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Post by conwy10 on Nov 21, 2023 9:41:48 GMT
You absolutely should have a replacement in mind if you're suggesting sacking Page because otherwise you come across as a child throwing toys out of the pram. No one is saying you have to go out and do the appointing, but if you're going to call for a sacking you should have an idea of what the implications would be for that in my opinion If you don't then you don't want Page sacked, you just want to vent Sorry, I disagree entirely. You reckon it’s the fans task to select the next manager ? Nonsense. The FAW should be ruthlessly ambitious and any manager that doesn’t achieve qualification should be deemed to have failed in his job. Page’s World Cup selections, tactics and performances were woeful. We’ve carried on without improvement from there. I’m 100% confident that a better manager would get a far superior performance from the squad we have available. Accepting failure on the “good bloke” basis, is totally amateur football. Whoever manages us should be tasked with achieving success over a given period. Page has failed. I agree that he comes over as a “good bloke” but I want us to demand success from players and manager alike. No more acceptance of “plucky old Wales” just failing. Nice wins nothing. P.S. please don’t call me a child again because I disagree with you ! We definitely have the players who should have got us qualification from this group. I’ll say it again, Armenia away and Turkiye at home were the easiest play-off fixtures available to us. Getting to the actual play offs is not a success. I despair if we head into them with Page still in charge. Vault me if I’m proved wrong. Good way of looking at it, Armenia away and Turkey home in a playoff, you'd back us to get the job done. Now we're looking at possibly Ukraine home and Poland away. Much more difficult. We'll need the atmosphere in the camp to be really good to pull that off. |
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Post by CrackityJones on Nov 21, 2023 10:20:45 GMT
Gotta chime in, no way is a home game against Ukraine preferable to one against Turkey. They are probably the form team in Europe right now and they were the 4th seeds in our group. Rotten luck that, it’s no excuse but we will do very well to beat them tonight.
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Post by njdragon on Nov 21, 2023 10:36:38 GMT
Sorry, I disagree entirely. You reckon it’s the fans task to select the next manager ? Nonsense. The FAW should be ruthlessly ambitious and any manager that doesn’t achieve qualification should be deemed to have failed in his job. Page’s World Cup selections, tactics and performances were woeful. We’ve carried on without improvement from there. I’m 100% confident that a better manager would get a far superior performance from the squad we have available. Accepting failure on the “good bloke” basis, is totally amateur football. Whoever manages us should be tasked with achieving success over a given period. Page has failed. I agree that he comes over as a “good bloke” but I want us to demand success from players and manager alike. No more acceptance of “plucky old Wales” just failing. Nice wins nothing. P.S. please don’t call me a child again because I disagree with you ! We definitely have the players who should have got us qualification from this group. I’ll say it again, Armenia away and Turkiye at home were the easiest play-off fixtures available to us. Getting to the actual play offs is not a success. I despair if we head into them with Page still in charge. Vault me if I’m proved wrong. Good way of looking at it, Armenia away and Turkey home in a playoff, you'd back us to get the job done. Now we're looking at possibly Ukraine home and Poland away. Much more difficult. We'll need the atmosphere in the camp to be really good to pull that off. Hang on Ukraine is the worst of the potential playoffs. Turkey are on form |
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Post by fiveattheback on Nov 21, 2023 10:59:24 GMT
Gotta chime in, no way is a home game against Ukraine preferable to one against Turkey. They are probably the form team in Europe right now and they were the 4th seeds in our group. Rotten luck that, it’s no excuse but we will do very well to beat them tonight. I think the point is that as a package you'd rather Armenia away and Turkey home than Ukraine home and Poland away to qualify for the Euros. |
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Post by njdragon on Nov 21, 2023 11:15:34 GMT
Gotta chime in, no way is a home game against Ukraine preferable to one against Turkey. They are probably the form team in Europe right now and they were the 4th seeds in our group. Rotten luck that, it’s no excuse but we will do very well to beat them tonight. I think the point is that as a package you'd rather Armenia away and Turkey home than Ukraine home and Poland away to qualify for the Euros. But Ukraine and Poland are the worst of the potential play offs are they not? Isn’t there, Finland, Iceland and Estonia in the mix, all which are far easier |
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Post by fiveattheback on Nov 21, 2023 11:24:28 GMT
I think the point is that as a package you'd rather Armenia away and Turkey home than Ukraine home and Poland away to qualify for the Euros. But Ukraine and Poland are the worst of the potential play offs are they not? Isn’t there, Finland, Iceland and Estonia in the mix, all which are far easier Yeah, it's a three way shot we get one of Finland, Iceland and Ukraine in the semi and then the winner of Poland-Estonia in the final (should we get there). I think. I think they were making the point that the toughest playoff is harder than our group which is reasonable. I think any playoff is tougher than qualifying through the group for the simple fact it's two more high pressure competitive fixtures close together, regardless of who you play (unless it's San Marino or someone!) |
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Post by aberbeeg on Nov 21, 2023 12:10:24 GMT
With Page at the helm we can forget about any play off success that is almost nailed on!!
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Post by iot on Nov 21, 2023 12:16:30 GMT
Gotta chime in, no way is a home game against Ukraine preferable to one against Turkey. They are probably the form team in Europe right now and they were the 4th seeds in our group. Rotten luck that, it’s no excuse but we will do very well to beat them tonight. I think the point is that as a package you'd rather Armenia away and Turkey home than Ukraine home and Poland away to qualify for the Euros. These comments always miss the point that the need to get three points is much more difficult than winning a knockout game. So having to beat Armenia and Turkey in real time within three days is arguably more difficult than one of Iceland/Finland/Ukraine followed by Poland in games where we're starting off on an equal footing, without the pressure of having to win in 90mins. I think it's a big difference. That said, I think Ukraine would be massive favourites against us - they look very good at the moment. I'd fancy our chances against Finland and Iceland. Poland would be favourites against us, but I'd go into that game thinking we have a reasonable chance. |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Nov 21, 2023 12:22:59 GMT
Sorry, I disagree entirely. You reckon it’s the fans task to select the next manager ? Nonsense. The FAW should be ruthlessly ambitious and any manager that doesn’t achieve qualification should be deemed to have failed in his job. Page’s World Cup selections, tactics and performances were woeful. We’ve carried on without improvement from there. I’m 100% confident that a better manager would get a far superior performance from the squad we have available. Accepting failure on the “good bloke” basis, is totally amateur football. Whoever manages us should be tasked with achieving success over a given period. Page has failed. I agree that he comes over as a “good bloke” but I want us to demand success from players and manager alike. No more acceptance of “plucky old Wales” just failing. Nice wins nothing. P.S. please don’t call me a child again because I disagree with you ! We definitely have the players who should have got us qualification from this group. I’ll say it again, Armenia away and Turkiye at home were the easiest play-off fixtures available to us. Getting to the actual play offs is not a success. I despair if we head into them with Page still in charge. Vault me if I’m proved wrong. Good way of looking at it, Armenia away and Turkey home in a playoff, you'd back us to get the job done. Now we're looking at possibly Ukraine home and Poland away. Much more difficult. We'll need the atmosphere in the camp to be really good to pull that off. Did you just not read my post at all? I literally explained how it isn't the fans job to literally select the next manager I said that it's the responsibility of fans to have a suggested alternative that you want as manager IF you're going to call for the managers head, otherwise you come across as a child throwing their toys out of the pram. Anyone can vent by shouting "sack the manager" from the sidelines whenever they feel like venting some frustration. But these sentiments and decisions have real world consequences. What if the FAW did sack him without a plan as you suggest? We'd be up shit creek without a paddle with a potential playoff on the horizon. I don't want that! How can we claim to be "Together stronger" if we just whine about wanting rid of the manager without knowing who we even want in to replace him to improve things?! That's why in my opinion if you want to call for his head you have to be able to suggest a credible alternative, otherwise it makes it seem as though the best decision is to stick with them So whenever someone refuses to answer the question of who do we replace him with it annoys me, because it's very unreasonable. Personally I'd like to see Page replaced with Bellamy, although I've got no idea when the best time to do that would be and because I'm unsure I'd say we probably have to stick with Page through to the end of the playoffs |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Nov 21, 2023 12:23:52 GMT
I think the point is that as a package you'd rather Armenia away and Turkey home than Ukraine home and Poland away to qualify for the Euros. These comments always miss the point that the need to get three points is much more difficult than winning a knockout game. So having to beat Armenia and Turkey in real time within three days is arguably more difficult than one of Iceland/Finland/Ukraine followed by Poland in games where we're starting off on an equal footing, without the pressure of having to win in 90mins. I think it's a big difference. That said, I think Ukraine would be massive favourites against us - they look very good at the moment. I'd fancy our chances against Finland and Iceland. Poland would be favourites against us, but I'd go into that game thinking we have a reasonable chance. If we get Iceland home & Poland home I'd actually fancy us, providing we find a system that seems to work starting tonight |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Nov 21, 2023 12:24:35 GMT
With Page at the helm we can forget about any play off success that is almost nailed on!! I mean we have literally qualified through the playoffs under him, so your claim is completely bogus |
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Post by iot on Nov 21, 2023 12:28:00 GMT
These comments always miss the point that the need to get three points is much more difficult than winning a knockout game. So having to beat Armenia and Turkey in real time within three days is arguably more difficult than one of Iceland/Finland/Ukraine followed by Poland in games where we're starting off on an equal footing, without the pressure of having to win in 90mins. I think it's a big difference. That said, I think Ukraine would be massive favourites against us - they look very good at the moment. I'd fancy our chances against Finland and Iceland. Poland would be favourites against us, but I'd go into that game thinking we have a reasonable chance. If we get Iceland home & Poland home I'd actually fancy us, providing we find a system that seems to work starting tonight I think we're aways going to be against the odds of progressing because of the need to win both games. So even if it were an 80% chance of beating Iceland followed by a 50% chance of beating the Poles (which are very generous), it would still leave us with a 40% chance of progressing overall. How does the second game work - I thought Poland were guaranteed to be home, but are you saying that's not the case? |
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Post by iot on Nov 21, 2023 12:29:25 GMT
With Page at the helm we can forget about any play off success that is almost nailed on!! I mean we have literally qualified through the playoffs under him, so your claim is completely bogus But you're forgetting that Page had nothing to do with it, it was purely down to Bale's magic. Absolutely no other factor in winning two games against high quality opposition. Or something... |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Nov 21, 2023 12:57:18 GMT
If we get Iceland home & Poland home I'd actually fancy us, providing we find a system that seems to work starting tonight I think we're aways going to be against the odds of progressing because of the need to win both games. So even if it were an 80% chance of beating Iceland followed by a 50% chance of beating the Poles (which are very generous), it would still leave us with a 40% chance of progressing overall. How does the second game work - I thought Poland were guaranteed to be home, but are you saying that's not the case? No it's done on a draw, 50-50 whether we are home or away for the final |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Nov 21, 2023 12:59:47 GMT
I mean we have literally qualified through the playoffs under him, so your claim is completely bogus But you're forgetting that Page had nothing to do with it, it was purely down to Bale's magic. Absolutely no other factor in winning two games against high quality opposition. Or something... This is true of the Ukraine game, but we played Austria off the park in the semi - one of our best performances under Page. Yes Bale scored the goals that night, but he didn't "Bale us out", we were unlucky not to score more |
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Post by iot on Nov 21, 2023 13:46:47 GMT
But you're forgetting that Page had nothing to do with it, it was purely down to Bale's magic. Absolutely no other factor in winning two games against high quality opposition. Or something... This is true of the Ukraine game, but we played Austria off the park in the semi - one of our best performances under Page. Yes Bale scored the goals that night, but he didn't "Bale us out", we were unlucky not to score more Yes but even against Ukraine, when we weren't at our best, we were against a really good side and managed to come out on top. We played against them just before Euro 16 if I remember correctly and got completely outplayed, losing 2-0. So I don't think the result we got in that game should be dismissed, even if we were lucky |
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Post by conwy10 on Nov 21, 2023 15:00:22 GMT
Good way of looking at it, Armenia away and Turkey home in a playoff, you'd back us to get the job done. Now we're looking at possibly Ukraine home and Poland away. Much more difficult. We'll need the atmosphere in the camp to be really good to pull that off. Hang on Ukraine is the worst of the potential playoffs. Turkey are on form I'd rather face Iceland or Finland to be honest. Ukraine were drawn with England and Italy. I personally think North Macedonia are better than Armenia too. |
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Post by conwy10 on Nov 21, 2023 15:04:36 GMT
Good way of looking at it, Armenia away and Turkey home in a playoff, you'd back us to get the job done. Now we're looking at possibly Ukraine home and Poland away. Much more difficult. We'll need the atmosphere in the camp to be really good to pull that off. Did you just not read my post at all? I literally explained how it isn't the fans job to literally select the next manager I said that it's the responsibility of fans to have a suggested alternative that you want as manager IF you're going to call for the managers head, otherwise you come across as a child throwing their toys out of the pram. Anyone can vent by shouting "sack the manager" from the sidelines whenever they feel like venting some frustration. But these sentiments and decisions have real world consequences. What if the FAW did sack him without a plan as you suggest? We'd be up shit creek without a paddle with a potential playoff on the horizon. I don't want that! How can we claim to be "Together stronger" if we just whine about wanting rid of the manager without knowing who we even want in to replace him to improve things?! That's why in my opinion if you want to call for his head you have to be able to suggest a credible alternative, otherwise it makes it seem as though the best decision is to stick with them So whenever someone refuses to answer the question of who do we replace him with it annoys me, because it's very unreasonable. Personally I'd like to see Page replaced with Bellamy, although I've got no idea when the best time to do that would be and because I'm unsure I'd say we probably have to stick with Page through to the end of the playoffs I think I've not been quoted in the right thing but happy to answer. |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Nov 21, 2023 15:50:52 GMT
Did you just not read my post at all? I literally explained how it isn't the fans job to literally select the next manager I said that it's the responsibility of fans to have a suggested alternative that you want as manager IF you're going to call for the managers head, otherwise you come across as a child throwing their toys out of the pram. Anyone can vent by shouting "sack the manager" from the sidelines whenever they feel like venting some frustration. But these sentiments and decisions have real world consequences. What if the FAW did sack him without a plan as you suggest? We'd be up shit creek without a paddle with a potential playoff on the horizon. I don't want that! How can we claim to be "Together stronger" if we just whine about wanting rid of the manager without knowing who we even want in to replace him to improve things?! That's why in my opinion if you want to call for his head you have to be able to suggest a credible alternative, otherwise it makes it seem as though the best decision is to stick with them So whenever someone refuses to answer the question of who do we replace him with it annoys me, because it's very unreasonable. Personally I'd like to see Page replaced with Bellamy, although I've got no idea when the best time to do that would be and because I'm unsure I'd say we probably have to stick with Page through to the end of the playoffs I think I've not been quoted in the right thing but happy to answer. Yeah sorry wrong quote 👍 meant to quote felinessex |
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Post by aberbeeg on Nov 21, 2023 16:05:58 GMT
With Page at the helm we can forget about any play off success that is almost nailed on!! I mean we have literally qualified through the playoffs under him, so your claim is completely bogus Bale qualified us through the play offs…. And if page gets credit for that then he has to be responsible for the downward trajectory ever since. |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Nov 21, 2023 16:36:25 GMT
I mean we have literally qualified through the playoffs under him, so your claim is completely bogus Bale qualified us through the play offs…. And if page gets credit for that then he has to be responsible for the downward trajectory ever since. You can attribute all of our qualifications to Bale if you really want, but you're attributing it to Bale AND saying Page is entirely responsible for recent bad - so make that make sense for me Obviously I feel the responsibilities fall on a mix between player abilities and management Back then I felt Page had been on a good run, confidence was high, results had been very good, performances had mostly been good enough. A mix of team spirit, emotion, confidence, tactics & Bale got us to Qatar Since then I feel like results have been mostly bad, performances have been mostly bad, we've lost a bit of star power, and spirit/confidence has taken a hit, and the manager has mostly not got it right enough. Not all of this is on Page but I obviously feel he deserves constructive criticism. We also have to be realistic about where our playing group is, I don't think we're any better than Croatia/Turkey and as a result I can't honestly say we've underperformed |
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Post by hooky on Nov 21, 2023 17:31:23 GMT
Bale was clearly the difference against Austria. We played fantastically well - Pages can take some credit for that - but the 2 world class decisive moments came from one player
Ukraine we should have been behind after an hour but Wayne had an incredible game and Bale (with luck) got the decisive goal
He was manager so we allowed him to take credit for his part but we always questioned why we played so bad versus the likes of Estonia (home) and Belarus (away) and Bale saved us in Belarus - Page played a dodgy Gunter past his prime and made no positive difference to the situation.
Since we were embarrassing at the WC and have had 3 stinkers in this competition, 2 against Armenia. Even if you pretended Bale did not make the difference in the past - a manager should only have goodwill extended for past achievements for so long. Its now 18 months since we had a run of consistent performances - who wants to watch this 80s rubbish football for another cycle? Unless you believe our players are materially inferior to every team we lose to / have struggled against then you have to attribute a slice of blame to our manager. He keeps playing players who are not match fit - not just a couple but half the bloody team! He does not learn basic lessons and did you see the headline - I would not change anything! Well if I failed I always would want to change things if I could and that is what you need to do to learn and improve / not pretend you did everything right when you clearly did not! Providing passion and little else is a poor manager's excuse!
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Post by dai on Nov 21, 2023 18:07:04 GMT
"We're having no talk of play-offs," said Wales manager Page.
"If we're talking play-offs, we may as well call the game off on Tuesday. That's our mentality and attitude.
"The campaign is not over. If you'd have seen training, you will see the players don't believe it's over. We're fully focused on the job we've got and we don't want any regrets when that final whistle goes.
C'mon now Rob, EVERYONE knows we have a playoff to fall on. Of course the camp are talking about it, let's not be daft here.
I wonder how different our attitude would have been on Saturday had we not had a playoff in place......
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Post by evans1282 on Nov 21, 2023 20:50:48 GMT
Bale was clearly the difference against Austria. We played fantastically well - Pages can take some credit for that - but the 2 world class decisive moments came from one player Ukraine we should have been behind after an hour but Wayne had an incredible game and Bale (with luck) got the decisive goal He was manager so we allowed him to take credit for his part but we always questioned why we played so bad versus the likes of Estonia (home) and Belarus (away) and Bale saved us in Belarus - Page played a dodgy Gunter past his prime and made no positive difference to the situation. Since we were embarrassing at the WC and have had 3 stinkers in this competition, 2 against Armenia. Even if you pretended Bale did not make the difference in the past - a manager should only have goodwill extended for past achievements for so long. Its now 18 months since we had a run of consistent performances - who wants to watch this 80s rubbish football for another cycle? Unless you believe our players are materially inferior to every team we lose to / have struggled against then you have to attribute a slice of blame to our manager. He keeps playing players who are not match fit - not just a couple but half the bloody team! He does not learn basic lessons and did you see the headline - I would not change anything! Well if I failed I always would want to change things if I could and that is what you need to do to learn and improve / not pretend you did everything right when you clearly did not! Providing passion and little else is a poor manager's excuse! So to some up this novel of a post When we win its the players When we lose its always Pages fault Simplistic bs |
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Post by dai on Nov 21, 2023 21:38:44 GMT
This Armenia - Turkey double header has already been a sort of play off. Page has failed.
We have only played well in one, maybe two matches if we're being honest with ourselves.
Can he be trusted with another important double header?
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Post by hooky on Nov 21, 2023 21:55:51 GMT
Bale was clearly the difference against Austria. We played fantastically well - Pages can take some credit for that - but the 2 world class decisive moments came from one player Ukraine we should have been behind after an hour but Wayne had an incredible game and Bale (with luck) got the decisive goal He was manager so we allowed him to take credit for his part but we always questioned why we played so bad versus the likes of Estonia (home) and Belarus (away) and Bale saved us in Belarus - Page played a dodgy Gunter past his prime and made no positive difference to the situation. Since we were embarrassing at the WC and have had 3 stinkers in this competition, 2 against Armenia. Even if you pretended Bale did not make the difference in the past - a manager should only have goodwill extended for past achievements for so long. Its now 18 months since we had a run of consistent performances - who wants to watch this 80s rubbish football for another cycle? Unless you believe our players are materially inferior to every team we lose to / have struggled against then you have to attribute a slice of blame to our manager. He keeps playing players who are not match fit - not just a couple but half the bloody team! He does not learn basic lessons and did you see the headline - I would not change anything! Well if I failed I always would want to change things if I could and that is what you need to do to learn and improve / not pretend you did everything right when you clearly did not! Providing passion and little else is a poor manager's excuse! So to some up this novel of a post When we win its the players When we lose its always Pages fault Simplistic bs No you are right - Page is great - just carry on - brilliant management tonight when it started becoming one way traffic in the second half - and the ball kept going to their best player and he was continually left one on one. Why? |
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Post by hooky on Nov 21, 2023 21:57:31 GMT
This Armenia - Turkey double header has already been a sort of play off. Page has failed. We have only played well in one, maybe two matches if we're being honest with ourselves. Can he be trusted with another important double header? No but we are stuck with him. |
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Post by dai on Nov 21, 2023 21:59:56 GMT
Interesting that Turkey sacked Stefan Kuntz back in September despite having better results than us....
Vincenzo Montella, current Turkey manager has managed top sides in Italy. It's no wonder they are a better team.
I'm not saying changing manager is the right decision, but it's definitely not too late to make a change before the play offs.
I honestly don't see us getting past the play offs this time.
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Post by underwood on Nov 21, 2023 22:01:38 GMT
This Armenia - Turkey double header has already been a sort of play off. Page has failed. We have only played well in one, maybe two matches if we're being honest with ourselves. Can he be trusted with another important double header? This is a very astute observation. The table doesn’t lie, we’ve finished a distant 3rd & that’s just not good enough, particularly after being handed a second chance, which we have subsequently blown. A club manager whose team is expected to challenge for promotion, but ends up finishing mid-table, invariably loses his job. An analogy that fits for Page I’m afraid. |
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Post by hooky on Nov 21, 2023 22:03:18 GMT
Look at this coldly
Doing OK - lose 2-4 at home vs a 96th ranked team
Then get back in it. Need 6 points - end up with 1 point
A manager is judged on that. If we had a better alternative Page should be gone but we know he will be there until the end of the campaign in March
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