|
Giggs
Nov 3, 2020 20:15:58 GMT
via mobile
Post by cadno on Nov 3, 2020 20:15:58 GMT
Disagree about Coleman, who could he have called up? Yep I agree. He would find it difficult to summon the likes of Joe Ledley, Sam Vokes and Andy King now as they've been out of the game for so long. I'd welcome Coleman back with open arms if Giggs left, however I am concerned about how he'd marry up his football philosophy with our play. I'd be glad of a conservative approach in high-stakes games with the likes of France or Spain but I'd hope that he'd adopt a more pacey style against league B or C teams. It's annoying because whoever comes in will have different ideas. Which is why I think Rob Page might be the best option, at least he's worked with Giggs and might not change things too much.
|
|
|
Giggs
Nov 3, 2020 20:19:46 GMT
Post by dlwilliams on Nov 3, 2020 20:19:46 GMT
Nathan Jones - dim diolch. Mike Flynn - In the future maybe, yes! I thought Nathan Jones had a reputation of playing progressive stuff at Luton?
|
|
|
Giggs
Nov 3, 2020 20:23:28 GMT
Post by gwernybwch on Nov 3, 2020 20:23:28 GMT
Exactly an innocent man who has lost his job. It’s alright for Giggs because he won’t starve, but this could be all your sons in a few years, their jobs lost based of an accusation. I have no less than three friends who have been accused of rape and been completely exonerated by Police. One was arrested whilst at work leaving his employer to terminate him. It didn’t take the Police long to figure out his crazy ex wife has been told to lie by a women’s aid charity so she could get him out of their house and have it for herself. His career was ruined though, based on an accusation that was patently proven to be false. Accusations are given far too much power in this country until they have been proved to be correct. But the problem is - regardless of his guilt - if this goes to trial, we're looking at a resolution sometime in the second half of 2021. My local magistrates is booking March/April trials as we speak. He'd be very lucky to appear before June. Presumably FAW think he's unable to fulfil his duties right now, so what's the solution? (1) Robert Page leads us into the Euros, (2) FAW decide that Giggs can lead the team having been charged, (3) he isn't charged, or (4) he's dismissed. (1) is a bad idea, (2) is very controversial, (3), isn't in FAWs gift, and (4) is possible but tricky. It's very messy. A good analysis of the current situation, but it doesn't take into account the financial and emotional aspects. (4) Tricky and potentially costly in legal fees, but at least will keep the sponsors paying during this time. Not sure that the FAW board will have the guts to do it, after all Giggs is "their man". (3) The best case scenario. Although even then the FAW's brand is severely dented. What sponsors won't want their brand linked with a man that continually expresses poor judgement in his choice of sexual partners. (2) A scenario where the sponsors will leave in their droves. The FAW's brand will be severely tarnished. One other option is that Giggs steps down to concentrate on defending the allegations. Highly unlikely based on Giggs' ego and that he isn't likely to get any other employment until this is all sorted (1) A VERY bad idea, but probably the only one that the FAW can afford to do :-(
|
|
|
Post by allezlesrouges on Nov 3, 2020 20:40:49 GMT
Difficult one. Do we go with someone experienced for the Euros and undo our long term vision or appoint someone not ready for it and sacrifice the Euros. Coleman, although I enjoyed it at the time, would be a massive step backwards. Didn’t give new players a go, Vokes would become the first Welsh player to get 100 caps.Hughes, same I though he was amazing until the ‘06 campaign, left us with no pathway for young players. Took Toshack the best part of a decade to get fixed. Pulis is one of those managers you don’t mind in the Premier League because he adds contrast, but nowhere near a Wales manager. Osian Roberts in a comfortable job, can see him being a top contender but there’s no chance I’d apply if I was him. It seems Morocco have been good to him, if he applies and gets rejected again his job in Morocco becomes impossible. Rob Page, seems like they were grooming him to be in the frame in the future but would not be an inspired appointment. Carl Robinson, very much a student of the game but never had a high profile role. Do you honestly think Coleman would start picking Vokes again? Come on! I'll say this, Coleman wasn't great at giving new players a go and stuck to the same players for us (btw this approach did work). He didn't really have a choice at the time either, but you could say he wasn't the best at bringing in new faces However, what he was brilliant at was getting the most out of the pieces he had to work with. You think that he'd come back in with a new set of improved pieces in front of him and want to call in Ledley from Australia for no good reason? If you honestly believe that I think you underestimate him as a manager If you've ever heard him talk at length about his time as Wales manager he explains his tactics perfectly (check out his Oxford union speech). He's said he saw us as a team with 2 world class players that he needed to get the most out of, with a hard-working yet limited squad of players who were playing top-flight football. The wing back formation was purely used to get the best out of our two best players, and to give us defensive solidity. If he came in now and stuck to the same principles of getting the best out of the squad he has in front of him, there's no way in a million years he ignores all the work Giggs has done, and how we've been getting results with a young group of players. And there's no way he'd pick all of the old guard who have either fallen down the pyramid or stopped playing regularly To say he'd be a massive step back is way off the mark. A realistic criticism might be that he'd approach the fringe squad differently by cutting the likes of Brennan or Levitt from the squad in favour of maybe Hedges or MacDonald in order to give them game time in the youth setups. But some argue on here for us to select in this way anyway & overall I don't think it would make much of a difference to the core squad Not saying everyone has to be for Coleman coming back, but I just think saying he'd revert to picking Gunter, Vokes and Taylor just isn't going to happen, and isn't a valid reason not to have him back
|
|
|
Post by gwernybwch on Nov 3, 2020 20:44:04 GMT
It is going to be Rob Page. End of.
There is not going to be an income from ticket sales until heaven knows when, the sponsors are going to be leaving in their droves. Giggs' isn't going to leave quietly and is going to almost break the association in paying him off or paying the legal fees if he is sacked. There just isn't going to be the budget for anyone else.
However here's a real left field suggestion. How about Jayne Ludlow? She will be affordable, has international experience, knows the FAW setup.
|
|
|
Giggs
Nov 3, 2020 21:08:11 GMT
via mobile
Post by conwy10 on Nov 3, 2020 21:08:11 GMT
Quite a few asking my opinions about Coleman so I’ll just do a fresh one instead of writing 3 more. We were the most closed shop to players ever, it was so frustrating to see.
Our centre back partnership now has what 20 caps between 4 players? He never replenished the well. Chester we can’t help injuries but he never had long term successor to Williams, he was living in the moment too much. CM he had Huws in mind which I’ll give him credit for and Woodburn further forward. How long was Tom Lawrence in the squad without making an appearance? About a year I think.
We persevered with average players who barely contributed anything to the cause. I know he has his supporters on here, not sure why, but King gave us 50 odd 4/10 performances. Vokes scored one in 3 years? Church had a similar record if not worse.
Since Giggs came in he’s found us a second choice keeper, we have Roberts and a young challenger, 3 young CB fighting it out, RND for Davies, 4 young CM with Allen to return, attacking players all over the place, a striker who can score a goal.
I’ve heard him say we had 2 world class players too, but when was the last time either of them scored... or even played a whole match. We aren’t a team set up to draw unless Bale or Ramsey score anymore. Sure we have limitations but we have people contributing all over the pitch.
|
|
|
Giggs
Nov 3, 2020 21:15:17 GMT
Post by dai on Nov 3, 2020 21:15:17 GMT
Regarding the FAW sacking Giggs off being financially difficult, that may be easier than we think. I'd be very surprised if there's nothing in his contract regarding professional conduct, and this incident could be deemed a breach of contract.
On his replacement, who knows.........
I'm not sure on Coleman like so many are. I'm not sure if Coleman and the FAW left things on a bad note? Also, this is almost a completely different squad to that of which Coleman had so there's no real continuity. There's also the worry that Coleman may reinstate his 'favourites' - Vokes, Taylor, Williams, Gunter, which at the moment could be detrimental.
It's an absolute mess either way, and I hope is that the boys can hold it together for the upcoming matches.
|
|
|
Giggs
Nov 3, 2020 21:23:11 GMT
Post by impeachabull on Nov 3, 2020 21:23:11 GMT
But the problem is - regardless of his guilt - if this goes to trial, we're looking at a resolution sometime in the second half of 2021. My local magistrates is booking March/April trials as we speak. He'd be very lucky to appear before June. Presumably FAW think he's unable to fulfil his duties right now, so what's the solution? (1) Robert Page leads us into the Euros, (2) FAW decide that Giggs can lead the team having been charged, (3) he isn't charged, or (4) he's dismissed. (1) is a bad idea, (2) is very controversial, (3), isn't in FAWs gift, and (4) is possible but tricky. It's very messy. A good analysis of the current situation, but it doesn't take into account the financial and emotional aspects. (4) Tricky and potentially costly in legal fees, but at least will keep the sponsors paying during this time. Not sure that the FAW board will have the guts to do it, after all Giggs is "their man". (3) The best case scenario. Although even then the FAW's brand is severely dented. What sponsors won't want their brand linked with a man that continually expresses poor judgement in his choice of sexual partners. (2) A scenario where the sponsors will leave in their droves. The FAW's brand will be severely tarnished. One other option is that Giggs steps down to concentrate on defending the allegations. Highly unlikely based on Giggs' ego and that he isn't likely to get any other employment until this is all sorted (1) A VERY bad idea, but probably the only one that the FAW can afford to do :-( Yeah, mostly agree. It's a horribly messy situation with no obvious way out.
|
|
|
Giggs
Nov 3, 2020 21:23:58 GMT
Post by jbt95 on Nov 3, 2020 21:23:58 GMT
When the ship is steady and preparations can be made I think it's safer to take a chance on a young manager like Giggs or Bellamy. We do have time on our side (not playing again until March), but we are half-way through a cycle with a tournament to prepare for Given this, bringing in someone like Bellamy would bring huge risks, and no time for a bedding in period. I think the same can be said for most Welsh managers in the pyramid at the moment, most just starting out in their careers For this reason I'd favour Coleman on a short term basis. He'd immediately steady the ship with his experience and reputation in the post. He'd breathe belief into the squad from day one, and any doubts of an uncertain transition would be immediately put to rest. He knows the setup, he knows the players, most of the players pleaded with him to stay, and most of the young players would have looked up to him He is out of work & seems to need a boost to pick his management career back up, a good showing at the Euros/WC qualifiers would do just that. Seems like it could be a mutually beneficial arrangement I'd take him on the basis that he will be in charge for the upcoming WC qualifiers, and the Euros. If he qualifies us for the WC he can have that too. Essentially put him in place for the remainder of what would have been Giggs's contract. But I'd also have the stipulation that beyond that, regardless what happens at the Euros/WC we'd be looking to employ someone new from 2022 onwards. I think this also gives us a better idea of how it's going for all the other options like Bellamy or Jones to see how their careers are progressing After Coleman, I think I'd like to see Bellamy have a go, but for me now isn't the right time for him, or someone of that profile to take charge. Too much of an ask The World Cup is in November/December 2022 though, so if we did qualify for it whoever was in charge for the qualifiers would need to be in charge for the Nations League that concludes before it. So basically a 2-year appointment.
|
|
|
Giggs
Nov 3, 2020 21:29:20 GMT
Post by allezlesrouges on Nov 3, 2020 21:29:20 GMT
When the ship is steady and preparations can be made I think it's safer to take a chance on a young manager like Giggs or Bellamy. We do have time on our side (not playing again until March), but we are half-way through a cycle with a tournament to prepare for Given this, bringing in someone like Bellamy would bring huge risks, and no time for a bedding in period. I think the same can be said for most Welsh managers in the pyramid at the moment, most just starting out in their careers For this reason I'd favour Coleman on a short term basis. He'd immediately steady the ship with his experience and reputation in the post. He'd breathe belief into the squad from day one, and any doubts of an uncertain transition would be immediately put to rest. He knows the setup, he knows the players, most of the players pleaded with him to stay, and most of the young players would have looked up to him He is out of work & seems to need a boost to pick his management career back up, a good showing at the Euros/WC qualifiers would do just that. Seems like it could be a mutually beneficial arrangement I'd take him on the basis that he will be in charge for the upcoming WC qualifiers, and the Euros. If he qualifies us for the WC he can have that too. Essentially put him in place for the remainder of what would have been Giggs's contract. But I'd also have the stipulation that beyond that, regardless what happens at the Euros/WC we'd be looking to employ someone new from 2022 onwards. I think this also gives us a better idea of how it's going for all the other options like Bellamy or Jones to see how their careers are progressing After Coleman, I think I'd like to see Bellamy have a go, but for me now isn't the right time for him, or someone of that profile to take charge. Too much of an ask The World Cup is in November/December 2022 though, so if we did qualify for it whoever was in charge for the qualifiers would need to be in charge for the Nations League that concludes before it. So basically a 2-year appointment. Forgot about that to be fair - but I guess that would be fair if he qualifies us, he'd deserve a crack at it
|
|
|
Giggs
Nov 3, 2020 21:34:37 GMT
Post by allezlesrouges on Nov 3, 2020 21:34:37 GMT
Regarding the FAW sacking Giggs off being financially difficult, that may be easier than we think. I'd be very surprised if there's nothing in his contract regarding professional conduct, and this incident could be deemed a breach of contract. On his replacement, who knows......... I'm not sure on Coleman like so many are. I'm not sure if Coleman and the FAW left things on a bad note? Also, this is almost a completely different squad to that of which Coleman had so there's no real continuity. There's also the worry that Coleman may reinstate his 'favourites' - Vokes, Taylor, Williams, Gunter, which at the moment could be detrimental. It's an absolute mess either way, and I hope is that the boys can hold it together for the upcoming matches. Do you really think that? I'm amazed people think Coleman would turn to players who don't have clubs and haven't played this season over the ones we currently have in the squad who are doing so well, playing, and have great potential. Coleman wasn't some fool who blindly stuck by players only out of superstition
|
|
|
Giggs
Nov 3, 2020 21:40:39 GMT
via mobile
Post by cadno on Nov 3, 2020 21:40:39 GMT
Nathan Jones - dim diolch. Mike Flynn - In the future maybe, yes! I thought Nathan Jones had a reputation of playing progressive stuff at Luton? Yeah that's true, I'm just not convinced that he's a very good man manager... And I'd prefer someone pragmatic in charge that can adapt his tactics, instead of someone that has one way of playing...
|
|
|
Post by iot on Nov 3, 2020 22:02:26 GMT
Quite a few asking my opinions about Coleman so I’ll just do a fresh one instead of writing 3 more. We were the most closed shop to players ever, it was so frustrating to see. Our centre back partnership now has what 20 caps between 4 players? He never replenished the well. Chester we can’t help injuries but he never had long term successor to Williams, he was living in the moment too much. CM he had Huws in mind which I’ll give him credit for and Woodburn further forward. How long was Tom Lawrence in the squad without making an appearance? About a year I think. We persevered with average players who barely contributed anything to the cause. I know he has his supporters on here, not sure why, but King gave us 50 odd 4/10 performances. Vokes scored one in 3 years? Church had a similar record if not worse. Since Giggs came in he’s found us a second choice keeper, we have Roberts and a young challenger, 3 young CB fighting it out, RND for Davies, 4 young CM with Allen to return, attacking players all over the place, a striker who can score a goal. I’ve heard him say we had 2 world class players too, but when was the last time either of them scored... or even played a whole match. We aren’t a team set up to draw unless Bale or Ramsey score anymore. Sure we have limitations but we have people contributing all over the pitch. But is there anything really in the 'closed shop' argument? It's very tempting to think there is something in it because so many average players played so many games under him, but who were the alternatives? You mentioned we never 'replenished the cb well' - the Coleman era came to an end before mepham and rodon came through, and coleman did end his spell playing a 17yo ethan ampadu - surely you're not suggesting he was guilty of not playing any of those three sooner? He was actually proactive in bringing ampadu on board who, along with tyler roberts, went away with the seniors to the training camp leading up to the euros if memory serves me correctly - amadu was just 15 at the time. Our other options were lynch and lockyer who was playing in league 2 at the time. The cbs he played were williams, chester, davies and collins, with gunts filling in once - all in their 20s / early 30s. You could make an argument over dummett, but that would be weak imo given everything we know about his attitude and commitment under two different managers. On CMs, who would you have brought in instead of king and edwards as the backups to allen and ledley? Emyr Huws? His progression over the last couple of years doesn't exactly make a strong case over any injustice there. Shaun Macdonald? This was well before morell or smith had played any senior football. The main example you raised is lawrence. However, he's always been extremely inconsistent and I see him currently sixth or seventh down the pecking order for our wide forwards. And Coleman did start him more often than not after his breakthrough loan with Ipswich. I just looked at his stats - prior to his loan with ipswich in the 16/17 season, he had a grand total of 9 goals in 73 games. He doubled that tally with ipswich and lo and behold, he played seven times for us in 2017. So I don't think there's a strong case for anything there either. In my opinion, it says it all that the biggest gripe people had at the time was that tom bradshaw hadn't been given more of an opportunity. He brought in ben davies after just one or two club appearances, likewise withwoodburn. He brought in james chester out of nowhere. Again, who else should he have brought into the fold?
|
|
|
Giggs
Nov 3, 2020 22:05:00 GMT
Post by aberbeeg on Nov 3, 2020 22:05:00 GMT
I hope the photos of his Mrs face are fake and not true. If they are true then it’s game over for Giggs and his whole career.
|
|
|
Giggs
Nov 3, 2020 22:14:39 GMT
via mobile
cadno likes this
Post by hal on Nov 3, 2020 22:14:39 GMT
It is going to be Rob Page. End of. There is not going to be an income from ticket sales until heaven knows when, the sponsors are going to be leaving in their droves. Giggs' isn't going to leave quietly and is going to almost break the association in paying him off or paying the legal fees if he is sacked. There just isn't going to be the budget for anyone else. However here's a real left field suggestion. How about Jayne Ludlow? She will be affordable, has international experience, knows the FAW setup. Agree with the top bit, we can all have our opinions but it will definitely be Rob Page, the FAW are extremely tight and with no ticket income it will only get worse.
|
|
|
Giggs
Nov 3, 2020 22:23:20 GMT
Post by pendragon on Nov 3, 2020 22:23:20 GMT
Holy Moley 😦
|
|
|
Giggs
Nov 3, 2020 22:28:40 GMT
via mobile
Post by joeymunchesgladbachs on Nov 3, 2020 22:28:40 GMT
Leftfield - but Harry Redknapp might be up for a potentially part-time job for 2 years and is flexible and experienced. The new El-Tel.
Personally I think I’d go back for Coleman. Admitted himself he’d find it difficult to get rid of the old-guard because of all they’d been through with Speed etc. However, most of that work has been done and as we look for qualification, hopefully Group A of the Nations League, Euros and a possible World Cup we could do worse than a refreshed Coleman with unfinished business and, dare I say it, a sometimes pragmatic approach.
Hopefully Giggs will be exonerated but if not Coleman has also experience of having to raise spirits in a potentially shell-shocked squad.
|
|
|
Giggs
Nov 3, 2020 22:30:27 GMT
Post by pendragon on Nov 3, 2020 22:30:27 GMT
Regarding the FAW sacking Giggs off being financially difficult, that may be easier than we think. I'd be very surprised if there's nothing in his contract regarding professional conduct, and this incident could be deemed a breach of contract. Yep, I agree with this. My guess is that the issue of breach of contract will rest on the strength of the allegations against him. Depends on how creative the legal team for the FAW have been in drafting his contract. If he is unable to perform his role for a significant amount of time due to this matter, then there could also be other grounds that could give rise to his eventual dismissal.
|
|
|
Giggs
Nov 3, 2020 22:30:56 GMT
Post by dai on Nov 3, 2020 22:30:56 GMT
I hope the photos of his Mrs face are fake and not true. If they are true then it’s game over for Giggs and his whole career. Uhh, what photos?
|
|
|
Giggs
Nov 3, 2020 22:31:52 GMT
Post by pendragon on Nov 3, 2020 22:31:52 GMT
It is going to be Rob Page. End of. There is not going to be an income from ticket sales until heaven knows when, the sponsors are going to be leaving in their droves. Giggs' isn't going to leave quietly and is going to almost break the association in paying him off or paying the legal fees if he is sacked. There just isn't going to be the budget for anyone else. However here's a real left field suggestion. How about Jayne Ludlow? She will be affordable, has international experience, knows the FAW setup. Love the Jayne Ludlow suggestion 👍
|
|
|
Giggs
Nov 3, 2020 22:32:02 GMT
Post by gwernybwch on Nov 3, 2020 22:32:02 GMT
Regarding the FAW sacking Giggs off being financially difficult, that may be easier than we think. I'd be very surprised if there's nothing in his contract regarding professional conduct, and this incident could be deemed a breach of contract. Behave. Dismissing any employee isn't easy, especially when you doing it on grounds of SOSR i.e. bringing the organisation into disrepute, breach of contract etc. He will have the resources to pay for a top notch legal team and I bet there are plenty of lawyers willing to do it pro bono to be involved in such a high profile case. Just the chance of a sniff at free Man U stuff would be enough to do it for free. Cross-examining a FAW dinosaur at an employment tribunal would be any lawyers wet-dream. I've seen many an employer who thought they had a solid case get the jitters during the tribunal and pay the ex-employee off. In Giggs' case that could easily be £300k+ The sort of money that would pay for a Manager that has experience in managing a small nation to the semi-final of a major tournament....
|
|
|
Giggs
Nov 3, 2020 22:38:30 GMT
Post by dai on Nov 3, 2020 22:38:30 GMT
Regarding the FAW sacking Giggs off being financially difficult, that may be easier than we think. I'd be very surprised if there's nothing in his contract regarding professional conduct, and this incident could be deemed a breach of contract. Behave. Dismissing any employee isn't easy, especially when you doing it on grounds of SOSR i.e. bringing the organisation into disrepute, breach of contract etc. He will have the resources to pay for a top notch legal team and I bet there are plenty of lawyers willing to do it pro bono to be involved in such a high profile case. Just the chance of a sniff at free Man U stuff would be enough to do it for free. Cross-examining a FAW dinosaur at an employment tribunal would be any lawyers wet-dream. I've seen many an employer who thought they had a solid case get the jitters during the tribunal and pay the ex-employee off. In Giggs' case that could easily be £300k+ The sort of money that would pay for a Manager that has experience in managing a small nation to the semi-final of a major tournament.... Behave? I have two good friends who work in employment law and although difficult, this looks much more favourable for the FAW if he has clauses in place. Legal stuff aside, if there is a clause in his contract then he has no leg to stand on.
|
|
|
Giggs
Nov 3, 2020 22:49:30 GMT
Post by gwernybwch on Nov 3, 2020 22:49:30 GMT
Behave. Dismissing any employee isn't easy, especially when you doing it on grounds of SOSR i.e. bringing the organisation into disrepute, breach of contract etc. He will have the resources to pay for a top notch legal team and I bet there are plenty of lawyers willing to do it pro bono to be involved in such a high profile case. Just the chance of a sniff at free Man U stuff would be enough to do it for free. Cross-examining a FAW dinosaur at an employment tribunal would be any lawyers wet-dream. I've seen many an employer who thought they had a solid case get the jitters during the tribunal and pay the ex-employee off. In Giggs' case that could easily be £300k+ The sort of money that would pay for a Manager that has experience in managing a small nation to the semi-final of a major tournament.... Behave? I have two good friends who work in employment law and although difficult, this looks much more favourable for the FAW if he has clauses in place. Legal stuff aside, if there is a clause in his contract then he has no leg to stand on. How much do your 'good friends' charge an hour? How many hours / day prep do they do before an employment tribunal? How much does the barrister that they use at employment tribunals charge per day? It is all starting to add up. And that is if the FAW win. As for having no leg to stand on, I bet your lawyer friends would be wetting their lips at the thought of defending the argument that merely being arrested does not mean that the employment relationship is broken down beyond repair or that the organisation has been brought into disrepute. Especially when there is a possible share of the in lieu of the £1m notice period to be had.
|
|
|
Giggs
Nov 3, 2020 22:54:53 GMT
Post by llan123 on Nov 3, 2020 22:54:53 GMT
I've seen the supposed pic going round, it doesn't look like her really but could be wrong. Might be whatsapp mischief.
|
|
|
Post by rushlegend on Nov 3, 2020 23:25:45 GMT
Do you really think that? I'm amazed people think Coleman would turn to players who don't have clubs and haven't played this season over the ones we currently have in the squad who are doing so well, playing, and have great potential. Coleman wasn't some fool who blindly stuck by players only out of superstition
Quite right - who gave Woodburn, Ampadu, Brooks etc there debut???
|
|
|
Giggs
Nov 4, 2020 0:04:42 GMT
Post by allezlesrouges on Nov 4, 2020 0:04:42 GMT
I hope the photos of his Mrs face are fake and not true. If they are true then it’s game over for Giggs and his whole career. Got sent that on my whatsapp group but the person who sent it then quickly said apparently they're not true
|
|
|
Giggs
Nov 4, 2020 8:34:57 GMT
Post by aberbeeg on Nov 4, 2020 8:34:57 GMT
Fingers crossed the photos aren’t true.
|
|
|
Giggs
Nov 4, 2020 12:06:45 GMT
Post by 1gwaunview on Nov 4, 2020 12:06:45 GMT
Giggs is innocent until proven guilty under our legal system, and so it should be. We know from his previous scandals he's a moral vacuum, but that's not the point. The problem is at the moment, he's dragging FAW and Welsh football into the media gutter by association and for however long this business lasts, it'll be an unwanted distraction. With the EUROS on the horizon and other qualifiers, the FAW must surely come to a decision as soon as they possibly can, no later than January, or we'll have this cloud hanging over our National team for months. As has been mentioned on the thread, any proceedings may not commence until well into 2021. (Covid19 won't help) It's not going to be great preparation for the upcoming championships is it?
|
|
|
Giggs
Nov 4, 2020 13:00:33 GMT
via mobile
Post by conwy10 on Nov 4, 2020 13:00:33 GMT
Quite a few asking my opinions about Coleman so I’ll just do a fresh one instead of writing 3 more. We were the most closed shop to players ever, it was so frustrating to see. Our centre back partnership now has what 20 caps between 4 players? He never replenished the well. Chester we can’t help injuries but he never had long term successor to Williams, he was living in the moment too much. CM he had Huws in mind which I’ll give him credit for and Woodburn further forward. How long was Tom Lawrence in the squad without making an appearance? About a year I think. We persevered with average players who barely contributed anything to the cause. I know he has his supporters on here, not sure why, but King gave us 50 odd 4/10 performances. Vokes scored one in 3 years? Church had a similar record if not worse. Since Giggs came in he’s found us a second choice keeper, we have Roberts and a young challenger, 3 young CB fighting it out, RND for Davies, 4 young CM with Allen to return, attacking players all over the place, a striker who can score a goal. I’ve heard him say we had 2 world class players too, but when was the last time either of them scored... or even played a whole match. We aren’t a team set up to draw unless Bale or Ramsey score anymore. Sure we have limitations but we have people contributing all over the pitch. But is there anything really in the 'closed shop' argument? It's very tempting to think there is something in it because so many average players played so many games under him, but who were the alternatives? You mentioned we never 'replenished the cb well' - the Coleman era came to an end before mepham and rodon came through, and coleman did end his spell playing a 17yo ethan ampadu - surely you're not suggesting he was guilty of not playing any of those three sooner? He was actually proactive in bringing ampadu on board who, along with tyler roberts, went away with the seniors to the training camp leading up to the euros if memory serves me correctly - amadu was just 15 at the time. Our other options were lynch and lockyer who was playing in league 2 at the time. The cbs he played were williams, chester, davies and collins, with gunts filling in once - all in their 20s / early 30s. You could make an argument over dummett, but that would be weak imo given everything we know about his attitude and commitment under two different managers. On CMs, who would you have brought in instead of king and edwards as the backups to allen and ledley? Emyr Huws? His progression over the last couple of years doesn't exactly make a strong case over any injustice there. Shaun Macdonald? This was well before morell or smith had played any senior football. The main example you raised is lawrence. However, he's always been extremely inconsistent and I see him currently sixth or seventh down the pecking order for our wide forwards. And Coleman did start him more often than not after his breakthrough loan with Ipswich. I just looked at his stats - prior to his loan with ipswich in the 16/17 season, he had a grand total of 9 goals in 73 games. He doubled that tally with ipswich and lo and behold, he played seven times for us in 2017. So I don't think there's a strong case for anything there either. In my opinion, it says it all that the biggest gripe people had at the time was that tom bradshaw hadn't been given more of an opportunity. He brought in ben davies after just one or two club appearances, likewise withwoodburn. He brought in james chester out of nowhere. Again, who else should he have brought into the fold? With hindsight I could say he made the right choice with a few, but at the time why not throw in the likes of Regan Poole, Declan John, Nathan Broadhead, Mepham to lower the age group? Did they turn out to be top players... no, but at the time we didn’t know that. Brooks could have been bought in sooner, Matondo could have been given a match. Daniel James wasn’t given a chance. RND could have been selected. All these lads who we’re picking up in their 20’s without a cap, Toshack saw potential in Gunter, Hennessey, Bale, Ramsey at 16/17 which is why we’ve got this immense amount of experience. He set us up for success 12 years in the future. Under Giggs in 10 years we’ll probably have Ampadu, Rodon, Williams, Levitt pushing 100 caps. He gave Ampadu his debut for 30 mins of his last match in a friendly. He might have bought him along to train but he wasn’t going to give him game time. It would be interesting to see how many debuts he gave in comparison to other managers. In 5 years we might be saying “why did Giggs waste time with Cabango, RND, Levitt, Smith” but he’s given them a chance. I position myself between Giggs and Coleman, hate Giggs revolving door but hate the closed shop too. We should have a steady stream coming in and picking up caps and the ones getting to 27/28 without nailing down a place moved on. I’m seriously worrying about our goalkeeper situation, all mid to late 20’s, without being harsh if Ward is our 3rd choice keeper now he needs to be shifted on and bring in a 18/19 year old lad for when Hennessey retires.
|
|
|
Post by walesgolfmadrid on Nov 4, 2020 13:26:58 GMT
But is there anything really in the 'closed shop' argument? It's very tempting to think there is something in it because so many average players played so many games under him, but who were the alternatives? You mentioned we never 'replenished the cb well' - the Coleman era came to an end before mepham and rodon came through, and coleman did end his spell playing a 17yo ethan ampadu - surely you're not suggesting he was guilty of not playing any of those three sooner? He was actually proactive in bringing ampadu on board who, along with tyler roberts, went away with the seniors to the training camp leading up to the euros if memory serves me correctly - amadu was just 15 at the time. Our other options were lynch and lockyer who was playing in league 2 at the time. The cbs he played were williams, chester, davies and collins, with gunts filling in once - all in their 20s / early 30s. You could make an argument over dummett, but that would be weak imo given everything we know about his attitude and commitment under two different managers. On CMs, who would you have brought in instead of king and edwards as the backups to allen and ledley? Emyr Huws? His progression over the last couple of years doesn't exactly make a strong case over any injustice there. Shaun Macdonald? This was well before morell or smith had played any senior football. The main example you raised is lawrence. However, he's always been extremely inconsistent and I see him currently sixth or seventh down the pecking order for our wide forwards. And Coleman did start him more often than not after his breakthrough loan with Ipswich. I just looked at his stats - prior to his loan with ipswich in the 16/17 season, he had a grand total of 9 goals in 73 games. He doubled that tally with ipswich and lo and behold, he played seven times for us in 2017. So I don't think there's a strong case for anything there either. In my opinion, it says it all that the biggest gripe people had at the time was that tom bradshaw hadn't been given more of an opportunity. He brought in ben davies after just one or two club appearances, likewise withwoodburn. He brought in james chester out of nowhere. Again, who else should he have brought into the fold? With hindsight I could say he made the right choice with a few, but at the time why not throw in the likes of Regan Poole, Declan John, Nathan Broadhead, Mepham to lower the age group? Did they turn out to be top players... no, but at the time we didn’t know that. Brooks could have been bought in sooner, Matondo could have been given a match. Daniel James wasn’t given a chance. RND could have been selected. All these lads who we’re picking up in their 20’s without a cap, Toshack saw potential in Gunter, Hennessey, Bale, Ramsey at 16/17 which is why we’ve got this immense amount of experience. He set us up for success 12 years in the future. Under Giggs in 10 years we’ll probably have Ampadu, Rodon, Williams, Levitt pushing 100 caps. He gave Ampadu his debut for 30 mins of his last match in a friendly. He might have bought him along to train but he wasn’t going to give him game time. It would be interesting to see how many debuts he gave in comparison to other managers. In 5 years we might be saying “why did Giggs waste time with Cabango, RND, Levitt, Smith” but he’s given them a chance. I position myself between Giggs and Coleman, hate Giggs revolving door but hate the closed shop too. We should have a steady stream coming in and picking up caps and the ones getting to 27/28 without nailing down a place moved on. I’m seriously worrying about our goalkeeper situation, all mid to late 20’s, without being harsh if Ward is our 3rd choice keeper now he needs to be shifted on and bring in a 18/19 year old lad for when Hennessey retires. Declan John was given an opportunity by Coleman when he first broke through at Cardiff, and more than had a look at him. Regan Poole hadn't played above League 2 level when Coleman was manager, and wasn't in a position to step up to League 1 for over a year after he left the job. Coleman only had the opportunity to give Mepham his debut in his final friendly after his professional debut, but he was playing for the U21's instead. Either way, he didn't exactly have time to bed him in to the squad, and opted to let him have more minutes for the U21's. Could Brooks really have been brought in sooner? He was called up to the Welsh squad at the first opportunity to do so after he made his football league debut. Dan James had never played professionally when Coleman was manager, and was sent back by Shrewsbury at a similar time to Coleman's last squad. Rabbi Matondo made his professsional debut 14 months after Coleman's last game, Nathan Broadhead took nearly a year after Coleman's last game to make his professional debut. Rhys Norrington-Davies made his professional debut nearly a year later, at National League Barrow. The examples you've used are really poor, none of those players were ready for a call-up at the time, and some of them still aren't ready for a call-up. Coleman did a good job of integrating players who were ready for the national side, and definitely gave opportunities to youngsters as soon as he could (Wilson, John, Davies, Woodburn, Ampadu, Brooks) and got them in and around the first team environment when possible. The players who have come through since just weren't ready at the time, and there's no harm in players coming in to the squad in their 20's, when they're ready for a call up and ready to make an impact. If you've got any better examples then feel free, but I don't think any of the ones you've used in that post are remotely valid.
|
|