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Post by insertname on Aug 26, 2019 17:12:06 GMT
Oi trappy- Bristol Rovers aren’t *that* bad!  We finished just outside the relegation places last season but that’s Because we struggled to score goals, our defence (of which Lockyer was a vital part) was one of the best in the league. I think Rovers fans have only come to appreciate how good he actually was since he left... Lockyer seems to have had a great start at Charlton. I thought you and other rovers fans didn't rate him? That's why I'd assumed he'd reached his ceiling at league 1. But from the start he's had at championship level and considering his vast experience, he would certainly merit a start with mepham ahead of rodon. It's a 50-50 call for me. I get the impression that rodon has much more potential but that he does have a few shaky moments in him - all we need to do is concede from such a moment early on and there could be a shock on the cards! Well, I don’t get to many games these days I haven’t lived in Bristol for many a year but from what I gathered there was an under-estimation of Lockyer as he had a spell of bad form last season and we lost a lot of games before Christmas. The manager left and things picked up in the year, we ground out wins and statistically Rovers defence was actually very solid. Early this season there was a lot of complaint about the lack of pace in the defence since Lockyer left, Rovers are now having to play three at the back as a result. A lot are still unhappy that he wound his contract down and left for nowt, he has just passed the tribunal age too and it looks like that was a calculated move on his part, ensuring so he could leave on a complete free with not even any compo due to age. That doesn’t sit well, especially considering the debts the club has and he was perhaps our only majorly sellable asset. It’s all fun and games when Ramsey does it to a club like Arsenal but when players do it to clubs at a lower level who have far greater need of the money I can see why he’s not particularly respected for being that calculating. |
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Post by alarch on Aug 26, 2019 20:27:52 GMT
I don't really know enough about Lockyear to be able to assess his ability, but my understanding is that he's very much a footballing centre half, which is great. I've been monitoring Charlton a lot this season, mainly with Joniesta in mind, and Lockyear has been a bit variable in his match ratings. Even in their last match where he was MOTM the fans describe him as often making up for his own errors with last ditch blocks. If he starts ahead of Rodon I'll try not to grumble too much - but it would be difficult to understand, especially seeing that he hasn't played alongside Mepham, as Rodon has on many an occassion, and I also don't recall Lockyear being linked with a move to Man City, or a team of that ilk - which is a reflection of his potential vis a vis Rodon's.
I think the idea that Rodon has been inconsistent is a bit of a nonsense to be honest. In fact, what's impressed me the most about him, is just how consistent he's been, pretty much from the off last season. He has an indifferent first half (and excellent second) against Preston - but so did the whole Swansea team, who, unusually, didn't cope well collectively with a high press. But apart from that blip and one bad pass against Birmingham (where he averted the danger with a block) he's played to a consistent high standard. I would select him ahead of Lockyear or Lawrence, but Ben Davies might be the better option, with Taylor at left back.
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Post by iot on Aug 26, 2019 20:44:00 GMT
I don't really know enough about Lockyear to be able to assess his ability, but my understanding is that he's very much a footballing centre half, which is great. I've been monitoring Charlton a lot this season, mainly with Joniesta in mind, and Lockyear has been a bit variable in his match ratings. Even in their last match where he was MOTM the fans describe him as often making up for his own errors with last ditch blocks. If he starts ahead of Rodon I'll try not to grumble too much - but it would be difficult to understand, especially seeing that he hasn't played alongside Mepham, as Rodon has on many an occassion, and I also don't recall Lockyear being linked with a move to Man City, or a team of that ilk - which is a reflection of his potential vis a vis Rodon's. I think the idea that Rodon has been inconsistent is a bit of a nonsense to be honest. In fact, what's impressed me the most about him, is just how consistent he's been, pretty much from the off last season. He has an indifferent first half (and excellent second) against Preston - but so did the whole Swansea team, who, unusually, didn't cope well collectively with a high press. But apart from that blip and one bad pass against Birmingham (where he averted the danger with a block) he's played to a consistent high standard. I would select him ahead of Lockyear or Lawrence, but Ben Davies might be the better option, with Taylor at left back. Fair enough, but that's clearly not a universal view among swans fans. Otherwise he wouldn't have had to quit social media because of criticisms from his own fans. |
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Post by barry on Aug 26, 2019 21:30:24 GMT
I don't really know enough about Lockyear to be able to assess his ability, but my understanding is that he's very much a footballing centre half, which is great. I've been monitoring Charlton a lot this season, mainly with Joniesta in mind, and Lockyear has been a bit variable in his match ratings. Even in their last match where he was MOTM the fans describe him as often making up for his own errors with last ditch blocks. If he starts ahead of Rodon I'll try not to grumble too much - but it would be difficult to understand, especially seeing that he hasn't played alongside Mepham, as Rodon has on many an occassion, and I also don't recall Lockyear being linked with a move to Man City, or a team of that ilk - which is a reflection of his potential vis a vis Rodon's. I think the idea that Rodon has been inconsistent is a bit of a nonsense to be honest. In fact, what's impressed me the most about him, is just how consistent he's been, pretty much from the off last season. He has an indifferent first half (and excellent second) against Preston - but so did the whole Swansea team, who, unusually, didn't cope well collectively with a high press. But apart from that blip and one bad pass against Birmingham (where he averted the danger with a block) he's played to a consistent high standard. I would select him ahead of Lockyear or Lawrence, but Ben Davies might be the better option, with Taylor at left back. Fair enough, but that's clearly not a universal view among swans fans. Otherwise he wouldn't have had to quit social media because of criticisms from twatters claiming to be his own fans. Corrected for you. He hasn't been inconsistent defensively. Hardly put a foot wrong. Just his distribution has been poor sometimes. TBH I'd prefer if he didn't play against Azerbaijan or at all in this campaign. Keep him fit for the Swans. A Swans promotion would be great for Welsh football and let's face it this campaign is more or less over and hopefully Giggs will be gone at the end. |
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Post by manulike on Aug 26, 2019 22:23:21 GMT
Fair enough, but that's clearly not a universal view among swans fans. Otherwise he wouldn't have had to quit social media because of criticisms from twatters claiming to be his own fans. Corrected for you. He hasn't been inconsistent defensively. Hardly put a foot wrong. Just his distribution has been poor sometimes.That. |
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Post by alarch on Aug 27, 2019 7:33:55 GMT
Just to clarify iot that I wasn't haven't a go at you. Like Barry I'm frustrated that the views of a tiny number of cretinous Swansea fans (supposedly) have had their opinions inflated by the mainstream media. Very few fans on the main Swansea forums have echoed those sentiments - and they are the usual moronic idiots. Really, there is nothing in it - and you can take my word for it having watched every Swansea game this season, including pre-season. Even Rodon's distribution has been more than adequate - 96% pass completion against Birmingham (and 88.3% over the season, better than Van Der Hoorn's 86.4% - probably Swansea's best player so far this season) doesn't suggest a player struggling to find his man.
Unlike Barry I haven't given up on this campaign - especially with the likelihood of a second bite of the cherry via the play-offs. Rodon could well play a big role in that. As for the Azerbaijan game I think I'd go for experience in Davies, but Rodon would be my second choice.
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Post by CrackityJones on Aug 28, 2019 19:00:33 GMT
Loads of Welsh lads involved for Swansea tonight:
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Post by barry on Aug 28, 2019 20:30:51 GMT
Rushesha comes on to make his debut. Just turned 17.
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Post by manulike on Aug 28, 2019 21:41:15 GMT
Fantastic to see young Jack Evans come on, especially after the horrid year he had last year.
Welcome back, Jack!
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Post by iantov on Aug 29, 2019 20:10:10 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 23:22:01 GMT
I think around half of that is covered by PL grants. Even so I expect it to be cut back to cat two or three in the next couple of years if we don't get promoted, as our annual turnover will be less than £20m when the parachute payments run out. Cat One would be a significant percentage of our operating budget, and would mean we'd have to produce and sell players every year just to avoid racking up debt (more so than normal, Championship clubs lose big money before player sales as a matter of course). Cat Two could save a million a year, cat three more.
When we're not spending money to buy in youth players (like DJ and Oli, and a couple of dozen others who have now been forgotten) we can still produce as a lower category setup, as Leeds and Bristol City have been doing (Jack Clarke and Lloyd Kelly two big recent sales from cat two academies). Coaches were already let go in the summer as we were overstaffed for cat one standards, and the fixture list is shorter and of a lower standard due to relegation to PL2 division 2.
It's harder to justify the extra expense when you can't make full use of the advantages, like poaching kids and Checkatrade Trophy games. Players will spend less time in the u23s squad because we can't afford to keep 50 development players on the books until they're 21/22, and the good ones will get chances in senior competition much earlier than they used to (not that any did, our record was very poor).
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Post by alarch on Aug 30, 2019 10:17:48 GMT
Good post jaspert, but I think unduly pessimistic. I think about £1 million of a Cat One academy's funding comes from the Premier League, and the minimum spend is in the region of £2.5 million. So, Swansea could reduce their net expenditure on their academy to less than £2 million a year before considering downgrading it. I think you underestimate the appeal to young and upcoming players of joining a Cat 1 academy - especially as there is now a clear pathway into the first team. After all Dan James joined from Hull's academy (Cat 3 at the time, with Swansea's a Cat 2 - but well on the way to becoming a Cat 1 academy). Would players of his calibre be convinced to up sticks to join a Cat 2 or 3 academy - especially if it's been downgraded? What sort of message would downgrading send?
As long as the academy can make a profit year-on-year on its running costs it wouldn't make any business sense, let alone a footballing one, to downgrade it. Having just made well in excess of £30 million this season alone from the sale of academy products McBurnie and James it's a no-brainer. Chances are that the likes of Rodon and Roberts will move up the footballing tree at the end of the season - so another very fat profit is on the cards.
A very big positive from a Welsh perspective of the cutbacks on academy expenditure is, as jaspert has alluded to, the reduction in the outlay on players being brought into the academy from other clubs - players that are likely to be not Welsh (James is the notable exception). This is already reflected in the composition of the age group sides this season, with the U23s in particular fielding sides that are at times mainly Welsh qualified. That can only be good news for the Welsh national side.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2019 12:24:06 GMT
There isn't a minimum spend in the documents I've seen, just recommended estimates that are now 8 years old. Available facilities and number of qualified coaches/coaching hours provided are where actual minimums are enforced for category status. Not all Cat One academies are made equal - literally every club I've looked at is overstaffed and overspending the minimums by quite some distance. It's an arms race to attract young footballers, if you're a basic Cat One outfit you're not attracting better players than well-funded Cat Two ones with a proven development pathway. Or Brentford who run a B team outside the EPPP structure, and still attract and develop quality players on a regular basis (took one of our u18s goalkeepers Nathan Shepperd in the summer).
The problem with the "if the academy is profitable, don't downgrade" line of thought is that the club as a whole isn't profitable (no Championship club is these days), so any way to make the academy more profitable is good for sustainability of the club. When selling players we don't want to be in a position where we have to sell to balance the books: desperation drives down prices, the DJ money was the only reason we could then negotiate Sheff Utd up from £10m to £20m for Oli.
We took in £35m this summer (not including potential future clauses) but probably lost half of that over the course of last season. It'll be the same again this season if we don't get rid of Ayew (min. £5m for the season for him if he's playing and getting his bonuses). You can't look at one branch of the club in isolation, the whole has to be accounted for (literally).
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Post by alarch on Aug 30, 2019 13:58:38 GMT
You make some perfectly valid points jaspert, but the sort of sums we're talking about are modest, even by Championship standards - especially if you factor in the fact that Category Two academies attract a lower level of subsidy from the footballing authorities. Brentford's model is a risky one, although all credit to them, they've made a pretty good fist of it, by arranging ad hoc fixtures with academies across Europe. I suspect that they chose that option because the up-front capital costs of developing a Cat 1 academy was prohibitive, and they feared having their existing youth players poached by higher level academies. As a consequence they're fishing in a much smaller pool of academy failures and senior level cast-offs. Swansea on the other hand have already endured the financial pain of the capital costs in creating the facilities mandated by Cat 1 status. The running costs are pretty small fry in comparison to the setup costs.
Should Swansea downgrade to a Cat 2 or Cat 3 academy then any player showing any sort of promise is likely to be prised away for risible levels of compensation. How much did Swansea get from Man City for Emyr Huws' signature? Not a lot. Things would have to be in a very sorry state financially for Swansea to need to devalue all the hard work and expenditure needed to get Cat 1 status.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2019 14:34:09 GMT
Brentford's model is a consequence of their location - they can't realistically compete with every London club for kids in their catchment area, so why run u13s and u15s teams? - but they're simple proof that category status is no impediment to bringing in talented young players.
Brentford have a turnover of ~£13m a year, and even with a strict wage structure in place spend twice that maintaining a Championship squad. So we're not talking modest sums. An extra £3m a year for a big academy would be debt they wouldn't be able to comfortably manage. They make small annual losses despite selling £10-15m starlets regularly.
The facilities don't disappear unless we sell them. There's no rules that say Cat Two academies can't use the second jacuzzi or the "indoor barn" that needed a second floor built by Martin Morgan's construction company (some of the old shareholders made a mint of those projects. One club's financial pain, another man's financial pleasure).
Poaching players happens, and the powers that be seem to want to make it even easier and cheaper for big clubs to do it in the future, but few of our emerging players would have realistically been prized away before signing on professionally with us. Rodon, possibly. Cullen was on a lucrative pre-contract yonks ago, which looks to have been a waste. Maybe Ali-Al-Hamadi in the u18s wouldn't have come in from Tranmere, and Oli Cooper's dad has connections so maybe he would go elsewhere. Many like Connor came through the age groups when we didn't have Cat One protection, and here they remained.
I hope we keep Cat One status for as long as possible, but it's not going to be the end of the world (of player development) if we downgrade, as many fans who never paid any attention to the academy before last season have started to crow. It's a lot of money for an ever-smaller range of benefits. As Stuart Webber said in one of his interviews, you pick the academy level to match the club, it's not a simple case of more money in = more players out. Being in the Championship is a massive boost to our development potential in and of itself. We could easily bring through 2 players a year for the next 3 or 4 years with the players on pro terms already (plus Rushesha).
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Post by manulike on Aug 31, 2019 13:32:17 GMT
TOP TOP TOP OF THE LEAGUE
Massive display from Connor today. Messy goal, but they all count ;-)
#WishILivedInSwansea ...
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Post by barry on Aug 31, 2019 15:57:01 GMT
1-0 gritty win.
Rodon and Roberts superb.
Cooper can do no wrong. Sub scored again.
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Post by alarch on Aug 31, 2019 17:11:06 GMT
Roberts was excellent, but Rodon better still. Good timing to hit top form.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2019 18:22:42 GMT
We won't win the league with a record points total playing like that every week let me tell you.
More than a hint of the Garry Monk 8th place season about things so far.
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Post by jbt95 on Sept 1, 2019 7:21:20 GMT
We won't win the league with a record points total playing like that every week let me tell you. More than a hint of the Garry Monk 8th place season about things so far.  We played not amazingly but managed to keep a clean sheet at Elland Road and won. Last year we probably would've lost that game. It's August, it's a work in progress. Guess you can't please everybody. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2019 8:35:57 GMT
Jaspert certainly needs more jam in his doughnut,jeez.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2019 9:59:09 GMT
The 8th place Monk season was considered a great success at the time. There was an erosion of principles and we eventually got sussed out but it had the same flashes of quality, clinical finishing and last-ditch defending getting us results consistently. Mark of champions to play poorly and win, as they say.
Think our luck will turn in the next few games. Bristol would be typical. Too many fans now thinking we're the best team in the league when let's be honest Derby, QPR, Leeds and Preston all could have turned us over and will be kicking themselves that they didn't. Northampton as well was a shambles until the late changes.
Need to start looking after the ball better and passing teams off the park again, at least when we're already winning. Preferred us under Potter with Naughton and Byers in the side instead of Fulton and Bidwell.
Enjoy being top of the league/unbeaten etc. but we should be aiming to stay there. There's enough talent in the squad. Anything less than playoffs would be a serious failure (not just financially).
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Post by manulike on Sept 1, 2019 13:22:05 GMT
Jaspert certainly needs more jam in his doughnut,jeez. I tried to Google that ... and I couldn't possibly repeat what the Urban Dictionary says about "jam doughnut" - it would make our pendragon blush ;-) |
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Post by alarch on Sept 1, 2019 14:12:12 GMT
I think you're looking at things a bit gloomily jaspert, but I understand your perspective. I'd like to think that Cooper is close in philosophy to Potter than to Monk, but only time will tell. But I agree, Swansea have been somewhat lucky so far, and if Swansea go further down the pragamatic route then the Swansea Way will ultimately break down - as it did under Monk and his successors. My gut feeling is that Cooper understands this, but only time will tell.
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Post by fiveattheback on Sept 1, 2019 16:17:01 GMT
Its always nice to see Leeds lose
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Post by pendragon on Sept 1, 2019 23:43:55 GMT
Jaspert certainly needs more jam in his doughnut,jeez. I tried to Google that ... and I couldn't possibly repeat what the Urban Dictionary says about "jam doughnut" - it would make our pendragon blush ;-) Not as good as custard? 😆 |
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Post by pendragon on Sept 1, 2019 23:52:39 GMT
A 1-0 win against one of last season's top finishers at Elland Road, is not to be sniffed at.
This was probably one of the toughest games that they're likely to face all season.
I appreciate that it's early days and they've lost their "Bale" to United, but the early signs look good. They have been superb so far.
Like any other team, I expect them to fall by the wayside at some point but the key lies in how they pick themselves back up again afterwards.
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Post by iot on Sept 2, 2019 12:23:29 GMT
I don't think Swansea will inevitably fall short. They probably do have one of the strongest teams in the championship. Their keeper looks to be a shrewd acquisition; with roberts, VDH and rodon in defence that's probably up there with one of the best in the division; matt grimes in midfield was their player of the season last year; ayew's one of the best players in the league if he can do what we know he's capable of - similar with borja; and celina's extremely talented and made a very good start. I haven't watched any of the games, but whilst in some they've ground out results, in others it's been the classic swansea way e.g. the 3-0 vs birmingham. So it seems slightly unfair to accuse them of going down the laudrup/monk route.
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Post by welshiron on Sept 2, 2019 14:03:51 GMT
They have managed to keep more players than many thought.
The manager also seems to have hit the ground running.
Personally thought they would struggle but after this start they need to be pushing for play offs.
I wonder if there will be a few quid available in January if they have a good chance of going up.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2019 16:39:03 GMT
They have managed to keep more players than many thought. The manager also seems to have hit the ground running. Personally thought they would struggle but after this start they need to be pushing for play offs. I wonder if there will be a few quid available in January if they have a good chance of going up. No chance, we're already overstretched due to not being able to shift Borja, Ayew and a few others. We're already effectively gambling on promotion, just not by choice. |
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