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Post by georgeberrysheadband on Nov 30, 2016 13:08:59 GMT
Apologies if this has already been mentioned on this thread but does anyone have the definitive answer on how Woodburn is eligible for Wales?
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Post by cymroircarn on Nov 30, 2016 13:10:46 GMT
Are his mum and dad Welsh? I though it was a grandparent? Or were his parents subject to the borders maternity hospital issue and were born the other side of the border but were Welsh through and through? Just hope he keeps well away from Michael Owen! To be fair I do not thing we have ever actually lost a talented youngster who played for us regularly through the age grades have we? In the case of Heargreaves didn't the FAW stupidly lose track of him? The likes of Owen, Rob Jones, etc, were never integrated into our system were they? The only one I can think of is ironically that Lloyd Jones of Liverpool and where is he now! With Hargreaves didn't Jimmy Shoulder make him aware of he played in a certain game he would be ineligible for England? The only one I can think of is Rhys Williams who jumped ship for Australia |
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Post by manulike on Nov 30, 2016 13:19:08 GMT
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Post by cymroircarn on Nov 30, 2016 13:33:13 GMT
Welsh grandparents according to the WoL article |
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Post by alarch on Nov 30, 2016 14:11:05 GMT
The plural is perhaps significant. If one parent has two Welsh parents they will very probably identify strongly as Welsh - but perhaps I'm biased based on my personal experience...
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Post by manulike on Nov 30, 2016 14:21:08 GMT
The plural is perhaps significant. If one parent has two Welsh parents they will very probably identify strongly as Welsh - but perhaps I'm biased based on my personal experience... Beeb says "having a maternal grandfather born in Wales" www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/38154933 |
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Post by georgeberrysheadband on Nov 30, 2016 14:48:48 GMT
Thanks. Seems certain the English media are going to completely over hype him and pressurise him into going with them. Hopefully, the Welsh camp has done enough over lat few years to convince him he is better off with us.
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Post by cymroircarn on Nov 30, 2016 15:00:07 GMT
End of the day he will make his own decision.
As he has been in the Welsh system for a while you will would like to think he feels Welsh and will continue to want to play for Wales.
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Post by manulike on Nov 30, 2016 15:00:08 GMT
Thanks. Seems certain the English media are going to completely over hype him and pressurise him into going with them. Hopefully, the Welsh camp has done enough over lat few years to convince him he is better off with us. There is always the threat of Harry Wilson, his captain, breaking his nose ;-)) |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2016 15:02:17 GMT
Thanks. Seems certain the English media are going to completely over hype him and pressurise him into going with them. Hopefully, the Welsh camp has done enough over lat few years to convince him he is better off with us. The press interest in him after scoring that goal is completely OTT. As Klopp said himself, even he could have put that one away. The thing I find worrying is would there be the same interest if this kid was wholly Welsh and so ineligible for England? I can't help but agree that the hype machine seems to be doing it's best to highlight that he is fair game for the English to poach. Thst being said one grandparent who is Welsh is very very tenuous indeed. I get loads of shit for claiming to be Welsh when I had a Welsh father and his entire side of the family being Welsh, this lad is taking it to the extreme. I only hope if he continues with Wales it is because he truly identifies as being Welsh however I am not sure how you realistically can have an idea of Welsh culture with one grandparent being your sole link. |
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Post by manulike on Nov 30, 2016 15:11:14 GMT
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Post by alarch on Nov 30, 2016 16:05:46 GMT
The difference with HRK, Ash and Sam is that none were attractive propositions to England when they were first capped by Wales. Their approach with Woodburn isn't likely to be as disinterested unfortunately.
The toxicity that surrounds representing England should certainly give him pause for thought about jumping ship. You only have to look at the recent furore around Rooney. He wouldn't get that with Wales - and that should be a significant factor in our favour. Ultimately, let the lad decide what's best for him and respect his decision.
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Post by quetzal on Nov 30, 2016 16:35:58 GMT
Honestly though, if someone born in England decides to play for England should we be disappointed?
Kevin Sheedy was a bitter pill to swallow because Wales were short on midfielders at that time and when he was 15 he phoned the Welsh f.a. to say he'd been selected to play for Rep Ireland but Wales was his first choice but the Welsh f.a. told him 'don't call us, we'll call you'.
Sheedy was born and raised in Builth Wells
Rob Jones was born in Wrexham but said he never felt Welsh. That's good enough for me.
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Post by georgeberrysheadband on Nov 30, 2016 16:45:43 GMT
Thanks. Seems certain the English media are going to completely over hype him and pressurise him into going with them. Hopefully, the Welsh camp has done enough over lat few years to convince him he is better off with us. There is always the threat of Harry Wilson, his captain, breaking his nose ;-)) Harry hasn't got that edge to him😀 |
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Post by alarch on Nov 30, 2016 16:46:08 GMT
There is a similarity with Rob Jones - in that he enjoyed a meteoric rise. Had he made more gradual progress he would have probably ended up a Welsh international and would have ended up feeling Welsh, just like Ash and HRK.
Would there be all this hype had Woodburn not scored last night and eclipsed Owen's record? Clearly not. Let's just hope that the likes of Roberts, Ampadu make slow but steady progress... As for Wilson - he needs to get on with it.
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Post by alarch on Nov 30, 2016 16:54:23 GMT
This seems to be the most definitive take on matters yet: www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/liverpools-ben-woodburn-welsh-english-12253550Not exactly a revelation but this caught my eye: "Ryan Giggs could not have chosen to play for England, contrary to popular belief, while Gareth Bale – who has an English grandparent – could have, but said he turned down the prospect after a “two second conversation” with his agent." Made me wonder, does it actually take two seconds to say "fuck off"? |
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Post by dlwilliams on Nov 30, 2016 17:04:22 GMT
This seems to be the most definitive take on matters yet: www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/liverpools-ben-woodburn-welsh-english-12253550Not exactly a revelation but this caught my eye: "Ryan Giggs could not have chosen to play for England, contrary to popular belief, while Gareth Bale – who has an English grandparent – could have, but said he turned down the prospect after a “two second conversation” with his agent." Made me wonder, does it actually take two seconds to say "fuck off"?Haha! I still find it slightly difficult to understand why Bale didn't sack him immediately for even suggesting it. |
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Post by holmesdaleultra on Nov 30, 2016 17:51:58 GMT
Thanks. Seems certain the English media are going to completely over hype him and pressurise him into going with them. Hopefully, the Welsh camp has done enough over lat few years to convince him he is better off with us. The media are going completely overboard with this lad, he is only 17 so they should leave him alone. They did this with that young lad from Aston Villa grealish and he has hardly made any progress since. Our own Wilfred Zaha has decided to switch and play for ivory coast after being messed about by England. So woodburn should be cautious about England. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2016 18:46:08 GMT
I'm disappointed to hear Williams considered England. IIRC he was always said to be committed because of his Welsh ancestry, as if there were no two ways about it in the same forthright way that Bale dismissed his agent.
There is too much flip-flopping at international level and I don't understand it. But then I speak as someone born in England who could have represented 4 countries at international level and yet would only ever have chosen Wales because from a young age there was a Welsh element to my up bringing, calling my Welsh nan nain, going to welsh rugby and regional club matches etc so I never had any doubts about my cultural identity.
So I tend to think surely if you asked the likes of Woodburn what they identify as surely there is some part of modern culture that they can point to as making them feel definitely from a certain place? Instead there is lots of choosing of your nationality like you are choosing a pair of curtains. It all seems so alien and mercenary to me. I used to like international football precisely because it wasn't that way, you can choose a club for money but your international side is where your heart is.
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Post by alarch on Nov 30, 2016 18:58:42 GMT
That article doesn't give any evidence that Williams considered England at all - it seems like 100% speculation to me. Just as Woodburn may not be considering England at all right now. One can wish...
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Post by cadno on Nov 30, 2016 20:23:12 GMT
Yeah that article posted by "manulike" is rubbish, there's nothing to suggest Williams ever considered switching to England.
Woodburn won't switch.
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Post by gwernybwch on Nov 30, 2016 21:46:18 GMT
Honestly though, if someone born in England decides to play for England should we be disappointed? Kevin Sheedy was a bitter pill to swallow because Wales were short on midfielders at that time and when he was 15 he phoned the Welsh f.a. to say he'd been selected to play for Rep Ireland but Wales was his first choice but the Welsh f.a. told him 'don't call us, we'll call you'. Sheedy was born and raised in Builth WellsRob Jones was born in Wrexham but said he never felt Welsh. That's good enough for me. Not quite correct. Sheedy was born in Builth, but did not grow up in Wales (grew up in Allensmore near Hereford). He was never in the Welsh football youth system. I was told that his Welshness (Welsh mother) wasn't particularly impressed on him. Whilst his Irishness was. He father ensured that he always had an Irish citizenship. Therefore I can understand why Sheedy never felt particularly Welsh (that and the way that the FAW handled him when he phoned them).
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Post by quetzal on Nov 30, 2016 21:54:00 GMT
Honestly though, if someone born in England decides to play for England should we be disappointed? Kevin Sheedy was a bitter pill to swallow because Wales were short on midfielders at that time and when he was 15 he phoned the Welsh f.a. to say he'd been selected to play for Rep Ireland but Wales was his first choice but the Welsh f.a. told him 'don't call us, we'll call you'. Sheedy was born and raised in Builth WellsRob Jones was born in Wrexham but said he never felt Welsh. That's good enough for me. Not quite correct. Sheedy was born in Builth, but did not grow up in Wales (grew up in Allensmore near Hereford). He was never in the Welsh football youth system. I was told that his Welshness (Welsh mother) wasn't particularly impressed on him. Whilst his Irishness was. He father ensured that he always had an Irish citizenship. Therefore I can understand why Sheedy never felt particularly Welsh (that and the way that the FAW handled him when he phoned them).
Fair enough. But there was a phone call to Welsh schools or Welsh F.A. and they didn't show any interest |
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Post by biwmares on Nov 30, 2016 21:58:50 GMT
There's little point in getting desperate over getting Woodburn capped. For a start we may well not have a game until the ROI qualifier in March - a long way away. We certainly can't include him in the squad for that game just to get him capped, given how important the game is - he would need to be there on merit. A big selling point for the whole Welsh set up is how we handle the players - and a lot of credit has to go to the likes of Cledwyn Ashford in that respect. What we mustn't do is what Roy Evans is advocating: "You've got to jump on these players when they become available and you think they're going to be good enough." That sort of blatantly expolitative and self-interested approach should be off-putting for player and his advisors. We've got to try and remain classy and whilst giving him every positive encouragement to stay with Wales have to be willing to let him go if that's what he decides is best for him at the end of the day. We need to exercise "soft power" when it comes to handling youngsters, and outsmart England, who I'm confident will behave (the English press if not the FA) in a venal self-interested way. The English are so often their own worst enemies - but they lack the wisdom and humility to see it. Cledwyn Ashford's positive opinion. " qualifies for Wales via two of his grandparents hailing from the Swansea area" "100% confident” that Woodburn will reject England’s overtures and will one day share a pitch with Gareth Bale, Aaron Ramsey and Joe Allen in red of Wales" "The age group Ben’s a part of right now is an incredibly talented one, and there’s also a strong camaraderie, they all want to emulate Gareth Bale and Aaron Ramsey" “From knowing Ben since he was 13 years old, I know how proud he is to put on the red shirt" “Ben, and his teammates, can see the pathway forward to the senior side. Its a very exciting time for Welsh football on all levels.” www.dailypost.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/liverpool-fc-star-ben-woodburn-12253840 |
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Post by manulike on Nov 30, 2016 22:02:48 GMT
Cookie quoted in the Mirror: Coleman said: “He’s said he’s committed to Wales and I’m happy to take his word for it. He’s been brought up in the Welsh system and done very well for the various sides he has played for so we have full faith in him. “We’re aware he does qualify for England but he’s always represented us well and represented us proudly – and the signs are good that he will keep progressing and continue to do that. We have full faith in him as a player. And he added: “I think Jurgen Klopp has been first class with him and what he’s said about him, though he’s right in saying he can’t ignore him if he continues to progress as he is. “And it will be the same with us – not that we’ve ignored him. He’s been on our radar for some time, we’ve seen him develop. He’s looked very good and shown a lot of quality and I’m sure he will keep up the hard work that’s got him to this stage.” “We will be careful. Harry came in when the squad was decimated to give him a taste of things. To be honest, I think he struggled a bit afterwards but it’s good to see he’s now back on track. You have to balance between protecting them and pushing them on, but we’re delighted with the progress Ben is making.” www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/ben-woodburn-commits-future-wales-9367799 |
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Post by haruki on Dec 1, 2016 10:07:14 GMT
Ben Woodburn is further evidence of the great work being done in the Welsh youth set up. As with Ampadu we seem to be much quicker to identify young talent and to bring it onto our pathway. The "Welshness" that some of these English born lads feel must also be in part coming from the youth coaches and set up. Therefore when England came in for both Ampadu and Woodburn they chose Wales having already been integrated into our set up.
Great work from Osian and his team. Heres hoping the English FA don't use this situation as a cause to up their game
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Post by manulike on Dec 4, 2016 13:29:55 GMT
Ben is on the bench again today v Bournemouth.
Looks like Klopp is really pushing the lad
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Post by marsvolta on Dec 4, 2016 15:04:04 GMT
Ben is on the bench again today v Bournemouth. Looks like Klopp is really pushing the lad Yeah, watching that now and was happy to see that he is in the squad again. Though,In some ways it might be better for us long term if he didn't play for the fist team at Liverpool and was low profile for a while, England have plenty of other players and he may slip under their radar. |
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Post by manulike on Dec 13, 2016 22:04:04 GMT
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Post by welshiron on Dec 14, 2016 9:05:10 GMT
Think he will be on the bench tonight as he didn't play for the u23s this week
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