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Post by fiveattheback on Sept 13, 2022 9:40:48 GMT
You manage the vibe of a group of players, if Lawrence doesn't fit I trust Page, he's managed us to our first World Cup in 64 years and Lawrence didn't play any part in it. The togetherness and spirit of the squad is there for all to see, it's as vital as the match winning ability that some of our players have, it could be the difference in how far we get. Exactly, I really don't get people's obsession with Lawrence |
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Post by welshfootball on Sept 13, 2022 13:07:34 GMT
On paper he’s improved from his last involvement with Wales in the build up to the Euros. He captained a struggling Derby team and had one of his best seasons stats wise. Now he’s at Rangers and helped them qualify for the Champions League. I can see why people are wondering why he isn’t involved now versus pre Euros. Page sees Colwill, Johnson, and even Luke Harris as being ahead of Lawrence for the World Cup and most likely post tournament as well.
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Post by marsvolta on Sept 13, 2022 13:20:24 GMT
You manage the vibe of a group of players, if Lawrence doesn't fit I trust Page, he's managed us to our first World Cup in 64 years and Lawrence didn't play any part in it. The togetherness and spirit of the squad is there for all to see, it's as vital as the match winning ability that some of our players have, it could be the difference in how far we get. Exactly, I really don't get people's obsession with Lawrence To be fair, it’s not just Lawrence’s,there’s always been an obsession with who gets left out for some reason. In the past it’s been Bradshaw, Maxwell, Doidge, Jephcott and Evans amongst others (in each case it’s because of an apparent grudge as opposed to them simply not being selected) The only difference this time is that there seems to be some justification in the complaints in leaving Lawrence out as he’s playing so well. Page has explained that he sees Colwill and Brennan Johnson ahead of him and Harris for the future. We can either accept his word or think that there is some dastardly conspiracy to cover up a personal vendetta, the result will still be the same. We’ll always question the players left out, that’s the nature of social media. Even If we name a 30 man squad, there’ll be complaints about the 31st player who was left out. |
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Post by welshrover on Sept 13, 2022 16:51:37 GMT
[quote timestamp="1663062048" source="/post/249580/thread" author=" fiveattheback" Page has explained that he sees Colwill and Brennan Williams ahead of him and Harris for the future. Who is this Brennan Williams people keep talking about! |
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Post by marsvolta on Sept 13, 2022 19:22:29 GMT
[quote timestamp="1663062048" source="/post/249580/thread" author=" fiveattheback" Page has explained that he sees Colwill and Brennan Williams ahead of him and Harris for the future. Who is this Brennan Williams people keep talking about! Haha, edited. Brennan Williams Is a new hot shot that no one knows about, related to Jonny. He’s scoring goals for fun but Page is leaving him out, just for total spite for the lolz. |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Sept 14, 2022 7:39:40 GMT
Can the Lawrence love in finally be put to rest with the inclusion of Luke Harris over him?
It's clear we're looking to the future now & that Lawrence just isn't that big of a miss really
Luke Harris coming into the picture also shows it's not just a case of Page running a closed shop, there's method to who he considers and calls up
Time to leave Lawrence in the list of Bradshaws/Jephcotts/Doidges/Maxwells
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Post by insertname on Sept 14, 2022 8:42:17 GMT
Can the Lawrence love in finally be put to rest with the inclusion of Luke Harris over him? It's clear we're looking to the future now & that Lawrence just isn't that big of a miss really Luke Harris coming into the picture also shows it's not just a case of Page running a closed shop, there's method to who he considers and calls up Time to leave Lawrence in the list of Bradshaws/Jephcotts/Doidges/Maxwells Well it is a closed shop in the sense that he only tends to introduce new faces who have time on their side. He won’t just expand the player base to see what sticks in the same way that Giggs seemed open to. Harris realistically is not going to play and is basically just more YTS stuff from Page whereas Lawrence could at least come in and play a part we’re he picked. That’s not a criticism, just I’m not really sure it’s a bold expanding of the player base that challenges the “closed shop” narrative in the same way Giggs did with Moore. Arguably if Moore was eligible under Page he wouldn’t have called him up, Cardiff wouldn’t have signed him and he might have remained a journeyman duffer. I’ll be interested in what happens with Josh Sheehan if Page remains for another 1+ campaign because unlike Lawrence he plays in a position we need competition for and he’s now past the typical age range Page likes to introduce players at. He has called him up before but just the once so whether he will see any point in “investing” in him at age 27 over say, someone like Charlie Savage, it will be interesting to see. |
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Post by jbt95 on Sept 14, 2022 8:44:34 GMT
Isn’t Lawrence injured currently?
If he is still scoring for fun come March we’d be daft. He’s not finished at 29 next January. Moore only got involved at 27.
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Post by CrackityJones on Sept 14, 2022 8:54:32 GMT
Tom has 23 caps and has scored 3 goals, he is not in the same bracket as the other players listed above. He's already proved he can be an effective member of the squad.
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Post by iot on Sept 14, 2022 9:35:51 GMT
Can the Lawrence love in finally be put to rest with the inclusion of Luke Harris over him? It's clear we're looking to the future now & that Lawrence just isn't that big of a miss really Luke Harris coming into the picture also shows it's not just a case of Page running a closed shop, there's method to who he considers and calls up Time to leave Lawrence in the list of Bradshaws/Jephcotts/Doidges/Maxwells Well it is a closed shop in the sense that he only tends to introduce new faces who have time on their side. He won’t just expand the player base to see what sticks in the same way that Giggs seemed open to. Harris realistically is not going to play and is basically just more YTS stuff from Page whereas Lawrence could at least come in and play a part we’re he picked. That’s not a criticism, just I’m not really sure it’s a bold expanding of the player base that challenges the “closed shop” narrative in the same way Giggs did with Moore. Arguably if Moore was eligible under Page he wouldn’t have called him up, Cardiff wouldn’t have signed him and he might have remained a journeyman duffer. I’ll be interested in what happens with Josh Sheehan if Page remains for another 1+ campaign because unlike Lawrence he plays in a position we need competition for and he’s now past the typical age range Page likes to introduce players at. He has called him up before but just the once so whether he will see any point in “investing” in him at age 27 over say, someone like Charlie Savage, it will be interesting to see. Agree with much of what you say, but I don't disagree with Page's approach. We know what Tom Lawrence is all about. He can pull off the spectacular but is far more likely to ghost through games - in fact, I would say he's done so in the vast majority of his 20-odd caps. So scoring a goal every 7 or 8 games, but ghosting through the rest of them, isn't good enough. If we need to start him in the world cup or rely on him to come off the bench to make a difference, we're in serious trouble because he's shown that he's much more likely to have zero impact. I don't think he's someone we can rely on, and at his age that isn't going to change. We know we can rely on Dan James, Moore and even the likes of Joniesta to have an impact on a game, even if they're not contributing to goals directly. Tom Lawrence is more in the Bale/Johnson/Wilson mould of not offering much aside from the end product, but he offers that far less consistently. So, I think selecting players we can rely on supported by a group of promising youngsters is a reasonable approach. I take your point on Moore, we can't say for sure whether Page would have given him an opportunity, but there are a couple of key contextual differences. Giggs gave Moore his opportunity out of desperation. Our Euros campaign was derailing after losses to Hungary and Croatia and flukeing a win against Azerbaijan. The performances were terrible and lacked any shape up front. So Giggs gave him a chance in that Belarus friendly where Moore did really well and gave us a much better shape, and to be fair to Giggs he stuck with Moore away in Slovakia and the rest is history. But that's a completely different situation to the one we now find ourselves in. Page has come up with a winning formula so doesn't need to gamble on players for short-term gain when doing so could just as likely disrupt things in the short term, and there are no long-term benefits to boot. It makes more sense to continue with the things that have worked well, and freshen it up with players who will be the future of this team. |
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Post by marsvolta on Sept 14, 2022 10:06:39 GMT
Page has brought King, Thomas, Cabango, Denham, Mark Harris, Luke Harris, Broadhead, Johnson , Burns and Colwill into the squad since he took over.
It’s the worst closed shop ever.
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Post by iot on Sept 14, 2022 10:14:39 GMT
Page has brought King, Thomas, Cabango, Denham, Mark Harris, Luke Harris, Broadhead, Johnson , Burns and Colwill into the squad since he took over. It’s the worst closed shop ever. The selection of 27yo Wes Burns also slightly undermines insertname's point. He plays in a position where we lack depth, whereas Lawrence doesn't. Personally, I wouldn't have minded the likes of Beck and Stevens getting a call up ahead of Burns, but I'm guessing Page thinks they could do with another stint with the u21s. |
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Post by insertname on Sept 14, 2022 11:41:44 GMT
Well it is a closed shop in the sense that he only tends to introduce new faces who have time on their side. He won’t just expand the player base to see what sticks in the same way that Giggs seemed open to. Harris realistically is not going to play and is basically just more YTS stuff from Page whereas Lawrence could at least come in and play a part we’re he picked. That’s not a criticism, just I’m not really sure it’s a bold expanding of the player base that challenges the “closed shop” narrative in the same way Giggs did with Moore. Arguably if Moore was eligible under Page he wouldn’t have called him up, Cardiff wouldn’t have signed him and he might have remained a journeyman duffer. I’ll be interested in what happens with Josh Sheehan if Page remains for another 1+ campaign because unlike Lawrence he plays in a position we need competition for and he’s now past the typical age range Page likes to introduce players at. He has called him up before but just the once so whether he will see any point in “investing” in him at age 27 over say, someone like Charlie Savage, it will be interesting to see. Agree with much of what you say, but I don't disagree with Page's approach. We know what Tom Lawrence is all about. He can pull off the spectacular but is far more likely to ghost through games - in fact, I would say he's done so in the vast majority of his 20-odd caps. So scoring a goal every 7 or 8 games, but ghosting through the rest of them, isn't good enough. If we need to start him in the world cup or rely on him to come off the bench to make a difference, we're in serious trouble because he's shown that he's much more likely to have zero impact. I don't think he's someone we can rely on, and at his age that isn't going to change. We know we can rely on Dan James, Moore and even the likes of Joniesta to have an impact on a game, even if they're not contributing to goals directly. Tom Lawrence is more in the Bale/Johnson/Wilson mould of not offering much aside from the end product, but he offers that far less consistently. So, I think selecting players we can rely on supported by a group of promising youngsters is a reasonable approach. I take your point on Moore, we can't say for sure whether Page would have given him an opportunity, but there are a couple of key contextual differences. Giggs gave Moore his opportunity out of desperation. Our Euros campaign was derailing after losses to Hungary and Croatia and flukeing a win against Azerbaijan. The performances were terrible and lacked any shape up front. So Giggs gave him a chance in that Belarus friendly where Moore did really well and gave us a much better shape, and to be fair to Giggs he stuck with Moore away in Slovakia and the rest is history. But that's a completely different situation to the one we now find ourselves in. Page has come up with a winning formula so doesn't need to gamble on players for short-term gain when doing so could just as likely disrupt things in the short term, and there are no long-term benefits to boot. It makes more sense to continue with the things that have worked well, and freshen it up with players who will be the future of this team. That’s a fair appraisal. Like I say I’m not clamouring for Lawrence particularly because whilst I think he would deserve it on merit ahead of some youngsters (although if one youngster is to be given a chance then Harris justifies it albeit his sensational scoring is at youth level) would Lawrence make that big a difference? Probably not. I’m just debating Page’s selection approach in general and to be fair you do make a good point that in terms of need Page has proven that he can get results with a less expansive attitude to the player base so is perhaps more justified in not calling certain players up no matter their form. You can’t argue with his results so whilst I prefer a more meritocratic approach than making big statements about loyalty in the way he has done recently he has earned the right to pick players as he sees fit. It’s probably about the biggest thing I can criticise him on- that he seems to ignore players like Hughes at PNE and Lawrence but in the grand scheme of things compared to the level of success it’s not a huge deal. |
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Post by insertname on Sept 14, 2022 11:43:44 GMT
Page has brought King, Thomas, Cabango, Denham, Mark Harris, Luke Harris, Broadhead, Johnson , Burns and Colwill into the squad since he took over. It’s the worst closed shop ever. The selection of 27yo Wes Burns also slightly undermines insertname's point. He plays in a position where we lack depth, whereas Lawrence doesn't. Personally, I wouldn't have minded the likes of Beck and Stevens getting a call up ahead of Burns, but I'm guessing Page thinks they could do with another stint with the u21s. Good point about Burns. Maybe he’s mostly, but not entirely, ageist 😉 |
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Post by welshfootball on Sept 14, 2022 11:55:13 GMT
I would like Lawrence to be called in when fit but I think Page made it clear it is not going to happen either at LW/LM or attacking mid (where he’s playing for Rangers). Then there’s this quote from Page in the squad selection article. Would it apply to Lawrence, post World Cup, given Page’s comments about position order? I think the last sentence could be key. Lawrence is playing well but overall is it enough to benefit the squad? "I never say never - absolutely. I have pretty much got the squad in mind, of course. But the door is never closed. If someone is doing really well and I think it's going to benefit us, then he will be considered," he added. www.bbc.com/sport/football/62892402 |
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Post by welshrover on Sept 14, 2022 12:27:14 GMT
I suppose Tom will be looking forward to a meaningless post World Cup friendly, a lot of the "regulars" pull out and Tom gets the call.
"Hi Tom, Rob Page here, looking to put you in the team for the away friendly in Tajikistan "
Click, line goes dead.
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Post by iot on Sept 14, 2022 12:47:24 GMT
I suppose Tom will be looking forward to a meaningless post World Cup friendly, a lot of the "regulars" pull out and Tom gets the call. "Hi Tom, Rob Page here, looking to put you in the team for the away friendly in Tajikistan " Click, line goes dead. And in that hypothetical scenario, Page's selection decisions will have been entirely vindicated |
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Post by marsvolta on Sept 14, 2022 14:15:34 GMT
I suppose Tom will be looking forward to a meaningless post World Cup friendly, a lot of the "regulars" pull out and Tom gets the call. "Hi Tom, Rob Page here, looking to put you in the team for the away friendly in Tajikistan " Click, line goes dead. And in that hypothetical scenario, Page's selection decisions will have been entirely vindicated Exactly, we’ve long passed the days of those types of players luckily (not that Lawrence is guilty of that though, we don’t want to criticise him for a hypothetical scenario haha) |
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Post by insertname on Sept 14, 2022 14:59:34 GMT
I suppose Tom will be looking forward to a meaningless post World Cup friendly, a lot of the "regulars" pull out and Tom gets the call. "Hi Tom, Rob Page here, looking to put you in the team for the away friendly in Tajikistan " Click, line goes dead. And in that hypothetical scenario, Page's selection decisions will have been entirely vindicated I think that’s a bit simplistic. If you’ve got a bloke who hasn’t been picking you despite your form and all of a sudden an unfashionable fixture comes up on the outer extremities of UEFA, so unfashionable that his regulars are pulling out left right and centre so much so he has to turn to you, would you be eagerly packing your bag and leaving your family to jump on the next flight? For me in that situation any excitement at playing for my country would be tempered by pragmatism first and foremost. I wouldn’t want to be made a fool of and if I felt that the bloke in charge just wanted some warm bodies for one game before reverting to his favourites then I would be thinking long and hard about whether I wanted to be away from my family for the sake of someone who had no intention of ever picking me again. This, thankfully, is a very niche situation but as per the above could I blame Lawrence if out of the blue Page calls him up to play a far away fixture that his original players have all pulled out of? No I absolutely couldn’t. I think taking that as proof in and of itself of an attitude problem would also be a pretty poor take as it’s effectively leveraging emotional blackmail to motivate someone into being used “How dare you let your country down!” etc. Very unfair. A friendly specifically to give non-regulars a chance? That would be a different story. |
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Post by rangers15 on Sept 14, 2022 15:16:01 GMT
And in that hypothetical scenario, Page's selection decisions will have been entirely vindicated I think that’s a bit simplistic. If you’ve got a bloke who hasn’t been picking you despite your form and all of a sudden an unfashionable fixture comes up on the outer extremities of UEFA, so unfashionable that his regulars are pulling out left right and centre so much so he has to turn to you, would you be eagerly packing your bag and leaving your family to jump on the next flight? For me in that situation any excitement at playing for my country would be tempered by pragmatism first and foremost. I wouldn’t want to be made a fool of and if I felt that the bloke in charge just wanted some warm bodies for one game before reverting to his favourites then I would be thinking long and hard about whether I wanted to be away from my family for the sake of someone who had no intention of ever picking me again. This, thankfully, is a very niche situation but as per the above could I blame Lawrence if out of the blue Page calls him up to play a far away fixture that his original players have all pulled out of? No I absolutely couldn’t. I think taking that as proof in and of itself of an attitude problem would also be a pretty poor take as it’s effectively leveraging emotional blackmail to motivate someone into being used “How dare you let your country down!” etc. Very unfair. A friendly specifically to give non-regulars a chance? That would be a different story. one of the best things about this generation... probably since speed in fairness... is we just dont see the mass pull outs anymore. no matter who we are playing. it looks like everyone wants to be part of this squad, even if not getting minutes, and i bloody love em all for it. Would i pick Lawrence in the squad... probably. but i'm not bothered in the slightest that Page has gone with the players who got us there. if, hypothetically, page wasnt selecting someone like Moore who is a genuine point of difference, then it would be fair to question him. however, i just dont see lawrence being over and above the other options we have available. to be fair to Lawrence, (and correct me if i'm wrong) didnt Page play him at wingback? i think that would piss most forwards/attacking midfielders off... maybe this is where some of tensions come from. |
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Post by jimexotic on Sept 14, 2022 21:35:28 GMT
His side are getting battered every game in Europe now and they even sunk as low as playing God Save The King before the game tonight.
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Post by marsvolta on Sept 14, 2022 22:18:24 GMT
And in that hypothetical scenario, Page's selection decisions will have been entirely vindicated I think that’s a bit simplistic. If you’ve got a bloke who hasn’t been picking you despite your form and all of a sudden an unfashionable fixture comes up on the outer extremities of UEFA, so unfashionable that his regulars are pulling out left right and centre so much so he has to turn to you, would you be eagerly packing your bag and leaving your family to jump on the next flight? For me in that situation any excitement at playing for my country would be tempered by pragmatism first and foremost. I wouldn’t want to be made a fool of and if I felt that the bloke in charge just wanted some warm bodies for one game before reverting to his favourites then I would be thinking long and hard about whether I wanted to be away from my family for the sake of someone who had no intention of ever picking me again. This, thankfully, is a very niche situation but as per the above could I blame Lawrence if out of the blue Page calls him up to play a far away fixture that his original players have all pulled out of? No I absolutely couldn’t. I think taking that as proof in and of itself of an attitude problem would also be a pretty poor take as it’s effectively leveraging emotional blackmail to motivate someone into being used “How dare you let your country down!” etc. Very unfair. A friendly specifically to give non-regulars a chance? That would be a different story. As this is a totally hypothetical scenario involving us playing a made up unglamorous friendly, with our usual loyal squad suddenly all pulling out because they suddenly have stopped fancying it, added to the possibility of Lawrence pulling out when finally called up,I don’t think we need to over analyse it. Haha. |
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Post by welshrover on Sept 15, 2022 7:11:39 GMT
I think that’s a bit simplistic. If you’ve got a bloke who hasn’t been picking you despite your form and all of a sudden an unfashionable fixture comes up on the outer extremities of UEFA, so unfashionable that his regulars are pulling out left right and centre so much so he has to turn to you, would you be eagerly packing your bag and leaving your family to jump on the next flight? For me in that situation any excitement at playing for my country would be tempered by pragmatism first and foremost. I wouldn’t want to be made a fool of and if I felt that the bloke in charge just wanted some warm bodies for one game before reverting to his favourites then I would be thinking long and hard about whether I wanted to be away from my family for the sake of someone who had no intention of ever picking me again. This, thankfully, is a very niche situation but as per the above could I blame Lawrence if out of the blue Page calls him up to play a far away fixture that his original players have all pulled out of? No I absolutely couldn’t. I think taking that as proof in and of itself of an attitude problem would also be a pretty poor take as it’s effectively leveraging emotional blackmail to motivate someone into being used “How dare you let your country down!” etc. Very unfair. A friendly specifically to give non-regulars a chance? That would be a different story. As this is a totally hypothetical scenario involving us playing a made up unglamorous friendly, with our usual loyal squad suddenly all pulling out because they suddenly have stopped fancying it, added to the possibility of Lawrence pulling out when finally called up,I don’t think we need to over analyse it. Haha. To be honest having never been to Tajikistan I was looking forward to it 😊😊 |
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Post by marsvolta on Sept 15, 2022 7:20:07 GMT
As this is a totally hypothetical scenario involving us playing a made up unglamorous friendly, with our usual loyal squad suddenly all pulling out because they suddenly have stopped fancying it, added to the possibility of Lawrence pulling out when finally called up,I don’t think we need to over analyse it. Haha. To be honest having never been to Tajikistan I was looking forward to it 😊😊 Don’t need a Hayya card or anything |
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Post by welshrover on Oct 4, 2022 20:00:20 GMT
Debate now over, out injured until December.
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Post by manulike on Oct 4, 2022 22:14:26 GMT
Debate now over, out injured until December.  |
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Post by marsvolta on Oct 4, 2022 23:03:40 GMT
Debate now over, out injured until December. But..but….but … closed shop…….something something…..Page too loyal…..something about grudges. What are we going to talk about every time a squad gets announced now? We need need a new player so we can be outraged at their omission from the next squad. |
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Post by bobbyghoul on Oct 5, 2022 9:07:02 GMT
Debate now over, out injured until December. But..but….but … closed shop…….something something…..Page too loyal…..something about grudges. What are we going to talk about every time a squad gets announced now? We need need a new player to be outraged at their omission from the next squad. Tom Lockyer 👍 |
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Post by marsvolta on Oct 5, 2022 9:45:06 GMT
But..but….but … closed shop…….something something…..Page too loyal…..something about grudges. What are we going to talk about every time a squad gets announced now? We need need a new player to be outraged at their omission from the next squad. Tom Lockyer 👍 I reckon Ryan Hedges is front runner |
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Post by insertname on Oct 5, 2022 17:31:25 GMT
Debate now over, out injured until December. But..but….but … closed shop…….something something…..Page too loyal…..something about grudges. What are we going to talk about every time a squad gets announced now? We need need a new player so we can be outraged at their omission from the next squad. We’ll fear not because I have it on good authority that Yankti Mooschov is finally willing to listen to what the FAW have to offer… |
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