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Giggs
Nov 12, 2020 13:27:35 GMT
Post by erasedcitizen on Nov 12, 2020 13:27:35 GMT
Can we even afford Steve Cooper? I was under the impression we don't pay silly amounts for our managers and for him to leave his Swansea project, he would probably want a hefty sum.
I'll be very surprised if Robert Page isn't manager for the next year or so. No one who's available really sticks out and our model doesn't really allow for poaching managers from clubs in the Championship or above, or anyone who isn't Welsh in fact.
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Giggs
Nov 12, 2020 13:43:23 GMT
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dragons likes this
Post by spiritof16 on Nov 12, 2020 13:43:23 GMT
Steve Cooper all day long.... Wrexham - Head of youth Liverpool- Head of Youth England U21 Manager Swansea City Manager His CV is outstanding 100% right man for the job. It was the u16s and u17s for England, but your point still stands, especially when you consider he won the World Cup with the latter.
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Giggs
Nov 12, 2020 14:00:36 GMT
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Post by conwy10 on Nov 12, 2020 14:00:36 GMT
Fair play with a lot of those. Quite a few I’ve missed from memory. I won’t include Ampadu, Brooks or even Wilson though. The first 2 he capped in his final match and didn’t have faith with any to start any matches. Wilson was capped at 16 and ignored for years, I think Giggs showed more faith bringing Wilson back in. Ward as well only played one competitive match for us. The best way I could sum it up would be to look at our squad and under who they got their first appearance.... Toshack - Hennessey, Gunter, Williams, Allen, Ramsey, Bale... 6 Flynn?? - HRK... 1 Coleman - Davies, Lawrence, Joniesta, Chester, Woodburn, Ward, Ampadu 1 cap, Brooks 1 cap, Wilson 1 cap, Lockyer 1 cap... 10... 4 of which only played once. Giggs - Davies, Connor, Neco, Rodon, Mepham, Lawrence, RND, Morell, Smith, Levitt, James, Matondo, Roberts, Moore, Cabango... 15 That will obviously favour Giggs but I personally don’t think the numbers for Coleman are good enough. I’ll be fair to him and judge it on his final match after 5 years to establish his squad. Hennessey, Gunter, Williams, Taylor, King, Allen, Ledley, Ramsey, Vokes - Toshack... 9 Chester, Davies, Woodburn, Brooks, Ampadu, Lawrence... 6 That’s 7 years after Toshack left. He never put his stamp on things like Giggs has or like Toshack did. There can be an argument that he never had the golden generation coming through but I feel being given the opportunity at a young age did wonders for Bale, Gunter, Ramsey, Hennessey. We might not agree on things and that’s fine, opinions will never be the same. I personally just feel he let the pool of players run on empty towards the end and stopped the production line. We are a small nation and whilst there might be no problems with England giving 21, 25, 28 year olds their debut for Wales I think serious questions need to be asked. Why weren’t they nurtured at a younger age, how their potential wasn’t realised earlier. Again just my opinion but we need to be picking the best team to win but at the same time setting up the core of the team in 5 years. Yeah, I just don't think this discussion can really go further without you naming examples of players that Coleman should have capped but didn't. Yes, in an ideal world, he would have capped more younger players like Giggs has, but he hasn't had as many good young players coming through. Those that did show potential, were all capped, and didn't need to prove themselves at a certain level for any period of time, once they'd played professionally at a decent standard they were in contention. Even players who hadn't played professionally, like Josh Sheehan, got the opportunity to train with the first team under Coleman, they were all being looked at but he just wasn't good enough at that age which is why he never got a game for the Swans, Wales, or a Championship or League 1 club on loan. The opportunities at young ages aren't the only reason why Bale, Gunter, Ramsey and Hennessey have become the players they have, they all had talent beyond that of any player that weren't capped. As for the players he capped once, he had them around the first team at younger ages, and embedded them in to the first team. If he was going on any longer for us, it was clear that he was moving towards giving opportunities to the three boys he subbed on at the same time. He was setting up the core of the team for the next five years. I don't think serious questions need to be asked about when are players are breaking through, I think if anything Welsh players will break through our side at a much younger age then any of the other home nations players. I don't think there's a big concern about when any of our current first team have broken through. Kieffer Moore would be the only example of an older player breaking through, but at 21 he was playing non-league and England C and serious questions don't need to be asked about why we've found him later on his career, it just happens in football. I think experience as a teenager playing against some of the worlds best players, going away to the likes of Poland, Russia, Germany did them wonders. The way the likes of King and Cotterill were chosen over the likes of Huws, Wilson, Brooks, George Williams. The fact I’m not naming examples is to put a balanced argument over because I could say whatever I wanted with hindsight. But I’ll bite why not... I think James should have been selected earlier, I knew he was going to be Premier League level. I would have had Brooks in the team. I think Lockyer should have been called up. There’s a decent striker called Kieffer Moore, why go for Church when we could have bought in Moore? He might be non league but he’s strong, can hold the ball up well, just give him a chance.
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Giggs
Nov 12, 2020 14:08:51 GMT
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Post by marsvolta on Nov 12, 2020 14:08:51 GMT
Can we even afford Steve Cooper? I was under the impression we don't pay silly amounts for our managers and for him to leave his Swansea project, he would probably want a hefty sum. I'll be very surprised if Robert Page isn't manager for the next year or so. No one who's available really sticks out and our model doesn't really allow for poaching managers from clubs in the Championship or above, or anyone who isn't Welsh in fact. Especially as our last(and most successful) manger left for a club in the relegation places in the championship on a one way mission to league 1.
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Giggs
Nov 12, 2020 14:25:43 GMT
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Post by dragons on Nov 12, 2020 14:25:43 GMT
Steve Cooper all day long.... Wrexham - Head of youth Liverpool- Head of Youth England U21 Manager Swansea City Manager His CV is outstanding 100% right man for the job. It was the u16s and u17s for England, but your point still stands, especially when you consider he won the World Cup with the latter.
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Giggs
Nov 12, 2020 14:31:00 GMT
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Post by dragons on Nov 12, 2020 14:31:00 GMT
It was the u16s and u17s for England, but your point still stands, especially when you consider he won the World Cup with the latter. You are right mate,my mistake. But yeah he's still right man for the job. World Cup Winning Manager at any age group is a massive achievement. I believe Steve Cooper was very popular at Liverpool too.
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Post by allezlesrouges on Nov 12, 2020 14:45:58 GMT
Yeah, I just don't think this discussion can really go further without you naming examples of players that Coleman should have capped but didn't. Yes, in an ideal world, he would have capped more younger players like Giggs has, but he hasn't had as many good young players coming through. Those that did show potential, were all capped, and didn't need to prove themselves at a certain level for any period of time, once they'd played professionally at a decent standard they were in contention. Even players who hadn't played professionally, like Josh Sheehan, got the opportunity to train with the first team under Coleman, they were all being looked at but he just wasn't good enough at that age which is why he never got a game for the Swans, Wales, or a Championship or League 1 club on loan. The opportunities at young ages aren't the only reason why Bale, Gunter, Ramsey and Hennessey have become the players they have, they all had talent beyond that of any player that weren't capped. As for the players he capped once, he had them around the first team at younger ages, and embedded them in to the first team. If he was going on any longer for us, it was clear that he was moving towards giving opportunities to the three boys he subbed on at the same time. He was setting up the core of the team for the next five years. I don't think serious questions need to be asked about when are players are breaking through, I think if anything Welsh players will break through our side at a much younger age then any of the other home nations players. I don't think there's a big concern about when any of our current first team have broken through. Kieffer Moore would be the only example of an older player breaking through, but at 21 he was playing non-league and England C and serious questions don't need to be asked about why we've found him later on his career, it just happens in football. I think experience as a teenager playing against some of the worlds best players, going away to the likes of Poland, Russia, Germany did them wonders. The way the likes of King and Cotterill were chosen over the likes of Huws, Wilson, Brooks, George Williams. The fact I’m not naming examples is to put a balanced argument over because I could say whatever I wanted with hindsight. But I’ll bite why not... I think James should have been selected earlier, I knew he was going to be Premier League level. I would have had Brooks in the team. I think Lockyer should have been called up. There’s a decent striker called Kieffer Moore, why go for Church when we could have bought in Moore? He might be non league but he’s strong, can hold the ball up well, just give him a chance. When your criticism of Coleman is that he didn’t call up Kieffer Moore when he was in the non-League over Church, I think it’s clear you are struggling to build an argument Let me ask you this, at the time in 2016 were you out there calling for Kieffer Moore to be in the squad over Church? Had you even heard the name Kieffer Moore? Did you know he was Welsh? I mean as far as i’m aware no one here had even heard of him in 2016. It actually seems absurd that anyone would try and criticise Coleman in hindsight for not calling up a player who none of us had heard of at the time, and would have been a non-league player! Coleman would have been slaughtered for doing that! Hell, Giggs was slaughtered for including him when he was in League One and people on here were saying he’ll never start a game or be seriously involved in the squad, and called a pointless Anglo addition, just imagine Coleman had called him up 2 years previously! I think you need to look back on the past with a bit more objectivity fella! Please have a think about where we were at the time and where players like Brooks, Wilson & James were. It’s so so easy to sit here now and look at the fact they are now Premier League level players and say “Coleman should have picked them”. The reality at the time was however that these players weren’t picked because they weren’t ready - mostly playing youth football. Picking players at the time who were Premier League/Championship regulars was a no brainer & dropping them for youth players who were 16/17/18 and had never played senior football would have been a bad move at the time
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Post by walesgolfmadrid on Nov 12, 2020 16:48:18 GMT
I think experience as a teenager playing against some of the worlds best players, going away to the likes of Poland, Russia, Germany did them wonders. The way the likes of King and Cotterill were chosen over the likes of Huws, Wilson, Brooks, George Williams. The fact I’m not naming examples is to put a balanced argument over because I could say whatever I wanted with hindsight. But I’ll bite why not... I think James should have been selected earlier, I knew he was going to be Premier League level. I would have had Brooks in the team. I think Lockyer should have been called up. There’s a decent striker called Kieffer Moore, why go for Church when we could have bought in Moore? He might be non league but he’s strong, can hold the ball up well, just give him a chance. Yes, gaining experience is great for players with potential, but you've got be at a certain standard to play in those games and for them to be positive experiences. You need to provide an example of a player showing potential, who was able to play at international standard, that Coleman completely ignored and didn't cap. The examples you've provided weren't at that standard at the time. I support the Swans, and whilst Dan has always shown himself to have talent, he just wasn't at that standard when Coleman managed his final game in November 2017. At that stage, he wasn't good enough to be given a minute of football at Shrewsbury Town. He'd never played a minute of professional football and wasn't showing enough for the Swans U23's or Wales U21's to suggest he should be playing for the Welsh first team. Keeping him with the U21's, to gain experience at the level he needed to be playing at, was the right decision and it's proven to be the case. Brooks was capped by Coleman in November 2017, at the first opportunity after his first minutes at League 1 level. He was playing for England U20's in May 2017, the only games in between him declaring for Wales and playing for our first team under Coleman were World Cup Qualifiers which he wasn't ready for, given that he wasn't deemed good enough to play any league minutes at League 1 level. He needed the experience at U21 level, as he wasn't ready for competitive international football, and again it was the right decision for his development. Lockyer was called up. He was called up by Coleman four times, for the games in June, September, October and November 2017 as a 22 year old playing in League 1, and was capped by Coleman in his final game. He got the involvement that was justified. Kieffer Moore was playing National League for Forest Green up until 2017, and got a move to Ipswich in that year, but failed to score a goal in any of his appearances there. He wasn't ready for Championship level at that stage in his career. Kieffer's been given his opportunity at the right time, when he's been ready for the call up. The Kieffer Moore thread on here began in May 2019, and people on here are quick to any eligible players and push for call ups for players more than most, to say he should have been called up in November 2017 has obviously been done with hindsight and isn't something anybody was asking for at the time, and even then it doesn't really fit in with your argument of wanting to call up younger players as Moore was 25 then. If all you've got is that he should have picked Brooks and James for competitive internationals before they were ready to play a minute of League 1 football, and that Kieffer Moore should have been picked before he was ready for Championship football, then it's hardly much of a criticism of Chris Coleman.
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Giggs
Nov 12, 2020 19:35:55 GMT
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Post by holmesdaleultra on Nov 12, 2020 19:35:55 GMT
No replacement will be required.
But Steve Cooper would be the ideal person to take over and he may be able to persuade one of the English kids to play for Wales preferably a striker.
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Giggs
Nov 12, 2020 22:11:28 GMT
Post by pendragon on Nov 12, 2020 22:11:28 GMT
Coleman said to be open to a return if the offer is put back on the table according to an article published today.
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Giggs
Nov 12, 2020 22:25:18 GMT
Post by dai on Nov 12, 2020 22:25:18 GMT
Coleman said to be open to a return if the offer is put back on the table according to an article published today. He's a crafty old bugger isn't he! I loved what Coleman did, I just don't feel he's right this time round.
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Giggs
Nov 12, 2020 22:32:30 GMT
Post by pendragon on Nov 12, 2020 22:32:30 GMT
Coleman said to be open to a return if the offer is put back on the table according to an article published today. He's a crafty old bugger isn't he! I loved what Coleman did, I just don't feel he's right this time round. I get what you mean and I have my reservations - not in terms of his commitment, professionalism and what he's achieved for us etc - but in terms of his conservatism. I must admit, I've not really followed his career much outside of Wales so given his professional record, is he capable of overcoming his pragmatism when the situation demands it? There was evidence that he was prepared to "go for it" during Euro 2016. If he were to seriously be back in the frame, I think this would be absolutely critical to his (and our) prospects going forward.
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Post by dai on Nov 12, 2020 22:38:26 GMT
There was something that just clicked with Coleman and the squad at that time.
If we are to be honest, Coleman isn't a very good manager really, as highlighted by his club managerial career, so I almost feel his years with that Welsh squad was like moment of magic in time. The right squad, the right manager, the connection between fans and players, the marketing campaign.......it just all clicked and fell in place at the right time.
I find it hard to imagine all that happening again!
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Giggs
Nov 12, 2020 22:48:13 GMT
Post by rushy on Nov 12, 2020 22:48:13 GMT
From those mentioned I like Mike Flynn, seems tactically sound, a good motivator and man manager of players, what can he do working with better quality players ? Get someone with international experience alongside him, I'd give him a go.
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Giggs
Nov 12, 2020 22:55:42 GMT
Post by allezlesrouges on Nov 12, 2020 22:55:42 GMT
There was something that just clicked with Coleman and the squad at that time. If we are to be honest, Coleman isn't a very good manager really, as highlighted by his club managerial career, so I almost feel his years with that Welsh squad was like moment of magic in time. The right squad, the right manager, the connection between fans and players, the marketing campaign.......it just all clicked and fell in place at the right time. I find it hard to imagine all that happening again!If he did come back in though, wouldn't the belief & excitement just ramp up a few clicks? The chance of something special happening again. Furthermore, it seems our squad is developing to suit his preferred 3-4-3 formation
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Post by dai on Nov 15, 2020 18:19:30 GMT
I've changed my mind, get Coleman back in, this lot need motivation and a fucking firework up their arses.
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Post by pendragon on Nov 15, 2020 18:39:53 GMT
I've changed my mind, get Coleman back in, this lot need motivation and a fucking firework up their arses. Given the latest article published on him last week, it seems as though he might be waiting in the wings...
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Giggs
Nov 15, 2020 23:23:43 GMT
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Post by quetzal on Nov 15, 2020 23:23:43 GMT
On paper Coleman had a much better team than Giggs. Credit to Giggs for carving out a winning team. Coleman’s Bale and Ramsey were much better players than Giggs Bale and Ramsey. Bale a completely different player. Giggs hasn’t had Joe Allen for a big chunk of games.
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Giggs
Nov 15, 2020 23:52:00 GMT
Post by pendragon on Nov 15, 2020 23:52:00 GMT
I'm not so sure... I'm beginning to revise my views on the matter.
Sure, Coleman had a fit and firing Bale, Ramsey and Allen.
But he hasn't really had an Ampadu or a Brooks.
Those players were only starting to be introduced to the senior team when Coleman was last in charge.
When Coleman was last with us, I do feel that our squad was experiencing something of a stagnation. I recall a consensus on these boards that new players coming through the system were needed to revitalise, and inject pace into the team.
The likes of Brooks, Ampadu and Neco were just not at the developmental stage required, when Coleman was last in charge so we had to rely on the "old guard" who were some way off the pace compared to previous performances at Euro 2016, for instance.
I do wonder how Coleman would utilise the current team at his disposal were he in charge now, and whether he would be quite as pragmatic as he was back in 2017.
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Post by manulike on Nov 19, 2020 17:57:27 GMT
Credit, where its due. Ten youngsters, with more than ten caps
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Giggs
Nov 19, 2020 21:02:50 GMT
Post by pendragon on Nov 19, 2020 21:02:50 GMT
That's pretty impressive tbf.
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Giggs
Nov 19, 2020 22:14:52 GMT
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Post by allezlesrouges on Nov 19, 2020 22:14:52 GMT
For someone with sufficient motivation, how do these numbers compare to some of our leading capped players at equivalent age, let's say 23?
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Post by walesgolfmadrid on Nov 19, 2020 23:14:14 GMT
Caps gained by 23rd birthday:
Chris Gunter - 37 (99) Wayne Hennessey - 23 (94) Neville Southall - 0 (92) Gareth Bale - 33 (87) Ashley Williams - 0 (86) Gary Speed - 11 (85) Craig Bellamy - 14 (78) Joe Ledley - 32 (77) Dean Saunders - 2 (75) Ian Rush - 13 (73) Peter Nicholas - 25 (73)
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Post by impeachabull on Nov 20, 2020 6:52:30 GMT
Sergio Ramos (178 caps for Spain, third most ever) had 22 caps for Spain one day before his 21st birthday. Ampadu has 20 and isn't 21 until next September. Should be on/near 30 by then.
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Giggs
Nov 20, 2020 11:50:34 GMT
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Post by allezlesrouges on Nov 20, 2020 11:50:34 GMT
Sergio Ramos (178 caps for Spain, third most ever) had 22 caps for Spain one day before his 21st birthday. Ampadu has 20 and isn't 21 until next September. Should be on/near 30 by then. Tournament football every 2 years and deep runs into tournaments is why Ramos is so high. Our young lads who play in the tournament will probably also get a high no. of caps for that reason. With the March games (triple header I think?), the tournament, & WCQs at the back end of the year, Ampadu could easily hit 30 caps by the age of 21, which would put him well on course for the record
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Giggs
Nov 20, 2020 15:38:35 GMT
Post by jbt95 on Nov 20, 2020 15:38:35 GMT
Sergio Ramos (178 caps for Spain, third most ever) had 22 caps for Spain one day before his 21st birthday. Ampadu has 20 and isn't 21 until next September. Should be on/near 30 by then. Tournament football every 2 years and deep runs into tournaments is why Ramos is so high. Our young lads who play in the tournament will probably also get a high no. of caps for that reason. With the March games (triple header I think?), the tournament, & WCQs at the back end of the year, Ampadu could easily hit 30 caps by the age of 21, which would put him well on course for the record We will play at least 15 games in 2021 - 10 WCQ (or 8 + 2 friendlies) 2 May/June friendlies pre EURO 3 EURO
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Giggs
Nov 20, 2020 17:04:26 GMT
Post by cogancoronation31 on Nov 20, 2020 17:04:26 GMT
Well done Ethan Ampadu and all the current young guns! Good luck with collecting those caps, game by game!
Congrats too to Rob Page and Albert Stuivenberg, both experienced campaigners, for holding the fort so admirably in the boss's absence.
Which gets us back to the main real dilemma in this thread..... Will RG be back leading us come March 2021, when the senior team plays next?
Does it actually matter that the situation remains 'up in the air' between now and, say, February - given that no game time / no camps feature?
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Giggs
Nov 20, 2020 18:55:23 GMT
Post by dai on Nov 20, 2020 18:55:23 GMT
Well done Ethan Ampadu and all the current young guns! Good luck with collecting those caps, game by game! Congrats too to Rob Page and Albert Stuivenberg, both experienced campaigners, for holding the fort so admirably in the boss's absence. Which gets us back to the main real dilemma in this thread..... Will RG be back leading us come March 2021, when the senior team plays next?Does it actually matter that the situation remains 'up in the air' between now and, say, February - given that no game time / no camps feature? I personally don't think he will, unless he's going to pay off the girl a serious amount of money to keep quiet.
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Giggs
Nov 21, 2020 10:26:16 GMT
Post by pendragon on Nov 21, 2020 10:26:16 GMT
Nah, I don't think he'll be back by then.
As someone else has pointed out, there is now a backlog of cases in the court system due to Covid-19.
Unless the case is fast-tracked, I can't see him back before then and surely, it would be deemed inappropriate to return before the case is resolved.
When this incident came to light, I was extremely concerned with the impact this could have on the team's morale.
Evidently, it doesn't seem to have had any adverse impact on them and it is the mark of professionalism that they've remained focused and have gone on to succeed regardless.
So, at least on that front, we can be reasonably confident that Page and the team will steady the ship regardless!
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Giggs
Nov 21, 2020 12:19:56 GMT
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Post by insertname on Nov 21, 2020 12:19:56 GMT
Isn’t the real question what input is Giggs having? When Page’s mouth moves is it due to Giggs pulling strings?
I’d like to think that Page is just the public face as we were ticking along nicely under Giggs and he is probably the best we have got at this moment in time to direct our progress until after the euros with Page as front of house to keep the pearl clutches from getting on the blower to the FAW’s commercial partners and undermining them on the basis of a bloke who hasn’t been found guilty of anything yet.
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