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Post by alarch on Sept 25, 2013 13:29:07 GMT
Another interesting article on the BBC site yesterday about the Mboyo case: www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/24064975Will Ched be eligible to go on day-release in the months leading up to his release? Its possible he may be up to speed by the end of next year, so could feature in our next qualification campaign. |
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Post by alarch on Sept 25, 2013 13:31:04 GMT
What I like about Vokes is that he gives a proper shape to our side, with other players slotting in to their optimal positions (e.g. Bellamy on the flank). He's a round peg in round hole solution, and the best we've got in that regard, regardless of his individual quality.
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Post by welshiron on Sept 25, 2013 14:27:44 GMT
Here'S another one, from the weekend: 'Vokes 10 - I dont give a 10 lightly, but that was the complete target man performance. Bullied the Leeds defence, ran down the keeper, held play up, showed a fantastic first touch throughout, and, what about that header? He got such power and direction behind it that it forced Kenny to parry, and there he was following up to slam it in - just like a proper centre forward should do. Need to get his contract extended pronto, he is the lynchpin of this team' Not sure I want him anywhere near our national team unless his conviction is quashed. Also, on playing ability alone he is no Ian Rush or Mark Hughes, no better than Vokes for me. |
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Post by squatter1 on Sept 25, 2013 15:14:40 GMT
What I like about Vokes is that he gives a proper shape to our side, with other players slotting in to their optimal positions (e.g. Bellamy on the flank). He's a round peg in round hole solution, and the best we've got in that regard, regardless of his individual quality. Bang on. |
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Post by squatter1 on Sept 25, 2013 15:43:39 GMT
What I like about Vokes is that he gives a proper shape to our side, with other players slotting in to their optimal positions (e.g. Bellamy on the flank). He's a round peg in round hole solution, and the best we've got in that regard, regardless of his individual quality. Bang on. Agreed. Imagining that a striker who spent the last three years of his professional football life dropping down a division each year until he found his level in League 1 is going to be the answer to our prayers after spending several years in jail and out of the game is irrational, blind faith. Vokes is scoring regularly at a higher level than Evans was, so he's currently our best way forward. |
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Post by alarch on Sept 25, 2013 18:48:47 GMT
Evans is definitely the better player. He only ended up in League 1 because he made an unwise choice (not his last!) in joining a hoofball team in Sheffield United. He is a class above the other options, and if he has the bottle to face up to the inevitable hoohah on him resuming his career, then he is our best long-term candidate for the lone striker's role. Vokes is just keeping the seat warm as far as I'm concerned, but I'd be happy to proven wrong.
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Post by welshiron on Sept 26, 2013 10:21:38 GMT
Evans is definitely the better player. He only ended up in League 1 because he made an unwise choice (not his last!) in joining a hoofball team in Sheffield United. He is a class above the other options, and if he has the bottle to face up to the inevitable hoohah on him resuming his career, then he is our best long-term candidate for the lone striker's role. Vokes is just keeping the seat warm as far as I'm concerned, but I'd be happy to proven wrong. Will you (and others) be happy to see Ched pull on a welsh shirt again. I've thought about this and Don't personally think he should represent his country unless he has his name cleared. |
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Post by squatter1 on Sept 26, 2013 12:12:15 GMT
Ched Evans played in the Championship for Sheff United under Gary Speed when they were anything but a hoofball team, and didn't cut it.
Speed - who worked with Evans at Utd - didn't play Evans much for Wales, preferring Vokes and Morrison.
Ched Evans has only proved himself at one level of football: League 1. He had chances to prove himself at Premier and Championship levels but failed. On top of this he is in prison for rape. Clinging on to the hope that he is better than Vokes and will come and rescue us at some point is, I suppose, testimony to the power of the human spirit in adversity.
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Post by alarch on Sept 26, 2013 15:47:28 GMT
Ched was coming good for Sheff Utd under Speed - but then Wales came calling, and Sheff Utd reverted to hoofball, which led to their relegation (Evans was still top-scorer). So to say he couldn't cut it at Championship level is plain wrong. The fact he came good again in League 1 was as much down to the more sophisticated style of play under Danny Wilson. The bottom line is Ched showed his class for the Under 21s, and I've seen enough of his ability since then to suggest he can be a great asset to Wales in the future. Hopefully, Vokes will push on and offer some competition, but assuming Evans can get back to where he was then my judgement call is that he will be the main man for us. This was the stance I took with Ramsey when all around were doubting him, and also the stance I take with Allen. Class will out. In Ched's case there is the additional problem of adapting physically to the rigours of professional football for sure, but the big question mark is psychological. If he's strong enough mentally his time in prison could be a catalyst for him to make sure he makes the most of his undoubted (in my mind anyway) talent. Time will tell.
I have no problem with Evans pulling on a Welsh shirt again, as he will have served his time, and that's the only thing that should matter, unless you believe that populist sentiment should take over once the criminal justice system has exacted its price. On top of that I happen to believe that Evans has probably suffered a miscarriage of justice, possibly in the absolute sense that he committed no crime at all, but very probably in the sense that his sentence way exceeded the crime he was found guilty of. There is a very strong case for a sentence of "sexual exploitation" in cases such as these, because to bracket his actions with those of someone forcing themselves sexually on a person who clearly objects or is in no position to object (e.g. asleep or comatose) is disproportionate, and owes more to our right-wing political culture, where politicians of all hues are desperate to appease the pseudo-morality of the press. In other countries, there is a more rational, nuanced approach to these matters, but then again what do we have to learn from Johnny Foreigner?
The only slight doubt I have is that there is a tiny possibility that the jury heard evidence that was not reported on, indicating that the victim/complainant (take your pick) resisted his advances. This seems extremely unlikely, as the press would undoubtedly have given a lot of attention to such evidence, and its hard to see how the prosecution wouldn't have made it a major pillar of their case. However, in the unlikely event that this was the case then his sentence would have been justified. What I am sure of is that justice wasn't seen to be done - because there's a mismatch between the sentence and the evidential basis of the conviction as reported.
Out of interest, if Evans continues to claim his innocence, is this likely to impact adversely on his release date?
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Post by welshiron on Sept 26, 2013 16:25:08 GMT
Hi Alarch
I agree that when he has done his time he has every right to make a living and if he is innocent one can only hope that he someday will clear his name.
At present he is in prison for a reason, and as a man with 3 daughters unless his conviction was quashed I would not personally want him in a welsh shirt.
As for playing ability, I don't think you can compare him with Ramsey or Alen as both have these had proved their ability prior to their respective bad spells.
He would on what he has shown previously be challenging Vokes for a starting role but Vokes may be better suited to playing the loan striker role
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Post by llannerch on Sept 26, 2013 19:11:45 GMT
The comments from Burnley fans about him bullying the opposition remind me of his performance as a raw 18 year old in Moscow. He's a better choice than Davies, Morison, Earnshaw and Bellamy playing up there. Cassidy and others are too young. Evans is the better, more versatile and mobile player and if all things were equal I'd pick him ahead of Vokes. But they aren't
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2013 22:08:22 GMT
The comments from Burnley fans about him bullying the opposition remind me of his performance as a raw 18 year old in Moscow. He's a better choice than Davies, Morison, Earnshaw and Bellamy playing up there. Cassidy and others are too young. Evans is the better, more versatile and mobile player and if all things were equal I'd pick him ahead of Vokes. But they aren't Spot on Llannerch. |
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Post by flynnfan on Sept 27, 2013 12:11:21 GMT
Ched was coming good for Sheff Utd under Speed - but then Wales came calling, and Sheff Utd reverted to hoofball, which led to their relegation (Evans was still top-scorer). So to say he couldn't cut it at Championship level is plain wrong. The fact he came good again in League 1 was as much down to the more sophisticated style of play under Danny Wilson. The bottom line is Ched showed his class for the Under 21s, and I've seen enough of his ability since then to suggest he can be a great asset to Wales in the future. Hopefully, Vokes will push on and offer some competition, but assuming Evans can get back to where he was then my judgement call is that he will be the main man for us. This was the stance I took with Ramsey when all around were doubting him, and also the stance I take with Allen. Class will out. In Ched's case there is the additional problem of adapting physically to the rigours of professional football for sure, but the big question mark is psychological. If he's strong enough mentally his time in prison could be a catalyst for him to make sure he makes the most of his undoubted (in my mind anyway) talent. Time will tell. I have no problem with Evans pulling on a Welsh shirt again, as he will have served his time, and that's the only thing that should matter, unless you believe that populist sentiment should take over once the criminal justice system has exacted its price. On top of that I happen to believe that Evans has probably suffered a miscarriage of justice, possibly in the absolute sense that he committed no crime at all, but very probably in the sense that his sentence way exceeded the crime he was found guilty of. There is a very strong case for a sentence of "sexual exploitation" in cases such as these, because to bracket his actions with those of someone forcing themselves sexually on a person who clearly objects or is in no position to object (e.g. asleep or comatose) is disproportionate, and owes more to our right-wing political culture, where politicians of all hues are desperate to appease the pseudo-morality of the press. In other countries, there is a more rational, nuanced approach to these matters, but then again what do we have to learn from Johnny Foreigner? The only slight doubt I have is that there is a tiny possibility that the jury heard evidence that was not reported on, indicating that the victim/complainant (take your pick) resisted his advances. This seems extremely unlikely, as the press would undoubtedly have given a lot of attention to such evidence, and its hard to see how the prosecution wouldn't have made it a major pillar of their case. However, in the unlikely event that this was the case then his sentence would have been justified. What I am sure of is that justice wasn't seen to be done - because there's a mismatch between the sentence and the evidential basis of the conviction as reported. Out of interest, if Evans continues to claim his innocence, is this likely to impact adversely on his release date? Excellent post. I 100% agree with all football and legal points. |
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Post by Tim P on Sept 27, 2013 15:53:39 GMT
At present he is in prison for a reason, and as a man with 3 daughters unless his conviction was quashed I would not personally want him in a welsh shirt. This implies that if you didn't have three daughters (or, presumably, one daughter) your opinion might be different. That's why in civilised countries, families of murdered people don't get to express their preference for the death sentence. It's not logical. When his sentence is completed he is entitled to continue his life as normal. If he is able to get his career back on track and represent his country it will be a testament to our sophistication as a progressive nation. |
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Post by welshiron on Sept 27, 2013 16:03:04 GMT
At present he is in prison for a reason, and as a man with 3 daughters unless his conviction was quashed I would not personally want him in a welsh shirt. This implies that if you didn't have three daughters (or, presumably, one daughter) your opinion might be different. That's why in civilised countries, families of murdered people don't get to express their preference for the death sentence. It's not logical. When his sentence is completed he is entitled to continue his life as normal. If he is able to get his career back on track and represent his country it will be a testament to our sophistication as a progressive nation. If you ever become a father your views might change, but there will be a lot of parents who will object to someone representing his country having been convicted of such a crime. I don't object to him making a living but will not me alone in my thinking that representing his country will be a step to far. I also know how difficult it can be for a victim to secure a conviction for a sexual offence and the courts are weighted towards the defence |
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Post by alarch on Sept 27, 2013 16:06:46 GMT
Well put TP. Having read the BBC article on the consequences of the uproar over Mboyo's past - i.e. termination of football prison programs, it's not hard to see how easy it is to have a retrograde outcome to the sort of Pavlovian hue and cry over these sort of crimes. It saddens me greatly that the Old Testament morality of the States seems to infect thinking in the UK and elsewhere.
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Sam Vokes
Sept 28, 2013 15:58:52 GMT
via mobile
Post by Baxter Cymru on Sept 28, 2013 15:58:52 GMT
Sam Vokes scored another two goals today, has to be our first choice number 9 now!
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Post by abwales on Sept 28, 2013 17:58:04 GMT
Any decent manager would be able to get goals out of him, even at international level. Shame we don't have a decent manager.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2013 10:33:05 GMT
Any decent manager would be able to get goals out of him, even at international level. Shame we don't have a decent manager. Good one!! |
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Post by abwales on Sept 29, 2013 13:00:27 GMT
He managed to get 1 goal out of him. WELL DONE COLEMAN!!!!!!! HAND HIM ANOTHER 2 YEAR CONTRACT FOR THAT!!!!!
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Post by toshfan on Sept 29, 2013 13:09:26 GMT
'Another 90 minutes of bullying an opposition defence for little personal reward, but immense use to the team' ------ 'Great hold up play and bullied them non-stop' ------ There's a couple of comments about Vokes performance last night for Burnley on one of their message boards.. I don't think Vokes will ever be a prolific goalscorer, but there's more to his game than that. Another comment I heard this week is that Vokes and Ings for Burnley resemble Toshack and Keegan a wee bit... Toshack only got 12 goals for Wales (in 40 games) I reckon Vokes will score more. Toshack had a lot of time for Vokes. That alone is good enough for me. In addition, he is underrated and never let Wales down. Get the impression that the players like and rate him. That matters! |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2013 14:06:30 GMT
He managed to get 1 goal out of him. WELL DONE COLEMAN!!!!!!! HAND HIM ANOTHER 2 YEAR CONTRACT FOR THAT!!!!! Nice to see you put everything into perspective  |
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Post by welshiron on Sept 30, 2013 8:43:03 GMT
He is by far our best option for the number 9 shirt at present
I was all for playing Bellamy up front, but it hasn't worked so it's Vokes for me
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Post by welshiron on Sept 30, 2013 8:50:36 GMT
Well put TP. Having read the BBC article on the consequences of the uproar over Mboyo's past - i.e. termination of football prison programs, it's not hard to see how easy it is to have a retrograde outcome to the sort of Pavlovian hue and cry over these sort of crimes. It saddens me greatly that the Old Testament morality of the States seems to infect thinking in the UK and elsewhere. My thinking is not influenced by anyone else, however the man has been convicted of a horrendous crime. I have already stated that he should be allowed to make a living from football but to see him pull on a welsh shirt with people chanting his name like he is a hero will be too much for me personally. Probably only 2 people know if he is guilty and if he is innocent I really hope he is able to prove it. Why has he been refused a right to appeal twice? |
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Post by evans1282 on Sept 30, 2013 9:39:24 GMT
sparky I respect your views on this ,I too have two daughters but my views differ .The right to appeal relies on there being significant new evidence or a technical or procedural error, this does not in any way mean the verdict is sound ,only that the trial had no significant mistakes. Personally my opinion is that Ched was guilty of being a pampered misogynistic arse but no more .
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Post by dai on Sept 30, 2013 10:03:37 GMT
Whats all this talk about Evans' release? He was jailed last year for 5 years, so a bit puzzled why there's even mention of him nowadays. Have I missed something, is he getting an early release or something?
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Post by welshiron on Sept 30, 2013 10:20:16 GMT
The problem is our opinions count for nothing, only the jury that convicted him beyond reasonable doubt.
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Post by abwales on Sept 30, 2013 11:40:54 GMT
5 years aka 2 and a half years and he has already served a year and a half. He's only a year away from release, which will only be 3 or 4 games into the next campaign with the next game coming in 2015. Obviously he won't be back as soon as he's released, although I do think he'll easily get a club. He's worth discussing with this campaign already over and his possible inclusion in the next campaign.
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Post by alarch on Sept 30, 2013 11:42:11 GMT
You're absolutely right, welshiron, our opinion counts for nothing in this matter. Neither did public opinion matter in relation to the Guildford four, Maguire seven or Cardiff three. Any miscarriage of justice suffered by Ched would be minor in relation to these cases, but they do serve as a reminder that a blind faith in the British justice system is naive. Especially given what we know of Ched's case.
The earliest Ched is likely to be permanently released is autumn of next year, although I'm guessing he may be able to go on day-release to train with a prospective team before then. In any event, he's unlikely to be able to contribute to the Wales team before the start of the season after next. Still, that would still enable him to contribute to our efforts in the Euro qualifying campaign.
Out of interest, for Ched to secure a release at the earlies opportunity, does anyone know if he has to "admit" his guilt, and express contrition? Because I seem to recall that this has been an issue with people who have been adamant about their innocence in the past. Do you own up to a crime you haven't committed to secure early release, or do you take the pragmatic choice, to get out early?
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Post by welshiron on Sept 30, 2013 15:12:14 GMT
Alarch, the other cases listed have all been overturned and I don't personally have great faith in the legal system, for me it seems to favour the criminal and not the victim.
There was also evidence of evidence being tampered with and witness statements altered, there appears to be none of this in Ched's case.
The fact is he has been convicted of rape.
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