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Post by allezlesrouges on Aug 26, 2022 16:38:33 GMT
Think Brooks will be available for the next squad, and honestly think Broadhead and Woodburn will be ahead of Lawrence given their age Tom Lawrence is 28, hardly retirement age. He is much better than Woodburn and Broadhead who are League 1 at best, and yet to show consistency and tearing it up at that level. They have not developed the way we wanted them to 5 years ago, and should only be in the squad now on performance merit. We have enough of a player pool where it should be based on merit and form and not a "closed shop" as it was once, it's a good position to be in, especially qualifying for tournaments. But to go off your point, if we are putting in players for the sake of it because of age for development and exposure, we would be better off putting in Charlie Savage, Owen Beck and Luke Harris to fill up the squad. 1) Neither was James Chester, Ashley Williams or Neil Taylor when they stopped getting called up. It's not a question of retirement age, it's a clear pattern in our squad selection that we promote youth early when we can, sometimes at the expense of players who don't have much of a future with us. But it seems the only players who get older that we keep on both offer a lot to squad dynamics and offer a unique quality to the squad, like Gunter (versatility & experience), Jonny (ball retention & free kick winning). Compared to these two Lawrence probably isn't that great for the squad, and isn't any better than what we already have, with a lower ceiling 2) Woodburn is still only 22, has settled in well in the Championship this season after a permanent move, and could still be a really good player. Broadhead was favoured over Lawrence in the last squad - not much has changed since then 3) It isn't a closed shop, as Page continuously calls up new players when he feels it's right. Squad selection is based on merit and form as well as many other things. Lawrence obviously doesn't tick all the required boxes, and hasn't done for a while, despite showing good form 4) I'd love to see Luke Harris involved. Sounds like a top player in the making |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Aug 26, 2022 16:49:34 GMT
The development argument is entirely spurious for as long as we continue to pick Gunter. It isn't. Gunter offers versatility and 100+ caps of experience including 2 tournaments Plenty of space in the squad has been made for young defenders such as Mepham, Rodon, Ampadu, Connor, Neco, RND, Cabango & Denham to come into the squad, all the while Gunter has been there |
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Post by insertname on Aug 26, 2022 16:50:35 GMT
Tom Lawrence is 28, hardly retirement age. He is much better than Woodburn and Broadhead who are League 1 at best, and yet to show consistency and tearing it up at that level. They have not developed the way we wanted them to 5 years ago, and should only be in the squad now on performance merit. We have enough of a player pool where it should be based on merit and form and not a "closed shop" as it was once, it's a good position to be in, especially qualifying for tournaments. But to go off your point, if we are putting in players for the sake of it because of age for development and exposure, we would be better off putting in Charlie Savage, Owen Beck and Luke Harris to fill up the squad. 1) Neither was James Chester, Ashley Williams or Neil Taylor when they stopped getting called up. It's not a question of retirement age, it's a clear pattern in our squad selection that we promote youth early when we can, sometimes at the expense of players who don't have much of a future with us. But it seems the only players who get older that we keep on both offer a lot to squad dynamics and offer a unique quality to the squad, like Gunter (versatility & experience), Jonny (ball retention & free kick winning). Compared to these two Lawrence probably isn't that great for the squad, and isn't any better than what we already have, with a lower ceiling 2) Woodburn is still only 22, has settled in well in the Championship this season after a permanent move, and could still be a really good player. Broadhead was favoured over Lawrence in the last squad - not much has changed since then 3) It isn't a closed shop, as Page continuously calls up new players when he feels it's right. Squad selection is based on merit and form as well as many other things. Lawrence obviously doesn't tick all the required boxes, and hasn't done for a while, despite showing good form 4) I'd love to see Luke Harris involved. Sounds like a top player in the making The thing I would question though is what are the quantifiable benefits of calling up younger players knowing they are there mostly for a free ride (ie they won’t be called upon). What benefits did calling up Colwill have for his career? Arguably his career is on the same progression as it would have if he hadn’t been called up. In some ways it’s a moot point, in others if the whole squad is on the bench and you are allowed 5 subs surely you are more likely to turn to Lawrence as a wildcard play than you are Woodburn? |
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Post by hooky on Aug 26, 2022 19:46:14 GMT
Guy should be in the squad on merit as long as he did not do anything incredibly negative when last in camp
His crash and bad behaviour was attributed to alcohol dependency after his mum died or something was it not? One never knows the truth but if that is true then I would not be judging him.
Players should always be picked on merit. It jars with me that players like Gunter and Harris are anywhere near the squad right now. This nonsense about team spirit. Gunter is now a liability and Harris will never change a game at international level against a decent team. We should have no place for mediocrity - not many international teams do when they have better options. Not everyone needs to be everyone's best mate - in life that just does not happen and that is not a perfect culture either.
Pick on merit always - unless someone is deeply disruptive to everyone. Shall we stop introverts or people with little sense of humour playing for Wales? Some of us would find the banter / practical jokes played in the squad childish - does that mean we are not team players.
Page needs to explain why someone is not selected when their form dictates they should be well ahead of certain options. He has done well for us but he should still be accountable for decisions. Quite frankly its wrong that we all know Gunter will be in that WC squad when he should be nowhere near it based on footballing ability / effectiveness.
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Post by iot on Aug 26, 2022 19:57:49 GMT
I find that so strange. You don't think the type of environment within the camp and the bond between players has any impact on team performances and the extent which they pull together, understand each other, and fight for each other? I don't care how many times it needs to be said, I'll say it every time someone tries to dumb down squad selection into a simple assessment of who the best / most in-form set of 23/26 players are - there are other factors at play! Sure, ability and form are the main ones, but leadership skills, personalities, styles of play and countless other factors also form part of the equation. It beggars belief that people still don't get that despite what they've seen with their own eyes in Page's time at the helm, and Coleman before him, where the whole has been so much greater than the sum of its parts - leading us to an euros semi final, last 16, and our first world cup in 60+ years. By securing the tight-knit group, our performances are that much more cohesive and competitive, giving us an edge over higher quality opposition on countless occasions. It’s more the way it’s talked up, than the method, although I am fully on the side of the people who are against calling up the likes of Gunter. Hearing people talk about it if you didn’t know it was football you’d think it was something far less frivolous than what it is- up to 4 weeks at a World Cup. “Togetherness”, “spirit”, “the bond”, “the camp”. It’s all very melodramatic when you look at the context imo (and unfortunately the struggles people will genuinely be going through in the UK when the World Cup takes place), especially for Wales who have no pressure on them whatsoever. I can understand it a bit more for England because they are under massive pressure and will be character assassinated for failure, for us it all seems a bit OTT. Eh? I have no idea what you're talking about. The only point being made is that selection decisions should be based on a range of factors including efforts to keep the positive, tight-knit nature of the group - not as a point of principle or for sentimentality, but because it's in our own self interest. It makes us more likely to perform better. That's it, nothing else - none of the nonsense you're talking about. You're just using the tactic you often use where you present a massively exaggerated version of what people have said, and argue against that. |
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Post by hooky on Aug 26, 2022 21:07:34 GMT
Its not a tactic. Its simple. If you are better over a period of time then you should be selected unless you are a materially negative influence.
I used Gunter as an example as he clearly should be nowhere near the squad / is a liability now. I am passionate about what I say - you are entitled to have a different views. What about the exaggerated response I could argue I hear - that Gunter is great for team spirit and he'll never play anyway. That is just not good enough and guess what - we could lose several defenders if we went far in the tournament to say the quarter finals - well its not impossible then that we could end up playing someone like him. You know I feel the same way about Harris - a forward with no end product. Now Lawrence can be hot and cold but the point is he can be hot and he is currently playing well.
You see such unfairness in all walks of life but its usually more limited in sports like football at the elite level, as results matter and weaknesses / mistakes are easier to spot.
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Post by hooky on Aug 26, 2022 21:10:40 GMT
iot and others. I respect your opinions and the great thing about this forum is we never personalise disagreements too much. I just believe in high pressure environment, quality and potential / ability to produce counts right throughout the squad.
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Post by hooky on Aug 26, 2022 21:20:41 GMT
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Post by bobbyghoul on Aug 26, 2022 22:37:10 GMT
Sorry but that's just not how teams work, at any level or in any profession. Team culture is so, so important. And if Lawrence isn't picked because of his negative impact on team culture then fair enough. But equally fair is the questioning of Page by fans and the media. None of this subservient "in Pagey we trust" nonsense, which ironically is often a symptom of a poor culture. Completely agree with all of that until the final sentence. It's absolutely fair game for journos to ask the question, but also fair for Page to respond with vague generalities if he thinks airing dirty laundry would do more harm than good I meant that an environment that doesn't welcome challenge from within and outside is one rooted in a poor culture. I don't believe Page leads such a culture. Of course Page doesn't have to divulge the inner workings (would spoil his autobiography after all) but I'd hope he's being challenged robustly by his assistants and the players and being honest with them in his responses. |
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Post by bobbyghoul on Aug 26, 2022 22:41:54 GMT
The development argument is entirely spurious for as long as we continue to pick Gunter. It isn't. Gunter offers versatility and 100+ caps of experience including 2 tournaments Plenty of space in the squad has been made for young defenders such as Mepham, Rodon, Ampadu, Connor, Neco, RND, Cabango & Denham to come into the squad, all the while Gunter has been there What Gunter no longer offers is the ability to play centre or full back at international level. Just make him part of the backroom staff and be done with it. Wasn't he picked over Cabango and Lockyer in the June squads? |
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Post by evans1282 on Aug 27, 2022 9:26:26 GMT
Its not a tactic. Its simple. If you are better over a period of time then you should be selected unless you are a materially negative influence. I used Gunter as an example as he clearly should be nowhere near the squad / is a liability now. I am passionate about what I say - you are entitled to have a different views. What about the exaggerated response I could argue I hear - that Gunter is great for team spirit and he'll never play anyway. That is just not good enough and guess what - we could lose several defenders if we went far in the tournament to say the quarter finals - well its not impossible then that we could end up playing someone like him. You know I feel the same way about Harris - a forward with no end product. Now Lawrence can be hot and cold but the point is he can be hot and he is currently playing well. You see such unfairness in all walks of life but its usually more limited in sports like football at the elite level, as results matter and weaknesses / mistakes are easier to spot. I've heard versio s of your argument for years from various fans,and to an extent it holds water with a club team,internatiol teams play so few games annually that you have to allow that sometimes you will play someone because you are bedding in a system of play,once you have a successful system that suits the majority of your players you stick with it.Page has been through his tinkering phase and now has a settled system and a couple of backups.If you have a square peg whether behaviour wise or talent wise he has to be levels above Lawrence,to justify the change.I personally would be disappointed if Gunter makes the squad because similarly to you I don't think he cuts it at the highest level.I don't however see him play or watch him in training,so I'm not going to scream closed shop at all and sundry.I can't remember who used the ironic "in Pagey we trust line",but there does come a time when that's exactly what you have to do,he and his team have years of experience, have looked at Lawrence in squads and then not selected him,for me that's enough. |
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Post by marsvolta on Aug 27, 2022 11:50:45 GMT
It isn't. Gunter offers versatility and 100+ caps of experience including 2 tournaments Plenty of space in the squad has been made for young defenders such as Mepham, Rodon, Ampadu, Connor, Neco, RND, Cabango & Denham to come into the squad, all the while Gunter has been there What Gunter no longer offers is the ability to play centre or full back at international level. Just make him part of the backroom staff and be done with it. Wasn't he picked over Cabango and Lockyer in the June squads? Both were injured I think, Cabango certainly was |
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Post by insertname on Aug 27, 2022 12:34:31 GMT
It’s more the way it’s talked up, than the method, although I am fully on the side of the people who are against calling up the likes of Gunter. Hearing people talk about it if you didn’t know it was football you’d think it was something far less frivolous than what it is- up to 4 weeks at a World Cup. “Togetherness”, “spirit”, “the bond”, “the camp”. It’s all very melodramatic when you look at the context imo (and unfortunately the struggles people will genuinely be going through in the UK when the World Cup takes place), especially for Wales who have no pressure on them whatsoever. I can understand it a bit more for England because they are under massive pressure and will be character assassinated for failure, for us it all seems a bit OTT. Eh? I have no idea what you're talking about. The only point being made is that selection decisions should be based on a range of factors including efforts to keep the positive, tight-knit nature of the group - not as a point of principle or for sentimentality, but because it's in our own self interest. It makes us more likely to perform better. That's it, nothing else - none of the nonsense you're talking about. You're just using the tactic you often use where you present a massively exaggerated version of what people have said, and argue against that. It’s not exaggeration given the reverance with which the “spirit” in the camp is talked about so often and non-footballing decisions advocated. If ever there was a country that shouldn’t need so much focus and strategic planning around creating spirit and bonds surely it’s Wales. If the players can’t find an extra 10% and pull together to beat the likes of Belgium for the glory of an often subjugated nation first and foremost then I find that disappointing. |
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Post by hooky on Aug 29, 2022 13:09:38 GMT
Doesn't sound good for Lawrence:
“I don’t think there will be too many surprises in the (World Cup) selection,” Page said, speaking to PA news agency while representing M&S Food’s Eat Well, Play Well campaign.
“I’m a loyal person and if someone did everything right for me, I’ll show it back.
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Post by welshrover on Aug 29, 2022 13:28:44 GMT
Doesn't sound good for Lawrence: “I don’t think there will be too many surprises in the (World Cup) selection,” Page said, speaking to PA news agency while representing M&S Food’s Eat Well, Play Well campaign. “I’m a loyal person and if someone did everything right for me, I’ll show it back. The only problem is most of us can't afford to eat food from M&S. We should have partnered B&M! |
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Post by insertname on Aug 29, 2022 13:41:50 GMT
Doesn't sound good for Lawrence: “I don’t think there will be too many surprises in the (World Cup) selection,” Page said, speaking to PA news agency while representing M&S Food’s Eat Well, Play Well campaign. “I’m a loyal person and if someone did everything right for me, I’ll show it back. It’s not a very meritocratic message and is tantamount to telling certain players that they can down tools right now and coast into the World Cup. If you’re a bench warmer, no need to agitate for a move to improve your World Cup chances. Lawrence arguably is one of Wales form players at the moment we’ll undoubtedly take players who aren’t pulling up trees ahead of him but it’s not something to get worked up about really. He could play like Messi from now until November, put Liverpool to the sword at Anfield and he will still have as much chance of getting a call up as my long deceased Nain. |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Aug 29, 2022 14:12:12 GMT
Doesn't sound good for Lawrence: “I don’t think there will be too many surprises in the (World Cup) selection,” Page said, speaking to PA news agency while representing M&S Food’s Eat Well, Play Well campaign. “I’m a loyal person and if someone did everything right for me, I’ll show it back. He said the same before calling up Colwill for the Euros tbf |
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Post by insertname on Aug 29, 2022 14:25:18 GMT
Doesn't sound good for Lawrence: “I don’t think there will be too many surprises in the (World Cup) selection,” Page said, speaking to PA news agency while representing M&S Food’s Eat Well, Play Well campaign. “I’m a loyal person and if someone did everything right for me, I’ll show it back. He said the same before calling up Colwill for the Euros tbf There’s a clear difference in profile there though. Colwill wasn’t a form player, he was called up basically as a YTS trainee to do some work shadowing for a few weeks. I imagine that there will be a squad place reserved for another “trainee” this time round and that will most likely be for Luke Harris. There won’t be any wild card “player in form at club level” pick. |
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Post by marsvolta on Aug 30, 2022 0:47:52 GMT
Doesn't sound good for Lawrence: “I don’t think there will be too many surprises in the (World Cup) selection,” Page said, speaking to PA news agency while representing M&S Food’s Eat Well, Play Well campaign. “I’m a loyal person and if someone did everything right for me, I’ll show it back. It’s not a very meritocratic message and is tantamount to telling certain players that they can down tools right now and coast into the World Cup. If you’re a bench warmer, no need to agitate for a move to improve your World Cup chances. Lawrence arguably is one of Wales form players at the moment we’ll undoubtedly take players who aren’t pulling up trees ahead of him but it’s not something to get worked up about really. He could play like Messi from now until November, put Liverpool to the sword at Anfield and he will still have as much chance of getting a call up as my long deceased Nain. A counter argument to this could be that one of the reasons the team spirit is so good and important is because it’s filled with players aren’t likely to ‘down tools’ to take advantage of Page being loyal to the squad who have done so well for us. Being loyal to a player doesn’t mean blindly selecting him for no reason, no matter what they do or how well they play. Loyalty also means not dropping players at the drop of a hat just to give someone else a go, despite them not evidencing being much better than what we have. His actual quote says that he is loyal to the players who have done well for us, not that he’s loyal to the current crop no matter what they do. The players still have to earn that loyalty. I personally think Lawrence should be in the squad but he’s not so good that its worth selecting him there is any truth to the fact that his inclusion would disrupt the spirit in the squad. Just because we don’t know the reason why Lawrence isn’t selected, it doesn’t mean there isn’t one and it doesn’t mean something sinister is happening. People are still ludicrously talking about the squad being a closed shop due to Lawrence not being selected, despite actual evidence that numerous new recruits have been added to the squad in the last two qualifying campaigns/nations league games with rumours of more additions in September |
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Post by welshrover on Aug 30, 2022 5:57:25 GMT
We will need to wait and see I suppose.
However if someone playing in Scotland's Premier League and now Champions League (and performing at that level) is left out and a couple of division four players are included then I think it will be more than a few Welsh fans on here questioning the decision.
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Post by dai on Aug 30, 2022 8:37:44 GMT
Not sure why this is still being discussed.
Yes, I think he should be in the squad and he is better than Harris, Matondo, T Roberts and Colwill, but Page is never going to pick him.
He will probably never play for Wales again.
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Post by manulike on Aug 30, 2022 19:41:21 GMT
All the bad feelings and the evil eye on here and now the lad is injured ;-(
#TeamTom
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Post by marsvolta on Aug 30, 2022 20:57:04 GMT
All the bad feelings and the evil eye on here and now the lad is injured ;-( #TeamTom Not sure if any bad feeling. Most on here rate the player but accept that there must be something that’s stopping him being selected, with rumours of him being disruptive the main one. Not that we know for sure. If players of the quality of Aubameyang and Christiano Ronaldo can be moved on due to their negative influence then I’m sure Tom Lawrence can. |
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Post by insertname on Aug 30, 2022 21:07:40 GMT
All the bad feelings and the evil eye on here and now the lad is injured ;-( #TeamTom Not sure if any bad feeling. Most on here rate the player but accept that there must be something that’s stopping him being selected, with rumours of him being disruptive the main one. Not that we know for sure. If players of the quality of Aubameyang and Christiano Ronaldo can be moved on due to their negative influence then I’m sure Tom Lawrence can. True but the counter argument is that there is always someone who believes they can get the best out of them! |
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Post by iot on Sept 12, 2022 21:25:18 GMT
Page is asked here about the omission of Lawrence and says there's been no drama. He mentions the likes of Luke Harris being ahead of him which I guess some people will scoff at. It's either a case of him deciding that he knows all about Lawrence, that as a 28yo he isn't going to improve, and that he isn't good enough, so he prefers youngsters with higher potential as backups to the first choice. Or there has been drama, and he thinks it would be better to keep it under wraps. Take it or leave it. insidefutbol.com/2022/09/12/no-history-national-team-boss-rejects-suggestion-of-why-rangers-man-overlooked/578876/ |
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Post by dai on Sept 12, 2022 21:52:03 GMT
Page is asked here about the omission of Lawrence and says there's been no drama. He mentions the likes of Luke Harris being ahead of him which I guess some people will scoff at. It's either a case of him deciding that he knows all about Lawrence, that as a 28yo he isn't going to improve, and that he isn't good enough, so he prefers youngsters with higher potential as backups to the first choice. Or there has been drama, and he thinks it would be better to keep it under wraps. Take it or leave it. insidefutbol.com/2022/09/12/no-history-national-team-boss-rejects-suggestion-of-why-rangers-man-overlooked/578876/If he really said that Luke Harris, who hasn't even played a senior game, is ahead of Lawrence then that's A/ insulting to Lawrence and B/ smells of trolling to be honest. He shouldn't need to improve, he's 28, which is still a decent age, and is a better player than Harris, Matondo, Tyler Roberts and probably Colwill. It's obvious it's some sort of personal gripe from Page. Lawrence will never play for Wales again, as by the time Page leaves he will be too old and overtaken by younger players anyway. I understand the sentiment of picking youngster with potential to give them experience and prepare them, however you should also select your best available players. Anyway, it's a pointless discussion....... |
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Post by insertname on Sept 12, 2022 22:14:21 GMT
Page is asked here about the omission of Lawrence and says there's been no drama. He mentions the likes of Luke Harris being ahead of him which I guess some people will scoff at. It's either a case of him deciding that he knows all about Lawrence, that as a 28yo he isn't going to improve, and that he isn't good enough, so he prefers youngsters with higher potential as backups to the first choice. Or there has been drama, and he thinks it would be better to keep it under wraps. Take it or leave it. insidefutbol.com/2022/09/12/no-history-national-team-boss-rejects-suggestion-of-why-rangers-man-overlooked/578876/If he really said that Luke Harris, who hasn't even played a senior game, is ahead of Lawrence then that's A/ insulting to Lawrence and B/ smells of trolling to be honest. He shouldn't need to improve, he's 28, which is still a decent age, and is a better player than Harris, Matondo, Tyler Roberts and probably Colwill. It's obvious it's some sort of personal gripe from Page. Lawrence will never play for Wales again, as by the time Page leaves he will be too old and overtaken by younger players anyway. I understand the sentiment of picking youngster with potential to give them experience and prepare them, however you should also select your best available players. Anyway, it's a pointless discussion....... Yeah for me that reads a bit like “say there is a beef without saying there is a beef”. But like you say, it’s a pointless discussion and really, as well as Lawrence is doing it’s still not well enough that him not being picked is an outright travesty. It’s possibly an indication of the manager not picking players on form, but do I see Lawrence as being the difference between getting out of the group at the World Cup or going home early? Not really. So for me it’s less about the player himself and more about the issue I have with Page’s MO for selection that potentially rewards players who aren’t doing well. |
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Post by jimexotic on Sept 12, 2022 23:09:15 GMT
You manage the vibe of a group of players, if Lawrence doesn't fit I trust Page, he's managed us to our first World Cup in 64 years and Lawrence didn't play any part in it. The togetherness and spirit of the squad is there for all to see, it's as vital as the match winning ability that some of our players have, it could be the difference in how far we get.
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Post by welshrover on Sept 12, 2022 23:32:25 GMT
Yeah right, Luke Harris who has never been near a senior Wales squad is ahead of Tom.
Just cut the crap, be honest and state the real reason.
Page is doing my head in now, just be honest!!
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Post by marsvolta on Sept 13, 2022 7:49:15 GMT
Page is asked here about the omission of Lawrence and says there's been no drama. He mentions the likes of Luke Harris being ahead of him which I guess some people will scoff at. It's either a case of him deciding that he knows all about Lawrence, that as a 28yo he isn't going to improve, and that he isn't good enough, so he prefers youngsters with higher potential as backups to the first choice. Or there has been drama, and he thinks it would be better to keep it under wraps. Take it or leave it. insidefutbol.com/2022/09/12/no-history-national-team-boss-rejects-suggestion-of-why-rangers-man-overlooked/578876/Interesting that he says that Colwill and Brennan Williams (and in the future possibly Harris) are in the squad ahead of Lawrence. If you look at social media you’d think that Johnny Williams, Chris Gunter and Matondo are the ones keeping him out. |
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