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Giggs
Nov 4, 2020 13:35:17 GMT
Post by robin1864 on Nov 4, 2020 13:35:17 GMT
The FAW knew full-well what they were getting involved with. Giggs record with Wales prior to management didn't make him a popular choice with fans, and he's already once ruined his family with his scumbag behaviour.
Still, totally worth it to flog a few shirts and get easy publicity by hiring a "legend".
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Giggs
Nov 4, 2020 13:44:12 GMT
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Post by insertname on Nov 4, 2020 13:44:12 GMT
Regarding the FAW sacking Giggs off being financially difficult, that may be easier than we think. I'd be very surprised if there's nothing in his contract regarding professional conduct, and this incident could be deemed a breach of contract. On his replacement, who knows......... I'm not sure on Coleman like so many are. I'm not sure if Coleman and the FAW left things on a bad note? Also, this is almost a completely different squad to that of which Coleman had so there's no real continuity. There's also the worry that Coleman may reinstate his 'favourites' - Vokes, Taylor, Williams, Gunter, which at the moment could be detrimental. It's an absolute mess either way, and I hope is that the boys can hold it together for the upcoming matches. Do you really think that? I'm amazed people think Coleman would turn to players who don't have clubs and haven't played this season over the ones we currently have in the squad who are doing so well, playing, and have great potential. Coleman wasn't some fool who blindly stuck by players only out of superstition Wasn’t he? As Conwy posted above some players earned a lot more caps under Coleman than they had any right to. Coleman was a man of his era, his peak with Wales was the Euros where we transitioned from being a minnow to a respectable side and from that point needed to kick on and transition to being an even bigger team in terms of strategy and belief. And yet we stagnated somewhat both in terms of personnel and rigid boring safety first tactics that stifled creativity in favour of defensive solidity and which resulted in too many draws. From what I understand the first thing Coleman did at Sunderland was switch to wing backs which they didn’t have the players for to the bemusement of fans. He is a total one trick pony, that trick worked alright for him for a while but when he had to dig into his own ideas at Sunderland he came up short. His management career as a whole is pretty poor bar the euros. He would no doubt love to be offered the Wales job because he’s probably not received a call from a football league chairman for many years. I’d like to see us continue Giggs approach with a young manager with fresh ideas and a positive ethos. I would favour Eddie Howe although we have probably no chance or at least no chance of getting him to commit to a 4 or even 2 year cycle. Let’s look forwards not backwards.
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Giggs
Nov 4, 2020 14:04:29 GMT
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Post by insertname on Nov 4, 2020 14:04:29 GMT
Unfortunately things work differently today than they did years ago. He is the figurehead of the National team representing our whole Country. He’s not some guy working 8-5 earning min wage. Everyone has the right to a private life BUT ( here’s the problem) someone (probably his Mrs) RANG THE POLICE.Once that phone call was made it then naturally starts a chain reaction ( usually for the worse) the Police are paid for by the tax payer.Some journalist gets a tip off and before you know it the Celebrity is named and shamed and has to come out and admit the arrest at the very least.Thus throwing the spotlight on not only themselves but also their employer and in this case the Whole Country. Innocent he could well be but that phone call was made by someone. Someone who may not have been telling the truth and yet on that basis the guy is hung out to dry? I’d like to think we are more of an enlightened society than that but judging by the general acceptance that this is just the way it is it seems we very much aren’t.
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Giggs
Nov 4, 2020 14:10:00 GMT
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Post by insertname on Nov 4, 2020 14:10:00 GMT
The FAW knew full-well what they were getting involved with. Giggs record with Wales prior to management didn't make him a popular choice with fans, and he's already once ruined his family with his scumbag behaviour. Still, totally worth it to flog a few shirts and get easy publicity by hiring a "legend". That doesn’t equate to him being a wife beater though. Look at texan’s example of what ABH can be classed as. I think people need to draw some conclusions when there is more information to draw those conclusions from.
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Giggs
Nov 4, 2020 14:30:02 GMT
Post by robin1864 on Nov 4, 2020 14:30:02 GMT
The FAW knew full-well what they were getting involved with. Giggs record with Wales prior to management didn't make him a popular choice with fans, and he's already once ruined his family with his scumbag behaviour. Still, totally worth it to flog a few shirts and get easy publicity by hiring a "legend". That doesn’t equate to him being a wife beater though. Look at texan’s example of what ABH can be classed as. I think people need to draw some conclusions when there is more information to draw those conclusions from. Not once did I mention he was a wife-beater, but there were plenty of reasons against him being hired as Wales manager before this damaging allegation came out. Still, totally worth it for the fairy-tale "Welsh HERO guides the boys to European success" headlines, wasn't it Mr Ford?
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Post by allezlesrouges on Nov 4, 2020 14:39:28 GMT
Do you really think that? I'm amazed people think Coleman would turn to players who don't have clubs and haven't played this season over the ones we currently have in the squad who are doing so well, playing, and have great potential. Coleman wasn't some fool who blindly stuck by players only out of superstition Wasn’t he? As Conwy posted above some players earned a lot more caps under Coleman than they had any right to. The only post where Conwy mentioned players who had too many caps he mentioned Church, King & Vokes. I hate talking in generalities so let's be specific here. Under Coleman; Church was capped 24 times (2012-2016) - which of these caps did he have no right to earn? And which player should have been picked instead of him? What level was this replacement playing at during that time? King was capped 33 times (2012-2017) - which of these caps did he have no right to earn? And which player should have been picked ahead of him? What level was this replacement playing at during that time? (Bear in mind that King won the Premier League and was playing regular top flight football in this period) Vokes was capped 37 times (2012-2017) - which of these caps did he have no right to earn? And which player should have been picked ahead of him? What level was this replacement playing at during that time period? (Bear in mind Vokes was either scoring a lot of goals for a top Championship side or playing in the top flight during this time) Please also explain to me the correlation between Coleman giving these players more caps than you'd like, and Coleman coming into the job now and picking King over Ampadu Again I'll repeat - I'm amazed anyone thinks King or Church would have a chance of playing under Coleman now. Whether he could have brought more players through or not, Coleman always used what was in front of him. Now that someone has come in and done significant work to update & improve our player pool, the idea that he'd come in and disregard that for no reason is barmy to me
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Giggs
Nov 4, 2020 14:59:34 GMT
Post by walesgolfmadrid on Nov 4, 2020 14:59:34 GMT
That doesn’t equate to him being a wife beater though. Look at texan’s example of what ABH can be classed as. I think people need to draw some conclusions when there is more information to draw those conclusions from. Not once did I mention he was a wife-beater, but there were plenty of reasons against him being hired as Wales manager before this damaging allegation came out. Still, totally worth it for the fairy-tale "Welsh HERO guides the boys to European success" headlines, wasn't it Mr Ford? So you think he was hired for a headline, rather than to qualify for a major tournament? We don't know what's going on with these allegations, but from a footballing perspective if Giggs time as manager was to end with us now, it'd undoubtedly be an unsuccessful appointment in footballing terms.
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Giggs
Nov 4, 2020 16:03:38 GMT
Post by robin1864 on Nov 4, 2020 16:03:38 GMT
Not once did I mention he was a wife-beater, but there were plenty of reasons against him being hired as Wales manager before this damaging allegation came out. Still, totally worth it for the fairy-tale "Welsh HERO guides the boys to European success" headlines, wasn't it Mr Ford? So you think he was hired for a headline, rather than to qualify for a major tournament? We don't know what's going on with these allegations, but from a footballing perspective if Giggs time as manager was to end with us now, it'd undoubtedly be an unsuccessful appointment in footballing terms. Not for a headline, but the publicity was likely a factor - otherwise why not hire someone with equally weak management credentials? We had a squad capable of qualification regardless. This is very much our Big Sam moment, albeit with more serious legal consequences.
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Giggs
Nov 4, 2020 17:42:01 GMT
Post by cogancoronation31 on Nov 4, 2020 17:42:01 GMT
This conversation may be totally academic, as RG has not actually been charged with committing any offence. It is still possible that no prosecution will be proceeded with against him. There may be no 'Court case' at all. The alleged victim may elect not to press charges. Even if there has been a transgression, he may be 'let off' with a caution. There are various permutations. It may all blow over, who knows? However, I agree that the mere publicity itself does not put things in a good light at all.
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Giggs
Nov 4, 2020 17:48:58 GMT
Post by walesgolfmadrid on Nov 4, 2020 17:48:58 GMT
So you think he was hired for a headline, rather than to qualify for a major tournament? We don't know what's going on with these allegations, but from a footballing perspective if Giggs time as manager was to end with us now, it'd undoubtedly be an unsuccessful appointment in footballing terms. Not for a headline, but the publicity was likely a factor - otherwise why not hire someone with equally weak management credentials? We had a squad capable of qualification regardless. This is very much our Big Sam moment, albeit with more serious legal consequences. Because they were seemingly impressed with him in an interview, or they liked him. Either way, the aims and goals of the FAW aren't publicity, they're to qualify for major tournaments which is where the money's at. They were justified with their appointment in a footballing sense, whilst we had a squad capable of qualification, achieving it is another thing.
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Post by gwernybwch on Nov 4, 2020 21:32:24 GMT
Not for a headline, but the publicity was likely a factor - otherwise why not hire someone with equally weak management credentials? We had a squad capable of qualification regardless. This is very much our Big Sam moment, albeit with more serious legal consequences. Because they were seemingly impressed with him in an interview, or they liked him. Either way, the aims and goals of the FAW aren't publicity, they're to qualify for major tournaments which is where the money's at. They were justified with their appointment in a footballing sense, whilst we had a squad capable of qualification, achieving it is another thing. Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that the breakeven point for the FAW at Euro 2016 was Q16? If we hadn't progressed further than that it would have been a loss making exercise. If I remember rightly that the FAW's main income streams are (1) TV rights, (2) Sponsorship (3) Ticket sales. They aren't able to influence the amount that they receive from the TV rights, so sponsorship is the main way that they can increase their revenue. And that was one of the arguments that Giggs' own personal PR Abbandonato kept banging on about. Hire Giggs and it will lead increase media coverage for Welsh football which in turn will lead to better sponsorship deals. Regardless as to how this turns out, there isn't going to be a queue of companies wanting to associate themselves with FAW or RG. Unless Stella Artois want to enhance their reputation as the beer drunk by a certain type of "gentle"man....
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Giggs
Nov 4, 2020 22:42:11 GMT
Post by walesgolfmadrid on Nov 4, 2020 22:42:11 GMT
Because they were seemingly impressed with him in an interview, or they liked him. Either way, the aims and goals of the FAW aren't publicity, they're to qualify for major tournaments which is where the money's at. They were justified with their appointment in a footballing sense, whilst we had a squad capable of qualification, achieving it is another thing. Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that the breakeven point for the FAW at Euro 2016 was Q16? If we hadn't progressed further than that it would have been a loss making exercise. If I remember rightly that the FAW's main income streams are (1) TV rights, (2) Sponsorship (3) Ticket sales. They aren't able to influence the amount that they receive from the TV rights, so sponsorship is the main way that they can increase their revenue. And that was one of the arguments that Giggs' own personal PR Abbandonato kept banging on about. Hire Giggs and it will lead increase media coverage for Welsh football which in turn will lead to better sponsorship deals. Regardless as to how this turns out, there isn't going to be a queue of companies wanting to associate themselves with FAW or RG. Unless Stella Artois want to enhance their reputation as the beer drunk by a certain type of "gentle"man.... Fair points, but would the sponsorship revenue for the team not be a lot higher for a side that consistently play in major tournaments, and are in Nations League A, playing in bigger grounds against some of the bigger countries in the world. The money for reaching Nations League A is also substantial, the performances on the pitch are the biggest factor when it comes to generating money. Anyway, I'm unsure of just how much of a draw Giggs is, given that the commercial weight of the Welsh team surely rests on the shoulders of Gareth Bale regardless. Either way, the number one priority when it came to appointing a manager was going to be performances on the pitch, and that's how the appointment was always going to be judged. He's succeeded on the pitch, so the appointment was justified and I don't really see how the FAW are in a position to be criticized at this stage for his appointment.
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Giggs
Nov 5, 2020 10:27:59 GMT
Post by TheWelshWay on Nov 5, 2020 10:27:59 GMT
Wasn’t he? As Conwy posted above some players earned a lot more caps under Coleman than they had any right to. The only post where Conwy mentioned players who had too many caps he mentioned Church, King & Vokes. I hate talking in generalities so let's be specific here. Under Coleman; Church was capped 24 times (2012-2016) - which of these caps did he have no right to earn? And which player should have been picked instead of him? What level was this replacement playing at during that time? King was capped 33 times (2012-2017) - which of these caps did he have no right to earn? And which player should have been picked ahead of him? What level was this replacement playing at during that time? (Bear in mind that King won the Premier League and was playing regular top flight football in this period) Vokes was capped 37 times (2012-2017) - which of these caps did he have no right to earn? And which player should have been picked ahead of him? What level was this replacement playing at during that time period? (Bear in mind Vokes was either scoring a lot of goals for a top Championship side or playing in the top flight during this time) Please also explain to me the correlation between Coleman giving these players more caps than you'd like, and Coleman coming into the job now and picking King over Ampadu Again I'll repeat - I'm amazed anyone thinks King or Church would have a chance of playing under Coleman now. Whether he could have brought more players through or not, Coleman always used what was in front of him. Now that someone has come in and done significant work to update & improve our player pool, the idea that he'd come in and disregard that for no reason is barmy to me Maybe not those mentioned, but there is no doubting Coleman preferred senior players. Maybe the likes of Gunter, Ash, Chester, Taylor, Vaulkes, Huws, T.Lawrence, maybe Hedges and Doidge, would have much more of a chance under Coleman. Not saying that is bad per se, but it may stifle the trajectory and progress of the likes of Neco, Cabango, Mepham, Lockleyr, RND, Levitt, Smith, Morrell, T.Roberts. Not against Coleman (if we need to have this conversation)- but it would be a new system and style there is no doubting it. There is also no doubting Colemen was a bit too soft with a few players (including those mentioned in your post) and gave them a bit too much leeway, especially during his last campaign - which looking back was a massive missed opportunity.
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Post by marsvolta on Nov 5, 2020 11:54:27 GMT
Wasn’t he? As Conwy posted above some players earned a lot more caps under Coleman than they had any right to. The only post where Conwy mentioned players who had too many caps he mentioned Church, King & Vokes. I hate talking in generalities so let's be specific here. Under Coleman; Church was capped 24 times (2012-2016) - which of these caps did he have no right to earn? And which player should have been picked instead of him? What level was this replacement playing at during that time? King was capped 33 times (2012-2017) - which of these caps did he have no right to earn? And which player should have been picked ahead of him? What level was this replacement playing at during that time? (Bear in mind that King won the Premier League and was playing regular top flight football in this period) Vokes was capped 37 times (2012-2017) - which of these caps did he have no right to earn? And which player should have been picked ahead of him? What level was this replacement playing at during that time period? (Bear in mind Vokes was either scoring a lot of goals for a top Championship side or playing in the top flight during this time) Please also explain to me the correlation between Coleman giving these players more caps than you'd like, and Coleman coming into the job now and picking King over Ampadu Again I'll repeat - I'm amazed anyone thinks King or Church would have a chance of playing under Coleman now. Whether he could have brought more players through or not, Coleman always used what was in front of him. Now that someone has come in and done significant work to update & improve our player pool, the idea that he'd come in and disregard that for no reason is barmy to me Spot on sir. It’s easy to look back and recall it differently but, as far as I can remember, the only debates we used to have back then was whether Maxwell should be in instead of fon Williams or whether Bradshaw should be in instead of Church. The fact that the only argument was which third choice keeper and which fourth choice striker we pick shows that there wasn’t many alternatives out there.
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Giggs
Nov 5, 2020 16:46:42 GMT
Post by dai on Nov 5, 2020 16:46:42 GMT
Was anyone else aware that Giggs apparently assaulted his then girlfriend, Davinia Taylor, at a Manchester nightclub in 1997??
When you research all his incidents and behaviours off the pitch, I think it's a cert he is guilty in this current situation.
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Giggs
Nov 5, 2020 22:06:49 GMT
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Post by holmesdaleultra on Nov 5, 2020 22:06:49 GMT
Was anyone else aware that Giggs apparently assaulted his then girlfriend, Davinia Taylor, at a Manchester nightclub in 1997?? When you research all his incidents and behaviours off the pitch, I think it's a cert he is guilty in this current situation. Innocent until proven guilty bro.
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harry
the carls
Posts: 75
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Giggs
Nov 5, 2020 23:40:52 GMT
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Post by harry on Nov 5, 2020 23:40:52 GMT
The lazy generalisations about Coleman being some sort of loyal, dinosaur type manager, are just that, lazy. He is far more intelligent than people are giving him credit for and I’ve no doubt that if he came back he would adapt and galvanise the squad.
The points made about finances are good ones, although those concerns might be alleviated if the £3 million for winning the Nations League group is secured. Also love the idea of Eddie Howe taking over, whether Wales could afford it is another thing but a great shout.
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Post by dragons on Nov 7, 2020 13:53:22 GMT
Steve Cooper all the way!
Liverpool FC Academy Manager
England U21 Coach
Swansea City Manager.
Forget Bellamy, Roberts, Coleman. Tony Pulis is long ball, it would be like going back to the 90's.
100% Steve Cooper
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Giggs
Nov 7, 2020 18:47:46 GMT
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Post by conwy10 on Nov 7, 2020 18:47:46 GMT
With hindsight I could say he made the right choice with a few, but at the time why not throw in the likes of Regan Poole, Declan John, Nathan Broadhead, Mepham to lower the age group? Did they turn out to be top players... no, but at the time we didn’t know that. Brooks could have been bought in sooner, Matondo could have been given a match. Daniel James wasn’t given a chance. RND could have been selected. All these lads who we’re picking up in their 20’s without a cap, Toshack saw potential in Gunter, Hennessey, Bale, Ramsey at 16/17 which is why we’ve got this immense amount of experience. He set us up for success 12 years in the future. Under Giggs in 10 years we’ll probably have Ampadu, Rodon, Williams, Levitt pushing 100 caps. He gave Ampadu his debut for 30 mins of his last match in a friendly. He might have bought him along to train but he wasn’t going to give him game time. It would be interesting to see how many debuts he gave in comparison to other managers. In 5 years we might be saying “why did Giggs waste time with Cabango, RND, Levitt, Smith” but he’s given them a chance. I position myself between Giggs and Coleman, hate Giggs revolving door but hate the closed shop too. We should have a steady stream coming in and picking up caps and the ones getting to 27/28 without nailing down a place moved on. I’m seriously worrying about our goalkeeper situation, all mid to late 20’s, without being harsh if Ward is our 3rd choice keeper now he needs to be shifted on and bring in a 18/19 year old lad for when Hennessey retires. Declan John was given an opportunity by Coleman when he first broke through at Cardiff, and more than had a look at him. Regan Poole hadn't played above League 2 level when Coleman was manager, and wasn't in a position to step up to League 1 for over a year after he left the job. Coleman only had the opportunity to give Mepham his debut in his final friendly after his professional debut, but he was playing for the U21's instead. Either way, he didn't exactly have time to bed him in to the squad, and opted to let him have more minutes for the U21's. Could Brooks really have been brought in sooner? He was called up to the Welsh squad at the first opportunity to do so after he made his football league debut. Dan James had never played professionally when Coleman was manager, and was sent back by Shrewsbury at a similar time to Coleman's last squad. Rabbi Matondo made his professsional debut 14 months after Coleman's last game, Nathan Broadhead took nearly a year after Coleman's last game to make his professional debut. Rhys Norrington-Davies made his professional debut nearly a year later, at National League Barrow. The examples you've used are really poor, none of those players were ready for a call-up at the time, and some of them still aren't ready for a call-up. Coleman did a good job of integrating players who were ready for the national side, and definitely gave opportunities to youngsters as soon as he could (Wilson, John, Davies, Woodburn, Ampadu, Brooks) and got them in and around the first team environment when possible. The players who have come through since just weren't ready at the time, and there's no harm in players coming in to the squad in their 20's, when they're ready for a call up and ready to make an impact. If you've got any better examples then feel free, but I don't think any of the ones you've used in that post are remotely valid. You’re asking me who I wanted to see 4 years later, I don’t know is the answer, probably saw a few youth ones who I thought should have been involved but can’t remember now. I gave examples off the top of my head but on those poor examples Williams was called into the squad at Stockport and played his first match when he’d joined Swansea and went on to captain Wales. Levitt and Smith made how many first team appearances, Ampadu had only played for Exeter. Morrell was League One. Likes of Gunter, Bale, Ramsey how many first team appearances had they had? They were picked on potential, we have to eventually make the investment in highly rated players to become our first teasers in 6 years. Sorry my opinion wasn’t valid.
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Giggs
Nov 7, 2020 18:55:24 GMT
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Post by iot on Nov 7, 2020 18:55:24 GMT
Steve Cooper all the way! Liverpool FC Academy Manager England U21 Coach Swansea City Manager. Forget Bellamy, Roberts, Coleman. Tony Pulis is long ball, it would be like going back to the 90's. 100% Steve Cooper Watched most of the second half today and Swansea looked very good and unlucky to lose. I wasn't sure about him last season, but this season there seems to be a lot more purpose to their play and they've done very well on a limited budget. So I would be more than happy with Cooper, although I"m not sure he'd be interested at this stage of his career
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Giggs
Nov 7, 2020 19:49:58 GMT
Post by walesgolfmadrid on Nov 7, 2020 19:49:58 GMT
Declan John was given an opportunity by Coleman when he first broke through at Cardiff, and more than had a look at him. Regan Poole hadn't played above League 2 level when Coleman was manager, and wasn't in a position to step up to League 1 for over a year after he left the job. Coleman only had the opportunity to give Mepham his debut in his final friendly after his professional debut, but he was playing for the U21's instead. Either way, he didn't exactly have time to bed him in to the squad, and opted to let him have more minutes for the U21's. Could Brooks really have been brought in sooner? He was called up to the Welsh squad at the first opportunity to do so after he made his football league debut. Dan James had never played professionally when Coleman was manager, and was sent back by Shrewsbury at a similar time to Coleman's last squad. Rabbi Matondo made his professsional debut 14 months after Coleman's last game, Nathan Broadhead took nearly a year after Coleman's last game to make his professional debut. Rhys Norrington-Davies made his professional debut nearly a year later, at National League Barrow. The examples you've used are really poor, none of those players were ready for a call-up at the time, and some of them still aren't ready for a call-up. Coleman did a good job of integrating players who were ready for the national side, and definitely gave opportunities to youngsters as soon as he could (Wilson, John, Davies, Woodburn, Ampadu, Brooks) and got them in and around the first team environment when possible. The players who have come through since just weren't ready at the time, and there's no harm in players coming in to the squad in their 20's, when they're ready for a call up and ready to make an impact. If you've got any better examples then feel free, but I don't think any of the ones you've used in that post are remotely valid. You’re asking me who I wanted to see 4 years later, I don’t know is the answer, probably saw a few youth ones who I thought should have been involved but can’t remember now. I gave examples off the top of my head but on those poor examples Williams was called into the squad at Stockport and played his first match when he’d joined Swansea and went on to captain Wales. Levitt and Smith made how many first team appearances, Ampadu had only played for Exeter. Morrell was League One. Likes of Gunter, Bale, Ramsey how many first team appearances had they had? They were picked on potential, we have to eventually make the investment in highly rated players to become our first teasers in 6 years. Sorry my opinion wasn’t valid. I'm not saying that your opinion isn't valid, but if you're going to criticise Coleman for not giving enough young players coming through a chance then yes, your going to need to provide a genuine example of a young player who wasn't given a chance to our detriment to add any weight to your argument. When young players came about who did have potential, like Ben Davies, Jonny Williams, Danny Ward, David Brooks, Ethan Ampadu, Ben Woodburn, Harry Wilson and Tom Lawrence, then Coleman capped them and bedded them in to the side. He also did so with players who didn't quite make the grade either, put did show that they could potentially make it like James Wilson, Jake Taylor, Lee Evans, George Williams, Jazz Richards, Declan John and Lloyd Isgrove. You didn't need to establish yourself playing first team football for long periods of time to get caps under Chris Coleman, he gave many players their first caps at the first opportunity after they'd made their professional debuts (Ampadu, Brooks, Davies, Wilson, Woodburn). If you can't give me an example of who you're criticising him for not picking, then there isn't much of a discussion to be had. Your entitled to an opinion, but it doesn't seem to be based on anything concrete, and I've given you plenty of evidence that suggests otherwise.
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Giggs
Nov 7, 2020 20:38:03 GMT
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jbt95 likes this
Post by mortillsy on Nov 7, 2020 20:38:03 GMT
You’re asking me who I wanted to see 4 years later, I don’t know is the answer, probably saw a few youth ones who I thought should have been involved but can’t remember now. I gave examples off the top of my head but on those poor examples Williams was called into the squad at Stockport and played his first match when he’d joined Swansea and went on to captain Wales. Levitt and Smith made how many first team appearances, Ampadu had only played for Exeter. Morrell was League One. Likes of Gunter, Bale, Ramsey how many first team appearances had they had? They were picked on potential, we have to eventually make the investment in highly rated players to become our first teasers in 6 years. Sorry my opinion wasn’t valid. I'm not saying that your opinion isn't valid, but if you're going to criticise Coleman for not giving enough young players coming through a chance then yes, your going to need to provide a genuine example of a young player who wasn't given a chance to our detriment to add any weight to your argument. When young players came about who did have potential, like Ben Davies, Jonny Williams, Danny Ward, David Brooks, Ethan Ampadu, Ben Woodburn, Harry Wilson and Tom Lawrence, then Coleman capped them and bedded them in to the side. He also did so with players who didn't quite make the grade either, put did show that they could potentially make it like James Wilson, Jake Taylor, Lee Evans, George Williams, Jazz Richards, Declan John and Lloyd Isgrove. You didn't need to establish yourself playing first team football for long periods of time to get caps under Chris Coleman, he gave many players their first caps at the first opportunity after they'd made their professional debuts (Ampadu, Brooks, Davies, Wilson, Woodburn). If you can't give me an example of who you're criticising him for not picking, then there isn't much of a discussion to be had. Your entitled to an opinion, but it doesn't seem to be based on anything concrete, and I've given you plenty of evidence that suggests otherwise. Coleman held on to Vaughan and Dai Cotts too long.. if I’m being ultra critical. I think Huws should have gone to the Euros. Can’t remember if Lawrence was available. I think it’s a fair opinion to have. If not a touch harsh.
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Post by jbt95 on Nov 7, 2020 20:44:24 GMT
I'm not saying that your opinion isn't valid, but if you're going to criticise Coleman for not giving enough young players coming through a chance then yes, your going to need to provide a genuine example of a young player who wasn't given a chance to our detriment to add any weight to your argument. When young players came about who did have potential, like Ben Davies, Jonny Williams, Danny Ward, David Brooks, Ethan Ampadu, Ben Woodburn, Harry Wilson and Tom Lawrence, then Coleman capped them and bedded them in to the side. He also did so with players who didn't quite make the grade either, put did show that they could potentially make it like James Wilson, Jake Taylor, Lee Evans, George Williams, Jazz Richards, Declan John and Lloyd Isgrove. You didn't need to establish yourself playing first team football for long periods of time to get caps under Chris Coleman, he gave many players their first caps at the first opportunity after they'd made their professional debuts (Ampadu, Brooks, Davies, Wilson, Woodburn). If you can't give me an example of who you're criticising him for not picking, then there isn't much of a discussion to be had. Your entitled to an opinion, but it doesn't seem to be based on anything concrete, and I've given you plenty of evidence that suggests otherwise. Coleman held on to Vaughan and Dai Cotts too long.. if I’m being ultra critical. I think Huws should have gone to the Euros. Can’t remember if Lawrence was available. I think it’s a fair opinion to have. If not a touch harsh. Lawrence was available and went to the pre-tournament training camp. Both Vaughan and Cotterill had contributed in the qualifiers so had no qualms with them going to the tournament.
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Giggs
Nov 7, 2020 22:22:04 GMT
via mobile
Post by marsvolta on Nov 7, 2020 22:22:04 GMT
I think Lawrence picked up a knock before the squad was announced and would have been ruled out for the first half of the tournament (which we probably thought would have been our whole tournament at the time, haha)
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Post by walesgolfmadrid on Nov 7, 2020 23:26:33 GMT
I'm not saying that your opinion isn't valid, but if you're going to criticise Coleman for not giving enough young players coming through a chance then yes, your going to need to provide a genuine example of a young player who wasn't given a chance to our detriment to add any weight to your argument. When young players came about who did have potential, like Ben Davies, Jonny Williams, Danny Ward, David Brooks, Ethan Ampadu, Ben Woodburn, Harry Wilson and Tom Lawrence, then Coleman capped them and bedded them in to the side. He also did so with players who didn't quite make the grade either, put did show that they could potentially make it like James Wilson, Jake Taylor, Lee Evans, George Williams, Jazz Richards, Declan John and Lloyd Isgrove. You didn't need to establish yourself playing first team football for long periods of time to get caps under Chris Coleman, he gave many players their first caps at the first opportunity after they'd made their professional debuts (Ampadu, Brooks, Davies, Wilson, Woodburn). If you can't give me an example of who you're criticising him for not picking, then there isn't much of a discussion to be had. Your entitled to an opinion, but it doesn't seem to be based on anything concrete, and I've given you plenty of evidence that suggests otherwise. Coleman held on to Vaughan and Dai Cotts too long.. if I’m being ultra critical. I think Huws should have gone to the Euros. Can’t remember if Lawrence was available. I think it’s a fair opinion to have. If not a touch harsh. It's a different discussion though to be fair, this discussion is about players with potential not being given an opportunity or a cap for Wales. The examples cited were the likes of Regan Poole and Nathan Broadhead, who weren't good enough, and Rhys Norrington-Davies, Rabbi Matondo, Dan James and the like who weren't nearly ready when Coleman stepped down as manager in November 2017. Lawrence and Huws were given their debuts by Coleman.
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Giggs
Nov 12, 2020 0:05:31 GMT
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Post by conwy10 on Nov 12, 2020 0:05:31 GMT
You’re asking me who I wanted to see 4 years later, I don’t know is the answer, probably saw a few youth ones who I thought should have been involved but can’t remember now. I gave examples off the top of my head but on those poor examples Williams was called into the squad at Stockport and played his first match when he’d joined Swansea and went on to captain Wales. Levitt and Smith made how many first team appearances, Ampadu had only played for Exeter. Morrell was League One. Likes of Gunter, Bale, Ramsey how many first team appearances had they had? They were picked on potential, we have to eventually make the investment in highly rated players to become our first teasers in 6 years. Sorry my opinion wasn’t valid. I'm not saying that your opinion isn't valid, but if you're going to criticise Coleman for not giving enough young players coming through a chance then yes, your going to need to provide a genuine example of a young player who wasn't given a chance to our detriment to add any weight to your argument. When young players came about who did have potential, like Ben Davies, Jonny Williams, Danny Ward, David Brooks, Ethan Ampadu, Ben Woodburn, Harry Wilson and Tom Lawrence, then Coleman capped them and bedded them in to the side. He also did so with players who didn't quite make the grade either, put did show that they could potentially make it like James Wilson, Jake Taylor, Lee Evans, George Williams, Jazz Richards, Declan John and Lloyd Isgrove. You didn't need to establish yourself playing first team football for long periods of time to get caps under Chris Coleman, he gave many players their first caps at the first opportunity after they'd made their professional debuts (Ampadu, Brooks, Davies, Wilson, Woodburn). If you can't give me an example of who you're criticising him for not picking, then there isn't much of a discussion to be had. Your entitled to an opinion, but it doesn't seem to be based on anything concrete, and I've given you plenty of evidence that suggests otherwise. Fair play with a lot of those. Quite a few I’ve missed from memory. I won’t include Ampadu, Brooks or even Wilson though. The first 2 he capped in his final match and didn’t have faith with any to start any matches. Wilson was capped at 16 and ignored for years, I think Giggs showed more faith bringing Wilson back in. Ward as well only played one competitive match for us. The best way I could sum it up would be to look at our squad and under who they got their first appearance.... Toshack - Hennessey, Gunter, Williams, Allen, Ramsey, Bale... 6 Flynn?? - HRK... 1 Coleman - Davies, Lawrence, Joniesta, Chester, Woodburn, Ward, Ampadu 1 cap, Brooks 1 cap, Wilson 1 cap, Lockyer 1 cap... 10... 4 of which only played once. Giggs - Davies, Connor, Neco, Rodon, Mepham, Lawrence, RND, Morell, Smith, Levitt, James, Matondo, Roberts, Moore, Cabango... 15 That will obviously favour Giggs but I personally don’t think the numbers for Coleman are good enough. I’ll be fair to him and judge it on his final match after 5 years to establish his squad. Hennessey, Gunter, Williams, Taylor, King, Allen, Ledley, Ramsey, Vokes - Toshack... 9 Chester, Davies, Woodburn, Brooks, Ampadu, Lawrence... 6 That’s 7 years after Toshack left. He never put his stamp on things like Giggs has or like Toshack did. There can be an argument that he never had the golden generation coming through but I feel being given the opportunity at a young age did wonders for Bale, Gunter, Ramsey, Hennessey. We might not agree on things and that’s fine, opinions will never be the same. I personally just feel he let the pool of players run on empty towards the end and stopped the production line. We are a small nation and whilst there might be no problems with England giving 21, 25, 28 year olds their debut for Wales I think serious questions need to be asked. Why weren’t they nurtured at a younger age, how their potential wasn’t realised earlier. Again just my opinion but we need to be picking the best team to win but at the same time setting up the core of the team in 5 years.
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Giggs
Nov 12, 2020 6:59:44 GMT
Post by walesgolfmadrid on Nov 12, 2020 6:59:44 GMT
I'm not saying that your opinion isn't valid, but if you're going to criticise Coleman for not giving enough young players coming through a chance then yes, your going to need to provide a genuine example of a young player who wasn't given a chance to our detriment to add any weight to your argument. When young players came about who did have potential, like Ben Davies, Jonny Williams, Danny Ward, David Brooks, Ethan Ampadu, Ben Woodburn, Harry Wilson and Tom Lawrence, then Coleman capped them and bedded them in to the side. He also did so with players who didn't quite make the grade either, put did show that they could potentially make it like James Wilson, Jake Taylor, Lee Evans, George Williams, Jazz Richards, Declan John and Lloyd Isgrove. You didn't need to establish yourself playing first team football for long periods of time to get caps under Chris Coleman, he gave many players their first caps at the first opportunity after they'd made their professional debuts (Ampadu, Brooks, Davies, Wilson, Woodburn). If you can't give me an example of who you're criticising him for not picking, then there isn't much of a discussion to be had. Your entitled to an opinion, but it doesn't seem to be based on anything concrete, and I've given you plenty of evidence that suggests otherwise. Fair play with a lot of those. Quite a few I’ve missed from memory. I won’t include Ampadu, Brooks or even Wilson though. The first 2 he capped in his final match and didn’t have faith with any to start any matches. Wilson was capped at 16 and ignored for years, I think Giggs showed more faith bringing Wilson back in. Ward as well only played one competitive match for us. The best way I could sum it up would be to look at our squad and under who they got their first appearance.... Toshack - Hennessey, Gunter, Williams, Allen, Ramsey, Bale... 6 Flynn?? - HRK... 1 Coleman - Davies, Lawrence, Joniesta, Chester, Woodburn, Ward, Ampadu 1 cap, Brooks 1 cap, Wilson 1 cap, Lockyer 1 cap... 10... 4 of which only played once. Giggs - Davies, Connor, Neco, Rodon, Mepham, Lawrence, RND, Morell, Smith, Levitt, James, Matondo, Roberts, Moore, Cabango... 15 That will obviously favour Giggs but I personally don’t think the numbers for Coleman are good enough. I’ll be fair to him and judge it on his final match after 5 years to establish his squad. Hennessey, Gunter, Williams, Taylor, King, Allen, Ledley, Ramsey, Vokes - Toshack... 9 Chester, Davies, Woodburn, Brooks, Ampadu, Lawrence... 6 That’s 7 years after Toshack left. He never put his stamp on things like Giggs has or like Toshack did. There can be an argument that he never had the golden generation coming through but I feel being given the opportunity at a young age did wonders for Bale, Gunter, Ramsey, Hennessey. We might not agree on things and that’s fine, opinions will never be the same. I personally just feel he let the pool of players run on empty towards the end and stopped the production line. We are a small nation and whilst there might be no problems with England giving 21, 25, 28 year olds their debut for Wales I think serious questions need to be asked. Why weren’t they nurtured at a younger age, how their potential wasn’t realised earlier. Again just my opinion but we need to be picking the best team to win but at the same time setting up the core of the team in 5 years. Yeah, I just don't think this discussion can really go further without you naming examples of players that Coleman should have capped but didn't. Yes, in an ideal world, he would have capped more younger players like Giggs has, but he hasn't had as many good young players coming through. Those that did show potential, were all capped, and didn't need to prove themselves at a certain level for any period of time, once they'd played professionally at a decent standard they were in contention. Even players who hadn't played professionally, like Josh Sheehan, got the opportunity to train with the first team under Coleman, they were all being looked at but he just wasn't good enough at that age which is why he never got a game for the Swans, Wales, or a Championship or League 1 club on loan. The opportunities at young ages aren't the only reason why Bale, Gunter, Ramsey and Hennessey have become the players they have, they all had talent beyond that of any player that weren't capped. As for the players he capped once, he had them around the first team at younger ages, and embedded them in to the first team. If he was going on any longer for us, it was clear that he was moving towards giving opportunities to the three boys he subbed on at the same time. He was setting up the core of the team for the next five years. I don't think serious questions need to be asked about when are players are breaking through, I think if anything Welsh players will break through our side at a much younger age then any of the other home nations players. I don't think there's a big concern about when any of our current first team have broken through. Kieffer Moore would be the only example of an older player breaking through, but at 21 he was playing non-league and England C and serious questions don't need to be asked about why we've found him later on his career, it just happens in football.
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Post by allezlesrouges on Nov 12, 2020 11:23:40 GMT
I'm not saying that your opinion isn't valid, but if you're going to criticise Coleman for not giving enough young players coming through a chance then yes, your going to need to provide a genuine example of a young player who wasn't given a chance to our detriment to add any weight to your argument. When young players came about who did have potential, like Ben Davies, Jonny Williams, Danny Ward, David Brooks, Ethan Ampadu, Ben Woodburn, Harry Wilson and Tom Lawrence, then Coleman capped them and bedded them in to the side. He also did so with players who didn't quite make the grade either, put did show that they could potentially make it like James Wilson, Jake Taylor, Lee Evans, George Williams, Jazz Richards, Declan John and Lloyd Isgrove. You didn't need to establish yourself playing first team football for long periods of time to get caps under Chris Coleman, he gave many players their first caps at the first opportunity after they'd made their professional debuts (Ampadu, Brooks, Davies, Wilson, Woodburn). If you can't give me an example of who you're criticising him for not picking, then there isn't much of a discussion to be had. Your entitled to an opinion, but it doesn't seem to be based on anything concrete, and I've given you plenty of evidence that suggests otherwise. Fair play with a lot of those. Quite a few I’ve missed from memory. I won’t include Ampadu, Brooks or even Wilson though. The first 2 he capped in his final match and didn’t have faith with any to start any matches. Wilson was capped at 16 and ignored for years, I think Giggs showed more faith bringing Wilson back in. Ward as well only played one competitive match for us. The best way I could sum it up would be to look at our squad and under who they got their first appearance.... Toshack - Hennessey, Gunter, Williams, Allen, Ramsey, Bale... 6 Flynn?? - HRK... 1 Coleman - Davies, Lawrence, Joniesta, Chester, Woodburn, Ward, Ampadu 1 cap, Brooks 1 cap, Wilson 1 cap, Lockyer 1 cap... 10... 4 of which only played once. Giggs - Davies, Connor, Neco, Rodon, Mepham, Lawrence, RND, Morell, Smith, Levitt, James, Matondo, Roberts, Moore, Cabango... 15 That will obviously favour Giggs but I personally don’t think the numbers for Coleman are good enough. I’ll be fair to him and judge it on his final match after 5 years to establish his squad. Hennessey, Gunter, Williams, Taylor, King, Allen, Ledley, Ramsey, Vokes - Toshack... 9 Chester, Davies, Woodburn, Brooks, Ampadu, Lawrence... 6 That’s 7 years after Toshack left. He never put his stamp on things like Giggs has or like Toshack did. There can be an argument that he never had the golden generation coming through but I feel being given the opportunity at a young age did wonders for Bale, Gunter, Ramsey, Hennessey. We might not agree on things and that’s fine, opinions will never be the same. I personally just feel he let the pool of players run on empty towards the end and stopped the production line. We are a small nation and whilst there might be no problems with England giving 21, 25, 28 year olds their debut for Wales I think serious questions need to be asked. Why weren’t they nurtured at a younger age, how their potential wasn’t realised earlier. Again just my opinion but we need to be picking the best team to win but at the same time setting up the core of the team in 5 years. It just seems like this is a bit of a feelings based argument. You have a feeling that Coleman didn't do enough to promote youth, but you can't quite point to examples where he should have dropped a senior player for a youth player that was ready to come through
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Giggs
Nov 12, 2020 12:57:29 GMT
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Post by dragons on Nov 12, 2020 12:57:29 GMT
Steve Cooper all day long....
Wrexham - Head of youth
Liverpool- Head of Youth
England U21 Manager
Swansea City Manager
His CV is outstanding 100% right man for the job.
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Giggs
Nov 12, 2020 13:23:07 GMT
Post by allezlesrouges on Nov 12, 2020 13:23:07 GMT
Steve Cooper all day long.... Wrexham - Head of youth Liverpool- Head of Youth England U21 Manager Swansea City Manager His CV is outstanding 100% right man for the job. I hate to say it, but i’m Not sure an international manager’s job is much of a step up for him from where he is now and his career has been. Surely if he’s ambitious he’ll be looking to take over a Premier League side & international management where you only play 10 games a year may not be the challenge he’d want. It’s perfect for a manager who is starting their career like Hughes, Speed or Giggs, and managers looking to get a boost in their careers like Coleman, O’Neill or Southgate - but not sure someone in Cooper’s position would want it so much
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