that Evans' case has raised the question as to whether, in cases such as these, the onus is on the defence to prove that the complainant/victim had the ability to consent, rather that on the prosecution to prove to the contrary. If this is representative of what is happening in general, this could well mark a dangerous shift from a central tenet of justice, namely presumed innocence.

[matty]

Has anyone taken time to read Ched's website?
www.chedevans.com

[welshiron]

I did Matty and it makes a compelling argument.

However, I would guess that a website from the victim would probably do the same.

None of us know if he is innocent.

[llannerch]

We've been over all of this before and it polarised opinion then (whether you have a daughter or not....). He's in jail and in footballing terms whether he should or shouldn't be there is, frankly, immaterial. Vokes is the only logical choice to play the lone man. He's been criticised for not scoring enough previously and to be fair to him he's answering that criticism in the best way possible.

[matty]

Oct 1, 2013 11:53:13 GMT welshiron said:

I did Matty and it makes a compelling argument.

However, I would guess that a website from the victim would probably do the same.

None of us know if he is innocent.

I agree which is why I purposely didn't give my opinion, I just asked whether people knew the site existed. It does make interesting reading but of course it is skewed to favour Evans.

[alarch]

In many ways the website doesn't do Ched any favours, by giving a completely unrealistic portrayal of him, that encourages a cynical response. But some of the evidence on the website, which one can judge for yourself, certainly puts a different slant on things.

But as Llanerch rightly points out, Vokes is putting a strong case for being the main man, for now, and who knows, for a long time going forward.

[Baxter Cymru]

Sam Vokes on the scoresheet again, he now has 7 goals this season!!!

[squatter1]

Vokes is joining the list of players first choice on our team sheet for their position at this rate.

[abwales]

unfortunately that doesn't say much.

[welshiron]

Only 4 certain starters if everyone fit

Williams
Bale
Ramsey
Davies

Although I would personally add

Allen
Collins
Bellamy

[squatter1]

Nah, got to be seven certain starters when all fit:
Bale, Ramsey, Williams, Allen, Collins, Joniesta, Davies. The first six of those we can't really live without.

Bellers has had it.

[welshiron]

Not totally convinced that Joniesta would be a certain starter and as things stand Collins isn't and Allen hasn't played for a while.

Certain starters if fit for Macedonia

Gabbidon
Davies
Ramsey
Bale
Bellamy
Allen
Vokes

That leaves a centre half which should be Collins (but probably Rickets)

a right back probably Gunter (possibly Matthews or even Taylor or Dummett)

1 midfielders Ledley, Collison , Vaughan, Robson-kanu, King or Crofts

and a Goalie probably Myhill

Although if Bale and Allen are missing we will need 3 of them

[Deleted]

Oct 2, 2013 11:04:08 GMT welshiron said:

Not totally convinced that Joniesta would be a certain starter and as things stand Collins isn't and Allen hasn't played for a while.

Certain starters if fit for Macedonia

Gabbidon
Davies
Ramsey
Bale
Bellamy
Allen
Vokes

That leaves a centre half which should be Collins (but probably Rickets)

a right back probably Gunter (possibly Matthews or even Taylor or Dummett)

1 midfielders Ledley, Collison , Vaughan, Robson-kanu, King or Crofts

and a Goalie probably Myhill

Although if Bale and Allen are missing we will need 3 of them

[Baxter Cymru]

Back to Ched Evans a moment, i just watched ITV Wales news and his family have put an advert in the paper for more witnesses ect to come forward, they have also hired a private investigator to re-look at all of the evidence.

Also not sure if its my computer or not but the Ched Evans website where you can look at the case in what is maybe a one sided bunch of views has closed down or been deleted.

[squatter1]

Vokes must start these next matches.

Or will Coleman look to his regular picks to show some loyalty and dig him out? If he plays Bellers up front I will be fuming.

And on Joniesta, for me he is a nailed-on start for me from now on. We lack attacking midfielders/wide men and he can do that for us.

[biwmares]

Oct 3, 2013 17:09:38 GMT Baxter Cymru said:

Back to Ched Evans a moment, i just watched ITV Wales news and his family have put an advert in the paper for more witnesses ect to come forward, they have also hired a private investigator to re-look at all of the evidence.

Also not sure if its my computer or not but the Ched Evans website where you can look at the case in what is maybe a one sided bunch of views has closed down or been deleted.

This is the link for the full page advert in the Daily Post

www.dailypost.co.uk/news/local-news/witness-appeal-after-ched-evans-6133278

[hookd]

Vokes scored again today.

Its a no brainer - he has to start on Friday. Surely Coleman picks him

TBH - I am starting to wonder on Bellamy nowadays - his game seems to have dropped off dramatically over the last year or so. I therefore do not think his retirement after the end of the current campaign is a big blow to the team and wonder if everyone were fit, whether he should even start.

Nevertheless Bellamy is one guy who can look himself in the mirror with pride - he always gives 100% and has never let Wales down!

[northerndragon]

Oct 5, 2013 17:21:21 GMT hookd said:

Vokes scored again today.

Its a no brainer - he has to start on Friday. Surely Coleman picks him

TBH - I am starting to wonder on Bellamy nowadays - his game seems to have dropped off dramatically over the last year or so. I therefore do not think his retirement after the end of the current campaign is a big blow to the team and wonder if everyone were fit, whether he should even start.

Nevertheless Bellamy is one guy who can look himself in the mirror with pride - he always gives 100% and has never let Wales down!

One of the best things is Vokes has scored his last few goals with his boot rather than his head, we've always known he was an aerial threat but now he is developing his game and scoring constantly with his feet. He's the 3rd highest scorer in the Championship with 8 goals, just one goal behind two other players who have 9. If he carries on like this he will be considered one of the hottest prospects in the Championship by the end of the season. He's scored more for Burnley than Danny Ings who some people are suggesting should be called up by England (not that I agree with that).

[marsvolta]

Sept 30, 2013 15:12:14 GMT welshiron said:

Alarch, the other cases listed have all been overturned and I don't personally have great faith in the legal system, for me it seems to favour the criminal and not the victim.

There was also evidence of evidence being tampered with and witness statements altered, there appears to be none of this in Ched's case.

The fact is he has been convicted of rape.

A manager who commits suicide, a striker in jail for rape, we don't make things easy for ourselves in Wales.

[hookd]

Oct 5, 2013 19:33:21 GMT northerndragon said:

Oct 5, 2013 17:21:21 GMT hookd said:

Vokes scored again today.

Its a no brainer - he has to start on Friday. Surely Coleman picks him

TBH - I am starting to wonder on Bellamy nowadays - his game seems to have dropped off dramatically over the last year or so. I therefore do not think his retirement after the end of the current campaign is a big blow to the team and wonder if everyone were fit, whether he should even start.

Nevertheless Bellamy is one guy who can look himself in the mirror with pride - he always gives 100% and has never let Wales down!

One of the best things is Vokes has scored his last few goals with his boot rather than his head, we've always known he was an aerial threat but now he is developing his game and scoring constantly with his feet. He's the 3rd highest scorer in the Championship with 8 goals, just one goal behind two other players who have 9. If he carries on like this he will be considered one of the hottest prospects in the Championship by the end of the season. He's scored more for Burnley than Danny Ings who some people are suggesting should be called up by England (not that I agree with that).

Very good point. When I see he scores, the first thing I look for is whether its with his head or feet! He makes sense to give us a more direct option, especially when we get Bale and Williams back in the team. He always looked the part for our U21s. He will never be a top Premier league player but can definitely do a job if he continues to develop

[Deleted]

Oct 6, 2013 9:09:29 GMT hookd said:

Oct 5, 2013 19:33:21 GMT northerndragon said:

One of the best things is Vokes has scored his last few goals with his boot rather than his head, we've always known he was an aerial threat but now he is developing his game and scoring constantly with his feet. He's the 3rd highest scorer in the Championship with 8 goals, just one goal behind two other players who have 9. If he carries on like this he will be considered one of the hottest prospects in the Championship by the end of the season. He's scored more for Burnley than Danny Ings who some people are suggesting should be called up by England (not that I agree with that).

Very good point. When I see he scores, the first thing I look for is whether its with his head or feet! He makes sense to give us a more direct option, especially when we get Bale and Williams back in the team. He always looked the part for our U21s. He will never be a top Premier league player but can definitely do a job if he continues to develop

Maybe he will become a prolific goal scorer in the premier league like Rickie Lambert? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rickie_Lambert

He's still only 23 years old, 8 goals this season with 1 behind the 2 top goalscorers is impressive. Hopefully he's going to keep this form up throughout the season and we'll finally have a good young option up front!!

In the future we'll also have Jake Cassidy and Ched Evans as other good options too.

[welshiron]

So who will play up front now and why hasn't Morison or even Earnshaw been called up

Options

Bellamy
Robson-Kanu
Church
Easter


I would try Robson-Kanu with either Isgrove, OTJ or Cotterill coming into midfield

Also increases the chance of Wilson becoming our youngest ever player

[texan]

Isgrove...in the games I've seen him in he plays in a confident, almost arrogant way, the lad has no fear of the opposition, just head down and goes at them. And he's got one hell of an armoury of tricks as well, never giving up, twisting and turning until he passes his man, if he loses it he'll hunt him down and (try to) win it back.

Not exactly a Joniesta yet, but I think he could make a few people sit up and take notice if he comes on, I hope he gets some minutes, eager to see how he copes in a full international.

[hookd]

We do have some luck don't we? We finally get a striker in very good form and he gets injured ahead of the one match we have a chance of winning!

[squatter1]

Under the circumstances, losing Vokes is as big a blow as losing Allen/Ledley/Matthews/Davies etc.

With an unfamiliar and inexperienced team Vokes gave us a reassuring simplicity: there's a big target man in form, we just have to get it up to him in front of goal and hopefully he'll score.

Now it will be something like: there's Craig Bellamy, he's going to drop really deep all team time and play short passes, not really sure how were gonna get a goal.

[alarch]

Is there anyone who thinks that Ched's crime merited exactly the same length of sentence as this: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-24674724 ??

[dai]

Oct 25, 2013 16:17:23 GMT alarch said:

Is there anyone who thinks that Ched's crime merited exactly the same length of sentence as this: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-24674724 ??

It's a mad world we live in. Saw this on the news, can't believe he's only got 5 years. 

[matty]

Nice to see Vokes in the new kit photos alongside Bale and Ramsey, not that Wales Online seemed to notice he was there though.
www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/revealed-aaron-ramsey-gareth-bale-6274500

[Deleted]

Another 2 today and 14 in the championship so far this season.

Lets hope he keeps on this trajectory.